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Years ago I started think about one question. Which one cross was created erlier, celtic cross or the christian one? I think it was celtic cross. Celts came centuries before Jesus...

:: waits patiently for The Trinity (Cancer, ElderDaniel and Wraith) to pop up with copious ammounts of info for this thread ::

Lorandel, this is an interesting thread because I would like to know also! I am not sure but I think the cross symbol itself is representative of what is good (lots of banners and flags bear this symbol) and us Celts only added the circles as they symbolise the circle of life we believe it. That and well Celtic art as well.

Not only that.. but there is also the Holy Trinity to consider back from the days when the Bible was written. The Holy Trinity was visualised in the shape of the cross..ie. The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

At first glance I can't find any references to the Cross in the Old Testament, but I know the Cross is described in the New Testament as an upright post with a transverse beam on which victims of execution were nailed: used by the Romans and is a symbol of Christianity.

The crucifix came first, and when the Celts were being converted a cross was made that showed the stories of the bible in a way the Celts understood as they could not read, so the cross incorporated the celtic designs to get their attention.

On a side note they also changed the dates certain festivals were to take place so as to coincide with celtic celebrations so eventually they were subverted and the Christian side of things became the majority reason for the celebrations.

Winks! and giggles, at Daires brilliant interpretation and says, "Well y'know us Irish are famous fer telling stories"

However, I know several Irish people who would turn in their graves at the thought of their ancestors being so stupid that they couldn't even read! Hmmm, but maybe they were the ones who immigrated ;)

They couldn’t read because the Celts had no written language, they had runes. So the stories in the bible were communicated to them through pictures which were carved into the cross.

and the faerys live at the bottom of my garden

Here is a little research I did on the artwork which can be found in Celtic Crosses.

"Much of Celtic design is based upon intricate interlaced patterns, sometimes with knotwork and spirals. Some is dated to as early as 700 BC during the Iron Age, (Hallstatt "C") but most sources identify the La Tene culture (480 BC) as start of the Celtic expansion. La Tene is a site in Switzerland (next to Lake Neuchatel) where a large number of Celtic objects have been found. Because this site was occupied over a long period it has provided an important view on Celtic life. As in most cultures, Celtic design has been through fashion and change. Historians have divided Celtic design into four main headings :

Early Style : emerging around 480 BC. Utilises geometric motifs drawn from Greek or Oriental influence.

Waldalgesheim : after about 350 BC. Named after a princely chariot grave. Developed from Early style but generally more intricate and detailed.

Plastic Style : after about 290 BC. Animals and humans are incorporated into designs, often in stylised and three dimensional form.

Sword Style : after around 190 BC. The period marked a change to more abstract designs, often based on previous styles, but flatter and more drawn out in form."


Not only was the Celtic Cross confined to Ireland, but the same shape of cross Lorandel was designed by the Welsh and by the Cornish.

I know nothing about the Celtic Cross. However, a regular cross (not a crucifix, calling a cross a crucifix is a misstatement. A crucifix is a cross with an image of the corpse of Jesus hanging from it) was simply a form of Roman execution that dates to when Israel became a Roman province.

Crucifixion remained a form of Roman punishment until the mid fourth century.

Although not used by the Romans until Israel's annexation, crucifixion has earlier Greek roots.

Dan can chime in on the relationship between the Cross and the Ankh (crux ansata), as he is more educated on that subject than I.

Daire... weren't the runes, Celtic, Germanic or otherwise, a form of written language?

Regarding Celtic Crosses vs. Roman Crosses, I do believe the Celtic Cross has been around hundreds of years before Christ, but it's use was firmly planted in history when the Christians came along. So Daire's story is true, but surely the Christians used the common Celtic crosses there were around to show the Celts what the crucifix that Christ died on looked like.

As for the ankhs, I will defer to the article I wrote for Cancer's fine magazine, unless anyone has specific questions.

However, I will say that I believe the ankh is much older, as a religious/magickal symbol, than any cross. It gets the latin name "crux ansata" to describe the ankhs they found as a "handle-shaped cross".

D

Thank you all very much.

“Irish is a Celtic language. A parent language of Irish was spoken by people first referred to by Greek philosophers more than 5 centuries before Christ”

In Ireland before the Celts ascended into the land, we had the Tuatha (the Druids) living here and yes they communicated through speech, and other means such as the Runes, and there was no proof of written language in Ireland until the Celts made their invasion approximately 300 years BC.


Irish, often called Gaelic or (Gaeilge) in Irish, has the oldest written literature of all the surviving Celtic languages. Irish is closely related to the other surviving Celtic languages such as: Scottish Gaelic, Manx, and to a lesser degree, Welsh, Breton and Cornish”


With the invasion of the Celts from Europe, they brought their wonderful artwork skills to the Emerald Isle with them, and these were impassioned into the crosses and so the Celtic Cross was established.


This is clearly dated BC and so, therefore, long before the days of the Roman Empire. Like Cancer, I agree that Crosses + are just that. Crosses. Celtic Crosses are crosses but with a circle surrounding the cross. This circle symbolises the Circle of Life which is synonymous with the Irish Druid beliefs of reincarnation and the circle of life and death.

Crucifixes are crosses with the nailed Christ on them. Celtic crosses are crosses with Irish artwork engraved on.

This artwork has been proven to be around since the Iron age, and to this day a Celtic Cross from that era still rests in the museum of Dublin.


Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam.
(A country without a language is a country without a Soul)

there is evidence of the cross as a symbol from Egypt and in crete that dates to the fifteenth century BC. It originally (they think) meant three basic symbols. The centre, the circle and the square. Although if interested look up the Thessaloniki Greek cross's, Cool shit!

I agree, its impossible to trace either cross prior to Iron Age days to see which came first. It sounds a bit like the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" syndrome. But possibly Cancer, Dan, or Wraith will have the answer to that one :)

The chicken came first, silly. But you should have seen the cro-magnon chicken. Uglier than a vulture that one. ;-)

D

eerrr, but but.. didn't the chicken gorw from an egg D? *emmy taps her lip* I taint seen one of those chickens.. runs quikcly to google gooogle dooo.

Hahaha!! that was hilarious Colonel Daniel !! I have a feeling that I am NEVER gonna stop calling you that..

*Salutes* and whimpers bout the stem cells.

Can I get those stem cells extra crispy?