The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

Is a Coven for Skeptics :)
Now, there are many covens to choose from but maybe it would be better to have a small place put aside for those who do not buy into the whole "I'm a supernatural person blah blah blah"
I'm just putting the idea out there. We have a purgatory (Woo!!!) But someone (This is my plea to a sire out there) to Give the skeptic's some ground!!

What you think? Pro's & Con's? Would it bring the skeptics closer together???

define skeptic... do you mean that because there are some grownups on this site who REALLY believe that we are NOT vampires... that categorizes us as skeptics?
i like my pirate coven fine for the fact that there are only 10 members, personally see no reason to be in a coven that has a groupthink mentaliyt. that'd be like joining a church to feel comfy that the others around me had the same "faith" as me. im not so insecure that i feel threatened by other people having ideas different than mine. if i ever had a coven of my own - peoples positions on this that or whatever would be WIDE open.

and i would still post in the MAIN forums when i had time... why would i post for only a few others when i can have my take out there for anyone to see.

that should be one of the core notions of this site - free speech and individualism. who cares if my opinions rock someone ele's boat??? if i begin personally attacking people and calling them names or silly things of that nature, i have gone too far.

maybe i am "skeptical "of some things in this world based on experience/though/research/reason/reading.
thats called REALITY.
or free will if you dare...

maybe there should be a "coven of sheep" for all the peole on VR who REALLY are vampires, have 27 anime pix on thier profiles, and listen to lamb of himsmack mansontool switchvayne...

Nice con there matey,but your coven doesnt have a forum where the members can disscuss like minded subjects? As do many other covens and houses here.Im kindof not understanding your logic in your statement..

I guess all of you have a little of reason to think like that, but i have to go with the previous reply, many of the covens can't talk fluently when they have people who opposes their ideals, I guess the coven master need to post a announcement if they wish to ban those members who are not alike the whole group or take it to votes..i dont think people would cry over getting banned from a vr coven hehe

many of the coven posts due with topics of not two sided posts. religion and other topics should never be discussed in every day life. to many subjective points to be had on both sides of the coin.

many of the covens I have expeirenced friendship and comeradery, nothing where irrational and rational thoughts come into play.

"i like my pirate coven fine for the fact that there are only 10 members, personally see no reason to be in a coven that has a groupthink mentaliyt."

Is that Not the point of a coven? To gather like-minded people who are heading for the same goal?? Ok, there isnt really a goal to achieve on here, but thats the train of thought.
I'm a skeptic (hense why i made this thread?) Of course, your going to post on the main forums to your hearts content and why not? I'm just saying, on the main forums theres always bickering and such, In a coven dedicated to the skeptics it might cool it down a little?
It could be a place where more...suited discussions take place?

Plus...Skeptics are all heading for the same goal, disproving claims!

Its only an idea, i'm not going to forcefully induct you should this even happen so dont worry about it.

Yet let me get this straight, a group of skeptics in the same coven, would not battle wits with each other. The forum posts would really not achieve nothing if every post brought up you all agreed on it.

Even in life skeptics are there , all around to challenge the thoughts of others and the ways they do things. it helps improve the stucture of a mind to see on both sides of a coin, and helps to arguably debate the points for an against.

I would see no structure for a coven like this, well i guess you could debate on the logo or colors need for the coen, but the rest would just grow cobwebs waiting for some idea to reply to each other.

is this what you are saying?

I agree with cadrewolf if the coven has the same group.
Then there is no diversity. NO arguments nothing learnt with out deversity we have nothing.
IE:Cultural diversity is the variety of human societies or cultures in a specific region, or in the world as a whole.
RE:wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_diversity
just for infringement reasons i added the link.
I happen to be a skeptic but enjoy learning what my coven mates offer.As of those i have as friends on this site.

"Yet let me get this straight, a group of skeptics in the same coven, would not battle wits with each other. The forum posts would really not achieve nothing if every post brought up you all agreed on it.

Even in life skeptics are there , all around to challenge the thoughts of others and the ways they do things. it helps improve the stucture of a mind to see on both sides of a coin, and helps to arguably debate the points for an against.

I would see no structure for a coven like this, well i guess you could debate on the logo or colors need for the coen, but the rest would just grow cobwebs waiting for some idea to reply to each other.

is this what you are saying?"

*rolls eyes* Does the obvious always need to be pointed out? You assume all skeptics agree with eachother, which is completely wrong. everyone would give there own opinion to a thread in that coven forum, just as they do in any other forum. It wouldnt be a place to them to gather and agree with eachother about everything because then it would be to alike the rest of the covens on this site (With the exception of Pergatory ofcourse!)
I think your being biased in your POV and i completely understand if you couldnt bare the thought of a bunch of skeptics backchatting "vampires" in there own private space.

As for choosing the logo and such, I was thinking maybe something that represented something REAL? That is proven to exist? Any idea's? Or cant you tell the difference between what is reality and what is fantasy?

Let them back chat all the vampires they want, It has no bearing on me and probaly anyone else here.
opinions are welcomed and listened too, yet what we get from that we use as we see fit.

And as you state a bunch of skeptics around pondering ideas from the other, Yet as fruitful as that seems, alot of the skeptics have the same opinion, so what would be debated. Much like any querry here on the regular post in the forums, cut and paste works but so does all logic from the same skeptic idea, just posted in different terms from other sites.

If you are such in high regards with this than do it. i welcome the challange and so do many here. I hold no ill feelings for none, and I do not get envolved in one sided drama. i like the idea of learning both sides of the posts. I gain knowledge as much as any do.

As ive stated before should anyone take this idea up forceful induction wouldnt take place. People would be free to come and go as they please. Obviously your entitled to your opinion however closed minded and offputting it is.
I wouldnt expect all skeptic's to be on board with the idea, but this is all this thread is about, discussion about the creation of a Coven.
Despite your objections I still think it would serve some purpose, maybe even offer a refuge from the blatent RP on these forums.

Oh do not get me wrong, I love the idea, as long as it brings on higher learning and pondering of posts. But i shall not sit to one-sided idle chat. Want all things gained by others with their own ideas, not cut and paste therios of others.

Presumtious statement, all skeptics agree on anything.

Google skeptic collectives, I dare you.. Research something.. Something skeptics do well, that and share Commonly observed Fallscies of logic, I bet you presume all computer geeks are virgins.. what would not be found in a skeptic coven is contrived indignation, and self important dogma.

Believers are unable to convert skeptics, but a skeptic can easily convince a believer, usually with simple theatrics.

So many with underlying motive here. It is becoming more obvious as inconsistencies are exposed( another thing that skeptics do when gathered, by herded mind you.).

Without people questioning others assumptions and statement there wouldnt be any discussion at all, only agreements, would be really boring "skeptics" by one side talking about what they all know and "vampires" by their side doing the same..Why dont they just both show each other their toys and play along, if one side wants understanding then someone need to show what the other one wants, not just close.

In poker it is " a call", more skeptics have made believers out of nonbelievers, then believers have converted skeptics.

One such skeptic was PT Barnum, and Jim Jones.

I like poker.:D
And I still kinda like the idea of of a coven,or even a "Skeptics corner" or something.
Because even if the coven might be geared for skeptics? I think there are enough here that really dont mind when things are picked apart,dontn feel threatened or hurt no matter where the coin lands on a given subject.And really all we are all really looking for is some kind of truth or evidence to substanceate some of these beliefs.

You might hold a point.. looks like only few are actually participating on the threads defending their views, but it will only keep on until they get tired of saying " we dont need to show our beliefs to anyone" and the other part: "give me facts and evidence", its just matter of time when this whole discussion hits a dead end, resulting just as one side thinking they are "ignorants/mundanes" and the other side thinking they are "wannabes/poser".

guess what mateys... i have thrown some ideas out in my own coven that confused and upset other members
to a latrge extent... even to the point of being warned i might be kicked out... but have made amends with all of them. WE AGREE TO DISAGREE!!! it's called maturity/respect.

the best thing for me about posting in the public forums as i previously stated was that i CAN BE HEARD. and i love the fact that there are some other folks on here like DABBLER who use logic and skepticism rather than group think mentality.

i also stated that if i ever stay on VR long enough on to run my own coven it will be ALL VOICES ACCEPTED. i'd rather associate with a variety of people than exclusively with a coven of sheep...

Not a bad plan, dont expect all of us to join, which is probably for the best anyway. the main reason I say that is that its a good idea for other covens to have a resident skeptic or two, keep things a little grounded.. also, can you imagine trying to organize a bunch of free thinkers? It would be like trying to herd cats!

It would be quit difficult to herd all these free thinkers and non comformist into one area, and it would be hard to get posts to generate more than the knowledge that is produced. Skeptism in the covens are their yet some seem to hold back and stir the pot for rules set to them on stuff. yet every once in awhile the arguements surface.

Challenges in life are abundant and in the main forum posts they are promenant, but every issue holds two sides and should be allowed as long as it pertains to the topic and not someone elses ignorance towards another.

See competiveness is one thing, conflicts based on issues that are emotional (under the pretense of spiritual/belief). people who frequently resource sensational press, and the peddlers of professed esoteric sources of identity.. how the flocks gather, once strayed from the masses, gathered for their fleecing, when will they feel the chaff.

Even people who share a common belief will splinter by something as simple as an interpretation (usually a loop hole ammendment) of how to perform a ritual.

Skeptics that I keep company with are visionary speculators, an hour with them (taking note of reference sources) is more fasinating then any badly narrarated digest pharanormal testimony.

well i dont know , i think we need to come to an understanding and stick with it...
What i mean by that is we can all be one thing or the other and still get along ...
I think if all are one side or the other the coven would be kind of boring...
I think i am a little open minded when it comes down to it but come on this is a vampire forum ...
If you belive or dont it all comes down to this can we all just get along in same coven ...

I have not seen this in the other covens? Huh must have missed that post. All I have seen is being unruly would not be tolerated and actions towards other coven members.

But that is only the logic of any culture is not tormenting or bashing family and friends.

Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you!

so calling those who don't believe Blind, and somehow ignorant of esotiric
gibberish.. I'd that consistent with how you wish to be treated, saying a f implying that people fear believing what others profess, is that how you would like to be do to?

Those who profess to be vampires fear people becoming tolesnt, and indifferent, they miss being stared at.. They confront others, insinuating that one respond in a aphtituc ways, to " Whaaa we are vampires, Live With it, be offended by my presents, do I can be appsled at your reaction.."

The Stellar Galaxic Carnival and Freak Show is open to skeptics who enjoy The history of sheep fleecing. It is a Sci-fi Group.. It is required that you either know an alien personally, or have a time travelers degree.

Wouldnt matter Cadre,its the same with any subject anywhere.Those who choose to listen and talk,will.One thing it might do that would be beneficial I think is free the main forum up of the same old arguments that every thread that shows an expressed intrest in a belief seems to end up in.Peeps get mad or insulted,and the whole conversation ends..nothing gained.

Well stated Oceanne, it would free up alot of the non essential forum posts of belief or foundations of lifes structure. yet for or against beliefs is what holds many morals in our culture.

A coven of free thinkers would to my imagination would be a tatical ploy for this site and others to banned the people together to defunck imiganation and beliefs of others

i look at both sides and than presume my only logic on what is presented. whether factional or fictional does it really matter. Yet some of the posts have infact hurt some people feelings and they refuse to post. Yet i like the challenge as many here. So the structure of it on a vampiric site seems to wash away others thoughts

Cadre, are you under the pretense that there real/actual people that are not imagining they are vampires? If so, the constant request for a definition as to their convictions (not belief in any way, please consider your use of the word) of their identity, based on a mythological being.

.............bat7777

define skeptic... do you mean that because there are some grownups on this site who REALLY believe that we are NOT vampires... that categorizes us as skeptics?
i like my pirate coven fine for the fact that there are only 10 members, personally see no reason to be in a coven that has a groupthink mentaliyt. that'd be like joining a church to feel comfy that the others around me had the same "faith" as me. im not so insecure that i feel threatened by other people having ideas different than mine. if i ever had a coven of my own - peoples positions on this that or whatever would be WIDE open.

and i would still post in the MAIN forums when i had time... why would i post for only a few others when i can have my take out there for anyone to see.

that should be one of the core notions of this site - free speech and individualism. who cares if my opinions rock someone ele's boat??? if i begin personally attacking people and calling them names or silly things of that nature, i have gone too far.

maybe i am "skeptical "of some things in this world based on experience/though/research/reason/reading.
thats called REALITY.
or free will if you dare...

maybe there should be a "coven of sheep" for all the peole on VR who REALLY are vampires, have 27 anime pix on thier profiles, and listen to lamb of himsmack mansontool switchvayne..........

HAhahahaha I like you bat7777. I actually agree. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it would at least single out all the argumentative people. AND I agree make a coven for sheep and stuff it with 97% of the people on here who ALWAYS start it out with "I was born in 1776 the year of the revolution..." or "Just message me and I'll tell you about me because I don't really like talking about me...." and have names like Biteme666, Akasha69, BloodyVomit, IkillYOU666. LOL because they LUST FOR BLOOD!!! LMAO!

Supernateral ? no abilities could give you what vampires are potrayed to have in the movies, we live and breathe and that is it.

If I choice to drink blood and not go out in dark, or sleep in a coffin, Than I percieve myself as vampire, Am I a vampire yes but only the definition as living my structured life as one. True vampire, like the the movies no and never will be.

Is that eaiser to see now. Much like the faith of religions,what ever religion you practice or live your life by. Not i or anyone else could disprove it too you for that is the structure within your life.

Bo you can not cloud the issue with a red herring, you keep saying vampires don't exist in the ..Hollywood sense.. Drop that, I am talking about people who profess to be vampires in any way, the fact that those who fail to offer any ammending definition suitable for their claim shows me that they have no criteria of their own. Except to tell people " No silly mundane, that is not what a vampire is." Now again I could care less what you proclaim vampires not to be, ( which they are only in myth), make your summary or remit your
demands to be " accepted", stop with the presumtious people fear us because vampires have Bren shown as monsters." " People are more annoyed by the trite patter.

Dabbler my both sided reasoning is that a lifestyle is bases of the structure of ones life. If you practice science or politics in every day life are you not considering your self a politician in away or a scientist. same aspect would and should be applied.

perception of the structure of life is a bases on what and how one percieves the life they choice. if they dress in black and consume blood and sleep in a coffin to say do they do not percieve themselves as a vampire.

Do I logically think that vampires of hollywood exist and all their heightened abilties. Give me abreak no my friend, they don't. Well untill one attacks me or turns me.

As a sociology major I have seen alot and reported alot on diverse cultures while at college and even a study (not by me) was done on the percepton of vampirc society.

So this is my bases on the vampire of todays culture, perception of the bases of fabled myths structuring the life style of an individual.

what we NEED is free speech and freewill

and thank the maker (as C3P0 would say) that we have that

it is HEALTHY to intellectually spar

and we are lucky that we can post WHATEVER WE WISH!

VR is fine as it is covenwise.... no dire need for a coven of skeptics... maybe we need a coven of people who are afraid of and confused by skeptics!

The coven of passive-agressive myth-abiding dreamers?
The coven of parasites and leeches?
The coven of likeminded borg assimilation?

2 things, bat7777.

We can't post whatever we wish. Everyone must abide by VR's terms of service.

And...

Freedom of Speech does not exist on the internet. On the Dark Network, we must follow Cancer's rules. This is his network.

LW your reasoning suggest that you beilieve everything others would have you believe, how many people seek to convince people, and then claim to only want that person to open their minds to " possibilities". As if once someone declares belief the questions end. selectivily scutinizing every interpretation .. What EXACTLY is it you want others to accept, and subscribe to?

Asking people to post what they believe , is presumtion..

Thrir are people who are liberated from the necessity of beliefs. After seeing so many people with fringe beliefs, declare other fringe beliefs irrational. As if believers question nothing. So the eclectic threaten those on both sides.

Personally think if you put all those of like mind in the same place then how it is possible to teach and help them grow within themselves.

Think we all have something to learn from one another and if dont open our minds, or are clumped up in a large group of like minds then it simply is not possible for our minds to open any further than they are.

Have to agree with what is already said in the way that its important to see two sides of the coin so to speak. To read and share our thoughts as individuals.

To share and learn is too gain knowledge, and we must see all aspects of the topic, Well stated lady.

For without reasoning or knowledge we are no more brilliant than the vague statement of a post. Yet we have learnd that the world is full of shades of color and just not one or two.

To learn is to see all aspects of the question, even if we doubt it we must assume there is more than we always assume to know.

Like the old saying goes " never under estimate your Opponent in a fight"
this could hold true to the logic of thought and learning.

Why not start a group for Skeptics over at the Sci-Fi section. You can find out the pros and cons yourself through moderating and, if it works out--when you reach level of Sire you can decide if you wish to start your own Skeptics Coven and will have some followers ready to follow.

Right Cadre,but I meant as an option.It was stated that you cant learn without opposition etc... if you kept disscussions in the coven forum,that might be the case to a degree.But there is the open forum for that if needed...hard core skeptisism could be kept in there if it got too offensive(to some) in the main.Lighter arguments..well,wherever.
I dunno,I see more pros than cons on this one.

As I do Oceanne, I think it would help alot, The basis of learning all angels of a topic. Would be quit boring going to forums and see


" I believe this to be right or I agree" And not any more info presented.

Whaa nobody takes fantasy seriously anymore, how about exercisi g your imagination, and creativity, instead of grandizing professed knowledge of beliefs. Some people take ever thing as could be.. If I hear someone say.. Keep an open mind again I an going to urinate in their open mind.

Just because your are slaves to beliefs, and unable to accept life as is, does not mean every one( you do realize most beliefs place you in a divided minority right?) cares about, or cares to confabulate with people who obviousy don't want to define their professed beliefs. Yea claim to have seen.. Experience.. Had a cousin who had a neighbor.. But then are you believing, or convinced? Hiding BS claims behind beliefs is chicken crap.

Some might be slaves to beliefs Dab,but not all.Some simply like to research things they find interesting,yet dont want to just fall into believing it all "just cause"and are many are still out on any given subject until they find,or are presented with evidence showing otherwise.
I for one am one of those peeps.

Well states oceanne, the presumtion that rules believers is that everyone who doesn't believe what they are fascinated by, never believed, or studied what they believe, and resigned to simply imagining such things, lime the majority of people do.

This constant implying that somehow to say, "I can imagine.." is beneath them, is rather insulting to those who are creative, and prefer to not " What if" their life away. Everyone goes through that phase, irrational beliefs, supported with adopted dogma.

Telling people things that they may have been more devoted to at one time then the shallow presentation made by novice know-it- alls who cannot even answer inquiries without saying, " I don't have to prove anything.." " My personal experience.." and all other redundant evasive cliches.

How about this.. Those that claim to want others to open their minds, attempt to expand theirs.

Like many college classes we are at the start to study in breath, short yet sweet analosis of the topic, yet as we further our education we are basically in depth at that point.

Many follow a topic in a few researched books, fable or fiction and that is what is impressed in their minds on belief, In order to become more in Depth we must travel all avenues pros and cons of fable, logic and myth.

People suspend applying critical thinking when they adopt beliefs. You don't Beleive everything do you? You don't subscibe to every belief do you? If I said, " I believe you are delusional, and lack creativity", does that it is any more true, or possible, would you want people to be skeptical, or would you much rather have people extrapulate on how delusional they believe you are?

The argument that you usually are the one to start. "well, i DON'T believe in this..."
"well, I DO believe in this...." Do you ever have any fun? Or are you stuck behind your desk in the office all day reading reports to your boss?

I exercise imagination, while you strap yourself to rehashed beliefs. So you do believe everything then?

hey man do it, who cares what others think, if u think its a good idea, try it out

Do I adhere to every belief, well no, that would be pointless, But we do look and research anything that may spark our interests. Just a common falacy in humans to know more.

Is it wrong to research and make opionions on fact and belief or the topic. no, what happens when fiction or the myths comes to play and information is not abundant. than many of the points we consider is based on faith or our own belief in that it could happen.

Admit it the whole occult is based on overactive imaginations. People that are all to ready to profess some unseen mystic force , then they want others to believe they have power over that unseen force.

Why ignore the post in which I mention that even Believers are not in agreement.

You say much by what you chose to respond to.

I have no beliefs I subscribe to, this inconviences those who do.

I ask again please consider answering. Do you presume that all who do not believe, never studied, or believed?

(here we go again...)

why do we need a "coven of skeptics"???

i have argued (sometimes with sarcasm & bite) against this point since this thread began...

THERE ARE FREE THINKERS ON THIS SITE - hopefully all of us!!! that is one of the beauties of VR - individualism.

covens are (at least one would hope) not dogmatic borg-like caves of assimilation where everyone agrees 100%

there is NOTHING that says in VR you must be a believer of vampires, mythology, aliens, nazi ideology, mandatory sterilization, that twilight is good literature, that 30 bullets to chemical park symphony is a good band.

why is it that the only people ranting and complaining about people exercising free will and beliefs of others often JUST HAPPEN to seemingly want to believe in vampires as well?

sorry to put it this way kids... but i think you believers, so to speak, feel confused and threatened that some people on VR are skeptical. as in "how dare they... this is our super top secret society and some people DON'T believe in vampires????"

that is so third grade, or maybe sixth grade.

GET OVER YOURSELF!!!

move beyond Freud's "Id" stage. open your mind by accepting that there are all types on this planet...

accept that you are part of a microscopic minority even privileaged enough to have the leisure time to IMAGINE yourself a vampire, much less than get on a computer and babble to 10,000 others about it. there are 6.2 billion others living their lives WITH THEIR OWN OPINIONS/BELIEFS. every one of these people is as REAL as you are - "vampire" or not.

********************************************

we don't need to stuff a few active voices into the same coven because some of you get all touchy-feely that certain voices in the forum aren't "I AGREE I AGREE I AGREE".

and if we do need such a coven... like i said... than we likewise need THE COVEN OF VAMPIRE SHEEP.

we NEED neither. we need to be ourselves and accept others. i laugh at the though of "real" immortal vamps!!!

hell - i think vampires are cool and have for 30some years. but i'm also grown up enough to let other people here to have their own take on that without being so insecure to throw a rod when someone questions the existence of A B C or D.

we NEED to be ourselves.
we HAVE freewill.

and i think VR will be quite fine if some of us are simply here to learn, spar verbally, and share ourselves. the whole site does NOT need a dogmatic mentality of "i'm more vampire than you...nah nah nah nah nah!!!". are we not adults???

Coven of skeptics would be good, and we see all the time here the ability of free thinkers and their idealogy.

Yet lets percieve this on both sides, for those who may make fictional content may infact be relating their own ability to express their free will on their point of the topic. Right or wrong it is what they know and not a researched topic indepth.

Lets not lose track over this it works both ways.

Exercise your imagination, and creativity, instead of adopting rigid belief, or even vague beliefs. Some are here to actually critique Monsters Tales, I would hazard to guess that far more can creatively present a vampire, better then those who profess to be somehow vampires can present their amended definition.

Surly you (those who ID as vampires) realize that you are rather distruptive to those who do actually have imaginations. It appears people dont want to be accepted for their beliefs, they want people to confront them about those beliefs, if not reacting to skeptics, then in fighting with factions in their belief/definition. Stop hidden behind belief, when your reason, and lack of critical thinking application fail.

All your "opinions" are adopted from others who adopted, and adapted them to Mystify others (mystify meaning "Be in awe of me, I have no social skills, but I am a creature (but not like the ones in hollywood,)" see how retarded that sounds?

I don't think they want to be confronted about their beliefs. I think that when confronted they lose the ability to analyse the imigination of their belief and the structure of the life they lead, Thus becoming confused or feel like that they are hammered for this belief.

Free will and imigination becomes jumbled and lost in idealogy and fiction.

Not understanding me?

You pertained that they wantd to be confronted about their beliefs, yet I do not think so, I think they post what they feel is right or what they think is right and when confronted about their free will or imigination of a topic than they back down because they are confused or that somone has gone against there belief.

So the idea or topic in their mind does not always express what they may type.

Beliefs are restraining, the person then must declare what intpretation the accept within that belief system.. where is the free thinking in that? your reasoning is lost. Can people just imagine something that has, and is nothing more then imagination, based on some superstition.. fiction.. Vampires Myth, not a belief, those who profess to be vampires (Not the Movie kind, but offering no definition) get this? No vampires exist.. in any way.. people can imagine.. something I now doubt you are capable of admiting you do.. as if being creative (without beliefs dictating anything) is beneath you, and others here.. so.. errr.. Even your "opinions are adopted, all you do is counter post, never bringing nothing to the table but"We are so vampires." These things are unknown" it is cliche'

My friend dabbler I look at if from a socialogy point and that is it. a structure within our structure. you talk of free will and imigination, yet your words become blurred. I am not a vampire, nor do I claim any aspect on that lines. I am here to gain knowledge on aspects I myself knows that I may be low in.

Yet free will if offereed on any scale should be rationalized and pondered wether right or wrong. For if scientists had done this and the common folk called bull on it, where would idealogy be at today.

The scope works both waays and rational thought produced by the individuals are the keys in some cases to more pondering thoughts of the topic and not the solution. Every thing in life is not a true and false topic, but an array of different thoughts given to a solution.

RE:"Beliefs are restraining, the person then must declare what intpretation the accept within that belief system.. where is the free thinking in that? your reasoning is lost. Can people just imagine something that has, and is nothing more then imagination, based on some superstition.. fiction.. Vampires Myth, not a belief, those who profess to be vampires (Not the Movie kind, but offering no definition) get this? No vampires exist.. in any way.. people can imagine.. something I now doubt you are capable of admiting you do.. as if being creative (without beliefs dictating anything) is beneath you, and others here.. so.. errr.. Even your "opinions are adopted, all you do is counter post, never bringing nothing to the table but"We are so vampires." These things are unknown" it is cliche'

I don’t understand where are you trying to go with this Dab.. I think you above anyone know that this is unnecessary beyond this point, you have tried in numerous threads to crack their "imagination”, “beliefs" or "insanity" and it hasn't work at this height, why do you keep on the quest to find a different response if you are only going to get that same things over and over again; perhaps if you want to accept yourself that there is no such thing as a “vampire” then you should look for it yourself or walk away with your own accounts, you can't change a whole website proclaiming themselves to be "vampires" with factible reasoning of your own ideals, and calling them lunatics in other words isn't going to change their mind or make them show you any evidence of their convictions. In fact is just making you look more ignorant than anyone in here, people have their ways, some live in dreamland others are more rooted on the ground, is the way of everyone, if they want to put capes and suck others blood and they are not taking over the planet then let them be. Same goes to Gods, UFOs, unicorns, troll and all supernatural believers.

You base your beliefs in science, but science isn't a absolute source of truth, or the only thing to grasp on just because is the scientifically best proven of them all, if it was the universal truth then science would be the religion of the planet by default and the only to adore since is the only truth, Science is just theories as all the other beliefs we hold, you can't prove anything with few chemicals and findings underground to make your ideals the most truthful of them all, just because you have a link on Wikipedia doesn't make you the best source of sanity and prove of everything/everyone wrong. If there is no proof of alien, vampires and trolls then scavenge the whole universe and this planet in every hole and then when you bring me the absolute truth i will subscribe to it, otherwise is uncertain to grasp on few scientific projects as an absolute evidence of everything, and things that are mystery of the planet is just people seeing things that are not there or hallucinating, is the easiest gateway of not holding a evidence to prove them wrong. Everything that people have seen through history is a misinterpretation of the mind, another area where science isn't completely accurate in the studies. Then again is all mental problems, that’s the proof they give when they don’t know how to respond to every unexplainable beyond science accounts.. So you along everyone in here have the same right to speculate and debate about everything with free will because at the end we all hold the same amount of evidence for the accounts we all discuss in base of our beliefs..None

So I suggest you post your ideals and facts in a healthy debate, but stop making other seems like ignorant/stupid people that doesn’t know anything about science or doesn’t have a grasp on reality. Everyone has a story of why they grasp on in their ideals/beliefs/insanity, deep inside their personal psyche is what makes them think and act like they do, and no one can change people by force, each one of them can learn in their falls or never learn at all, it’s all within each and every individual will to do so.

But snubbing those who imagine without dogmatic restraints gets rather egotistical sounding. So if they wish their precious beliefs/delusions/ ect. They should respect those who simple wish creativem, imaginative content, rather then grandeous hyperbole passed as fact, and opinion.

True but you will have to change the world to do that or simply ignore the opposers of your stream, going against the current will only bring discomfort rather than reasonable exchange of ideas, maybe this isn’t the site for imaginative/inspiring ideas with factible reasoning for a debate to take place, saying that maybe we have more sensationalist than individuals with capabilities to defend coherently their ideals with rational response, so all we can do is go along or try to spark something along the way, frictioning will only resort as a deserted forum, in time will have people feeling restricted to share their experiences and mind, and that will get boring.

That and people bashing Movies with variations on vampires, any Hollywood version of a ghost story.. Not critiqued for it's fictional value.. but by it's lack of " fact".

I understand where you are coming from, but the only way to prove someone wrong is by finding this "supernatural" accounts for yourself, and showing them back to them as a false interpretation, it can go both ways you can find yourself something interesting on your studies along the way or you can find proof of how "delusional “everyone in this site really is, in the end is more of proving yourself what really is real and what is not, if the proof we look for in here is in a website/page or link then it would already be adsesible for everyone to read and have as substantial evidence for this presented accounts, but all there is out there is things you will end up thinking is bullshit, conspiracy theories, delusional reasoning or false interpretation and camera tricks or magic/illusions.

As for all this claims of adopting nomenclatures and fixing Lore and fictional things that appears on books/cinematic and myths to explain their personal beliefs and “traits”, we already tried making people reason about and aspiring to get a proof of their beliefs for their ”special abilities” but everyone seems to evade that route, is either you believe them or not, no more than this, so once again the only way to know this is either meet someone like this and try to understand what are their psyche and interpretation behind all this or walk away and ignore the crowd “delusional “convictions, the last one is the most ignorant one, I would suggest to give the other one a chance, later you can separate what might be true, what is not true, what is a terrible truth and what is absolutely delusional behavior.

There should be a seperation between, claims, and beliefs. Example if you believe in sock gnomes, no problem here.((I can relate to the application of that belief) but if a person says they captured a sick gnome.. That is a claim not a belief.

I really could care less what people believe , thats personal, along with a persons reason for not believing. But when people take offense related to claims they make being challenged, and they allude to their beliefs being attacked.. That is pathetic. They are not believing they are psychic, vampires, ect. They are claiming learn the difference people.

Saying " I can imagine how ...would...." is something else to consider.


I will no longer post in the Main Forum. Let those who would convince people of their magical powers, or what makes them a vampire different from all Hollywood vampires.

As I see it the reasoning behind not offering definition is directly connectedto them not wanting to be refuted by other on the site.

On the front of VR it plainly states that this site is a "resource for the vampire community." It doesn't say those interested in vampires. It may be a misconception by the way it is written. It does say that. This site is made up of a large number of people with a wide range in age and things they have been exposed to in their long or short lives. By stating such he is reaffirming there is a community but not necessarily that he believes all the viewpoints. When they come here they are met with rebuff. I feel that is demeaning.

It is fine I think to decide to have a skeptics coven. Covens are modern to the vampire community and really associated superstitously through certain views of people in the past to witches and NOT vampires.

Coven
The word cov⋅en used as a noun:
Pronunciation: [kuhv-uh n, koh-vuh n]
An assembly of witches, especially a group of thirteen.

Origin:
1500–10 for sense “assembly”; 1655–65 for current sense; var. of obs. covent assembly, religious group, CONVENT
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coven
(dictionary.com unabridged)


Therefore you can consider the covens here an "assembly" or gathering of people and nothing more into a smaller subgroup than general membership. There are rules you must follow but beyond that no one is forced to believe anything let alone that anyone is a vampire even if they say so. What I think should not be excused is rudeness openly because you don't believe something else someone else does. This community does exist of people from all walks of life and in the tens of thousands. It is big in the US, UK and Australia and in Europe but my knowledge of what goes on in Europe is lacking. So I am no expert in their Houses and other organizations on the continent. The modern culture is intermixed with other subgroups as well. They are NOT all goth which is a misconception.

A quote concerning coven: (from an article I wrote)

“There is little evidence that covens actually existed before the twentieth century, and much speculation that they did not exist. However, there is testimony in the witch trial of Isabel Gowdie in 1662, in which reference is made of a coven of 13 witches. The term became almost unknown until the 1950s, when it was popularized by Gerald Gardner.”
http://www.blue-moon-manor.com/Glossary/coven.html

There are references like Pickingill, ect but they are few and far between and always associated to witchcraft in some way and not vampires. Grouping into covens by the now existing culture is modern. I wouldn't worry about the word. Just because you are in a group entitled coven is no different than saying club or family grouping.

Dude the conflict here isn't about accepting a cover for skeptics, they can do one if they wish to, is more about not making it and connecting everyone as a whole or accepting the others in the existing ones even if everyone has a different views and beliefs; thats what the argument is all about. Correct me if im wrong, but thats what i've read all this time...

define "community".... does one need to believe they are a vampire - or they are not part of the VR community? community to me in a general sense means a gathering - and i have seen nowhere defined RULES that one must believe in anything particular. i do recall a "rule" demanding that no one bash ANY religion... which to me shows that the core of this site is based on being ACCEPTING of others. even those "nonbelievers" or "skeptics" or whatever some call people like me for getting on the forums suggesting PEOPLE OPEN THEIR MINDS.

as far as covens go... maybe in a dictionary it states a "gathering of 13 witches"... but here on VR there are FORCED INDUCTIONS. so what - are we going to have a "coven of skeptics" and FORCE members to join? that makes no sense. that's not community to me at all. that's like having an "election" with one political party on the ballet!!

there is often little to link members of a coven aside from the membership and "rules" and crest. its not as if this coven or that one meets deep in the woods for their top secret vampire rites of passage. does everyone in a particular coven agree with everything and everyone in that coven? if that was the case than why do most members change covens multiple times???

if someone goes and starts a "coven of skeptics" and forces some REAL VAMPIRES into it we're going to have quite a dilemma....

VR is a WEBSITE and as close as it's going to get beyond there is forums/messages/etc. maybe a few really affluent people on the site (not the thousands of teenagers) meet up on the annual cruise.

Believers don't believe what everyone who professes the same beliefs claims relating to that belief.

So how open are believers mind.. really?

Some Nonbelievers have once believed. They may still believe, but be less acceptable to sensational claims of experiences. Even people who are interested in hearing more details accounting claimed experiences/ observational affirmations are commonly rebuked for inquiring.

To often I see people present the accounts of others as their own, changing nothing but the "My friend and I .." To My sister and I.. "

True dabbler, not everyone holds the same belief as others, thats what makes us human. we are unique in every way and not robots with the same belief and structure in life as others.

Great you mentioned that, now care to post on how many claims you hear? And how much you believe not the persons belief, but their claim?

Like you I hear claims everyday, yet do I believe the stories, no. yet when something sparks my interest i search it out for my own self indulgience.

working at the college many ideas come to be on papers and we must decipher the logic in which the person comes to speak of. but It is not my job to rationalize all the experiences that people write about. some I just laugh at.

I have no closed mind, yet others may say that, I value the thoughts of others and wether I accept them than thats me, yet I do not turmoil myself over others beliefs. I listen and put the toughts in to play, yet if i choose to you that info than I deem it not know one else. And if I choose that the information to me is bogus. I look the other way.

Yet in college we have to put our little notes on them, asking how the information came to be or sources much like you dbbler, yet if it is a inside judgement on their call we can not trace the info and accept it as belief.

My point, even believers are selective in what they endorse relating to their beliefs " teachings", as well as other beliefs.

This sounds like the age of speculation/mythological/superhero/spiritualistic era has ended; now everything we think/say has to be proven, not saying is only here but also out there... LOL you can't get away with murder/convictions/sightings/feelings/etc.. without blaming an external agent anymore.

Wether you accept a persons belief , or not their account of experiences should be scrutinized.

How many people distrupt gatherings by telling grandized testimony, implying that they are more studied in text then others?
Would any spiritual gathering allow that? No!

When a person simply states after someone ask, do you believe in (example) Fairies.", and a person replies," No I don't, I am do like fairy stores though."

Then the person continues " Well thats what I believe, and you should keep an open mind about fairies, because I saw one.. " that shows a desperation.

So how do you respond to people with Fringe beliefs, in an already Fringe belief system?

Is it not obvious eventually that people want to be the center of attention..
That they want skeptics to say" I believe that is possible." THEN WHAT!

we can learn from both point of views because we always learning and evolving and making it interesting when it come to the pro and the cons of the matter.. we dont want it to be like herds we just want that differences that make it unique and intriguing

Re:"Is it not obvious eventually that people want to be the center of attention..
That they want skeptics to say" I believe that is possible." THEN WHAT!"

I understand your point quite clearly but- where else do you want to go with it? the game ends right there, can't you say; "ok dude i dont judge you but i think you are going out of sense on your perception of things, you should look for other explanations for that assumptions" and thats what you can tell them and walk away, To go against the current is like hitting your face with pressure water gun, the whole world believes in something otherworldly than in other factible possibilities, our goverment system is based in morals adopted from christianity, with all that comes economy, infrastructure, education, laws, order which are based upon the very thing that hold our lives and actions together; "In god we trust" and so is everything that controls us, that is the staff that controls the sheep, only black sheeps step away from the multitude and are seen as closed minded or without spiritualism/creed. As i said in some other thread we are a specie in our teen stage, correlating the notion in base of maturity, not saying that if we change our beliefs to science is going to make us grandfathers but, science is starting to boom, and everyone in time will have the chance to prove everything without limitations, and then we can separate in absolutes what could be possible and what is pure imagination/delusion of every individual experience.

I believe PsiVampire has a good point...and I quote:

"Why not start a group for Skeptics over at the Sci-Fi section. You can find out the pros and cons yourself through moderating and, if it works out--when you reach level of Sire you can decide if you wish to start your own Skeptics Coven and will have some followers ready to follow."

I just think his suggestion was lost in the heated discussion and wonder who might take up the suggestion.

There is actually a group for people who don't believe in the paranormal type crap on SFS. However, it's rather dead now.

Perhaps I will start a coven of people who actually appreciate fiction about vampires, and ghost. People who can develop character types for vampires.

The problem is that everyone is skeptical about something, whether it be religion, paranormal, supernatural or a host of other beliefs. So what kind of skeptics are you basing this on?

Everyone has the right to their own personal beliefs without fear of recrimination from anyone. Also, isn't having a coven just for skeptics just another form of discrimination which so many of us are fighting against?

Not and intentional form of discrimination but when you think about, isnt not having a coven for skeptic's discrimination in itself? two way street here :P

I like it. Stick'em in there and throw away the key. Ha-ha-ha!