The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

To those who practice the arts,

How long should it take to tell someone about the workings of the cosmos, as observed from one point of view, outlining cosmology, astrology, energy points, energy patterns, elemental properties, conceptual ideas as the causation of events?

Personally I feel that the more a new soul has access to the techniques, this knowledge and information, the faster they can cut through the mountains of dogma that coat it with different layers of garbage on each path. If one is going to learn, then learn it how it was 10000 years ago, it works just the same today, why coat it with new age symbolism, when the original stuff works just fine?

Any thoughts on this would be most helpful. Thank you.

I happen to agree. I think that when you mix it with something of todays world you just get lies mixed up with truth. Although people tend to discover new things through putting different things together but I think the originals work much better. Or perhaps creating something of your own design that does not involve either, just the know how of all the sources available. -shrugs-

I think the ancients had a great thing until people currupted it with their nonsense and then changed the stories and twisted lies with truth. Personally, I think that the old ways are better then the things now a days because it came from people who knew about the things they practiced while people today only practice things that seem to be of some religion. Which I believe if one is going to practice something like magic and what not that they should go with something that is not related as religion tends to cloud the truth.

But thats just me.

Has there ever been an easy path to magic? The powerful mysteries of material and spiritual progress have always been kept at a great distance from the greedy and the unworthy. Writers have always veiled their directions behind a tangled code of symbols - the dragon, the king, the king's son, the grey wolf, the lepers, the lion and the unicorn, and many more. Look at any magic book and you'll find the symbolism lays a heavy burden on those who attempt it.

If knoweldge is power, then to know would be to have the kingdom of heaven at your command.

IF you had lists of correspondences, lists of laws by which things operate, you could spend a lifetime trying to disprove them, and only lying to yourself. I would give the masses the information. I would let them see it for their own eyes, so that that foggy veil of stupid parts for just a minute. However it is useless telling one about anything that people do not experience themselves. But if one makes the path clear, unshrouds the "mysteries" then wouldn't life be a whole bunch better for all those would be mages, and the idiot children who run around with the latest copy of neopaganism for dummies, chanting funny poetry and gothic prose hoping to change the world with "their" magickal spiritualism?....

If these were then made available. What then? what would be left? I am rather curious to find out....

My personal opinion is that if you have accepted the burden of teaching someone, it is your responsibility to teach them fully and to the best of your abilities, while keeping their abilities and limits, strengths and weaknesses in mind. There is no point in teaching someone things that will warp or destroy their sense of self, for example. Information overload too soon will cost you your pupil, and then you will be back where you started. So, while I agree that you should teach all you can, I don't agree that it should all be taught as soon as possible.

If a teacher can't teach, then how can the learner learn? its like writing a book, if u can not inform then why write?

But if they had the presence of mind, when you give them the exact answers to their questions, and then you tell them to keep their notes that you have given them, which you have come by, and then you send them off on their way to try to prove or disprove of their own volition.

You cannot inspire someone to learn, you cannot make them accept. But if the spark was their, if you can instill a lust for knowldege, and give them the names for they would otherwise fear, then would it be benificial to see how they develop from the points that your notes leave off.

The cyclical nature of things, means that the pendulum swing manifests in all things. Rhythm compensates, so you there by give them the tools to not feel alienated by their studies, they then go off seeking to prove you wrong, and illuminate themselves to their own deity and sense of self, then in the process have gotten to know themselves, faced down their demons, and learned the very thing they were trying to disprove to begin with? That is of course if they play the advocate,

If they accept what you are saying, without question, then they need to feel it, taste it, smell it, live it. They need to take the basics, and then use them to link the correspondences to make their own inscense to fill the room, so they themselves intone the words of power to stir the very primal spirit of their souls. To which they themselves are only made aware of by their personal act of doing, thus walking the path best suited for them, after they have all available information, which you have provided, so they do not need to spend unnessicary years wasting away on the basics, but can build on said constructs and take it to even more amazing levels.

Either way, they learn; they learn the magick, they learn the laws, they learn the method, most importantly they know themselves, and can be firm in any choice they make. If they play the unceasing role of the sad advocate who disbelieves only because they seek to have it so bad be true in their hearts, they fill themselves with doubt, fear and hatred, because they seek to prove wrong, what isn't wrong, because they are afraid to let themselves experience what is true, because it isn't accepted....but if the answers were known, wouldn't it then be acceptable, allowing open study and an open forum on the situation, thereby allowing even the advocated role satisfaction, that they are not alone in their quest to prove wrong, every irrefutable proof? That magick works and changes the environment in accordence with ones will by the means of observed process. Which when not followed, the work becomes a failure? However if followed, the work becomes a sucess. It is the hypocracy of man, that one should disprove, what he thinks needs be disproved, while secretly longing for it not to be disproved, and becomes horrified when what he thought to be a lie, really wasn't.....i think it paints a fairly accurat picture of the modern man. And I would as I said, be interested to see what people do with such information.

I suppose that one could make up their own things based upon their intent. Alot of things back then were based off someones work in their spiritualism so I don't see why someone elses wouldn't also do the same. I believe that there is no one true path to magic and a way to practice it.

It depends on if the individual who is creating really believes in the words he or she makes. Yes, I suppose that many things that are from the old ways are stronger, but this is because it is not only backed up by their users but by those who made them. No matter what a person may create those words they put emotion into have power reguardless of if it is of origionals even though that the origional writings maybe better for spells.



As for knowing the rest, I suppose there are some who deserve to know and some who do not. But I would think that those who do would seek those answers out them selves.

If your teaching...then I feel only to use your best judgement on if that individual should or should not know depending on how you see their seriousness. Some things...are better off not said. As many of us I am sure have felt at one time or more. I think if you wonder about if you should teach it, you should trust your intuition on if you think that person should know, you will feel it if they should.


I must say though, your very interesting, Infernal. More so then most I come across. Chatting with you about these things are very insighting.

I am glad you have risen to the challenges I post. And you have met them well.

As for me teaching, its merely providing a means. Unbiased fact which I have broken down from all the wasted words of the old tradions, cutting out and removing their safegaurds to the soul. Providing a direct means to get the knowledge of the basic 6 laws of magick, the planes of existence, the chaos system of persona/archetypes, the kabala, Qlipoth, the Taoist elements, the western elements. Middle pillar rituals, and examples of each. In this, it sums up, with no opnion of my own, anything. It provides the guide by which the seeker may follow.

Let the wiccans have their lord and lady, let the satanist believe not in the god they follow but in their own egos, waisting away their potential. The catholics have their guilt and misery, and the jews their meditations on the alphabet. The taoist sit and dwell upon the nothingness of life, Buddists sit beneath a tree seeking to plunge into the world seeking a reason. Christians follow a man of flesh and blood who was an educated mystic, who knew just as anyone with half a brain, how to do things, by the nature of the fire of the soul.

If the fire can be kindled by any means then in this case does not then the means justify the ends to which one goes?

Personally, the only group I currently belong to is the CDB, and its been discussed that some of our conversations be brought to the main thread. So here is one for the whole, of the rave. IF you could have such a list, if such a reference was made available, then would not this list become a useful tool to seeking your own ends?

I rather think it will be fun. For me, i covet not knowledge but the experiences to be had with it. If everyone who sought, found, then it would be interesting, seeing the world bending and being shaped by the desires of those daring enough to know to will. :-p To long have we kept silent, and allowed filth to eat away at the "secrets" of the old ones.

Why not dust them off, put them on a shelf, and not claim they are shiny and new but allow them to be practiced, and learned from again. So that we can advance instead of try and invent the wheel generation after generation, forgetting that 10000 years ago, it was standard to go so far, then build over the foundations something new and useful.....so much building and there isn't any stable foundation left.

I to would find it interesting to see such an event. But knowing this would it wouldn't be much good to let the all of humans get their hands on such power. Not only could they currupt the old ways, but possibly the way life is and shape it into what they see is right. Like an entire rule of just one human containing the power a demi-god.

However...I think what you say would prove interesting in the hands of someone with good intentions and a thirst for knowlage.

If what you say is true if it is merely just worthless, then all around us is the same. I have come across that there is no definant answer to life as everyone believes their is. I believe in a balance, as everything is part of that balance but I don't believe there is a true meaning behind life its self, it just is because it is needed for balance. Like you cannot have one thing with out the other. So what you say about if they tried to disprove it they would be at a meaningless end because there is no way to prove or disprove. (excuse me if I misunderstood you)


Your thoughts are interesting to the point it makes me think A LOT! lol

Yes, but you only got a portion of that last bit it seems. Its not me they have to disprove. Its not even the information they have to disprove. But themselves.

They must attempt to show that they can walk a path of their own choosing, if they are handed something shrouded in mystery by all the idiots who have done more damage trying to "protect" the masses from this information, then what of the ones who would share it. Let them all become as gods?

So what if one person becomes as a demi-god, or even a full fledged god, if everyone else is a god what does it matter? why not live and let live. It only comes that we need to destroy when we haven't enough to do our selves. Because it becomes onesided.

Im glad you use your head. But the act of disproof is a path, that the believer walks, For they assume they are skeptical testing and trying, believing in their hearts they are doing the right thing. However flawed at the time their perspectives are. If they walk any path long enough, they will have to come to terms of It is the path they walk, they are because they have become as such.

Kheper -i kheper kheperu etc,,,,Thus learning of the mysteries in their own way. The act of teaching, inspired within them, the means by which they seek out god on their terms.

magic is live and learn as you go just as is life you learn what works for you and get your own techniques and it makes it stronger

So your coming to the conclusion that I have? There is no one path to magic and how to work it. Nor is there one path to life and how to live it. The same with anyone else. No rules, only the ones we create our selves and if such believe in those rules then those effects come into play?

Ah yes, but what is being referred to, is making the starting point something that would otherwise take about a good 7 years of research off the top...allowing for people to get an indepth perspective of things, and then they persue it at their own risk, or pleasure, what ever their mood happens to be.

You prove a very interesting point in all this. I think we truly have the same thoughts about many things. -smirks-

Whether or no we have similiar views, comes down to the simple question, should those things which have caused so many innocents die in the name of something they may not have even followed, have you ever thought to yourself:

You make it difficult to respond as you seem to awe me with your words. :P

However...the law its self has been proven to me time and again through my experience and since I have seen it, lived it, and felt it then I do believe it is true.

Thus my point. Why not post, so that the acclaim can go to the members of the Rave, or some such group that would openly display such subversive materials as completed list of correspondence, as well as a description for the application of everything from spells, rituals, and rites, Along with the demons and shells of the Qlipoth that even most Hermetic sheep of like societies as the Golden Dawn won't publish but more then in passing in an old out of print book.

I say, we should. Giving the public what they want is good form. They want demons, then I say let them have them. Let them face then their own demons, if they don't survive meh no worries, theres always more lambs to the slaughter on the altar of Yahweh, Adonai, Jehovah, at least thats we as children are taught in this day and age. Be but the lamb, offered to the christ. Savior to those who lend themselves to the mindlessness, inspiring fear and hatred for what they cannot know about the darkend paths.

They once openly practiced these arts themselves. Why not a good solid, jog of the genetic memory? Its been proven that there is such a thing, being predisposed to a current of energy, if the information becomes available why does all the current information have to be garbage spewed out like its brand shiny new? When its older then most of the dirt and sand we walk on. When societies that have long since become the dirt and deserts where once there was life, and rich verdent land.

Why not? if this is the age of awakening? the age where the true mind is overcome with a sense of self-hood not seen in anyother generation save for the greeks. If the one, can rise to say I am I, and I will be as god, then let them try it. But lets just help them along so they don't have to spend otherwise useful years, getting sidetracked and lost in metaphor.

Metaphor is nice, its shiny, its Publically Correct....But life is not PC, life is not shiny, and life is not new. So why should information that can uplift a man from the gutter of his life to the crowning glory that can be achieved if he only shaped his world in his ideals? Would then not men and women find happiness? For me, I am on the verges of such, my life is as i designed, I have my life, why cannot others have theirs.

Rise and suffer no more the bonds of silent misery. Stand against the oppesive ignorance and Let slip the dogs of war, the dogs within ourselves, that beast which is our deepest hunger for what we seek to know, about the is to be, the what could be, and the what if?

If Christ is silent suffering, Then be not silent, nor suffering, take information, where information can be gained, in this case in the potential for information to be posted publicly and for view of any passerby on the "deepest gaurded secrets" of the path of the wise. Heh. If they open the gates then it is for them to have opened them, and theirs to survive their own demons.

What you say is very true. But what is to be if one goes to distroy all things with magic, or tries to control all those with their great power...if that at all possible. What if they kept the secrets, secrets because of this reason, because they wanted to avoid unnessarry hassels concerning the balance not only of nature but the natural order of things. If one becomes god...or tries to play god thus illeminating not just one "sheep" as you put it but all "sheep". Then there is nothing to gain nor to have, all would be lost.

I suppose the question rises is if you let one have this power can that same person control those with it or is that of those choice they are trying to control? What if it means the end of us all?

If such an individual made it through the trials to gain that power, and the still thought like that, they would self destruct. Nature is Balance. So therefore magick, being a science and art of nature, to manipulate nature, If someone used it to wipe out life on this planet, then I would be looking forward to it. A fight of fights, no restrictions in the devistation.....but the advocacy of such things points to one simple thing.....Magick, comes from the same source.

It brought life, it brings strength and power, if it is abused then it will devour and abuse the one who does the abusing. IF one tries to eliminate life, then life will surmount the challenge and over come it, such is the nature of life. If one tries bring increase to death, death will welcome it, creating in turn more life to vegitation and thus part of the cycle. Nature is built on balance. You can push only so far, before it pushes back. Therefore you can only aid, protect, defend, create with the grandest of arts. Nature will be the judge, and will do what it is in the least resistance to do.

If it so happens a few towns are wiped out by a huricane or typhoon, so be it, life will always find a way. People learn, they grow, they experience. One may have the power of a god, but with no purpose, no reason to use it. The only thing that would stimulate such power in the end is love, is that which uplifts the spirit much like magick does to create a world of our desire.

Hmm....I suppose your right.

So you say, if one was to ask you the information you possess you would willingly give it to them knowing that their inentionions are theirs and theirs alone and what they do with it is none of your concern?

Correct

I always thought that there would be a consiquence to such an action because one allowed such devistation to happen...they also would suffer to because they just allowed it to form. But in this same thing...I feel you are also correct in the matter that if your not doing the distroying then why worry? The thing about it is, is it possible that one who gives such knowlage out could they also be victom to consiquences?

For one to initially attain the knowledge then one knows it in all of its aspects. Why not give out what others would deem valuable. If one is first in something, then one is solid in what they know. If one is second or even 100th it is all redone of the first anyway. What does it matter if you can be effected. If you are putting yourself into such a position then wouldn't you already have adiquite means to protect from any petty temporal goings on? even a stray bullet isn't stray, Chance is but a term for law unrecognized.

So, experiences are what make life go round, worth living. For me, I could live or die, I don't much care, i just want to enjoy something I am doing. If its dying i want to know i put up one hellofa fight before I let mortal death take me. I will find a way out the stinking abyss and plop myself back into a meat suit and do it all over again.

But if it was that such a sadist wanted to do that, i would willing hand them the means. 9 out of 10 times you give out a damaging spell, or something that can change the geography of a region the thing wont be used. That one time it is used. reminds people they are alive. So it is still a good thing, nature balancing her scales.

This has been a very interesting discussion. You have taught me things and even givin me insight on how to deal with a certain individual.

Your wisdom is greatly apprecaited.

Enjoy, yay for dawn, time to pass out.

Two points: (1) I agree. The sooner you "get down to work", the sooner you can work on the mastery of which ever facet of the Arts you are working on.
(2) In every philosophy, there are symbols of "tradition". Those need to be honored and respected, otherwise, the philosophy will loose some of it's focus and can even become watered-down, or become "New Agey". In my opinion.

If you like learning perhaps you would like to glance at some of the occult literature about the destruction of Atlantis or Lemuria. Some mysteries are too deep and too dangerous for the common herd.

To know,
To darel,
To will,
To keep silence
-- Levi's famous four rules for the adept.

wow, this is great info for one like me learning a path.

I know. It was fun back then, and people survived anyway.

But why should I follow rules of a man who didn't even believe in himself. When knowledge is knowledge because it does not matter if its believed in or not. it simply is, because is it is, irrefutable.

I personally don't think truth can be tought.

One can guide or give pointers as to where information can be found, but each individual finds their own truths.

Carraval,

If correspondences that have been used for 10000 years are all ways to describe the same things, then why would someone need to find their own when they would other wise not have an easy quick reference. Its not about preaching truth, but that the correspondences and basics are given to such a point, as to form the "truth" one seeks to establish for themselves.

....lol...I mentioned 'truth' as you had mentioned it earlier.

Personally, I don't think 'shortcuts' are a good idea.....but each to their own...if you feel it's good then do it.