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Intent vs. the letter
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Daermon
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02:14:42 Mar 22 2005
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I was wondering on peoples opinions here.....in a court a person is relying on the letter of the law.....exact wordings.....to help them get off on their crimes.....would it be better to rely more on the intent of law instead of the letter of the law?
say a person is a murderer or a child molester......should the possibility of them getting off on a technicality exist...
lots of them walk because someone spelled something wrong...or left some small detail out of the evidence folders....
but on the other hand....say a child is being molested or beaten.....they shoot the molester.....should they even be tried?
or is it a closed book sort of thing....justifiable homicide so to speak?
just wondering on others thoughts on the matter?





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deepredblood
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02:38:30 Mar 22 2005
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I hate to say this..... First everyone has rights here in the USA. When you have someone that has done a crime they are punishable by law. After they go to court and set in front of a jury of there peers. I see it like a big chess game, its a sad way to see it but thats how it is. Now if some person screwed up by not outting somthing in a court file, thats the way it is. Every little thing they put down on paper must be right and ture. There are rules and you cant brake them just so you can give them your own type of justice. Now Lets say I had a child and someone killed my child or anything for that matter. I end up shooting and killing that person...did the law get broken? Yes. Remember the judge is in the court room not on the streets.



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deepredblood
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02:47:56 Mar 22 2005
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***not putting somthing in****



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Daermon
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03:04:31 Mar 22 2005
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I agree the laws are there for a reason....but the question is should the courts be following more to the intent of the laws....than nitpicking over how a name is spelled or other such details....



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Stragella
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03:49:45 Mar 22 2005
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Our courts are way too lax..The Law should be followed by Intent, Purpose and Absolute Upholding first, technicalities, second! Lawyers feed on these so called mistakes to let loose criminals who will commit crimes again! Lets bring back public hanging! *I'll step down off my soapbox now* *grr* subject is one of my pet peeves, why let criminals relax in jail, have doctors, tv, gyms, librarys.. ( oopss got back on the soapbox) After all why create a Law if it does not indeed serve it's purpose, rather pointless, yes? An Eye for an Eye is not such a bad idea...



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HellChildDami
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04:00:47 Mar 22 2005
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I agree Daermon, nit picking over the spelling of a name and what not does seem petty. And should not be a basis as to wither or not a criminal gets away with their crime. But also look at your question this way ...

Intent: noun: an anticipated outcome that is intended or that guides your planned actions

Anticipated: adj: expected hopefully
adj: rightfully expected
verb: regard something as probable or likely

Intended: adj: intentional or planned
adj: future
verb: have in mind as a purpose

Al of these words are based on a possibility / probability .. as none of us know what the future holds .. nor, with out sitting down and asking the law makers specifically what their INTENT was for a specific law, then in a round about way, what you are basically looking at is everyone having a different ideal or opinion as to what the specific INTENT was of a particular law.

And as you can see from the threads on this site alone, there are many, many different opinion or interpretations of what the intent of a specific law would be.



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HellChildDami
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04:06:41 Mar 22 2005
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Oh and one other thing, on the same hand of there being criminals released becasue of some type-o, or misinformation, or things disregarded from a case fill, there are also those imprisoned wrongly for the same reasons ... There's good and bad in every countries penal systems. It's up to the people to make them better.

But lets not turn this into an eye for an eye thread, this is a good question.



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Daermon
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04:20:24 Mar 22 2005
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this is true....I do NOT want this to be an eye for an eye thread...I am looking for intellectual debate on this matter...
I just feel that there are too many loopholes for the lawyers to jump through...
and too many cops doing shoddy detective work....hence the falsely acused.....
maybe we need to make it easier to convict....but harder to get a case to the courts....then the lawyers will have a harder time.....but the police would have to do a better job to get these cases to a court in the first place...
it's a possible course....



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WhiteFlameVamp
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04:20:47 Mar 22 2005
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Your right Dami I think in the present mind that you are reading that and the example you are bringing to your own mind depends on which way you will go. I know that there were several people that wanted to kill my uncle for the courts did nothing. For some of that was partly my fault for I didn't tell anyone for over 8 years. By this time it had already happened again. He molested his own step-daughters. He is out of prison now he did his time. At first I hated him then I thought of how he felt when it happened to him. For now I don't hate him but feel a bit sorry for him for he lost alot. I have a friend that was drinking and was at a party. He lived just accross the lawn (appartments). The guy was also drinking and he went over to his house (my friend went home by this time) walked in. The 2 guys were scuffleling in the kitchen and my friend told him to get his hands off of his throught.(sp). The next everyone knew the kid was stabbed. He turned and walked out saying that he just got stabbed..
Now what would you do if you were in these shoes..
Guess you can call me a fence ridder.. For it depends on what is going on. For I know there are things you don' t know that I do.. So for everyone it depends on what it is.. and how they know the person.. ok I'll shut up now..



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deepredblood
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04:23:41 Mar 22 2005
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I dont think this is turning into a eye for a eye...lol Look I hate it that they get off for little things like that. All they need to do is there job.



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Stragella
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04:37:08 Mar 22 2005
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I'm still standing on my last thought..*the eye for an eye* part.. look at history, when crimes were punished right away and in a way to been seen, there was a lot less crime hence what the mind *sees* the mind believes and learns from..but that infamous last line was only a part of what I said..



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Daermon
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04:44:16 Mar 22 2005
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before people misunderstand...i will clarify...I don't like most cops.....but I greatly respect the uniform.....
the problem is that in dealing with the worst of society all day every day tends to make them either jaded and lazy about the job, or it turn them into zealots who refuse to be open minded and jump at the first possible suspect....
A few years ago I was on the wrong side of the court system and I saw a lot of things that angered me as a tax payer.....
I met guys who had been in remand for weeks waiting to go to court for a parking ticket.....one particular guy spent three days over the weekend for a jaywalking fine.....it costs the province over 300$ a day for food, lodging, and guard salary per inmate.....his fine was 40$
do the math.....they should have let him go with a warning....thus letter of the law winning over intent, in this case anyways



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HellChildDami
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04:57:18 Mar 22 2005
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"maybe we need to make it easier to convict....but harder to get a case to the courts"

the only problem with that statement there Daermon, here in the US the courts are so over run and backed up as it is.

Here's the thing (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong anyone) But basically it's the cops job to investigate the crime, gather the evidence and arrest the perpetrator. Once they've gathered the evidence they hand it over to the DA, who then basically decides that there is or isn't enough evidence to go to court on based on the laws, if it's iffy at best then they send it to the Grand jury and they then decided if there is enough evidence. Once the person is arrested and had their bond hearing then they either post their bond or don't. In which ever case then it's up to the lawyers. The SA or DA then have the job of taking the evidence of proving their case and the defense attorney of disproving it. This is where most of the problems come in. Either the evidence isn't enough or is handled shabbily. Ultimately this is where the case is won or lost, before a judge or a jury (remember a criminal does have the right now to have their case only heard by a judge). Now having said all of that ... the main problem in the judicial system that I see, is that due to the over crowding and the backlog of cases, the SA or DA are left with two choices basically ... let the case sit and wait, or offer a plea bargain. Usually the plea bargain is only a mere fraction of what most states dem the minimal punishment for a particular case. I feel that the intent or even the letter of the law could be followed more closely if there were, yes believe it or not, more lawyers, more judges, more prisons. The only problem with that is lawyers charge way too much, so too many have to rely on public defenders, so here again we go in a vicious circle of the PD also working to make a deal rather then actually try the cases. This is why there are so many criminals either who walk or serve little time for the crime, and end up committing the crime again or a different crime, so they end up right back in the system. The over crowding never goes down, crime doesn't drop, and the victims rise ...

Am I making any sense here??? It all becomes one vicious circle



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Daermon
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05:23:09 Mar 22 2005
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you make a very valid and great argument
but one problem I see is that the cops themselves are doing shoddy detecting....
many once they find a possible suspect stop looking at alternate suspects and tend to get tunnel vision regarding their first pick......to the point that many cops have even been caught fabricating evidence when they couldn't find it the proper way.....and when they get caught their reprimand is usually tiny or even nonexistent....for example the mounties who fabricated info against Jason Dix in canada...he spent years behing bars for double homicide.....eventually it came to light that the evidence was falsified.....the officers in question SHOULD have ended up in jail for what they did...they destroyed a decade of this mans life....all because they got tunnel vision on him as their suspect when there were other options.....
but I think the worse any of the officers got was a demotion and a few on the case who were no longer on the force....they got nothing.....
no punishment for their malicious prosecution.....
granted Mr. dix was no angel by any strech....he was a repeat offender....but innocent of the crimes he did years for....
he would never have been convicted had the police done their jobs in proper manner....
but i do agree that we need more judges....
but we also need an imroved system...
but i'll leave that one for those with more knowledge than I have of the situation.



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Morrigon
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06:09:58 Mar 22 2005
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You know, I'm not exactly sure what should be changed. I would have to look further into the wierd loopholes and such. However, I think it is just another one of those things where we should just take a step back, and look at what's going on you know? Actually question fully what should be changed.



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HellChildDami
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06:43:27 Mar 22 2005
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That's just it Morrigon for five years now I have lived on the outside as one trying to get through the system to overturn a conviction of guilt on someone innocent of the crimes they are being punished for. I've seen where some4 (granted not all) the problems are, at least for the family trying to help their loved one.

The biggest problem is that it's not just the police being how they are in the case that Daermon describes, which I do agree to a point, there are SOME officers who basically get burn out. Not all though, I do know many officers even after years and years on the force still are as fresh as they were when they first joined. It's sad to see though when someone is falsly accused for a crime because SOMEONE, not just officers didn't do their job or made short cuts.



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Thera
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07:50:48 Mar 22 2005
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Its really hard to say.....But sometimes I wud rather choose to put him in the prison or so, then let him go freely and do his crimes again.



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Echo
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12:03:25 Mar 22 2005
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I think its stupid that minor mistakes or technicalities forged by uman error should have such a predominant effect on the law. I also think the reason we need law in the first place is not only to control and force a type of uniformaed morality on all people, but because their are too sides to everything. I think it is this fight between whats really wrong in someones eyes that forces the search for minor techicalities.



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xtroublex
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14:28:28 Mar 22 2005
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A life for a life. If people are caught messing with kids it sould be the same. If someone is that sick minded they should have no rights.



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Echo
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17:03:05 Mar 22 2005
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This depends purely on the crime though. How about euthenasia? Is that a life for a life?



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xtroublex
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20:56:22 Mar 22 2005
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Ok with some allowences.



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Alassiel
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03:20:07 Mar 23 2005
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hello darling. Just thought i'd put my two cents in. I am of two opinions. I don’t think that we should follow the letter of the law because a lot of nasty people get off on a small technicality but most of those people meet their deserved fate in some form or another. What I find would throw this idea of not following it to the letter would be if someone is definitely NOT guilty but all evidence found only points at them. The only chance they have at not being wrongly convicted is a technicality. How many people who have been given the chair or the needle over the years are actually guilty? If the world was black and white and everyone who definitely guilty goes to trial then yes I believe the letter of the law system is overrated. And even if they are found guilty, the sentencing is a joke. This was in the papers a few months ago, an aboriginal woman who brutally murdered another woman was given 18 months in jail- 6 on good behaviour. A woman who get done for tax evasion gets 4 years with out bail. Justice? Surely not.



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Daermon
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04:48:47 Mar 23 2005
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I totally agree that the punishment needs to start fitting the crime....
it is disgusting that people who owe money go away for longer than people who are actually dangeorous
I winessed this myself a few years ago while in trouble for a few things.....
there were people in jail that were there for fines who did more time than a guy who was there for multiple counts of viscious assault



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LadyDarque
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17:39:03 Mar 23 2005
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Is justice ever really served?
Two wrongs don't make a right.


Now I call that "adding my two cents.." ;)



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Khayman
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21:56:01 Mar 23 2005
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All they need to do is there job.


Tell that to an attorney who has to turn down a child abuse case for work load reasons.
Not to mention tell that to the cop who's working ten child abuse cases and then goes home and tucks his kids in ever night.


=====================

A life for a life. If people are caught messing with kids it sould be the same. If someone is that sick minded they should have no rights.


Sick minded people always have rights untill they act on those thoughts. Then it is the states job to define the terms "sick" and "illegal".
That was also not the best analogy you could have used there, Vampyric666.
No child deserves to be molested or abused. You made that sound like if you abused my kids your kids should be abused in turn.
Tell a five year old thats fair and see what you come up with 10 years later when he lays out half the lunch room with a Tech 9.

O_o



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deepredblood
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01:56:16 Mar 24 2005
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I really hate talkig about things like this. The thing is I dont like how anyone gets away with things they do as much as you. Some of the things that people do to others or kids are sick. The fact is everyone has rights! The only right you can take away from them is there freedom or put then to death. Also you may not think it but they have rights inside jail as well. When they are inside jail you are there baby setter.



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Devilman2
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03:23:01 Mar 24 2005
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In this day and age I believe it's only rong if you get caught, as with child molesters, beaters , abusers there should be no tolerance, How can you physicaly, mentally abuse something that is so fragile and innocent it's acrime that deserves life in a federal ass pounding prison.



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Khayman
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14:38:21 Mar 24 2005
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Generally is child abusers are caught and put in prison.. an ass pounding is exactly what they get. The rest of gen. pop. may be murderers, thieves and the likes... they find one of the 'residents' there is a child abuser in ANY form.... they're in for a long haul...



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Daermon
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04:40:06 Mar 25 2005
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heres a thought....any here know firsthand about the inside of the bars.....
or is this all just from what you have heard....i'll wait a few responses till I comment further.....



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ForbiddenRed
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08:42:25 Mar 25 2005
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i believe that there are extenuating(?) circumstances for the crime and the punishment. but everything would have to be taken into an account and highly adn xtremely thoroughly went thru.



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Devilman2
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09:30:40 Mar 25 2005
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I've done 6 months in intensive inpatiant, or crazy ward, and two months in Indianapolis (marion county jail) I'd rather go back to jail, At least they don't feed you a shit load of pills that make you stare from the inside/ to outside as you watch yourself become a zombie, When you can't think about God, devil, sex, or hunger your in hell, Numbness and not feeling is the worst of all feelings, Although I have never been in a fed pen(nocks on wood) from what I understand it's insanity! I'd rather die because once you go in I doubt you come out the same, or for better. Prison should be for murders and petafiles, theives, even though I don't kindon it I think they should create a program to give to a certain community while trying to better them selves, besides The only big theives I know of is the mob, and government, o sorry and police for the marority(meaning not all of them) but most LOL!



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HellChildDami
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I've not been inside a prison except in the visitation room for five years ... almost every week .. driving 6 to 8 hours, to sit there for 6 hours, only to drive another 6 to 8 hours home. Sitting there not being able to touch, hold hands, kiss, or hug, except when I would first arrive, and when I left. I have seen literally 1000's of wives, girlfriends, mother's, father's, sister's, brother's, son's and daughter's go through the same emotions I went through. The same thoughts. I heard the stories, of men having their heads busted open with locks stuck in socks, the shanks made from sharpened tooth brushes, and plastic forks and knives. One prison even had a display case of all the shanks and other hand made weapons they collected. I've seen first hand the damage these have caused. I've seen men so over medicated just to stay sane enough to serve one day to the next. I've seen men who were permanently brain damaged from having their head beaten so badly, they almost died, one man was even at the visitation picking half eaten food out of the garbage can, that's how much of his mind he lost. I know of a man being pushed off the top of a building while he was working, he lived I think a week, then died. And I sat there hour after hour while my husband poured his heart out, sharing his fears of waking up in the middle of the night at every little sound, of nights he was afraid to even close his eyes. I’ve heard in graphic detail fights that broke out over something as simple as a card game. I could go on and on, and while no I can’t say that I ever actually was the one to experience it physically, when you are connected to someone, when you have given them your heart and soul and you have chosen to share your life with them, and what they must go through, you become a part of them, you feel and experience these things right along with them. While he’s laying awake at night cringing at ever little sound, trying to think of himself at home in a better place; you’re laying 400 miles away, wide awake, cringing at ever sound, thinking of everything that could possibly go wrong, of all the harm that could befall them. It’s amazing how strong your faith truly does become, because in the end, as a person on the outside, that is all you have, you have to have faith that they will make it through each night, and each day. You, the outside person become just as much a prisoner as the inmate himself. And no it’s not something you HAVE to do; you do it because you love them. I could say a lot more, but I won’t because most peoples views of a person who is charged of a crime, is that they are guilty because they were convicted. And that they deserve what ever they get. But as I have said before, and I will stand by what I say, not all are guilty.



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deepredblood
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14:20:23 Mar 25 2005
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I have worked inside the jail and no not as a resident. Before you leave your home and go to work at the jail any feelings you have for the "resident's" stay at home. The job is not to judge them that has already been done. I have to say it is hard to do at times but it has to be done. You end up being a baby setter for them when they are in jail. Now if something happens to them when they are they(beatings,hangings,ect.)Your ass is on the line as if it was your child in daycare! Also they have some rights when they are in jail and if I screw with any of there rights I will be in front of a judge. I have worked with officers that had to deal with a person who raped there child in the jail. When you get in your car and start to go to work at the jail you have to switch off all your feelings and do the job.



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Khayman
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14:27:22 Mar 25 2005
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My father was a death row guard at Mansfield State Pen. for several years. *I*... have never been in jail. Or prison... or a looney bin...
Isa good girl... well.. good at not getting caught anyway >:)



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mslefaye
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04:05:10 Mar 31 2005
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Oft times the letter of the law is ignored when it suits a political career of the judge......

that is all i will say on the matter



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Daermon
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05:08:23 Mar 31 2005
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k the reason I asked about who actually knows is I have had the experience....
and it's a need to know basis....and 99.9% of you don't need to know....
but a lot of the comments seemed to me to be the myths about jail....not how it really is...in actuality.....it is little better than a mildly violent warehouse....
and the violence only catches up with you if you have actively pissed someone off...
I was there for 9 months...and only had one problem.....
BUt I know how to keep to myself.....
it's called "doing your OWN time"
that and a bit of psych knowledge...will keep you safe...depending what you are in for of course....the guards were far more dangerous and agressive than the majority of the inmates.....some were good....but about half the guards ought to have been inmates....
my suggestion....stay out of jail...you prolly wouldn't like it.... I didn't



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MistressofBeltainne
MistressofBeltainne
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09:23:58 Mar 31 2005
Read 752 times

Very interesting debate... deepredblood has some good points....



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Daermon
Daermon
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05:45:39 Apr 03 2005
Read 743 times

bump...too many rips on front page



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mslefaye
mslefaye
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23:58:50 Apr 03 2005
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try three in solitary
*for your own physical safety*
23 hours of darkness
is not conductive to more than inhumanity



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Empress
Empress

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00:08:55 Apr 04 2005
Read 735 times

Thats very much a double edged sword.



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Daermon
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03:20:29 Apr 04 2005
Read 730 times

yes solitary in the us ought to be labeled as inhumane....in canada solitary is just that...you have a blanket, a cot,and a bible to read....but it is far worse in the states....they seriously need to look up the term human rights...



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mslefaye
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11:55:48 Apr 04 2005
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it has repeatedly been found to be cruel and unusual punishment
but it is all okay when they call it for the persons personal safetly
once they call it that they can lock you in the closet if they feel like it and no one is going to nay say except a few of those locked in said closets or those trying to make money off the poor saps in the closets



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Khayman
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19:53:12 Apr 06 2005
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Generally, and this is the way its supposed to go, one is locked in solitary confinement for safety of gen pop. or because of repeated offenses.

The prisoners know what the punishments will be for their crimes while commited in incarceration.
If they landed there due to proven attacks on inmates or repeated violence or attpemts there of... attempts of escape or other violations...
Thats where they land.
Tough shit.

And yes... Ive been there.



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Arvalin
Arvalin
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19:58:28 Apr 06 2005
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I think that who does the crime such as murder..etc. should have the same thing done to them. I am for PUBLIC EXECUTION. It would make a difference...no??



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Khayman
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19:59:32 Apr 06 2005
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And no... Im not explaining how "Ive been there".



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Stragella
Stragella
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03:01:30 Apr 07 2005
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I'm with Arvlin



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Daermon
Daermon
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04:22:47 Apr 07 2005
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yes khay..that is how it is supposed to happen....but frequently not how it does happen.....
unfortunately....the level of corruption in jails is abnormally high
there are many guards who are little better than the inmates the are supposed to be protecting people from



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Thera
Thera

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07:23:34 Apr 07 2005
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I agree with you Daermon...Its just like u said.



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Khayman
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15:20:22 Apr 07 2005
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I agree. There are very few decent men left to guard them.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by TheRat on Oct 04 2010  •

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