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okay lets take karma from a different point of view

lets debate and give good reasoning why Karma is a made up and a untrue form of existence


this isn't a thread for saying oh but i believe in karma lol...please read topic title


why do you believe Karama to be untrue please share any examples

As with most beliefs, and ideologies Karma "is"as one accepts Karma.

The concept of Karma is many faceted, and not all agree on its mechanism. The is theist Karma, and nontheist Karma.

The illusion of Karma is supported by action reaction, or mundane consequence.

As with many churches the priest is conveniently able to intercede in ones karmic debt.

I see bad things happen to good people, and bad people alike, so I am not a subscriber to Karma, but I personal consider my actions, and inaction carefully.

The notion to state that Karma does not exist is as debatable as saying there is no afterlife. As it is defined, if Karma does not exist, then why not argue if whether or not that making decisions has no consequences?

As for me...I believe that "what comes around, goes around"...eventually, what you perpetuate and set into motion will come back and slap you on the backside. ;)

Karma is personification of Cause, and effect.

TheRoman:

You ask for a debate, yet you stipulate that only one side be examined. That is not a debate.

Dabbler said:

"As with many churches the priest is conveniently able to intercede in ones karmic debt."

I can only assume that "churches" refers to western religion. I am unaware of any protestant, catholic, or orthodox religion that subscribes to the notion of karma. In fact, these organizations oppose karma. They do not believe in reincarnation or karma. You must "get everything right" in this incarnation, or you go to hell.

Reincarnation and karma are eastern religious tenants. For the most part they are Buddhist and Hindu, but there are some other eastern religions that subscribe to these views as well.

In the purest sense of these views, hell does not exist as fire and brimstone, but as an afterlife of our own creation. Our souls are pure. When we do evil in the earthly plane we re-live that evil over and over again as spirits, thus creating our own hells. We return to the earthly plane through reincarnation, in an attempt to set right what we have done wrong in past incarnations.

I find these notions far more acceptable from a personal point of view than that of other religions that damn you to hell for simply disagreeing with (or not subscribing to) their point of view. Buddhism is the most tolerant of all religions. One need not be a Buddhist to find nirvana.

ha very true,good catch Cancer...i was just wanting to see what kind of thought processes other member would have if there was a belief of not believing in Karma and if so what guidelines or plausible causes would root down to the one sided of not believing

Being a Buddhist myself...I do believe in karma and in the Buddhist belief karma is a fact.I do believe that what goes around,comes around.I do believe that if you are always a bad person and have negative thoughts against someone else you will get back what you give.

I have seen too many bad things happen to bad people,for Karma to NOT be real.Read about Buddhism and karma and you will learn something.

Cancer says: "...hell does not exist as fire and brimstone, but as an afterlife of our own creation. Our souls are pure. When we do evil in the earthly plane we re-live that evil over and over again as spirits, thus creating our own hells. We return to the earthly plane through reincarnation, in an attempt to set right what we have done wrong in past incarnations...."

This pretty well describes my own ideas of what Karma is. I do not think that Western religions subscribe to Karma at all, all our actions etc are pre-ordained according to Christian beliefs for example, therefore Karma cannot feature, what happens is already decreed by God and there is nothing we can do to change that.

In comparison, Buddhism for example, seeks to make us aware of our actions, i.e. harm to the planet, other people, is down to us to address and seek to change. This suggests to me that according to Buddhism, we are all instrumental in what happens around us, therefore, Karma does feature. The following quote from Trungpa tells us we are all responsible for our destinies, and that is something I have to agree with.

"The Shambhala teachings are founded on the premise that there is a basic human wisdom that can help to solve the worlds problems. This...does not belong to any one culture or religion..." [Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche , Kagya lama, 1977-] taken from: The Awakening of the West, S. Bachelor. 1994.

Churches was a misguiding term to use.

Though there is a hint of Karma in the Christian faith.

Priest in eastern religions can intercede in karmic debt.

I am personally fond of eastern religions myself.

Thanks for the red ink Cancer.

source Wiki

Western interpretation

An academic and religious definition was mentioned above. The concept of karma is part of the world view of many millions of people throughout the world. Many in western cultures or with a Christian upbringing have incorporated a notion of karma. The Christian concept of reaping what you sow from Galatians 6:7 can be considered equivalent to Karma.[43]

According to karma, performing positive actions results in a good condition in one's experience, whereas a negative action results in a bad effect. The effects may be seen immediately or delayed. Delay can be until later in the present life or in the next. Thus, meritorious acts may mean rebirth into a higher station, such as a superior human or a godlike being, while evil acts result in rebirth as a human living in less desirable circumstances, or as a lower animal. Some observers[who?] have compared the action of karma to Western notions of sin and judgment by God or gods, while others understand karma as an inherent principle of the universe without the intervention of any supernatural Being. In Hinduism, God does play a role and is seen as a dispenser of karma; see Karma in Hinduism for more details. The non-interventionist view is that of Buddhism and Jainism.

Most teachings say that for common mortals, being involved with karma is an unavoidable part of daily living. However, in light of the Hindu philosophical school of Vedanta, as well as Gautama Buddha's teachings, one is advised to either avoid, control or become mindful of the effects of desires and aversions as a way to moderate or change one's karma (or, more accurately, one's karmic results or destiny

I personally have seen too many "good" people receive bad and too many "bad" people receive good to believe in karma.

By who's standards of "good" and "bad" are we going by here?

You can warn someone of a bad thing but, to you what might seem to be bad, could be good to other people.

The way I see it, the rain falls on the good as well as the bad.

If an earthquake claims a whole city, who's karma is responsible?

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

If I may point out that the idea of the incarnating and excarnating soul is Ancient Egyptian in nature and is also very much predynastic. Their belief that the soul comes and goes and what deeds are done while here carry an after life effect predates all of the worlds current religious denominations by thousands of years in most cases.

The very word Karma is a Sanskrit word meaning "action". Which is generally understood to mean the consequences of one’s actions.
But whether one believes in Karma or not is mostly a question of religious belief or atheist beliefs. If you believe in a God at all then what you do and don't do in this life are of consequence... regardless of the amount of lives your system of worship believes you have. It is universal that one way or another your sins catch up with you... Call it what you like but that's Karma.

What I find odd is that people who claim to be atheist usually fail to live within the parameters of that belief. I would assume that if you believe this is it... one shot, one round of play in the game of life that you would be respectful of live - especially your own. Never risking to much or placing yourself in harms way. But more often then not they are as reckless as everyone else.... Fast food, smoking, dangerous sports, and the like.

In the end perhaps the real debate should be about why our actions don't reflect our beliefs.

What goes around comes around has been misinterpreted as an outflowing negativity to others. Since we see plenty of examples of people doing bad things to others and not suffering consequences, I think karma needs a reexamination.

And I'm not willing to wait until an afterlife that I won't remember to affirm it.

Rather, I think negativity is attributable to oneself. If you think bad things about your actions then stuff you don't want to happen will return to you.

If you are truly a sociopath and think no ill thoughts about your actions, bad shite might still happen, but at least you won't have to blame yourself.

the end

Those who disregard others eventually run out of reliable resources, they burden themselves with constant examination of those they come in contact with "Have I wronged this person?" or "have I wronged someone they know?"

I dispute that atheist are reckless, and I would welcome an example.

It can come to the question of, Do people need the concept of Karma, or a Deity Dictated Moral to do good?

Action, reaction can be a non-ism as well as an ism.

What comes around, goes around ..is a statement for either positive or negative...and yes..bad things happen to really good people...I oughtta know..I'm one of them..;) ...but you know what?...that's life...and life...is not consistent upon the inherent fools that f*ck it up.

As for karma...it resonates the inner aspects of all things both good, evil and everything else in-between...but is only a part in the big picture of things...free will has its own devices and so does perspective in dealing with the bad things that happen.

For instance, I remember a very troubling time when my mom turned to a pastor for prayer and support...as members of the Church of the Nazarene...now there's a good one for Karmic belief on the negative side...

To give you the short of this troubling time, my 1st stepdad (whom I adored as my own father) was in a motorcycle accident 4 days after marrying my mom. He should have died, he nearly did. Through the next year of rehab, his sister sued my mother for legal custody to put him in a home and removed my stepbrother out of the house legally, even forbidding he and I to communicate during such a stressful time for both of us.

To make a long story short, when my mom asked this preacher for the prayer and support she needed...to ask "why" these terrible things were happening to her when she was so happy again...it was his reply as I stood there listening I will never forget.

"What terrible sin have you committed to suffer this tragedy....you've done something to cause this and only you can concede what it is..but tell me about it and I'll pray with you and hope that God will forgive you."

Quite frankly, I didn't understand that view at all..even then. My view was simple...I believed with all my heart from day one...that God would bring us through that situation and that my stepdad would live...somehow and beat every odd against him....I prayed it everyday.

By the end of the year, my stepdad did live to tell the tale..he had to learn how to walk again, talk again, feed himself, bathe and clothe himself...you see..he started over at square one after that head injury...and he had a complete personality change...the sister didn't win the lawsuit and I never got to see my stepbrother again...nor did we go back to that church...and my mom and stepdad decided to divorce after all was said and done...because even though, walking, talking miracle that he was...my stepdad never remembered me or my mom...ever again.

Bad things happen to good people all the time...but I personally believe...above all things, no matter how horrible the situation can be...it teaches us one thing...Perseverance and a Glad Heart when Good Things do Happen.

Have you ever heard of the 90/10 rule??
It states that only 10% of what happens in your life is beyond your control and that the other 90% is simply about the way you react to that 10%. the energy you put out into the world... just as I described in the thread "knowledge retained".

Example:

you are having breakfast will you family your wife sets your morning coffee down in front off you. your daughter accidentally knocks the cup over and you get burned. You yell at your daughter for spilling it on you. your wife steps in and says that she set the cup there and it was really her fault. So you begin to argue with her about it and after a few minute you decide to just run back up stairs and get changed. you come down stair to find your daughter upset and crying still because she feels you and mommy are arguing because of her... she misses her bus and you know have to take her to school. you grab you things and rush out the door and for get you brief case. you get your daughter to school but now have to rush home to get your brief case are get caught speeding.
You day has turned into an out of control downward noise dive. you finally come home to find that nothing has changed and everyone is still reeling from this morning And your family seems to be distant from you instead of being supportive which is what you could really use about now.
you had a horrific day - who's fault is that??

A.) your daughter
B.) your wife
C.)The policeman
D.) yours

that's called karma but what ever you want to call it, it is you reaping what you sowed... you put out bad and negative energy and that vibration echoed through out everything you did that day.

Oh and sorry for not answering you Dabbler, See I do have a close friend that is atheist and he eats horrible foods, skydives, smokes, drives fast cars and even fast woman.
I would have thought that this goes against the ideology he holds simply because if this is it, your only time than why do something that is going to put your life in danger when that action could possibly end your life. Ignoring these obvious dangers Seems to be counter productive to me.

My theory is that some folks including my friend are simply Atheist by default.

dabbler:

Paul's letter to the Galatians has nothing to do with karma. It has to do with loving your neighbor. Christianity does not preach karma. Karma is directly linked to reincarnation and Christians do NOT believe in reincarnation. Christians are all about "getting it right" this time around, not the next. Christians see karma and reincarnation as a license to "screw up" this incarnation.

In regard to your second quoted paragraph (higher stations), this is more in regard to caste, a Hindu tenant. Stations and caste are narrow views and not adhered to by eastern religions other than Hindu.

ZombieABOMINATION:

I personally have seen too many "good" people receive bad and too many "bad" people receive good to believe in karma.

Karma spans lifetimes. You cannot "witness" its effects. "Instant Karma" (karma within one lifetime) is quite rare and perhaps non-existent.

UpirLikhyj:

You're twisting Paul's letter to the Galatians. Paul is not talking about Karma. Paul is telling them to love their neighbor, as Jesus often did. Paul never wrote or inferred about karma or reincarnation. Paul is basically saying:

"Get it right in THIS lifetime or you will burn in Hell for eternity."

That statement is directly opposed to Karma and reincarnation.

Bloodmother:

You're talking about "instant karma". True karma is linked to reincarnation. Thus, if you do evil in this lifetime you are punished through karma in the next.

Since karma spans lifetimes, we cannot witness its effects.

Eastern religious scholars have said that those who suffer cancer in this lifetime are suffering as a result of evil done in past lifetimes. Cancer is the manifestation of karma.

I'm still with Cancer on this...
A good summary of the way that Christians will be rewarded is found in 2 Corinthians 5:10.
"...For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad..."

Christianity believes that reward and punishment is given in Heaven and we really only have this life to store up those treasures. Hinduism on the other hand believes that reward and punishment is dealt out through the cycle of reincarnation.

One important Christian principle is regarding suffering. The Bible says that God
"causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

A key element of Karma is the idea that if you help someone in need, you are not really helping them because you are preventing them from paying off their bad karma. The Bible, however, teaches that we should love our enemies and do good to those who wrong us. Christ taught us to love all and to bless all, through outward expression of love. Karma on the other hand teaches its follower to only be concerned with himself.

Punishment and Reward are not given in Heaven within Christian belief...Reward consists of that little cabin in the corner while Punishment is dealt out in the Eternal Fire of Hell's Lake.

Since Christianity does not adhere to reincarnation, the concept of Karmic debt is replaced instead by pennance, but either way you look at it, the energy you put out there regarding any event, no matter how big or small, either can harness a good or bad situation or it can exacerbate it.

Severus, while I agree upon what you said about how we react to things, regarding events that happen in each individual's life that is beyond our control...I think the statistics of 10%/90% are grieviously exaggerated and further substantiates many denominational beliefs that the subsequent sins of the individual is what perpetuates radical trauma and harm in one's life.

To assign that a child, or anyone for that matter, suffers from cancer because they were a bad person in another life is, to me, as far-fetched as saying good people suffer in this lifetime because of unconfessed sins. My interpretation of Karma is that spiritual thread of fate or destiny that runs in each life's tapestry of events. However, it is not a constant but a variable dependent upon the choices of free will...to a certain extent.

Karma is not the whole of this life or any others, but simply put, a spiritual by-law that abides with us. Love and Compassion...even for our enemies encourages Forgiveness which can only help the Self from internal destruction....and quite frankly, Kindness towards others as being Harmful to their karmic debt is yet another doctrinal extreme I do not subscribe to.

Cancer:

Paul's words in Galations Chapter 6 are not about the "Golden Rule" but about helping those who are in "sin" while taking care not to be taken in "sin," themselves. Paul then goes on to the two verses I quoted (vss. 7-9) wherein he speaks specifically of how actions that glorify the "flesh" result in damnation after this life while those that glorify the "spirit" result in "life everlasting."

Now obviously, how Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism view life after death is very different. Yet, though called by different names and interpreted differently in accordance with each religion's belief system, yet Christianity as well as most all religions do teach the "Karma-esque" principle that our moral attitudes and the actions resulting therefrom do have consequences that affect our spiritual progress in this life and the next (whatever the religion's interpretation of the "next" life might be).

No, I'm not attempting to equate "Karma" with the Christian "Reaping What You Sow" as relates to religious interpretation.

What I am saying, however, is that the principle of the "Law of Natural Consequences" is what both religious terms are based upon and what they both teach when stripped of religious and dogmatic interpretation.

Thus, while mainstream (i.e. Pauline) Christianity teaches/preaches only Heaven or Hell after mortality while Buddhism teaches reincarnation, yet both religions equally recognize that our actions have both short-term and long-term consequences, which is essentially the principle of "Karma" when stripped of all religious interpretation and dogmatic trappings.


- Upir'

Severus,

I would suspect your friend is a hedonist.

Your sweeping statement that atheist are live reckless lives is a grand assumption.

It is as close to saying Godless people could never function as a culture, or society, yet remote tribes have done so, and are doing so, living in harmony.

So while you say a person needs religion to live healthy, and right.. I ask What exact religion should that be,. and what deity? Surely you acknowledge that their are many more options, so if you are not to believe all.. then are you in essence living reckless, and unhealthy by the standards of those that you do not adhere to.

Severus,

Here is one article that demonstrates how atheist can make a case that it is the other way around.

Atheisthaven/blogspot/2007-dreadfullness-of-death-unhealthy


Vita est iam

"Karma spans lifetimes. You cannot "witness" its effects."

Living lifetimes over and over? Thanks but, no thanks.

If karma cannot be witnessed, what's the point?


And again I ask, by who's standards of right and wrong, good and evil is karma going by?

I really don't want to bog down this conversation with personal experiences and interactions, And I'm not going to insult someone by saying that a child, or even their child could have cancer because they might have been a murder or rapist in the past. It could simply be that a spiritual lesson is attempting to be learned, that is how the soul and consciousness grow.

What Cancer and I are attempting to convey is that Karma good or bad is about Balance... the Universe balances it's self on it's time table - not ours.
Those who believe in Karma understand how the system works and are not concerned with instant revenge for personal balance in our own lives. Yes we like to see justice served to those that have committed an injustice but we ultimately know that there are only two directions one's soul can go on the later of life.

Severus posts,

"the Universe balances it's self on it's time table - not ours."

I like when a point of agreement can be discovered.

I accept the universe as a deist would a god, it is nothing personal.


Personally, reasoning it as a balance is logical.

Anyone who is perceptive can see how wasted a negative persons life becomes , no one wants to be around them, no one looks out for them in time of need.

a positive person is one that does things because they know that a functioning environment benefits them, and their off spring.

cause and effect....thats very wide ranging, and if you want to say that if im on rollar skates an i throw a mass in one direction, that there will be a force that pushes me in the other direction, ok...i call it newtons third law, but you call it karma.
fine

but thats physics. to say that if i just do something evil to someone, that something evil will happen also to me just doesnt bare out.

now if you want to throw in that it may happen in another life, in an after life, etc (something not provable) then i cant really argue the point, but if you say that for every act i do in this life, that a similar thing will happen to me, i do disagree with, and have seen zero evidence to that effect.

only my 2 cents, but that is the result of my own observation.
~W~

Honestly though, doesn't this thread fall under

"Posts that ridicule the philosophical tenants of any religion?"

No.

Quote the ridicule.

I am reminded of a conversation I had with a ride once while hitch hiking, regarding the perception of ones actions vs the reception of ones actions.

A bully who perceives his actions against weaker kids as a service, "toughing them up". When in actually he is terrorizing them, regardless of how many people share that view, or appear to go along with his reasoning, he will still likely face the wrath of a kid who was pushed too far, or one day be subject to bullying from another person.

For the record, I think western New age has trampled all over, watered it down, and picked apart Karma.

Gee dabb that sounds Awful close to the concept of your reality being a matter of consensus. ;) lol

As for Karma - Energy is energy regardless of it state.
The balancing forces that govern our Universe and our existence do not completely fit into this nice square box of believes that humanity currently has. Modern science, some of out best and brightest minds summit to the fact that there is more to our universe than simply the physical. Yet people always seem to assume that the general laws that govern the physical world are exclusive to the physical.
Cause and effect, the idea that for every action there is a equally positive or negative reaction as a purely physical ideology is a big mistake.

hmm..shall we find positive proof in the pudding that there is a way to square the circle then?...;)

(tongue in cheek on that one..:P)

I agree with Upir's summation on those scriptures btw and Severus, well-stated on the spirit of Karma...more along the lines of what I was thinking personally.

...also..I would like to say that in the objective view of Karma, I agree with Upir's statement regarding the principles of karma being taught in Christian religions...but not as the dogmatic characteristics often referred to..but as I illustrated in my relative experience of how the belief is held within many Christian doctrines that the actions or sins of one can perpetuate consequences and attribute punishments later in this life or the next....and the alotment that some ascribe to "falling from grace" is indicative of Cancer's reference to "instant karma."