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So you're saying determinism is on the same lines of fate and destiny? If that is so, than I believe it is true to a point. Things happen for a reason, and if something is supposed to happen it will. I believe there is some give in this theory, because everyone has a free will. I think of it more generally, not every exact move you make and thing you say is pre-determined, and I don't see how your thought process could have already been planned...but there are certain paths and such that each person is meant to take on their own terms as individuals.

everything being pre-determined? now you see i sorta believe that everything is pre-determined. because there was a time where i would be shown the future (not much) and i'd be able to predict what was happening in that short space of time. but i would only see a little bit at a time.

I couldn't see any reason for some of the visions. and only one has been wrong (which i shan't go into on here) but because i've been shown only a little bit i don't know to what extent life is pre-determined

Ohhh a real post for once... :)

I think I believe in the idea of "Causal Determinism" most out of those three options.

I think that all humans have free will, but that this free will is governed by outside forces. Call them whatever you want to call them, nature, god, etc... but they are there pulling us in certian directions and influencing us to make certian decisions. I hope this made sense because I already have a headache today.

Obelisk. I agree with you there.. I think we have "free-will" but something points all to one dircetion..

If that is the case, then I definately agree with the Casual Determinism. I believe there was a Destiny thread floating around somewhere where I described my belief, and it seams to be VERY closely related, if not the same, as Casual Determinism.

This is a very interesting concept, that I believe to be very possible. I would lean more towards the side of casual determinism however. A lot of the conversations between Neo and The Oracle in the Matrix trilogy, seem to follow these ideas.

I've studied this stuff before Echo. It is a lot more complex than you've put forth (I know you wanted to truncate your post). There are many derivatives of Determinism. Biological Determinism perhaps holds the most weight as a theory. Think of it this way:

The human body is essentially a machine or a computer. When the union of egg and sperm is completed, a set of events is set into motion that will not change. This happens in much the same way a game of chess might play out... When the same pieces are moved in sequential order time and time again.

This would all be very logical and plausible if the organism existed in a vacuum. But the earth plane isn't a vacuum. There are trillions upon trillions of organisms co-existing. Not to mention the multitude of non-organic entities (the tides, tornado's, earthquakes, etc).

It could be argued that only the scope of the game (chess analogy) is increased. It's increased to a factor of which the human mind is not capable of comprehending. This cannot be easily discounted and is why Determinism remains an interesting and plausible philosophy.

Personally, I believe in the effects of Determinism, but not that Determinism as defined is the reason for those effects. Figure that out and then get back to me (I've made many posts on this subject in the past).

Gorey-
I know about your visions, and believe you. This would suggest a form of 'timeline' if you will, of things being planned already before we even consider or even have options for a situation. I too have had dreams which have predicted the future to the point that I have been able to accurately cease a conversation.

Obelisk-
I like the somewhat 'trippy' image you have provided about forces working around us *laughs.* I like the way you are illustrating your thoughts however, I consider 'options' as the wrong word to use, and may I explain why;

EVERYONE-
As Cancer pointed out, there are indeed many options in a conceivably circular argument, and I do not want to create the illusion of limiting myself or you to only three 'choices' for; as with most things, it is just not that simple.

Acontie-
I love the way destiny fascinates everyone… and its’ just as enjoyable to study (if not quite frustrating.)

Cancer-
I understand and, as I am only in my first year, we are just touching on some of these derivatives. However we did briefly address Biological Determinism, but did not go into any amount of considered detail as you have (I am not making excuses for the subsequent holes in my knowledge, but admitting them as areas to be improved in time, and hopefully by this thread.)

“Personally, I believe in the effects of Determinism, but not that Determinism as defined is the reason for those effects.”

I do understand what you mean, however this does not conclude that I have the adequate experience in the subject or the world for that matter to state whether I agree with you.

"Personally, I believe in the effects of Determinism, but not that Determinism as defined is the reason for those effects."

So, you don't believe in Determinism... But you think that there is something else which is causing the effects that are being attributed to Determinism. Did I get that right?

I have stated many times (in various fashions), that I believe everything that ever has, is, or will happen on the earth plane has already been preordained.

Destiny is written by the soul. Prior to incarnation the soul writes out its path. The chosen path is a result of things needed to be learned and/or accomplished. Trials, tribulations, and intersections are all predetermined.

This is very difficult for most people to accept, but you have to consider what a timeless existence entails. When you eliminate time, everything changes.

So back on track with Determinism (which states essentially that all things play in a certain order), my personal philosophy has the same end result... But the reason for the result is different.

it's strange for me, because my experiences have made me believe there is a level of determinism... but when one vision turned out to be wrong (i recieved a bad text message) and in real life, i reached for the phone even thought i knew there was to be a bad message on it. i couldn't control my arm.

but there was no message, it was the first time a vision has been wrong. confused the hell out of me. but made me wonder if I changed that fate... or if someone else changed that fate.

i still think there's a level of determinism i just think it can be easily shifted.

for example, you take a shortcut down an alley, you run the risk of meeting odd people who'll growl and shout odd things at you. so when you decide to take that shortcut. there are pre-determined actions from that point.

kind of like parallel universes BUT with each decision you totally forget about the outcome of a decision you didn't make.

if that makes sense.

cancer once you put it that way I also believe this. "Destiny is written by the soul. Prior to incarnation the soul writes out its path. The chosen path is a result of things needed to be learned and/or accomplished. Trials, tribulations, and intersections are all predetermined."

it is also written in Sylvia Browne books..

however, what evidence do you have to support this belief system?

we can all agree on a definition of determinism, but what about observing "it" - for example, a game of billiards is deterministic, because to play the game requires a player to *choose* and apply their decision on a system.

removing the deterministic outcome from the game, would mean the game is not billiards, but free will: to hit the balls how ever you please (off the table, into someone's beer!)

the application of a participant's decision on to the system would mean the outcome is now entwined with the participant, like a hybrid causal determinism - so what evidence do we (the observer) have to support the position that everything has already been preordained?

people do not know the future, in the same way we kow the past, because human experience is linear, and people do what they want because they want to, modified by their belief systems, behavioural habits, moods, and their responses to prior stimuli

VoidWhichBinds- I do like what you are putting forth about linear life-lines, however the prediciton of the future through any which divinity or ESP is that which can contradict your theory.

The very fact that there is precognition (dreams or otherwise) indicates that the future is unchangeable and has already happened.

And before someone says it, just because you have a precognitive dream, and then do something 'different' to change an outcome, doesn't mean you've actually changed the future. The dream could have been a false prophesy to begin with, aimed at getting you to do a particular thing.

Thats what I believe. Often the insights into what has already happened has appeared in such a dreamlike fashion that when it actually occurs I am feeling that i am experiencing somehting new, until a certain sensory stimulus (usually hearing a aprticular phrase that was memorable in the precognition) inefluences me to copy my intial reactions.

However, I agree with the notion of using 'visions' for the specific purpose changing the future. not out of the good of free will but for specific purposes which makes our actions seemingly determined my ourselves but actually by the reason of the vision.

Apologies, I have worded this terribly.

I've never really dwelled on the posibility that my wrong vision was wrong just so i could live a different truth. in the past all my visions where just carbon copies of the future.

why would i be shown something that was wrong? why could i not just be shown what was going to happen like the other times?

Maybe just to keep things interesting... I doubt that there is an answer to your question, it's just something out of the norm.

that's the point of Philosophy, it gives more questions than it answers. if it answers any at all ;)

And also what makes philosophy so interesting.

Its really interesting to study, however the exams are looming and its scary, as there are no right answers as such, and no wrong, and then it stafrts to scramble your brain....

that is the distinct problem with philosophy courses.....how can an opinion paper be wrong?
really......they ask for your opinion....and when you give it they decide whther or not you deserve to pass...this is not OPINION
but back to the point
I believe strongly in causative determinism
I feel there are infinite universes and each choice you make weaves you through these universes in a given path....
instead of a set preordination
think of reality like a woven cloth
each point the threads cross is a decision in life..

I've taken several college level philosophy courses. I've never gotten anything but an A. Every instructor I have ever had will mark you high so long as your position is well thought out. It doesn't have to gel with any belief system.

Spelling and grammer count too.

Thanks for the advice Cancer. Im just at that point when things start to loom over me and I get that feeling of unease about the examinations x x

Well good luck on your philosophy exams then Echo.

Why thankyou obelisk (no doubt I will be putting the questions up in threads to come!)

Its on everything this year. Nice topic :-S

No problem at all. I love these topics that actually make me think. I hope that you do put more of the questions into new threads soon :)

my belief on this is that there are certain events that no matter what will happen, sometimes it is between many events certain to happen. how we arrive at the event or which event we arrive at is entirly up to us but they will happen.

i highly suggest the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind to the people liking this thread, the books really make you consider some new philosophey, especialy in this area. so check it out if you want a good read and some interesting insight.

Thanks DeathIsBecoming- I shall look this up.

Obelisk- Im glad you appreciated it, as I didn't knwo how well it would go down. I definately will bring up some moremtopics in the future...

Well these topics that require actually thought are good at keeping all the new and ignorant users our of the post, which is always good ;)

I have notcied an incerase in odd posts, but some of teh Forum threads at the moment are fantastic...

Thats way over my head.