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Looking for ways to bring the Vampyric community together and coming up with a code of conduct we can all agree upon.
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UMBRAxDExVIR
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19:25:13 Nov 11 2009
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Ave, Greetings my brothers and sisters.

I have been speaking with Stephen Omallie, Rev. Vicutus, Sir Shaolin Macphee and Maven Lore. We have been reaching out to other members of the community.

About how we as a community can come up with a code of conduct we can all agree upon, and ways to enforce them, so we need your thoughts on it.

We have been discussing making a of list of legitimate house holds and covens, and guidelines for each house hold to uphold to get on the list and to remain on the list.

Now hear us out, we are trying to find a way to better our community and protect it from those whom would do it harm.

We have all seen at some point or another were some yahoo who plays the masquerade who takes it too far and end up on the news making us look bad.

We all have a council or something like it in our states and each one has a Keeper of the Veil ( Sheriff )

what is the point in having one and Mradu if they don’t do anything?

I know this works because here in my Halo Septem Civis ( VA ) we enforce the laws we live by and have been doing so for over a year now.

We are looking for way to better our community and keep it safe, we would love to hear your thoughts on what we are trying to do.



Ryu Noctem Aeternus.
Childe of Lord Father Vincent Orion and Mother Lady Saige Orion of the original Clan Sabreooth.
Founder of the House of Noctem Aeternus, Keeper of the Veil and Co-Founder of the court of the Order of the Vampyre and the Halo of Septem Civis.



As my brother Ryu has stated...we need to protect our kind. Now don’t misunderstand, this is not some wild back alley treaty where we conspirte to "rule the world" (I laugh as I type this) this comes from watching a few....what’s the word I’m looking for....oh yeah JERKOFFS who love to get in the news, on the net and any other media and boast and brag " look at me mom I’m a vampyre". We (for the most part) are adults who work and live everyday to better ourselves and our familys. I am proud of who I am, and who I choose to call family. With that said I want to help bring us together as a whole and keep the wolves from our door (the media and mundanes, not the weres....love you furry fukers LOL) . I hope that as the network of true houses and covens grow....so can we as a comunity. All voices in this matter are welcome, but please let’s not nay say, let’s work together.
Much love
Stephen O’mallie
(Insert titles here)



:: Filtering the Illegitimate ::
(an idea)
By: Rev. Vicutus, Dominus de Ordo Sekhemu

Greetz Brethren!

A pressing issue at hand has come to my attention. With so many groups claiming to be chartered by a ruling House or under the auspices of the same, it leads one to wonder if the claims hold any validity.

To weed out groups that do not adhere by certain guidelines, I propose an idea on constructing a list to be kept in each House for reference in receiving visitors and applications for affiliations; simply put, a list of Legitimate Houses Vampyric. Any household not found listed will be considered a “clandestine” group unless identified as being “legitimately independent” since the vampyre community as a whole is a huge mirror broken into thousands of shards.

This list should be for dispensation only and a ‘Committee on Vampyre Education and Service’ needs to be established on who will be maintaining its updates as well as House applications for legitimacy and confirmation of its validity.

This list should also be made available public. In doing so, seekers and members alike will be better informed in the group(s) being considered. Some may question why their own House isn’t recognized.

It is questionable whether a legitimate House should be affiliated with a clandestine group. Masonic Lodges do not allow it. However, a legitimate House may be affiliated with an Independent. So this is open for debate and vote amongst the Elders.

This is simply an idea to be tweaked & toyed around with. -END-


I am vampyric, yes; as to what path I follow (if you’re referring to the caste system), I haven’t bothered to classify myself as any of the three as of yet, simply because I can’t seem to fit directly into a particular one- and on top of that, because I don’t have a House, it would be a bit foolish to try and constrain myself to only one category, when the three paths seem to have been designed moreso to enhance a physical community than individual existence. I look like a counselor, but definitely don’t have excess energy to give away and am not exactly the warm-and-fuzzy counseling sort. I don’t have the unquenchable thirst of a priest, though I enjoy leadership duties and excel in occult practices. I’ve spent several years studying the martial arts, but I’m not a full bodied or aggressive person, as many warriors would be described. (Though I do have a passion for collecting weaponry. Heh.) I’ve been simply following various occultic paths on my own over the years, seeing what works for me and what doesn’t. Black and chaos magick seem to be doing the trick, and as you know, I subscribe to a LaVeyan philosophical system- become your own god, and learn to stand on your own. Be strong and honest with yourself.

Anyway, ego-centered ramblings overwith, here’s my take on your idea- perhaps my blabbing will help a bit, who knows?


We already have a code of conduct: the Black Veil. It may unnecessarily complicate things to create yet another code of conduct, since there are already several different versions of the Black Veil. If the entire community is involved, though- especially important leaders, as you’ve mentioned- I can see a new law system coming into effect. It is important to have a unifying code for the community in order to advance it, and one that’s enforced will only make said code more official and respected- which will, in turn, gain legitimacy for the community. An unenforced honor code can only take us so far- with enforcement, we can avoid having idiots appear on humiliating documentaries in the first place.
I fully agree with your idea that these laws need enforcing. How has your area been dealing with troublemakers? That may help to push the idea forward.

What nags at me most are the criteria for determining what is a legitimate House- the guidelines would have to be loose, non ideal-based, and primarily to do with safety to avoid having accusations of mind-control and an ideological monopoly fly around everywhere. I think a few good ones would be "doesn’t resemble a cult" (i.e. doesn’t make people hand over ridiculous amounts of cash, leave their friends/..families, and stop questioning everything while obeying the leader mindlessly) "doesn’t exploit/abuse non-vampires", and "doesn’t promote illegal activity" (initiating minors, murder, arson... you know. But a House shouldn’t be excluded simply because it accepts and condones blood drinking, provided it’s done safely). If a House is too secretive and belongs to a "clandestine group" as mentioned before, that sends up a warning flag in my mind, so it’s of my personal opinion that it shouldn’t be included- due to risk, and because vampires deserve to be able to know what they’re joining before they join. It could too easily be a cult in disguise.

The site would have to be controlled by someone fairly neutral to avoid accusations of "taking over the vampiric world". If the list becomes a pawn in politics, all kinds of havoc could result. It would definitely be best if it weren’t associated with any particular House, and the individual running it should remain a mystery.

It may also be a good idea to list on the website, in summary, what each House is about- any religious and philosophical affiliations, rank systems, location (obviously), its stance on the Black Veil, and anything else that may be of interest.

Anyway, that’s just my take on the subject. Take it or leave it as you wish; you’re the one with the authority here. I just write things.

Ronin sister Pandora Z




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UpirLikhyj
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19:43:21 Nov 11 2009
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I, personally, see no need for, nor am I "sanguine" of, attempts by some here to establish some additional "Code of Conduct" that also includes language whereby a select few would then be able to have the power to summarily judge and "enforce" (punish) their views upon others without such power.

Despite the martial language and blatant attitude of such used in the above statements, we are not at war here. Additionally, we already have established laws that require mutual respect for one another. That is more than sufficient for an online community (if not all communities real and/or imagined) ... or ought to be.

After all... it has historically always been the case that once those seeking power and military-esque control are able to establish what is and what is not "officially" considered "legitimate," what ends up occurring is that the rights of the many to express themselves and their views fall victim to the dominance of those who were able to so enforce their views as superior to all others.

I, for one, would hate to see such a calamity befall this wonderful community.


- Upir'



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Spettro
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20:03:14 Nov 11 2009
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It seems like what there needs to be is one big council where all the houses, psy and sang a like, have a representative. This way it would seem all the houses are taking part and no one person is trying to take over the vampyre world. The council could provide a list of sin nomine's at meetings. There could be a court for houses to deal with their grievances.

My thing about the black veil is that its just a worthless piece of paper if there is no way of enforcing. If a member can break a rule in one house and run to another, then what's the point.



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DarkTraveler
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20:05:10 Nov 11 2009
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I tread lightly in this thread as this deals with a matter that has the potential to go in a great direction or take an ugly turn as a forum post...

I will say this, It would be great to establish a base of communication within our community which assists with the improvement of our community as a whole. I know there are communities that exist online that do this but as there are many roads to one point, there is always room to improve on a good idea. I do not believe the intentions are to make others feel inferior to a"New Vamp Order" of sorts; but it is a way for all communities to come together under a common bond and make this community a real unified community.

There is no agenda to overthrow and rule all with an iron fist, nor take the already established heirarcy within the community and turn it on its head.

You are right, there is no war but there is nothing wrong with wanting to be organized.
Thats all I'll say for now...



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selective
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20:12:15 Nov 11 2009
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There are other ways..........

If you write a book, everyone will read it, but it must not read like a religion or else no one will follow it.

I myself only have one law, to never kill or take part in any killing. Those that eat meat products have already broken this law.

We are what we consume, and we should never consume death, only life.



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Sinora
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20:23:02 Nov 11 2009
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LordOfNoctemAeternus > I've been following your journal for quite some time now, I see the task you have set yourself as a double edged sword.

The risk of asking folk to adhere to a code of conduct is the creation of a "them and us" split, which may do more harm than good.

However, motive is everything. If you are honest in your intent and purpose and truely wish to offer protection, education and "family" to those who believe as you do then I for one wish you well.





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FireSerpent
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20:26:51 Nov 11 2009
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I don't think coming together is possible for many. For example, there are some psi houses who consider all sang houses and even other psi houses as illegitimate. There is no room for some of us to compromise.

Another thing that comes to mind is perhaps some who start their own houses over time will wind up sooner or later communicating with other more respected house members. It would be hard for them to continue roll playing or annoying the community in some way for much longer.

In fact if they persist long enough they might learn and adopt the standing codes of conduct as well as the communities unsaid ways.

Some will just weed themselves out.



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WindigoWitch
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20:29:43 Nov 11 2009
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i was reading it and like the idea of it ,

i do wonder if this was insteated how would it be put to work on indivduals who choose not to be part of covens or houses but are vamprice would they have to follow the laws and rules, and the ones who are alone who do not like the idea of this would they be forced to follow?

and would this includ the ferals who are more pack like or solitary



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WindigoWitch
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20:52:25 Nov 11 2009
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i for got to add, if it was a opytion to follow some set of rules i would possibly go by,

but if it was said to me you will follow this period i would be like kiss my butt



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Io
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21:02:21 Nov 11 2009
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I like the idea. It would be nice to know when crossing or settling in another's halo or territory. Perhaps include a short "rundown" on customs and traditions for each halo so as to allow for diplomacy-host or gratitude gifts or even just a short introduction visit so on some level our faces are familiar to one another. I have noticed little things can become a big problem of misunderstandings.

I am not so sure the "lists" should be made "public" though. I think they should be inner circle stuff and a need to know thing perhaps. Seekers will ask and they can be pointed to a person who acts as an ombudsman does during military deployments. Sort of a PR guy.

I am sure all houses have their own customs or traditions to show respect and gratitude in a formal manner. It would be embarrassing to take wine to a house that does not imbibe, smoked salmon to a house that is vegetarian, and the same for presenting flowers at a home where an asthmatic resides etc. It would get things off on a wrong foot.

I do not think the lists should be put on a website as it makes us an all too easy target. I think Halo/territory locations and contact info... email would work great for this. Yes it is slower but safe is good too.

An honor system of "threes" could be good here. There should be three in charge of the list any time it is taken out or is in hand. If there are only two it is word against word but if there are three the third is a witness and serves as better accountability. Elect twelve or so representatives (or one from each house as suggested) and have them rotated through randomly grouped in threes and it would be nearly impossible for any three to make ill plans.



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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21:23:50 Nov 11 2009
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What we are trying to do is unify our community with a code of conduct that we all can agree upon, with members from each state coming together to form a grate council so that no one group is the say all end all.
A list with each states laws so that when we go to another state we do not offend anyone.
many people uphold the black veil while others look down on it. we are trying to find one we can all contribute to, so no one feels left out.
I know that is is going to be an uphill battle, but the journey of 1000 miles begins with one step.
as far as the ronin, here in Septem Civis they are told to respect these laws or they are not welcome to our events and it is working.
now to the fact that psi and sang may or may not get along,
in Noctem Aeternus we all feed Different ways, but we respect each others ways because we are all the same in one sense, WE ARE VAMPYRIC and need to come together for the betterment of the community we call home.
As a community we need to enforce our codes of conduct as the mundane do.

this is our way of finding out what our community needs to grow.



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PixieWitch
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21:29:42 Nov 11 2009
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There will never be something we will ALL agree upon.

In order for that to happen you would need everyone's opinion. Good luck with that.

Everyone has different views on things... It is just to broad a subject to try to relate to just one code.

I say it would be impossible.



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BrokenPixie
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21:59:15 Nov 11 2009
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The bible people have the 10 commandments and then they also had a bunch of fiddly work rules and traditions as well didn't they? I know using faiths and religion is a bad example... This can work. We just have to man up and wear big girl panties not and then. Huge undertaking yes. All that big of a deal? I don't think so.



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LadyLust
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23:29:16 Nov 11 2009
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Impossible, most definitely not, hard, most certainly. However this is something to help bring our community together to stop our different views, traditions, beliefs, etc. from separating us. We are a small community, albeit a great one, and cannot afford these lines that some draw between us. The idea was to have a code of conduct that can be agreed upon my all facets of the community and have a way of enforcing those codes. There may be some already in place but if there are no consequences than what stops anyone from breaking these laws? Much like the mundane the majority will stop before stealing because of the law and it's consequences. This by no means was ever thought of as a way to let anyone in particular have control, but to protect those of the blood, like the mundane laws of stealing it's not to punish the guilty but to protect those innocents, the store keepers from losing their businesses and such.

Now for this list, I believe the general idea is good some definite tweaking is in need, but in general a good start to helping bring us together and keep us connected and informed. Made "public" maybe not so good of an idea, but made available to those who know where and how to look maybe.

We are a community of many and need to learn to stand together despite our differences, if the mundane can do it i have no doubt of our capabilities, we need to stop selling ourselves short and look to each other for our future.



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Angelus
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00:31:42 Nov 12 2009
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it upsets me to say this.. but by our own nature we set out to stand apart from the herd and, destroy.

someone mentioned the Bible.
"thou shalt not kill" .. well since the first world war we've had seventy more.

further.. at present they're trying to set doown in Copenhagen, to discuss how best to save the earth.

one country stands in the way of agreement, the way many see it.. give a guess which country it is?



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XTCraver
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03:17:58 Nov 12 2009
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Ya know Ryu, you always message me to read things as I have to leave! But, you know my thoughts on this, I say go for it! Because I know a couple assholes myself that don't know shit about what they are doing that want to make a house (mitch) lol



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Erinyes
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03:21:56 Nov 12 2009
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my thoughts on this is that it is a good idea if the right powers of the community pull together.

what i feel would need to be done is to have (2) sets of guidelines ones for the true sanguine vampires and then one for the psi vampires

i can see having a reprenative of each state so persay there were 5 houses from one state then have it set to where one was the enforcer so to speak

also i think since many houses have thier own guidlines that they can keep them or make some minor changes and use the plan you are working on as a sub refferential guidline that is always there

now i do think it is possible to have this work if all of the community begin to pull together and not pulling apart the reason i say this is much because i more everyday members tearing at eachother as if they were on oposite teams and the truth is we are all in the same community and we need to stick together than pulling apart because that only makes a society weaker,as a group decided on one main goal i see a positive outcome of it giving us strengths in our community

personaly it would be nice to have a universal house index of all the true vampire houses.



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Rabynion
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03:57:29 Nov 12 2009
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Yes, dangerous subject. But does it have to be? What is wrong with gathering opinions on establishing a couple common laws. Yes there are a some set already. I personally feel as though they do not have a particular followers distinction. Seems to me like descent guidelines for all everywhere to follow.
As said before. We strive to separate ourselves from the mundanes, but how it this happening. What is happening that is separating the mundane from the vampyre? I personally can't even answer my own question because I don't see to much going on. Yes lives are lived, families are raised, jobs/careers are held, but I do believe in the good ole saying, "United we stand, divided we fall." I'm not trying to get political or anything, I'm just saying I thing its a good idea to start somewhere to bring a community together a bit more. Even if I were apart of a house I would feel like I'm not doing my part for the community because what community am I trying to help? I cant really see one...
...am I just apart of a house that's trying to help those who want to be independent? If we're all independent and follow our own tweaked codes then we're just going to get farther and farther away from each other. Is this what we want? These are just my thoughts so please don't get mad at me.
This to me brings up something else Lord of Noctum Aeternus mentioned. A list of legitimate havens and independents that are in a sense, "registered" with the community. I feel that this is also a descent idea. I have an identity in America. That in a sense kind of means I'm registered with America. Is it wrong to have A common Vampiric Community to be apart of if you wish/feel so inclined? I don't feel that that would cause a them against us scenario. I think we as individuals are all better than that. After these are all thoughts and suggestions that are only meant to be helpful.



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deepestdesire
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04:30:36 Nov 12 2009
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I agree with traveler on this matter. I do tread on egg shells. So please nobody take any offense or what I say disrespectfully.

I personally feel that this is a great idea to bring unity amoungst the community. Granted there is no war and there are differences but for the community these types of things need to be overlooked. It's not about trying to have "one ruler" not at all.. Something like this has to be a group effort. Yes the black veil is there but it is not just limited for a group but for individuals aswell to follow. That is a tool to help those live safetly and have some ground rules. I think that some are misunderstanding the idea of having "codes of conduct" since this shows to be a group effort those whom choose to be apart of this should put there differences aside and be able to sit down and agree upon a code of conduct that all must follow that is within this order. There needs to be safety and protection for the community because there is enough going against the community. I would like to see this happen and be formed. I see alot of hope in this idea and I know those whom are apart of this order are sincere and noble in there ways.


Hope



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PandoraZel
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05:11:32 Nov 12 2009
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Well, I've already expressed my opinion (see bottom of original post), so to further the conversation, I'd like to add my two cents on potential laws.

I think the following may be wise additions:

1. Don't publicly disgrace vampirism. This means don't feed in public, don't prance around in the town center with fangs and a cape, scaring children and their grandmothers. Try and make yourself look like a reasonable person, especially in a vampiric context. And for crying out loud, don't go on television making us look terrible.
2. Don't attack anyone for blood, or their pets. In fact, don't attack anyone unless it's in a defensive context.
3. Do not do anything illegal in a haven, nor bring in any illegal substance. Keep havens safe.
4. Do not exploit the community for your own gain, at their loss.
5. Do not feed from infected individuals (blood). Do not infect donors. Do not be wantonly unsafe.
6. Do not expose other vampyres.

I'm sure there's more to add to that, and perhaps subtract after some thought and debate, but you get the point.

What it all comes down to is: make our community look good (or at least not bad), and don't be a douche.



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Artume
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06:51:43 Nov 12 2009
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I will decline any response after this post in regards to any community discussions of this nature, as ~Traveler~ has already suggested, a thread of this nature does have the chance of being blown clear out fo the water to keep it subtley.

As far as any type of "code of conduct," I could have sworn that the almighty "Black Veil" was held in high regards according to those who would walk a certain path... Or could this be an attempt for those who would want to establish their own merits amongst the ranks of the politics within the community, but for the sake of what?

As well, it seems as though instigations of "pressing issues" could be taken way out of context in the long run. This could be a forum thread for other community sites such as elder sites, even though it is just an opinionated thread and should not be taken as a be all end all thread by any means.

This type of thread should be administered to elder sites such as the Dark Nations and the VVC (Voice of the Vampire Community)before it hits sites such as this one. For the sake of jumping the gone, as happens on a constant for the past several years.

A comment presented: "to avoid accusations of "taking over the vampiric world". If the list becomes a pawn in politics, all kinds of havoc could result. It would definitely be best if it weren’t associated with any particular House, and the individual running it should remain a mystery."

I agree with in the long run. Though thoughts such as this could be seen as roleplay. Yes, again I used this term loosely. I would clear it up with any and all "in good standing" elders throughout the community before continuing a loop of gossip before anything beneficial happens throughout the community.

As well I have to agree with ~Upir's~ post as well in regards to this paragraph: "I, personally, see no need for, nor am I "sanguine" of, attempts by some here to establish some additional "Code of Conduct" that also includes language whereby a select few would then be able to have the power to summarily judge and "enforce" (punish) their views upon others without such power."

Things could be instigated by trying to either re-build, refresh, renew, or open a new "code of conduct." Seems more like a rebellious act more then anything. This would instigate some sort of "war" amongst the community" in the long run.

We should not see it as an authoritic aspect for any eldership(s) to decide what is right or wrong for any individual who follows any select path(s), follows the leader(s) of any type of community and thus would take dramatics and politics within that community too far, or instigating of any type of rebellious atmosphere in the long run.

What would be any type(s) of benefit(s) for any "code of conduct" re-written? Who would want anything like this to happen out of the blue?

In your opinions, what would make any of you want a new "code of conduct" for the community that you represent?

Again, taking something like this a bit too far and entirely out of context could have negative results as well. It could be seen as another way of either trying to fix what is not broken within the community and or something completely detrimental to the community as a whole lot of people NOT taking the community seriously due to issues of differant "code of conducts" displayed.

What would be the reasoning being creating a new "code of conduct?" This should be the main question.

(Note: This post is not to be considered as an instigative post since we all know how wrong certain key phrases could be taken completely out of context. As well, I post this not as an elder of any community, but as an individual who would question anything that comes out of the community. Remember, common sense in everything throughout life. Who really needs a code of conduct, unless they feel trapped within a community that they do not fully understand.)



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PandoraZel
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07:17:58 Nov 12 2009
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I suppose a few logical reasons would be that there are certain elements of the Black Veil that can't or shouldn't be actively enforced, as they're deeply personal, rather than public, and because there are certain things that are not in the Black Veil that we may wish to enforce.
Though truth be told, if another code comes about, it should probably based upon the Black Veil.



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Erinyes
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10:53:13 Nov 12 2009
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my thoughts are pretty much anything thats published to make money is not something you would want to use or even go by in creating a legit form of guidelines

i recomend staying clear of such things as the veil,codex,vampire bible and truely develop a honest working system from scratch that will seperate the true honest societies from those that are fake and are built only for the gain of their own needs

a system where we all can agree on is something that would be beneficial

i admit i think that everyone should lay down their egos,attitudes and use your mind then it would be possible to come up with such a useful tool.



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Artume
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11:29:41 Nov 12 2009
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(While I admit to declining on responding further to this thread, a topic has come up within a few posts that I do need to respond to.)

The topic as put: "a system where we all can agree on is something that would be beneficial."

This idea would be less then probable in the long run since the community is so completely diverse in its path(s), ways of life, etc. That at no point could it be possible for all within the community to agree upon one source for any type of "code of conduct." Such codes would be deemed as irrelavent in the thick of it since any mature and aged vampire would see their common sense and the act of "governing oneself accordingly" as a be all end all to any solicited "code of conduct."

This was the same arguement/debate that went with the almighty "black veil" when it was first established back in the 90's. Not "all" of one community will agree on any type of guidelines, code of ethics or whathaveyou. Since again, the community is too diverse in its ways to agree on one things alone as standard.

Another statement: "I admit i think that everyone should lay down their egos,attitudes and use your mind then it would be possible to come up with such a useful tool."

Again, for what purpose? To lead? Who are you going to lead and what is the destination? To follow? Who are you following and what is the destination?

Seems as though too many individuals would have fear in their hearts to follow any authority figure that is not governed by government that is not legally established.

For the benefit of the community? benefit of what? What benefits are nessessary for the community in the long run? Those who will be deemed as roleplayers and not taken seriously enough need not worry about benefits, just their own follies. Those who would deem themselves as vampires and follow their selected paths should look into themselves instead of following along with their peers just to "fit in," and grow up already.

The community does not need any type of code or guidelines to feel comfortable or to belong. This in itself is a fear tactic for those who would think that they are to be challenged by an unknown or invisible force. Use your heads.

No one needs a code of conduct except for that little detail called "govern yourselves accordingly." Or unless they are trying to establish themselves into the "higher ranks" within the community... Again, where there are no high ranks to be had. As self dillusion to say the least, to make oneself look better then others, or add self confidence from a betterment of a community?

I seriously would question motives here.



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Nightgame
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14:06:30 Nov 12 2009
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This is becoming a very interesting thread but I do ask everyone to keep their words and tone polite toward each other.

I would also like to add for those who deem the documents already in place to be more than sufficient to the current needs, the authors of the US Constitution thought it to be a complete and totally fitting set of rules but also allowed for the addition of changes to fit the needs of the people living under it. Constitutional amendments are not easily passed but when the need is true, it happens.



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Namir
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*Tries not to laugh*

I am sorry. But seriously. Look at history. Peace and Unity has only been achieved with the tip of a sword. In any and all cultures. Period. Democricy is a failing and corrupt system. I am sorry. But Communisim only works in small towns and Democricy barely works at all. The only way to unite everyone under anything is through shear force of will which is an aggressive act and would make who ever the leader was a dictator. And I have yet to see any leader in any age with the force of will to do such. You are talking of a utpoia and "Utopia" is a humanist ideal. Nature sets the rules. Predator and prey. Our behaviour is ingrained and in all honesty no amount of scientific or spiritual enlightment will really change it. We can make all the codes we want, and set all the laws we want, but we are all going to behave as is according to our nature.



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Erinyes
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14:28:26 Nov 12 2009
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i think nightgame makes a good and valuable point.

and well there are those that will follow such codes and guidelines and then there are those that won't but truely that is up to them at thier own discretion

now getting backon topic after hearing well reading from both sides who agree adn disagree i would be most interested in exactly what will be placed in such a index that will seperate the true from those who are not so true

i would definately have to think that one thing to be added would be along the lines of seperating religion from vampirism.



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dabbler
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15:53:39 Nov 12 2009
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Intent is a key to this matter, is the person, or persons lobbying for amendment to existing protocals attempting to graft said protocals to appear to be legitament after being frowned upon for far and lofty idealism.



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vampirephoenix
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I see a lot of community members forget our past. There was a time where we used force. What happened??? Force only opens the way to rebellion. First Religion should be keep out of this. Second the VVC has already Drawn their lines on the politics of the community. I respect the members of the VVC. But they are intellect not leaders. The VVC will not bother them self's with the Trivia's of politics in the community. They are more worried about What kind of Feeding makes you a Vampire. Who cares... We have people in our community that are stabbing each other in the back because oh.. "We feed from blood. You feed from energy." HELLO. We need to stop our bickering. If the Blacks during their movement was more worried by the darkness of of their skins they would still not be where they are now. It is time we come together. And Stand up and say Damn it.. We are family we share the same needs.

Phoenix Nefarious



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Zom
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16:10:23 Nov 12 2009
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I do not mean to disrespect anybody outthere with my post.

It seems as if, since 'houses' in RL and covens on the internet have their own set of 'rules/code' that the members must agree to follow...

I think the "problem is" not of a 'code of conduct', but a higher 'ranking system of elders'.

It would be more like a 'Vampire Council of Elders', then a code of a conduct. Since we ALL are living on this Eath, it would seem as a "council" would be a better situation then a code of conduct.

Just my thoughts-view on this matter. Thanks For Reading and/or replying.



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Rabynion
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17:27:39 Nov 12 2009
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One posted-
Another statement: "I admit i think that everyone should lay down their egos,attitudes and use your mind then it would be possible to come up with such a useful tool."

Ones responce-
Again, for what purpose? To lead? Who are you going to lead and what is the destination? To follow? Who are you following and what is the destination?

My comment-
The original poster stated his purpose. In a few different posts. His efforts are striving towards having a common ground with a code of conduct. Yes, the Black Veil is meant for this purpose, but some have expressed their thoughts on how it can be descent guidelines for anybody on the planet to follow. So with that alone, why do we say that this Document was specifically composed for the Vampiric Community alone. I think what LordofNoctumAeternus is trying to do, no matter how it happens is to establish a common ground for the VAMPIRIC COMMUNITY to look at as their own. The Black Veil can be implemented by anybody on Earth, no matter what/who you are. The purpose of his article is the suggestion to attempt to get everybody within the community to get on the same page and then going from there. As apposed to everyone having their own codes. Id rather live in in big society who is like minded instead of a million little societies where each individual believes in their own vampiric laws. In order for communities to thrive, there must be a system to follow. Otherwise why do we call it a community?

Also, nothing was said about Leading, or following any one leaders reign over an entire community. There is no destination any one person is trying to lead any followers to. Only some sort of system that can be seen as a vampiric community code of conduct only. Not something that the entire world and every living being within it could follow if they so chose. The Vampiric Community is not the Human community, some are looking for something to separate the two. I'm not trying to turn this into a race battle, but if I can have my life with certain things I look at as something I can follow separate from the man/woman next to me and be just fine, Why cant the Vampiric Community have something that allows us to have a community separate from the mundane? Something that can be call our own. Again, yes, this is what the Black Veil was for, but it doesn't distinguish who its meant to be followed by. Someone in a Communist community wont try to live a life of an American in their own community because they don't have the same guidelines. (leaving what would happen to them if they did, off to the side) Therefore some have purposed the idea of creating something that only the true vampyre is able to follow, something that is impossible for one that is not a true vamp to follow. No one person is trying to gain rank, or establish themselves withing the community, by throwing out suggestions on bringing the community together into one big community. Frankly I'm sick of the Vampiric Community being compared to a mirror broken into a thousand little pieces.

I think the intent behind this thread was lost immediately after it was posted.

Vampirepheonix-
I agree with you. Many talk about how some would follow, and those that wouldn't. Well, like you said, isn't being exiled or punished by the community what used to happen? Obviously, we're not going to make our own jails, juries, and all that. But if the idea of coming up with common knowledge guidelines are being thought about, I think that punishment for those who claim to be apart of the community, yet chose not to follow should be discussed also. BUT NOT HERE!!!!! AND NOT BY US!!!!

Gordon-
You also bring up a good topic for discussion.



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Aronoch
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20:28:43 Nov 12 2009
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I tend to agree with the above stsatement but there needs to be a cleansing so to speak. Remove the Rp's and whant to be's and nonvamp members we have other out lets for them.
Then sit down and decided what to do. To many chefs andy one spoon is you get my meaning. Any help I can be let me know.



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heartofstonecold
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21:26:25 Nov 12 2009
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In reading over this, I agree with vvSoulshroudevv 100%. This should be taken to the elders. This has the potential for some houses to take there veiws to far. We all walk similar paths, but its our own path, none of us are going to agree on everything, Its our nature to do as we wish. I hold the black veil in highest regard, and follow it. Why fix something that isnt broken? Why let those that would use there personal feelings to effect there judgement to dictate which house's or order's that will be reconized? isnt that left of to our current elders? To try to put us all in one catergory is inpossible, I will say, we should all hold respect while dealing with each other, but you cant dictate certain paths and veiws.



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vampirephoenix
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21:36:43 Nov 12 2009
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Problem is this was broken a long time ago. Most of the community came into the community after the Unity was shattered. What happened we few "Old Schoolers " that were left we ran or just went into hiding waiting for the day We all could Embrace each other not for our beliefs. But for what we all are. Vampire. No matter how much you forget or try to hide. We are what we are. I ask you Brothers and Sisters that have been in Waiting. Come forward you know who you are. It's time.



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IhrBlutDivine
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21:47:20 Nov 12 2009
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I am one of those elders, and I am speaking to those elders and it is not to force MY VIEWS AS YOU KEEP SAYING.
but it is to rid the real Vampyric community of its law breakers, posers and those who would cause us harm.
there is no one person who would have all the say, we are trying to come together with all of the states and all of the councils from the states to form a new council. and who are we to say who is who? come on all Vampyres know we know our own....



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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21:51:23 Nov 12 2009
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the above statement was made by me not my wife, now I am not saying I am the end all be all, but I am an elder and I do speak with other elders. and by the by we are working on this together.....



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vampirephoenix
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22:02:05 Nov 12 2009
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I too was one of those Elders. All are our brother, sister, children, wife, husband. I personally will not stand by and let the 20 years I've been in the community. Yes we have our differences. But, we need something to tie us together. The VVC brings our minds together. Why can't this bring our family together again?



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AmiraeMoonspirit
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22:13:07 Nov 12 2009
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I agree that a system needs to be put in place just incase of extremists role players will pop up. This system from my understanding is to snuff out these embers of hope. This is also to make it so that people who break the law in one state will not get away by running to another state. By making a balanced set of rules people arent able to break the law and move to another state and be on a clean slate. They are still law breakers and searched to be caught and tried. This shouldnt be about sang or psi this should be about making sure a persistant person doesnt tear down our community.



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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22:17:20 Nov 12 2009
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yes thats what this is about funny thing look at the word COMMUNITY how can we have a Community without the word UNITY? you can't



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vampirephoenix
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22:58:04 Nov 12 2009
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Exactly It stands for Common Unity. It's a contraction I believe. I'm telling you this I've seen what is coming. If we don't start now there will be very little of a community left in the not so near future. My Brother Lord Ryu and I have in the past had our differences Yes. We may have different beliefs. But as I look at him I see a Great person inside. As I do in all of you. I will stand beside Lord Ryu. But we need you our Family/Community to step up. Help us make this the best we can.



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BathoryBabe
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02:09:46 Nov 13 2009
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I also see some good in this if not so much for the making of a code of conduct that everyone agrees on as that is very hard to do but knowing what laws other communities out there have so when traveling you do know what the rules are and can adhere to them. It is never good to walk into someone else's home and not take off your shoes if they have white carpet they are going to be pissed where you may have brown and not think of it showing up as a bad thing. Just my way of looking at it.



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AmiraeMoonspirit
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02:21:15 Nov 13 2009
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sister that is already suppose to happen your suppose to present yourself when visiting other states. You tell them how long and why and they hand you their rules. This codes of conduct is to stop run aways nothing more nothing less.



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heartofstonecold
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04:03:59 Nov 13 2009
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I dislike posers, and law breakers as most of you do. I just have concerns, it would be a great thing if we could all as you say have unity, be the community , its true we get enough grief from the mundane, to fight amongst ourselves. However, what happens if you have two in the community, that dislike each other, and hold alot of bad blood, that is causing alot of pain, as its pullin at the community? Is it right that say a house be treated poorly, be outcast over this? Just a question, Not trying to be personal, just a question. As, I have a order of my own, with members that are my family, I have a responsibilty to.



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WindigoWitch
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04:37:15 Nov 13 2009
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i got a question what about our nature

i mean some people are made for houses and covens , so they follow rules better but what about the solitry vampire who wishs no part of this , do we force them or allow them as they are?



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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04:57:59 Nov 13 2009
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Greeting to all. First I want to take the time to give thanks to all who have taken time to read and respond to the idea that is being presented. Also please excuse any spelling or grammer problems with this e-mail...I spell like crap and I am really tired...with that said i want to try to address some concerns and questions. I hope to offend no one here and due this with total respect in mind for you all. Here we go.
People have said this sounds like a "power play". Ok I can understand that...but what real power do we have? You can be " lord of the vampyres"...that and a $1.50 will get you on the bus. Respect means so much more. To have the respect of the community is all any one of us can truly ask for.
As for enforcing the "laws"..you are right no one person can do that..and people will do what they will, but if that one person is truly shuned for breaking a set of values we as a community hold true and dear...it may make that person think before that act in such a grievous manor. This also would keep people from screwing up in one place and fleeing to another very hard....because as a community we would be aware of these acts and again "together" work for the betterment of our comunity.
We as a comunity are also varied in our types. Who's a sang, whos a psi, who a lyfstyler. We share a common bound. We should respect each other equally. I know sangs and psi's. They do whats in the nature to do MY hope would be to not only broaden the respect for them..but protect them from the.....Well Jerkoffs who go on TV and tell the world what they do and make it either seem "unsafe" or "crazy". I have close friends who fall on either or both sides of that. They are discrete, and safe...and have a "true beauty" to there calling....why should any person be able to go to the media and make it seem otherwise.
And your are right the black veil is a piece of paper...but the thought and meaning behind it ...its spirit is what is important. We are outcasts for the pure nature of who and what we are. I have always felt that the principles of the veil was to protect us form all sorts of crap. Does anybody who anyone who lost the birth children on the soul principle of them being a vampyre or any other group that we associate with? I do and have seen this injustice to many times. We should not have to live with a fear like that. THe thought behind the veil was to protect us from that type of horror. Coming together as a community ( and we are huge) to agree to protect ourselves from that I feel is beyond important, and something we can all agree on.
This idea is not a one man show...its many people coming together, like minded and free thinkers to bring us ALL together. Thats why this is an open discussion.
Just in the responses I have read..I feel like I have found "lost family" and "new friends". If this discussion can do that...then why not see how many of us can come together. Build bonds, become stronger as a group. Unity is power.
I can take great solace that in lost cities around the USA that i can reach out and find "family"....and likewise be family to someone who is in my city, share a drink, a meal with a person who sees the world as I do.
I believe this idea has merit. I believe it can give us all "power".
This community has always been my place of piece and my passion. I went dormant for a while for my own reasons. I thank from my heart My brother RYU and my family in the AVA for awakening it in me again. I also thank my family who has stood by me through my "quiet time"...I write their names one by one, brother and sister alike...but we'd be here a while reading.
All i can ask is for everyone to try and makes this idea happen. Unite us all.
As this idea grows i think we will have many great ideas come forth....like I said worse comes to worse we all can meet some new people, forge new friendships....I dont see a downside to any of it as long as we respect each other enough to not "bash" on each other and open our minds to a new idea. If anybody wants to talk in private to me about my part in this feel free (vampcop632@aol.com) or Stephen O'MAllie on myspace (same e-mail URL) I look foward to meeting new people and hopefully seeing this idea bloom into something fantastic.
Much Love to you ALL
STephen O'mallie
(insert titles here)



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Rabynion
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05:07:34 Nov 13 2009
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MisstressVampire

You ask what about our nature. Well that's where the idea of an independent comes in. A community can have havens or independents yet still agree upon one common bonding agent.



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Rabynion
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05:08:14 Nov 13 2009
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Please forgive me for the misspelling.



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deepestdesire
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05:18:13 Nov 13 2009
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I agree with nightgame, adarklustforblood, lordryunoctemaeternus, theshinobi, mastermindfaded and all whom are looking at this with an openmind.

These are my personal views and issues on this subject and I mean no disrespect or offense.

now personally I feel that to be able to say you dislike posers and those whom break rules. Interesting... Thats all I can say. We know that story, But thats besides the point.

The communities safety and protection is necessary and to know all halos rules and have the knoweldge that harm will not be done to ones family is very important. Like I have stated before there are many things against the community as it is and petty differences aren't going to make it any better. There has been enough issues of other houses harboring exiles or even better yet exiles starting their own house. How is the community going to protect itself from these individuals if their to worried about psi and sang houses.


Hope



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ps1v4mpv1
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05:19:57 Nov 13 2009
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I think people and houses/covens should teach and adhere to the black veil, yet have their own laws if they desire more. It shouldn't be forced on others. And neither should we try to create a type of vampypre empire. What is it with people and control? Can't we just all get along? lol.



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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05:20:20 Nov 13 2009
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or better yet bad blood because of exiles trying to start their own household



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deepestdesire
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05:24:00 Nov 13 2009
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It's not about having control or creating a vampyric empire. It is a GROUP EFFORT.. And yes Lord Ryu I completely agree.



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Infernalmage
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05:58:16 Nov 13 2009
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I feel, that yes, there is a good that comes from community. At the same time, its all a matter of finding the balance within that community and stimulating the growth.

I find that a house, represents master/teacher of the student seeker, that when the student reaches mastery, there is tension until that student masters the concepts taught and then trains another, and so on. Where houses build, and the continuous mentor student relationship.

With the stress of working a job, with the issues that come from making bill payments, and so forth. Unless the "house" had a place where its membership was under one roof to train and learn with a business the membership ran in order to pay the bills of not only life, but their education, for materials and supplies. The concept of a true house.

If this does not occur, then no house, can really be a house as it would maintain its own needs and the needs of the membership that works and trains under it. Assembling a group with separate jobs, lives, and getting together like a social club, is a exactly that, a social gathering like a potluck block party. Where everyone plays nicely for the time and then moves on back to their lives, playing at lip services for what ever was supposed to be learned.

That being said, to keep those memberships of such clubs, and societies to get together and "adopt" guidelines, should be done with respect to the areas in which they find themselves. Sometimes its not the sane thing to do, applying laws and rules that other cities do to the membership of their guilds and covens. At the same time, even things like the Black Veil, stand the test of time because its in their interpretation. To have a group slinging those "Laws" or what have you, is the same as the SM community shouting Safe, Sane, Consentual as the politically correct way of saying what they do.

Its the same thing. Trying to take something that is only fit for individuals in small communities, and bridge them with other "factions" I have attempted to do it within the pagan communities of the past, bringing covens together under one banner. It works for a time, but everyones path is different. All roads vampires/mages walk, are ultimately their own, and usually the sooner they learn that, the safer their transition will become. Its not so much that they are better left alone, but that when it comes down to it. Places like this forum are the only places which truely act as "covens" by allowing members from all over the world to interact.

And with that said, there are rules here, just as their are rules for the countries in which we live, guidelines by which even the natural world is ordered to follow.

The vampire is that which is supposed to be outside of all of that. Human but demon. The Sumerians, had a view of the world. That the elder gods put law into place for the safety as protection from the demons that lurk outside. But I ask you, should you not treat vampires, the same as you would the lion? Or the Bear? pack animals but solitary. Like Wolves.

So then, to subject Vampire, to even more law, and regulation, aside from "general" codes of conduct for the student and the seeker, assists in making the general whole more politically acceptable. When you get the individual who already has to follow more rules, guidelines, and law in the day to day. When it is the sexual release, it is the emotional release, it is the metaphysical release, the spiritual release to embrace the shadow of ones self that makes them the antinomian soul, that is the vampire.

Its not gonna work out well in the long run. Especially when you have those people like myself, who travel between different cities so often, every few years, never staying to long, and never really diggin into the little hamlets of vampire culture which are like walking into high school discussions, where education on the self, is still in the awakening stages.

There needs to be better education, the books need to actually guide, and there needs to be community before there can be rules to structure it. Particularly when you have people overburdened with rules, and regulations. They need freedom. To many, to be and identify as a vampire is an expression of this freedom.

For others its the need to consume living currents that in "SSC" environment....We are not by nature, safe, and we all and all obey only the laws we cannot get away with violating, why add more? particularly when it would mean being labeled as a pariah in the "social club" we decide to participate in, on our time off from working, stressing, and living our lives in our own ways.



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Artume
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07:08:57 Nov 13 2009
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This post may seem to be instigative in a way, but for those with clear minds and none bias thoughts may see it as a none judgemental point of view in the long run.

This thread appeared to have a common interest slant to it at the beginning, but seems to have turned into some sort of elitist thread.

Most of the posts are from the same House agreeing on one point of view in regards to members of that House having the same points of view and thus are members of a single House. Which is why it seems more of an instigative rebellious act more then anything. A sort of neo fundamentalist point of view, neo politics such as thinking like Republicans vs Democrats. In this light, think of me as an overly spoken Liberal. Not afraid to share his thoughts and opinions no matter how fragile they may seem.

I do not see any reason to stand by one single individual just for the sake of any type of "rebellious" act, or so instigated by those individuals who would seek a change within the community. So what if the community has been dorment for a bit of time, let us say for about a 10 year span or so. This does not mean that more drama mongers would step up to the spotlight and claim to want any new types of activities and or merited concepts within the community. Just take it for what it is worth. If it pans out then good for them, if it does not then don't say that any of them did not try.

Just don't take the drama too far that any type of "war" scenerio would seem speculated to happen. There was and will not be any type of "war." Any talk about war is a roleplay factor. As who would be warring with who? This is laughable in its own right. Since war is a state of democracy where one political leader and or agenda does not pan out and their ideals and or qualities of leading would be called into question and violence would be added into the scenerio. In this case, let the real authorities handle any type of legal dispute within or outside the community.

This paragraph caught my attention: "but it is to rid the real Vampyric community of its law breakers, posers and those who would cause us harm.
there is no one person who would have all the say, we are trying to come together with all of the states and all of the councils from the states to form a new council. and who are we to say who is who? come on all Vampyres know we know our own...."

This is rather unnerving. It would be seen as rebellious in nature, saying that proper authoritical figures should move in and a neo community should be born. As well as a neo council should be created.

This scenerio has been talked about for the last 10 years, and has caused alot of drama within the community. As such, should not be directly spoken about on a site such as this, but should be taken to one of the elder sites and manifested into one of their forums since it has to do community politics.

To rid the community of the poseurs, law breakers, and those who would cause harm cannot happen, even those who would be seen as exiles within any Houses could be seen as decent characters to others. One cannot judge an individual by one sided stories alone. Keep the House dramas within the Houses themselves as they really have little if nothing to do with the community as a whole. Things of this nature would be taken far to seriously and violence would again be a factor where none is needed.

The concept of any new Councils have come up in the past and those who would try to create this or those neo councils would be laughed at, mocked and talked about behind their backs. Then, as always those who did such mockery would take it upon themselves to try on their own to start a new council on their own, or with willing followers and in their place be mocked in the same light as they did earlier on. The proverbial ferris wheel would keep going round and round.

Again, I would not fix what is not broken. As it may be seen as a sign of instigation and neo politics coming into the limelight. At least take it to an elder site or two to see if they agree with a diplomatic take on the concept before bringing it to a site such as this.

This is simple advice from one who has been there and done that on several differant occasions and is used to seeing the same outcome over and over again. Experiance is a matter that needs to be taken into context when it comes to situations such as this, as it may turn into a sort of elitist state. Again, it has happened before, and it will happen again.

If one would look to any type of authority figures, then look to the legal system and no where else for disputes if the subject is fearful for their lives. This is real life people, not a game. Unless you are true vampires that will be living up to a hundred or more years as seen on Trueblood the HBO series, then leave the politics to the Nations Leaders such as Barack Obama and your cities Mayor and Governor.

Areas of conversation such as this is why the community is not taken seriously. There are always those within the community who would show an elitist point of view and think it for the betterment of the community.

The community is doing just fine on its own and needs no instigative new rules, guidelines, laws, amendments or what ever else. Leave these to the real government.



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dabbler
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08:46:37 Nov 13 2009
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I smelt the "inside joke" as well. This thread (lead off with a journal entry load of ripped material, and articles) , and then developed like a coven thread.

It waves.. we "true vampires" want to be able to "lynch" or "smoke out" all those "we" deem less then worthy to profess to be "true vampires".



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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09:01:36 Nov 13 2009
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wrong as always dabbler and SS. it sad that you can not see the post for what it is, you only see what you want it to be about. So far we Have N.O.V.A Gotham, Septem Civis and GA.
and we are trying to get the views of the members of VR.
As far as my house member speaking on the thread it's because they know why we are going forward with this.



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dabbler
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09:08:09 Nov 13 2009
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So tell us, why the intense denouncement of roleplayers.. what does a quote role player end quote lack that a "true vampire" has? a certificate?



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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09:18:46 Nov 13 2009
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ok Dabbler get off of it those in the community know what it means, now I am not going to let this get off of topic, if you have nothing to contribute to this topic please move on..........



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Artume
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09:21:03 Nov 13 2009
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As well, what makes any type of "vampiric" legal system any better then the real time legal system? Are you all so involved with the vampiric sub-culture that you would think yourselves seperate from regular society to set "laws" for yourselves? Do you think that the vampire community is somehow above, or beyond those of regular "human" laws?

Come now...



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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09:25:04 Nov 13 2009
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Look STOP TRYING TO START SOMETHING THE TOPIC IS CLEAR! GET OFF OF THE TRYING TO START DRAMA AND KEEP TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!



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dabbler
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09:28:34 Nov 13 2009
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Even the Hells Angels have a Mission Statement, each chapter has a represenative. What happens alot is clubs attempt to lure the curious in with implications that they are a chapter (which they are not), these clubs are usually confronted by representatives. the Mongols, they kill poser clubs.. but then the Mongols don't have a mission statement either, you do have to TCoB though to be a member.



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Artume
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09:28:43 Nov 13 2009
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The topic is clear and has not changed course.

Your audience is questioning the relevance of the subject matter. It is not a fault to do such questioning as all questions are relevant.

Why get so unnerved by certain point questions? As they are all valid and fair.

Did you not think that all members of the Rave, not nessessarily vampire community members would give their two cents worth? This does not mean that all posts are not welcome. Less retaliation, more answers please. I am sure the audience is more then anticipating them.



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goddesscirce
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09:35:51 Nov 13 2009
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Well, I agree with that and SS you beat me to the punch on this one. I find it ridiculous that a group of people should be so wrapped up in a sub-culture that they deem it appropriate to have seperate laws from the rest of society. talk about role players... I have nothing against "vampire enthusiasts' which is in a sense all any of us are. You can preach all you want about the need to consume blood of feed off of others psychic energy. It's still a bunch of fantasy. Sorry if this offends anyone, but is it really necessary to take things so far as to seperate yourselves from society or to envision yourselves as an entirely different entity. Personally I feel it's a bunch of hogwash.



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Artume
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10:23:49 Nov 13 2009
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What ever the intention, I am sure history will repeat itself as it did with the "black veil" B.S.

As it was, being debated as an actual governing handbook for vampires. Hand book? Really? Since when did the vampire need a "hand book"? Thought it was all instinct??

What ever, dudes.



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goddesscirce
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10:28:29 Nov 13 2009
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What I really want to know is what does the "flavor" of ones penis have to do with any of the opinions stated in this thread. A distasteful and uncalled for remark.



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Erinyes
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10:31:46 Nov 13 2009
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yes the black veil and the codex even the vampire bible i believe was complete b.s purely made for marketing and gains of money but regardless if a good system can be put in place to make something better truely it would be nice to see it happen.



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Artume
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10:38:10 Nov 13 2009
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No comment ~Mastermindedfate~, it will just end up in a derogatory form.

let's just say that no one has any authority over anyone else, unless of course one is a government official and holds office and actually earns a yearly salary. Such as Barack Obama.

Which is my entire point throughout this whole thread.

If someone really needs a handbook (Call it what you will) that deals with vampiric philosophies, then it could be seen as roleplay to a mass of individuals throughout society. Since most do know that the vampire is instinctual and does not need to be "schooled" at how to act accordingly. This is a case for ediquette pure and simple.

Adults know this, why not the learning youth?



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dabbler
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10:45:07 Nov 13 2009
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The consistant dodge that is used against a fixed handbook is that, if we publish it the roleplayers will mimic us, in actuality I suspect that to publish any summary, would subject said publication to scruity, and critique, and that would close loop holes, that unscrupulous individuals use to attract, and fleece the curious.



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Namir
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10:55:53 Nov 13 2009
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Etiquettes and Protocols, Laws and Codes. Created by the few and spoon feed to the many. Who is to say who's law is right and true? And who is to say who's code if right and true? Just because a body holds enough power to enforce thier codes and laws, thier etiquette and protocol does not make it suitable for all within its boundries. Calling something a government does not make it better then calling something a religion.



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Nightrose
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10:57:33 Nov 13 2009
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I believe I understand what is being said here and I will state my opinion below....of course as others have said this is only my opinion and I hope that others will accept this as only mine and not make judgmental comments.

In my opinion I understand what Ryu is hoping for and I believe it is a good idea....I do beleive we should be as one we are all the same but just require different sources. We can still have our own decisions and beliefs but follow some of the same rules. I think that what is mis-understood or maybe not even cared about is that the actions of some do effect what is thought of the vampyric society as a whole and this is unfair. There are some undesirables out there and they give is a bad name in the eyes of outsiders should we all be condemned for them. Whites / Asians / Blacks do not accept this why should we. I think that the rules / codes should be put in place and also the elders or who ever is chosen to make as council should be able to decide what actions are taken. If elders or who ever can be gathered from different states to make up the council then this is even better as all views / beliefs / rules can be considered and taken into account.

One question that I have which maybe quite ridiculous is how far this is stretching geography wise as I am a sole vampire I do not belong to any house and I am in England....I know there is a great majority States wise. I would chose to be part of this if it comes this far.

NightRose



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Artume
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10:58:33 Nov 13 2009
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Thank you, I loved that last post. My point exactly.



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Artume
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10:59:18 Nov 13 2009
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Err, pointing to ~Oki's~ post. Loved the post entirely. As in reference to my last post.



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Artume
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11:09:11 Nov 13 2009
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Not to be rude, but again I am seeing posts that would make one believe that there is another society out there at claims to be beyond the judicial system.

What makes one think that they are above the rest of society, or differant in that they would make their own "laws," in which to live by?

Are we mistaking paths of philosophy for democratic points of view?



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Namir
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11:14:30 Nov 13 2009
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Thank you SS.

And as for the whole "Motives" behind such laws and codes, and the "intentions" in which they are derived. Is not the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Do the ends justify the means? Every "political nation" has been built with "good intentions" and the blood of innocent men, women and children. Even the United States.



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Artume
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11:20:40 Nov 13 2009
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Which again provokes the question: Since when did path philosophy become a judicial system and or professional governing body?



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Namir
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11:23:33 Nov 13 2009
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Oh that one is easy. As soon as someone had enough charisma to manipluate others into believing thier beliefs and enough strength to enforce it upon those who didn't.



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Artume
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11:31:06 Nov 13 2009
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Which in turn borderlines religious idealisms... No offense to those of religious systems.



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Zom
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13:11:52 Nov 13 2009
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Can the Staff PLEASE Shut Down this thread, its getting to be really trashy, like the day time t.v shows.



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Sinora
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14:07:02 Nov 13 2009
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Yes sadly once again one or two people refuse to have their say and be done with it.

Give your opinions by all means, but really guys we only need to read it once...we're not ALL dumb as mud, if you have issues state them clearly...just once is all that's needed.



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PandoraZel
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15:16:43 Nov 13 2009
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1. Who said it's be based on a philosophy, rather than the well-being of the community and its non-exploitation?
2. Perhaps it would be best to come up with a prototype code as an example , to show the community what's in mind- laws like "don't exploit and humiliate the community", rather than something philosophical, like "thou shalt not sanguine feed.". I think more elders would be likely to want the laws to be enforced if they knew vaguely what they were first.



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WindigoWitch
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18:35:37 Nov 13 2009
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i agree some people are going on and on

but some of them are making good points and just want to be answered, or have soem vaild points even if we do not like them or they pose some hard questions

thats my thoughts



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JudasBrood
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19:20:55 Nov 13 2009
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personally i think the rules(Which are really rules but a guideline) in the satanist bibl apply for everything. if u dont know them i suggest researching, srry i didnt have them but i feel if you are that interested you will type a few words and click a few links...



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by LordOfNoctemAeternus on Nov 13 2009  •

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