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debate



how many here feel that there are some things that are not for all eyes to see. If they can not find it then they did not look hard enuff. there are to many out there trying to cause us harm as if it is not hard just being us with the life we live. Many do not understand who and what we are. I feel to put all of our ways in the open can cause harm.
That is why there are inner and outer teachings so all can not see. yes there are things out there on the web but they are hard to find for some, I feel that if they truly wish to know of what and who we are then they should look harder. if things are handed to us we tend to make light of said things and miss use them. how do you feel I wish to know.

I agree.... We truly appreciate something if we have learned it the hard way really... and that if we are just given it then we will not fully understand it like we should... kind of like well.. here is my example though it is a bit more material.. Ever seen my super sweet 16... most of the girls on there were given everything and did not have to work for a thing and they are the worst examples of a human being I have ever seen in my life. @_@

i believe such inner teahings should be sought out by whoever wants to learn of them. only someone truly interested and with some previous knowledge would know where to look. Comming across this information is rarw and most are held from it for a reason such as they are not ready or cannot handle these new teachings so they are withheld by what ever powers may be. the synod, your adra or lord, or maybe even your parents if you are Dhampyre either way if you really want it i think all should be alowed to get it but they hould have to seek it for them selves. no one can tell you how hard it is or how easy. This remins me a Monk in tibet...

A new student at the temple sees water being dumped upon some of the older students in the snow apperently for training purposes. The new student ask, "Sensei is the water cold" The sensei then takes a bucket of water and dumps it on the new students head. The new student is baffeled to why his teacher would treat a new student so harshley . lets see iuf the next poster can solve this story and i belive if they can they will be on the same page as me over this issue of the fact that the infinite pursuit of knowedge should be equivolent to the amount of work used to obtain it.

Find it out for yourself...experience is, after all, the best teacher...

Totally - experience is the best teacher. But mysteries are meant to be learned only by the truly adept.

Seek and ye shall find. This maxim still holds true today.

true indeed. I find that just giving info not know who you are giving it to can cause harm that is why there are steps to take before we make moves. what I mean by that is the person you giver info may seem harmless till it comes back and bites you in the ass. like those who show no respect for the rules of our way of life or what paths others are on.. yes it is a good thing to wish to teach but know who you are teaching and what you are teaching and were it comes from!

|I am wiling to share what i have learned with only a very few restriced persons... cause i feel that all these years of self learning are a tresure... and its not shared by everyone... i am still seeking and i think that i will never stop actually...

I don't know what this thread is about

I think even if you do just *hand* people true gnosis, they will have no idea how to process it or what to do with it, unless they are a true seeker to begin with. If they are, they will find the knowledge themselves when they are ready for it. *hell* it will come to THEM!

ok the thread is about this in the vampyric community there are things that are for all to see and things that are not. and knowing who we are sharing the info we have with. and how I feel about it and I wish to see what others think about it aswell

I believe in the free flow of information.

some information can be dangerous of course,
but i believe the greater danger is when things are kept secret.
Who gets to say who can have this information?

Certain information can be harmful but if used in a certain way,
however it rarely causes a problem.
You can learn to become a hacker just from online information.
yet there isnt too much problems from these and not everyone is a hacker.
Martial arts can be learned to a good degree online,
however not everyone is a martial artist and i have seen to evidence that this information has caused more violence.

The word Gnosis stands for wisdom. Like Raz I agree that things that apply to wisdom in general, apply equally to specialized wisdom as well.

There will always be people that are looking for a quick route to power and knowledge no matter what the subject. There will also always be those that abuse whatever knowledge they find. As much as this saddens me, I think it is wrong to obscure any truth so much the the (admittedly rare) true seekers cannot find it.

That said I don't think it should be handed out to everyone like some sort of vending machine either. If you aren’t willing to do the research then you don’t really want to know. But things should be out there somewhere so that those that *do* can find them.

I agree 100% with what you have stated

MercyManic

( I think even if you do just *hand* people true gnosis, they will have no idea how to process it or what to do with it, unless they are a true seeker to begin with. If they are, they will find the knowledge themselves when they are ready for it. *hell* it will come to THEM )

Good point my brother Stabb I still feel the same. you both are right who? I feel it should be talked about 1st with the older members before hand we have lived this life longer then the young there fore we have a feel for what is what.

Vulash, do you actually have a point to make?

One respects what they learn, when they do the work. Ask questions, do research. But to have things handed to you, its not appreciated as much. It's alright to lead someone in the right direction, however if you do the work for them..They haven't learned to be independant and do for themselves. Education is always a good thing.

Trial and error, education, and studying, learning, and teaching....as well as what life experience can give us. People earn respect from others as well as what only living and experiencing can do...someone who is 30 should know much more than someone who is 16 about life and choices.

Ok here is my counterpoint to what seems to be the common opinion. Keep in mind I know nothing about the actual "information".

It seems like you guys are mistaking "curiosity" as having an effect on "worthyness". Nearly anyone can research. Someone that planed to abuse this specific information would still do so even if they had to research many hours and practice? many hours.

I typically agree that working for something makes it that much sweeter, and being handed things can spoil someone, but I don't see that wisdom as being relavent in this case. I think that perhaps you would be suprised at how many people would embrace, learn from, and use wisely - this information (again maybe not since I don't knwo it) if they were taught, but don't actively search it out because they've always been lead to believe it is impossible by science and nearly everyone else. Not conforming to the ideas that are presented to you as fact your entire life is not necessarily a sign of intelligence and vica versa - though I think some people think it is. There is nothing wrong with believing something that has been passed down by our collective race for years. Obviously each of us as individuals cannot crosscheck every fact we are taught - this memory and teaching is part of what makes us human, especially since our base instincts are far weaker then other species of animals.

Also - not everyone that is given stuff takes it for granted and abuses it, I will grant you that a majority do, but I've met many that aren't like that, and were given stuff.

So to answer your question - it sounds a bit overly secretive to me, but I do agree some discression is in order considering what I"m guessing you're talking about - thought not quite as much as obviously there is since I'm clueless and a pretty well versed fellow compared to an average person. Also keep in mind information should never be horded as a means of considering yourselves superior for possessing it. I'm most definately not accusing anyone in this thread of that - but people do do that, and since we are on the topic I thought it worth noting.

There is a difference between "Secret Knowledge" and "Knowledge of the Secret." People horde the first that I mentioned but it is only within the inner circle that know of the second. As it should be. For it is earned by Fire and always Honored.

I believe that the ones searching shall truly find if they are truly devoted to their studies.

Of course the secrets of the inner teachings will not be found easily...they are indeed secrets, are they not ?

My lords and ladies, its the information that we find by our own studies that shall bring us knowledge

The information which is found easily is as easily forgotten as any other information found easily.

True studies, and honest work makes the hardest soldier.

I agree with DarkestDesires. Im trying to understand this from a total life point or a Vampyric point of view. I have learned thru life experiences. I have been ripped off and then again I have had many treasured friends. So to me its a 50 - 50 deal.

Vul said it

Also - not everyone that is given stuff takes it for granted and abuses it, I will grant you that a majority do, but I've met many that aren't like that, and were given stuff.

I like thatty Vul.

Like many have debated above in thier views.
Knowledge can be handed to the masses, yet only those ready to learn, see and understand gain benifit from it.

As an example of this i shall use part of the proccess needed to reach the statehood of the Dali Lama.

The one chosen or brought forth in presentaition to be the next Dali Lama has to pass certian rituals and trials. one of these is to answer corectly 40 pluss odd ridles. each ridle being harder than the one before it.

the very first of these is "what is the sound of one hand clapping"

just from this first riddle you can see that by the time you get to the last one they are very very very hard to solve.

the reasoning behind this is so the monks know the chosen one is ready to read and understand the great ancient text and be able to view the world without tunnel vission.

so i put it to you, "if the knowledge to the answers to all the riddles was given to you, do you think that this would help you understand the great texts."

or do you think that you could only understand the great texts if you are cleaver enough to have solved the riddles yourself ?

i believe information should always be freely availuable yet only those of worth to improve on it should be brought into the inner circle.

I can understand that reasoning in light of my other post Phear for that type of thing

We respect and protect the things we earn more than the things we are given. The things we are given must be cherished too. Things like our heritage, love, and friendship. When I finish a book, a feeling of accomplishment come over me. The same thing happens when I am at the gym and I can lift more weight or run longer. I know I'm getting better and that will really boost one's confidence.

And what face did you have before you were born? These are Zen Mantras, dude. 40 riddles indeed. Your not in the inner circle are you? lol. Don't believe what anyone tells you. geesh

hehe...excellent point BillyTheJust.
But to come forward towards the inner circle one also must carry noticeable amounts of information on beforehand...some do, and some dont.

Is it up to you and me to decide who carries enough ?

Our voice only counts as one and two among masses, will we be heard ?

The "inner circle" is usually a complete one, to join an inner circle one must most often have something useful to add to this, problem is only the inner circle can know and decide whats needed.

So the every other creature out there will have to know this, and look for the next useful thing, through studies.
In this to reach enlightenment.

Only then

This is getting ridiculous. You can debate all you want, but on one front this point is moot. Those who seek shall find.

Vampire Rave is but one of many sites whose goal is to be a resource for those who seek knowledge.

Putting information here does not discount information found in other websites, books, or communities.

The seekers will find what they are looking for, no matter where the knowledge is.

P.S. Nara did nothing wrong posting the link to the website which featured the vampric alphabet because that website owned the rights to that artwork and WANTED the work to be shared.