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(Please forgive me for any typos)

I am Cree and the past few years I have been doing studies with an Elder to be a Healer and Spirit Doctor (No we are NOT Shamans. There is no word in any Indigenous Language for the word "Shaman." This is an imposition from misguided European beliefs that Native people somehow emigrated from Central Asia. ).

My culture believes in doctrine of animism. Animism (from Latin anima, "breath, spirit, life") is the worldview that entities in nature—such as animals, plants, and often even inanimate objects—possess a spiritual essence. We call it manitowak, the Tsimshian, halaayt. My language has a word for "Medicine" but only as it is used in the context of physical healing (haldaaw, meaning to medicate, or ni~lgutxa'ootga, meaning poultice). We see the universe as being composed of multiple layers. Earth was the middle segment. The Lower World (below the Earth). The Supernatural World(the world of the Ancestors above the Earth). Also our God we call Mamawi-ohtawiyimaw, translated means "Father over all".

We believe in Windigo. (I promise I am getting to the point here soon. I just felt it was important to explain some of what we *Cree* are about) Roughly translated, the word ‘Wendigo’ means ‘the evil spirit that devours mankind’. Wendigoag have an insatiable hunger for human flesh - no matter how much flesh they eat, they remain hungry. Legends say that Wendigoag were once human beings.

The first Wendigo is said to have been a warrior who made a deal with the Devil. In order to save his tribe, he gave up his soul, and was transformed into a Wendigo. When peace ensued, there was no need for such a fearsome creature, and the warrior was banished from his tribe, and forced to live as an outcast.

Many years ago an old Cree man was tried for the murder of a Cree woman. Whilst he pleaded guilty to the crime, he defended himself by saying that the woman was on the verge of transforming into a Wendigo, as she was being possessed by the evil spirit. He believes he had to kill her before she murdered other members of the tribe.
Recently my studies have taken me into this area.

I have studied also about SkinWalkers. (skin-walker (yee nahgloshii) is a type of witch who has the ability to turn into an animal) The problem I run into in my cultures is our history in not one that is written in books but passed down through stories from generation to generation and I am wondering if Skin Walkers and Wendigo are not one in the same.

You can do google search on SkinWalkers and there are documented cases where Local Tribal Police are called out on calls and have seen some very strange things.

I would like to know what the community thinks and again it hard for me to post facts on our history as it was not written down. I wonder too if this might also be related to the lure of Werewolves. I know in some cultures they are really believed to exist.

What are your thoughts on this?

Could a Skin-Walker be a Wendigoag that could be a Werewolf?

Do you believe all things have a soul?

Could in my opinion, but I'm no authority, and uneducated on the subject.

I believe all things living have a soul, and since the earth and all things in it live and breathe, and inanimate objects are created thereof, yes, that includes them.

Ah...Wendigos, something very, very familiar to me.

The monster within man, the embodiment of hunger. A tale of caution to prevent survival.

Eat the flesh of man and be "cursed" with an insatiable hunger for human flesh.

You can't really call them cannibals because a cannibal has to be of the same species as their prey and a Wendigo is not of the same species, at least anymore.

It is not a curse, but a gift. What else would you call an ascent from the human condition?

a perpetual hunger is not really a catch, hunger is the most basic of needs, all one needs to do is just eat.

Human equals weakness and the bottom of the food chain, a Wendigo or Windigo as it sometimes called, would be a major step up.

A good native american "legend", but sadly underrated. This is one "story" that should be given its due.

i personally have never seen one only the stories left behind I've also heard that they live long lives as well i suppose its also one of their curses they face

Survival and living a long life is not a curse. Most pathetic diseased ridden meatsacs would beg for another day of life.

they aren't exactly normal and living much longer than what most do is a curse in its own ways not one wants to see their loved ones die before themselves or to suffer more than what they already have although it does depend on the life you have well at least for me i can understand the wendigo to a certain degree

I doubt that, a Wendigo is nothing like how "vampires" are portrayed.

Like a parasitic leech, a vampire need not kill for food, only taking what they need.

A wendigo eats, not drinks so the killing of their prey is a must... therefor "having" family or loved ones is highly unlikely due to their near insatiable hunger and the "moral" view of society.

Also most "tales" of Wendigos have the entities hunting and living alone, outcast from society. They are not pack or social monsters.

In the end only a complete sap would believe outliving companions is a curse. All life ends at some point, some sooner than later. It is the will of nature.

i never said anything about a vampire and i'm well aware of their living conditions its a mere fact that they are not normal humans even though they once were considered one

I agree they are underrated but I do hear stories about them now and then when I go to Pow Wow and there are story tellers.

Legends tell that the very first Wendigo originated when a man fell in love with a woman, who betrayed him. He is said to have cut out her heart in vengeance and then eaten it. His heart then turned to ice, and he became the first Wendigo. The truth of this is unknown, however it is true that a human can become a Wendigo if they ingest a human heart. A magical witch can also be transformed into a Wendigo if slashed by the claws of one.

As for there lifespan, they are not immortal, Wendigo naturally have long lifespans. Some have survived for centuries. This is partly due to the habit of many Wendigo to hibernate, particularly during long and especially cold winters.

The rumors they can live forever in what I have been told by some Elders, is not true. However, we are talking about a myth here.

http://buffymegaxover.wikia.com/wiki/Wendigo

In all my research I would compare them more to a Werewolf then a Vampire. They are said to be affected by a full moon. I sometimes wonder if they are not a Native version of the Werewolf.

Skin-walker is a person with the ability to turn into any animal they desire. They wrap themselves in the skin of the animal they want to become. There is said to be a ritual they go though before they turn and certain words are spoken. There is no where written what these words are as its said to be secret only passed down verbally. They Are Evil (Native) Healers who have crossed lines into invoking evil spirits to do harm on people who know the ritual.

i have to agree with you there i've heard the same thing they live for a long time but aren't considered immortal i find the other research you have done incredible as well but it is the same for me i have only heard stories about them i don't have anything else other than that as well

I was always under the impression that the Wendigo's true power and terror comes specifically from the act of cannibalism and this is the key difference between them and werewolves.
I think a skinwalker would be closer to the concept of a werewolf, although the key difference there is that the werewolf's transformation is not voluntary.

Personally I think they all spawn from the deep human need to be wild and return to the wild despite how incapable of surviving we really are.

Even those long before us, who lived in the thick of the wild, needed fire, weapons, clothing, shelter, protection. We can't cast all of those aside and live off of tooth and nail. We are animal and yet so separated from the animal world. Then sprout stories of those beings who merged those boundaries and became something wholly new and different. I love that. I love that the stories include the grit, blood, and horror of the animal world because it shows our humanity underneath.

I wouldn't put stock in a obvious fanon wiki even if what you are talking about is a "myth".

That depends on how far back you're willing to consider.

Clothes and the ability to create fire had to be invented and discovered first. Before then, Man and their predecessors were born quite bare, weapons is just something that came along later.

It is just like how some primates behave today, they simply adapted and learned to use tools and other "unnatural" means to survive but you are right, mankind has crippled themselves badly, no longer capable of surviving without a crutch. Even society itself is nothing but a crutch. Once upon a time there was no economy nor was it needed but now...you lot can't live without it.

Going back to your Original post there, oral histories do have a habit of being unreliable, not just because the story depends on the memories of the person telling it but whether or not they can be trusted to tell it "truthfully" as humans are not strangers to bias.

But there is another saying about legends, how there is always a drop of truth in it somewhere, though its buried under layers and layers of exaggeration etc.

A lot of werewolf myths come from hollywood rather folklore.
One way to become a werewolf in folklore was to wear a wolf pelt and drink rain water out a wolf's paw print. Another one was simply to be the seventh child I believe.


Wendigos are spirits or incorporeal essences that merge with whomever tastes and consumes human flesh, usually in the areas near and in canada.

It is not possession in the typical sense, the man who is now a wendigo retains his free will, most of his personality. However, what the essence does inflict is an insatiable and craven hunger that is borderline uncontrollable unless one plans ahead.
Some stories tell of heightened attributes which makes sense since as a natural predator of mankind, they would have to be stronger and deadlier than their prey of choice.

Other tales say they are hideous monsters that take on a permanent appearances of someone who is severely starving.

More digging and.... I have located someone who knows the incantation for the Skin-Walker but refuses to speak of it. Which I told him I did not want to know the words; just that there really is the ritual. I respect that. He is Navajo and I did some checking into him and he is the real deal, by that I mean someone who herd the incantation but does not claim to have used it or anything of that sorts. There are community's that believe. That have lived in fear to the point of contacting the Tribal Police who have seen and experienced things that can not be explained. Tell me what you all think about this:

In the Navajo community, witchcraft is viewed with the highest contempt and is a very serious crime. But the most volatile and dangerous of these witches is theyenaldlooshi, which when translated means “with it, he goes on all fours” or “he that walks like an animal.” Also known as the Mai-Coh or Limmikin, it is more commonly known by outsiders as the Skinwalker. These people are witches that shapeshift into animals using magic animal skins. These people are evil to the core, bent on nothing more than destroying the lives of those around them.
Skinwalker is a type of shapeshifting witch that uses enchanted animal hides to initiate a transformation into any animal that they desire, but the most common animal forms taken by the Skinwalker are those of a wolf, a coyote, a fox, a dog, a cougar, a bear, a crow, or an owl. The shape taken by the witch depends on the sort of abilities that it may need for a given period of time. The skins of the wolf, the coyote, the dog, and the fox grant stamina, enhanced senses, and the ability to traverse great distances at speed, while the bear gives great strength, endurance, and formidable claws and teeth. The cougar’s hide bestows speed, grace, and stealth, and the form of the crow and the owl gives keen vision, sharp talons, and the ability to soar through the air without alerting anyone to its presence. The Skinwalker may use its abilities to fight off or escape pursuers, with the power of each animal giving it decisive advantages in a life-or-death situation. It is said that the animal form of the Skinwalker is larger and more powerful than any natural beast. To the Navajo, the Skinwalker is regarded as having a preternatural degree of strength, speed, endurance, agility, and animalistic cunning whilst in animal form, in addition to having human intelligence.

The Skinwalker and most Navajo witches are usually active at night, when they are less likely to be seen and they may conduct their profane rituals in secrecy. These rituals are the Native American equivalent of the European Black Mass, which undoubtedly involves bloodletting, sex, and desecration of religious icons. Navajo witchcraft itself is known as the “Witchery Way,” in which the magic revolves around the use of human corpses in various concoctions that are designed to curse, harm, or even to kill an intended victim. The four basic ways of Navajo witchcraft are “Witchery, Sorcery, Wizardry, and Frenzy.” These ways have no connection to European witchcraft, but are merely additional pieces of Navajo spirituality. According to these beliefs, people must live in harmony with each other and the Earth. It also teaches that there are two types of beings: the Earth People (humans) and the Holy People. These entities are invisible spirit beings that have the ability to either help or harm people.

They perform their dark ceremonial rites, which are blasphemous mockeries of traditional Navajo religious ceremonies. Instead of sprinkling pollen (which is sacred to the Navajo and is used for blessing), the Skinwalkers scatter dust made from the powdered bones of infants in order to curse their victims. The Skinwalkers use bows carved from human shinbones to attack their victims, while the arrows are made of hardwood and tipped with flint (the arrowheads themselves may be cursed). They also make traditional sand paintings using colored ash, upon which the Skinwalkers will spit, urinate, and defecate, profaning and desecrating the religious nature of these paintings, which are usually of their intended victims.

One Source is : Kluckhohn, Clyde. Navajo Witchcraft. Boston, Massachusetts: Beacon Press Books. Copyright ©1944 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College.

In modern times and in some popular culture, Skin-walkers are often mistaken for Werewolves or are otherwise mixed in with werewolf lore. Even Wendigos have occasionally been portrayed as being big hairy beasts rather than the pale, skeletal beings that they are usually described as.

Skin-walkers are noted to transform voluntarily, this trait eventually passed to werewolves in modern fiction too.

As Dakotah said, Skin-walkers can transform into whatever animal they want though they do have preferences, so technically they are shape-shifters. Actually anything that can modify its form no matter how small can be considered a shifter of their shape.

When you said shape-shifters can only take on non-human animal forms, the first thing that went in my head was "someone has been watching too much true blood" lol
Yes, humans are animals, though their hubris and self-importance makes them deny it.

A lot of lore does get mixed up though sometimes they are outright connected to each other, one legend has it that if you die as a werewolf, you will rise as a vampire.

As soon as somebody gets one of these things peer reviewed, I will dive right in. Hell, I'll devour it. Like I said I would love to live in a world where there are intelligent, man-sized, bipedal apes in the woods. I'd like to see some PBS documentary compiling all the new, unimpeachable data and explaining how these mysterious beasts have avoided detection for so long.

Until then: Weird stuff happens in the woods at night, odd sights and sounds and animal visitations. It's inherently spooky, and likely appeals to the primal ancestral fears baked into the evolutionary morphology of our brain. Ghost stories around the camp fire.

Ah the Wendigo, one my favorite legends. A cautionary tale about greed if I am not mistaken. Unfortunately it is not greed that usually kick starts this creature off. A lot of them are the result of starvation and having to cannibalize the dead just to survive but doing so is big no no and you become twisted into living skeletal like creature that only has one thing on its mind....human flesh.

The greed parts comes after the transformation as no matter how much it eats, it is still hungry....sometimes even hungrier and the more it eats the more it wants.

First off Dakota I applaud you in wanting to know more about your First Nation heritage and wanting to be part of that heritage
When living in Alberta especially Calgary and Southern Alberta I had to many friends both full blood First Nation and half breed {word I hate in regards to any one that is mixed blood and in most cases used as a slur for those that have one parent that is Mexican or from S. America or First Nation or Native American}

Now to answer your question I believe a skin walker is more closely related to a were wolf, shape shifter then a wendigo

Have heard stories about skinwalkers from First Nations when attended POW WOWs in Alberta and at Wiccan meetings as I was the only white eyes there {Non First Nation} used to ask questions about their culture after the meetings and sometimes turned out upset that those that attended the meetings knew hardly any stories about their culture

Skin walkers do indeed have more in common with werewolves, especially since I don't hear that many tales of Skinwalkers enjoying a dish of grilled human meat with garlic cloves like a Wendigo would.

Actually some of the origins of werewolves are similar to how some skinwalkers are supposedly able to transform, by wearing the animal's pelt.

In some media skinwalkers transform into wolves, and in others are simply expy of werewolves.

Hybrid, pureblood etc. it does sound petty and I don't think it should matter, blood is blood and it is all the same no matter who it spilt from.
I can understand why some have concerns however, because with the massacres that happened and the continuous increase in population by other races in america, native americans are likely in the minority and so while there is nothing wrong with two human races breeding, it can eventually result in an "extinction" as one side could be bred out given enough generations. I think this is how nearnathels went extinct, breeding with early humans, though its only a factor, not the sole cause.

I heard it takes around or over 2000 people to have a sustainable population without resorting to incest.

Anima means soul I believe and if any of these creatures possessed them then it is sorely tainted, of course as you well know I only believe in the soul in a metaphorical sense, so I give a shrug there.

I actually don't think I have ever seen the Skin-walker portrayed as Witches, which according to some sources is what they are. The movie skinwalkers puts them in lycanthropic shoes but I actually think the Skin-Walker seems to have something in common with the Wendigo in that they are malevolent, rather than neutral.
A Werewolf is just a beast that acts on instinct but a witch that shape-shifts for the purpose of causing harm can be considered truly evil, and a Wendigo can only eat human beings, so they would be compelled to kill and would be evil by their very nature or at the very least, a complete slave to their condition like alcoholics or drug users.
In fact out all three, I would way say the Skin walker is the most malevolent as any evil act they do, it would be out of choice while the other two are cursed.

What they really have in common is that they are said to be shape-shifters, which two of them are usually done involuntarily and that is why it is considered a curse. Skin walkers are able to shift at will and have completely freedom with no known curses on them.

Interestingly, two of them by some legends are caused by demonic or spirtual beings. Werewolves sometimes being attributed to the devil and Windigaog being caused by a disembodied spirit seeking a host. Of course if people believe sorcerers get their powers from an demonic entity then I guess all three have that in common as well.

It is not unusual for different legends to end up crossing with each other, or being merged even. Oral history is unreliable unfortunately so any facts or truth is buried upon layers of layers of different versions of the same story.

Locations seperate them all, Werewolves are european. Windigaog are canadian, from the Algonquian people and Skin walkers are from the Navajo people who were or are now based in Arizona I believe.

Doing some digging, I found that some fictional portrayals can be quite inventive, if wrong. In the comics, A Wendigo cannot cross the border from Canada to another state, that would have been an interesting weakness, similar to how a vampire is not supposed to be able to cross running water, and that is another thing.

Weaknesses.

Werewolves never really had any supernatural weaknesses I believe, that silver stuff came much later and a Wendigo still doesn't have any though I haven't read that much into current fiction versions. Fire is a weakness of most living animals so that doesn't really count, I like how people say vampires are weak to fire when fire by its very nature destroys what it touches so its a given that it will kill things.

I believe all of these to be true. I have been around those that wish to lie to others of their true self and the ones that can not help themselves from what has been done to them. I wish to bring peace to those that I know that have those afflictions and not bring them harm or mal content.

Calling them true is presumptious, there is a reason why they are considered myths, fairytales, folklore and legends. That being said, they say there is a sliver of truth beneath some myths but whatever truth there was, is buried under layers of superstition, lies and/or exaggeration.

Oral history is a good example of a method that eventually distorts truth by having the original teller starting with something that may have been true, only to become increasingly exaggerated and muddled after each generation and with different storytellers. Of course writing things down is no guarantee either as bias and differing point of views can influence the "truth" similar to how they say history is written by the victor.

Vitiosus, let me as you this.

Have you ever seen one face on a person and then seen them in a mirror and they have a completely different one?

What has that got to do with the physical creatures? Sounds like you're describing a trait of demons to me but its not uncommon to hallucinate that, its why a lot of schizos are sectioned because they will attack what they perceive to be demons or people out to get them.

Interesting information here . Not sure about it I'll need to study more about it. But it could be one in the same .

They have crossed lore with each other in movies and television shows etc but they are not the same animal.

They are not one in the same but I can get why some people would think that. Skin-walkers are just people who can use magic to shape-shift and channel that form's power but other than that, they are human.
A Wendigo and Werewolf are no longer human and both are believed to be cursed, but one is more luckier than the other and would only feel the problem at a specific time. A Wendigo is hungry almost all the time, even after a big meal it still thinking about its next one.