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I have always found it rather silly that there are people who cannot accept that the spiritual and science do not go hand-in-hand. Our ancestors never had these issues but for some reason, since certain things science can explain away, some view that it takes AWAY the value from the spiritual side, which isn't true by any means.

The way Life itself works, is pretty amazing if one were to think about just how much our world changes, evolves, and mutates no matter what form. It breeds new life and takes away.

Now with this said, why can't the spiritual-minded ones, agree that magick is just another kind of science? And why can't the scientific-minded ones not understand this concept?

To be spiritual does not equate a person must believe in a deity. Someone who is of a spiritual nature is aware of their surroundings, their environment, and just like the scientist....is aware of just how great energy is. If the greatest scientific mind says, we are of the universe, we are of the stars, we are made of star particles, then why is it so hard to accept that our own energies that make up who WE are, is not of another form created by the universe itself or some kind of mutation, or evolvement of conciousness that has been birthed before our own making?

Would we then not have to accept that both sides do in fact, belong together?

I find that spiritualist are threatened by science because science continues to debunk the sensational practices of spiritualist.

Spiritualist are always going after science, it seems that spiritualist, as well as those that subscribe to metaphysics desperately want science to validate their abstract, and ambiguous beliefs regarding the universe. The catch is that spiritualist, and metaphysical minded people are biased. Theirs is a preset conclusion, "It's a mystery." "Only the enlightened can grasp it."

Science has actually met the challenge of spiritualist, by joining ranks and observing various aspects, and practices associated with spiritualism. Psychologist, physicist, and Illusionist have been able to duplicate alleged spiritual phenomena.

So the battle is in a manner becoming one sided. One could ask, What do spiritualist want from science?

Isn't a faith (belief without evidence) enough? Does one require sensation experiences to be a spiritual person? Wouldn't the pressure have a testimony, or account of a paranormal nature propagate false, and pious testimonies?

I think that is a common mistake people of science make about people who are both spiritual and scientific both.

What i am wondering is why can't they BOTH see that they are both correct?

To say that science is proving the spiritual ones false, is not an accurate statement. When you think about ghost hunters and paranormal investigators, those people are using science to gather information to try and prove what is what.

You can't say that all people who is knowledgeable of the spiritual side who experiences things personally must be medically unsound. That is pretty closed-minded and even someone professional would not agree to that. Just because one themselves has never experienced it, doesn't mean it's not true or doesn't exist.

The scientific minds can't deny the evidence if it's given because if they do, then they are no different and being just as close-minded if that were the case.

Spirituality always comes down to anecdotal accounts, and relies on testimony. People fabricate experiences, one would be naive to accept every testimony regarding paranormal, or supernatural experiences as genuine . One also has to factor in the fact that the senses are subject to illusions.

Too many spiritualist place such high importance on experience. This is why they conflict so much with science, they always fail to provide data that is suitable for peer review, yet they desperately want to be accepted as a ligament science. Yet in the same breath they want to be beyond science.


It has already been demonstrated that stage magicians, and scientist can duplicate feats that where previously presented as evidence of supernatural, or spiritual forces.

The truth is that even in the light of this those that believe are close minded, and remain undeterred in their claims. So I ask again. Why do spiritual people need more than faith? Why do they need the demonstrations? What purpose is served by trading testimonies of personal experiences?

The World's Greatest Spirit Medium
WAS A FRAUD!
No matter how often the confidence scammers are exposed, those who believe will happily continue to pay cold hard cash to be deceived. The believers are not victims of the miracle workers: they are willing, eager, happy participants in their own betrayal (usually in the form of cash money, real estate, jewels, and expensive works of art). That they can believe that which cannot be believed is a mark of how well so-called "psychics," palmists, spoon benders., etc., know the business of deception. The fact that not even one miracle worker has ever demonstrated, in properly controled conditions, even one "psychic" or "paranormal" ability or phenomena is lost upon true believers--- they just do not care. They would rather believe a lie.

"The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable? How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--- indeed, clings to it all the harder?

"The true-believer syndrome is the greatest thing phony mediums have going for them. No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie."

© M. Lamar Keene, the world's greatest spirit medium. Quoted from pg. 151, The Psychic Mafia, 1997, Prometheus Books 1-57392-161-0.

You would think that confidence scams would be against the law, right? Well, you would think correctly. However, in the USA such practices are protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and even more strongly protected by over two hundred years of hands-off precedent. Law enforcement in the USA has nearly always shunned bringing religious-based criminals to court to answer for their crimes: the USA government does not wish to appear to be "persecuting churches." As Lamar Keene pointed out:

"To make my renunciation of mediumship complete, I knew there were other things I yet had to do. Seeking out a Masonic friend, I poured forth to him the whole story. At my request he went with me to the authorities. I turned myself in to the Internal Revenue Service for evasion of income tax. (I eventually paid all back taxes in full.) I also visited the FBI, the county sheriffs office, and the state attorney-general. To all these I made full confession of my years of fraud.

"No police investigation of any medium was launched as a result of my action nor, to my knowledge, did the Internal Revenue Service look into the matter of mediumistic bookkeeping. One reason for official reluctance to do anything may be an exaggerated concept of religious liberty. Apparently the last thing a public official in this country wants is for some sect like the spiritualists to scream bloody murder about religious persecution. At any rate, whatever the reason, the mediums continue unmolested.

"As a matter of fact, my former partner is doing better than ever[....]"

© M. Lamar Keene, the world's greatest spirit medium. Quoted from pg. 153, The Psychic Mafia, 1997, Prometheus Books 1-57392-161-0.

This dispite the fact that Keene confessed to fraud, theft, burglary, robbing the dead, picking pockets, and tax evasion ("all in a day's work," as the American saying goes, for spirit mediums).

Do you believe in "psychic phenomena?" Do you believe people can "talk to the dead?" Do you believe that some people can heal with just a touch or a shout of "Praise Jezuz!" or other incantation? Or do you think these things are silly, and yet still believe in astrology, I Ching, chiropractic, homeopathy, or spoon benders?

Alas, if you do, you are a fool. Human beings are increadably easy to deceive. Miracles performed before their very eyes by prestidigitation (i.e. "stage magic") they find entertaining; the same miracles performed by a self-professed "psychic," using the same or similar methods of the state magician, are seen by the True Believers as "evidence" of their beliefs. No amount of evidence to the contrary, including confession by the fraud who performed the tricks, is good enough to sway the True Believer. If you are among these poor souls, well, you have my sympathy, but you must admit you "had it comming to you." After all, you believe the impossible--- shouldn't you pay for such stupidity?

The "psychics," spirit mediums, spoon-benders, and all the other miracle workers believe you should. Imagine the utter contemp they hold for their gullible vistims. As "David" in the movie King of the Gypsies put it, talking about their victims:

"Dey believed 'cuz dey was ign'rant."

And that is the entire truth, in one insightful (albeit poor) sentence. I may as well be the one to tell you the brutal, cold, hard truth: genuine "psychic phenomena" do not exist. Lack of evidence for "psychic phenomena" is excellent evidence for lack of the existence of that phenomena. All a "psychic" need do to demonstrate my assertion false is to demonstrate a "psychic" ability. Not surprising, "psychics" refuse. EVERY TIME. Dowsers fail every time. Astrologers (and I've studied astrology and astrologers for 15 years) fail every time. "Psychics" fail every time. Spirit mediums produce "ectoplasm" (i.e. chiffon fabric) from their pockets and push tin trumpets around table-tops with sticks (in the dark), but they ALWAYS fail to produce any spirits.

"Super-natural phenomena?" It just doesn't happen! If you wish to believe otherwise, well, all I can say is that you're a fool. The real universe is amazing enough without believing it is a magical place where gurus leviated, ascended masters talk to people through mediums via spirit guides, the diseased and the dying get healed by prayer, and spoons get bent by merely willing them to bend. I wish the universe did work that way, but it does not.

What I am trying to relate is the difference between spirituality, and the practices of spiritualist.

Anyone secure in their spirituality has no need for fuzzy affirmations.

Not everyone who is spiritual, has blind faith. Some people who are spiritual, base it on their own personal evidence. It's really no one else's business to know unless that person wishes to share it. But to say all spiritual people are the same, is rather incorrect.

Most choose to not get into arguments or debates about something esp with the scientific minded ones are so hell bent on trying to discredit something based on what limited technologies that we have.

Would you not agree that we are not that advanced yet to prove everything?

What if we DO prove that the people who have reason to believe what they do has some merit? Would that not make the scientific minded ones not feel bad for making others doubt themselves?

I am not saying the scientific minded ones are to be ignored, or the evidence that's presented, however, i don't feel the spiritual ones are to be discredited EITHER, because as i said before, it is all science anyway.

Still the practices of spiritualist, and psychics, is old hat.

The fact remains that peoples senses are unreliable, and prone to bias.

People are also subject to peer pressure, this can account for a percentage of testimonies regarding experiences.

Whats wrong with just believing? Why the need for all the affirmation? Especially when it is all just performance, or hype.

By the way, there is nothing scientific about spirituality. Regardless of how desperate spiritualist want it to be so. Simply believing in something does not make it a physical property. Saying that science can not prove spiritual claims is a fallacy of logic, the burden of proof lies upon spiritualist who make the claims. This is why I want to be clear and say again.

Anyone secure in their belief, or faith should not need an affirmation. If anyone presents a demonstration then that is subject to observation. The inherent problem with spiritualist is that they are selective in who they allow to observe their performances. Another practice in modern times is the use of complicated disclaimers that distill any of their failed performances. So why would anyone place so much stock in what spiritualist present as evidence?

You mention the pseudoscience of ghost hunting... it is as bunk as it gets, trust me, if any hard data has ever been uncovered it would have splashed the headlines... low and behold nothing... big fat zero.

Whats sad is that people who are secure in there spirituality without experiences, or extraordinary affirmations are left feeling as though they are being left out of something.

It just comes across as desperate people wanting to include themselves in something, so they fabricate an extraordinary testimony, and poof they become accepted by other believes, without question. It is just a collective built on lets make believe.

Well Dabbler, i guess we will just have to agree to disagree with your viewpoints about the differences between the spiritual sided individuals and those that are hardcore into discrediting those that do.

I will say that there is enough pictures, evidence and accounts by others to NOT take into notice. This subject was also NOT to reach some sort of acceptance by others but rather to discuss that not all people are defined the same way, and not all are "frauds".

Thank you for sharing your side of things.

Actually there is no substantial material that has held up to scrutiny, none. I openly invite you to offer me a link to any material that has.