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Lust
Lust

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14:38:58 Jun 29 2005
Read 942 times

An art?




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romman
romman
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14:40:17 Jun 29 2005
Read 907 times

it takes skill to do that

i have not tallent V.V



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Lust
Lust

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14:41:39 Jun 29 2005
Read 903 times

no.. it simply takes passion and honest.. to be honest *grins* I myself think it is an art.. so many have no clue how to perform bondage properly.. *shakes head*



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romman
romman
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14:42:45 Jun 29 2005
Read 899 times

i can barely tie my shoe let alone a bondage knot. im a subie blah i have no skils



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Lust
Lust

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14:43:34 Jun 29 2005
Read 896 times

Pity..



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Lust
Lust

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14:45:13 Jun 29 2005
Read 894 times

Come on people! Looking for true bondage fans that know a little more than.. "it includes being mean" about this art...



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romman
romman
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14:47:25 Jun 29 2005
Read 891 times

ive been dominated by sum realy nice ppl

its not all about bein mean



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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14:49:59 Jun 29 2005
Read 888 times

I think it has to be among the most misunderstood and diverse sexual group out there



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Lust
Lust

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14:51:26 Jun 29 2005
Read 886 times

.. *groans* .. how do I explain this to an ammature.. ?? ..hmm.. YES IT IS.. you don't want to be hit and hear "I love you" at the same time, it just isn't right, what you are, or have enjoyed, isn't true bondage, where you are the slave and nothing but.. no love is there.. you are to be used and to be used well, but at the same time respected...



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Lust
Lust

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14:53:23 Jun 29 2005
Read 881 times

Well yes of course it is misunderstood.. I mean come on.. in the dictionary, sadist, the third definition is "extreme cruelty" ... *sighs* ..



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romman
romman
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14:53:32 Jun 29 2005
Read 880 times

thats what i mean

ive been dominated by people who dont respect me

and that sucks



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silentalucard
silentalucard

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14:55:35 Jun 29 2005
Read 879 times

the amount of trust involved is a great way of showing somone how much you truly love them and also the feeling of being helpless with the pleasure as well is a fantastic assult on the senses ~X~



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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14:59:14 Jun 29 2005
Read 874 times

".. *groans* .. how do I explain this to an ammature.. ?"

......at one time we all were starting out - even the most advanced practictioners have more to learn

elitism is never something to brag about, or aim for



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Lust
Lust

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14:59:52 Jun 29 2005
Read 873 times

What do you consider respect then..? A dom isn't supposed to show any amount of respect or mercy during the "activities" .. he/she is performing.. To be a good dom, you must love to see the mark of a whip/cane/stick on the subs flesh.. or enjoy their cries and whimpers... A good dom is glared upon once finished with his/her slave.



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Octavia
Octavia

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15:01:39 Jun 29 2005
Read 872 times

There is no proper way to preform BDSM, because everyone experiments differently. Some people are more comfertable with different levels, some like it intense. Yes, you could consider it an art form, I just consider it pleasure......



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Lust
Lust

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15:02:19 Jun 29 2005
Read 871 times

Check out my profile, then you will see that I like to brag, and honestly don't care about looking modest.

*smirks* .. but then again.. *groans* how DO I explain this to an ammature?



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Octavia
Octavia

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15:03:16 Jun 29 2005
Read 869 times

A good dom commands respect and power, but also shows respect as well.



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:04:20 Jun 29 2005
Read 868 times

The behaviors of a dom and sub in question is unique to each of the couples situations - there are many kinds of power play acts and roles to have

You just have generalized it all into one generic lump sum that is just the public stero-type



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Lust
Lust

No Longer Registered
15:05:28 Jun 29 2005
Read 866 times

*nods* That may very well be, but to be a true s/m partnership, you must be able to handle it all.. perhaps there are different levels.. All the good doms I have met, live and breathe it, and have many slaves.. respects them all, but uses them as he/she will.. at any time, for anything.



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:07:10 Jun 29 2005
Read 862 times

"What do you consider respect then..? A dom isn't supposed to show any amount of respect or mercy during the "activities" .. he/she is performing.. To be a good dom, you must love to see the mark of a whip/cane/stick on the subs flesh.. or enjoy their cries and whimpers... A good dom is glared upon once finished with his/her slave. "

Perhaps one of the most signle onesided, narrow, and generic views of power play yet. This is the kind of image portayed in a comedy movie from Hollywood.

Powerplay has so much more in the way of options and richness.



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:08:38 Jun 29 2005
Read 861 times

"*nods* That may very well be, but to be a true s/m partnership, you must be able to handle it all.. perhaps there are different levels.. All the good doms I have met, live and breathe it, and have many slaves.. respects them all, but uses them as he/she will.. at any time, for anything. "

Who have you met? I've been highly active in the scene....from Shibari Con, to knowing authors of a few s&m books.

Again, this is just the onesided Hollywood version of what s&m relationships are like.

What you just spelled out sounds like more like abusive swinging



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Lust
Lust

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15:09:30 Jun 29 2005
Read 859 times

Actually no.. I haven't. I have spoken to many different doms and subs, all that are very passionate and serious about it.. They make it an art.. Anyways, all of them are very smart and unique.. this is how they all are.. yet, there styles when it comes time to being a dom/sub, are the same.. cruel yet respectful, it is hard to comprehend how those two can coincide.. but they do... and thus, BDSM..



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:12:04 Jun 29 2005
Read 855 times

dont get me wrong, a lot of people are into humilation - but thats not the majority a good portion of the time.

Most serious tops I have known - have one long term steady partner (wife, husband, etc) that they explore sensual activities with and grow with.

Power play relationships are like instruments - the longer you play and have your instrument, the sweeter the music you two make. Bottoms are not robots that if you perform A,B,C on that it will always work and they will always want to do....these relationships are highly dynamic, and ever evolving and time consuming when done 24/7.

There is a great article written that I will have to find for you - by a highly respected Pro-Dom and book writer. Its about how people have twisted s&m up into this BS fantasy world, and that that fantasy world is really mucking a lot of thigns up. How its not about status quo, and how many slaves you have..or how you call your run down trailer "Misstress X's castle of submission".....



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:12:55 Jun 29 2005
Read 854 times

"I have spoken to many different doms and subs, all that are very passionate and serious about it.. "

All I can say is...beware of bragging - its highly rampant and 90% of the time.....bullshit.



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:15:16 Jun 29 2005
Read 852 times

HA HA - I found the article for you to read...please read it in full...its funny and addresses many issues I think you have learned or heard about from talking to others

http://www.iron-rose.com/marketplace/keynote.htm

Its witty, and got me to laugh a few times too. Yes its long, but really...has many fine points.



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Lust
Lust

No Longer Registered
15:18:45 Jun 29 2005
Read 844 times

I can keep bragging if you like.. though, I am not considering this bragging.. just the truth, as I have done my reasearch.. and am continuing to do it.

Now, I never said for sure that THIS is how a dom/sub relationship must go, and this is the only way.. I did say, perhaps there are different levels.. perhaps of intensity?

I should have worded my questions differently, I wonder.. do people consider the hardcore dom.. to be cruel?



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Lust
Lust

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15:19:55 Jun 29 2005
Read 841 times

I believe I meant research.. *clears throat* .. ahem.. yes.



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:21:05 Jun 29 2005
Read 838 times

Hardcore dom.... cruel? Depends on the role play involved.

As for your bragging, do what you want.



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Lust
Lust

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15:25:04 Jun 29 2005
Read 836 times

Do what you want, but don't do it around me.. (bad religion) .. don't ask..

*looks around* any others want to speak? I am curious to know another persons opinion.. Hopefully a males..



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:25:08 Jun 29 2005
Read 835 times

Ahhh...here is a great quote from the article.... mind you, this article was written in responce to all the BS floating around about powerplay

------------------------------------------------
"The trouble comes in when people rely on fiction to tell them the truth - and fiction is the diametric opposite of truth. Fiction writers use truth as a tool, the same way we use metaphors and archetypes. When it suits us, and the story, we add truth. When the truth is inconvenient, or ill suited to drama, we make up our own version of the truth.

Now, sometimes, using fiction as a guide is helpful! It's probable that our earliest storytellers told stories to communicate fears and beliefs and to teach the "right" way to do things according to what went on before, or what people believed went on before. So, cautionary tales and heroic epics both serve to warn and inspire; to provide a sense of stability and continuity. In small, insular communities, stories serve the primary purpose of alerting us that we are not alone; they give us a link complete with codes to recognize each other. I remember cruising chicks by asking them which story in Macho Sluts was their favorite. (If they said, Birthday Party, ohhh, cool...Calyx of Isis? Run Away! Those chicks were too high maintenance!) Of course it was natural for the slaves at Hellfire to have Story of O collars and rings, for the men in the bars to read Mr. Benson and then act their favorite parts out! The literature brought us together and celebrated our sense of community.

But mostly, living your life according to fiction is a BAD IDEA. You'd think this would be self-obvious, and yet - it's not. And how can we even begin to address history seriously when so much of who and what we are is partial - if not purely - fiction?"
--------------------------------

"And folks, if you don't have answers, then don't pretend you do. You look stupid, and what's worse is that you pass your dimness onto some poor schlub who doesn't know the difference, and somewhere, an historian - or even a fiction writer - is losing their brain cells. And it's your fault."

----------------------------




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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:27:29 Jun 29 2005
Read 834 times

Ahhh - here is the part in the article that works great..... this addresses the issues in rely on others to "tell" you about what is involved..instead of actually doing this for yourselves...

(warning, this is a copy and past from an article, there might be foul lanuage I did not yet censor out - my pardons)

------

"For decades, we sadomasochists have drummed ourselves on the back, saying we're so smart and creative and bold and honest and brave and loyal and faithful and true, we're the modern age romantics, the knights in black leather. But let me tell you, all of that gets shot to hell every time someone dubs themselves MasterHighLordBubba@aol.com and starts collecting "subbies."

I know - you're sitting out there nice and smug, thinking "well, it's not me, I'm real." And maybe it's true that every person here uses the name they sign checks with, avoids uncommon or archaic titles, uses correct grammar, never invents a personal history at odds with, oh, anything resembling reality, and never exaggerates their years of experience, past adventures, or future plans. Maybe - just maybe - everyone here does go home and live the same life they talk about at leather events, down to the smallest detail. In this crowd, I am sure we hare surrounded by the very crème de la crème of the Olde Guarde, total power exchange, Euro-Gorean 24/7 leather Levi fetish BDSM kinky lifestyle. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that just because someone likes to be called Master means they're a big fat liar. I know lots of nice masters, mistresses and whatnots. And the fact is, role playing and secret codes and fancy names and make believe are all part of what we do, even the most serious, blood and thunder "living the lifestyle" purists. I wouldn't want us to throw that good stuff away any more than I'd expect a French chef to stop using cream and butter. Fantasy - it's what's for dessert!

It's when it becomes commingled with fact and history that pushes my buttons. For crying out loud, people, if you really want to be known as Mistress Anorexia of the Clan Slimfast, I don't care! No one cares! But when you try to tell people that your secret clan of ninja BDSMers goes back 100 years to the founding members in Budapest, and these are the secret rituals and clothing styles passed down by the Daughters of Dementia, and then you pass this kiddie crap off as real - come on. Just because a lot of people are gullible doesn't mean everyone is. Pull the hype back a bit and cop to the fact you made it up.

And what the fuck's wrong with making shit up?? You'd think it isn't any fun unless someone tells you a story about how authentic they are, or their toys are, or their methods are. Believe me, it's way more fun to know your partner has an imagination than to slowly come to the understanding that your partner is a loony.

Isn't it interesting, though, how we at the same time call ourselves rugged individualists AND seek to join special secret clubs? And we so desperately want to belong somewhere. That's what colors and leather and uniforms and styles and fashions and creeds and oaths and big parties are, really. But here's a clue and please pass it on to newbies when you meet them? Top secret ancient houses and clans and covens and klaverns of sadomasochists - IF they existed, and I am not saying they do - would NOT seek out members by chatting them up anonymously online!

No, really. They would be much more devious and creative.

And again, I hear you thinking at me, "But Laura, I know that crap! I don't fall for it!" And yet, even when you escape the clutches of Master Ox of Box and his Martian Love-boys, you still steer people to his website, doncha? After all, he has a lot of great articles and a personal ad services and some hot pictures of well hung guys. Or, you remain silent when Grandmaster Rooty-Tooty of the House of Pancakes is invited to a panel discussion and he proceeds to talk about his third generation training house, aka the double wide. Hell, you invite him! You pay his airfare! Rooty-Tooty there might be a great guy, a fun player, and his little slave chicks Fresh and Fruity might be eye candy, but the fact is, they're playing Klingons and we give 'em a place at the table because they play LOUD Klingons.

Yes, Klingons. These people, when they aren't at your leather affair are at a Star Trek convention with a horseshoe crab glued to their foreheads, screaming Ka-plach! at each other. The next weekend, they take the crab off and tell you how to live the master slave lifestyle, and you sit there and grin and say nothing. Honey, is that what you really want?

Stop the lies, people. Put the brakes on pretension and consider the most basic truth of all - we are valued by what we leave behind us, not by what is already gone. You think your spiffy blue collar needs a name? Fine! Name it whatever you like, name it George! But don't call it an Olde Guarde Collar of Discipline. You just confuse the newbies and make the alterkackers laugh at you behind your back. You want to call your split level ranch the Seat of Clan Silverwolf of Thunder Mountain? Knock yourself out. Just don't try to sell me on the way your parents trained you to be the Alpha Bitch of your Wolf Clan starting at age 9, and that's how you are born and raised to dominate all two legged creatures everywhere. Puh-leeze, folks. Do we really need more episodes of CSI?

(Although, if they want to bring back Lady Heather, I'm all for that.)

I'm not saying you can't play games! I love games, and I love a good story. But when you take elements from someone else's story - like when you try to be Gorean or Klingon, or even (shudder) Marketplace, you are selling yourself short. What you can be alone or with your partners is so much greater than what can be found in text on paper. And when you find you need to make up a story painting yourself greater than what you once saw in the mirror, remember, it might have be the story that gets their attention - but you, the person, need to keep it. Throw the story away and see if they stay. I guarantee it - you are better without it.

Believe it or now, what we do, no matter what you call it, is still transgressive, even though you can find SM books at an occasional Barnes & Noble. It is still exciting and different, and fun and challenging, eve if we do seem to have more organizational meetings than orgies. I realize that when people grasp at a fake history, fake names, fake philosophies, what they are saying is, "what I do, who I am, is special; I have a great story." We don't want to be common, and who does? What I want to tell you though, is the truth is exciting, it is special, it has its own value, and what's more, it's easier to remember and defend.

Every contestant in this year's contest said, more than once, that one key to their relationship is honest and open communication. And for over 20 years, I've heard hundreds, maybe thousands of the same people say the same thing, praising themselves and each other for being "honest and open." You're not being honest and open by pretending you're royalty. Honesty requires truth - openness invites scrutiny. You want excitement and thrills and danger? Then come out of your closets. You want faith and truth and loyalty? Then inspire them with actions, not Dungeons & Dragons names and imaginary histories. You want respect and admiration? Then foster them with behavior and deeds.

And for those of you smugly sitting there full of the knowledge I am not talking to you, your job isn't done. Silence is the voice of complicity. When you remain quiet in the face of bullshit, you are lending it your credibility. You are saying it is so, merely by saying nothing. You don't have to confront every pretentious blowhard calling himself Lord Nightwind of Destiny House. But don't afford him the same time and prestige of someone who goes by a more common name and has an actual address and fails the drama queen test. If someone has a real history, they should have something to show for it. Records, writings, photos, friends, organizational notes, something that says 'I was here then and did this.' Something more than a web page with a black background, flickering torches and rinky-dink electronic dungeon music.

So when your bullsh!t meter goes off, don't support the lies! Let's learn to celebrate our storytelling without pretending it's real. You can call yourself the Marquis of the Grand Duchy of Fenwick for all I care. But you still need a Metrocard to take the subway. Remember to laugh at yourself and feel free to say "I'm more than what I used to be, and this name makes me feel good." There's nothing wrong with that. But when you sit there and tell people desperate to be the heroes in their own stories that you were born naturally ready to take a role, that you never disobey, or doubt, or betray, or hurt without cause - that you live a life even fiction could not amply express, where there is plenty of time, plenty of energy and above all, you are always honest, truthful, loyal, devout, obedient, submissive, dominant or always ANYTHING, you are setting my bullsh!t meter off loud and clear and I'm f*cking tired of it."



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Lust
Lust

No Longer Registered
15:47:49 Jun 29 2005
Read 827 times

When did this conversation turn into a conversation on whether people lie or not?



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ladyatropos
ladyatropos

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15:49:26 Jun 29 2005
Read 824 times

At the point where you made it clear that your info and knowledge was a lot of second hand, learned from the internet.



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STABB666
STABB666
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17:34:32 Jun 29 2005
Read 812 times

thanks for the info ladyatropos...



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STABB666
STABB666
Superior Sire (140)
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Member of The House of La Bella Oscuridad
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17:36:14 Jun 29 2005
Read 810 times

but in answer to the question, yes, I believe it is an artform, if done with subtlety.



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LifeIsKillingMe
LifeIsKillingMe

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18:43:31 Jun 29 2005
Read 804 times

Any activity performed from great affection for said activity is an artistic expression.



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18:47:18 Jun 29 2005
Read 800 times

art huh yes i would have to say it is.
only if done properly i agree that so few know how to do it correctly. it is an art form that i myself enjoy.



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Arkadis
Arkadis
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19:06:22 Jun 29 2005
Read 795 times

Art yes and such a wonderful for of art it is
nothing better than enjoying anothers pain...especially if they are enjoying it themselves



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LadyLoveCat
LadyLoveCat
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19:30:20 Jun 29 2005
Read 789 times

I made a thread on this subject and it got closed.



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Lust
Lust

No Longer Registered
02:11:52 Jun 30 2005
Read 767 times

.. Okay?



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by Daire on Jun 30 2005  •

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