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First if you come here just to talk about only what you do- leave; your post is not needed.

If you come to bitch whine or moan about your coven- leave; this is not the place you have a journal for a reason.

This is a valid VR discussion, does not belong in my journal because I want to TALK about this.

It seems the coven of Purgatory has many people upset with the ethics of inductions and what should be morally correct vs. what the rules are.

I think this is an important discussion to have since my own name has been thrown around by many people from the misconception of what it is I am actually doing and it’s over all purpose for me, my coven and the over all Vampire Rave ideal.

There is much “hot- headedness” going on right now, so let’s just start with what I stated.

With all due respect, hasn't this horse been beaten to death already?

No it hasn't.

No one has approached the idea of looking at WHY people are so upset.

People have just ranted, let's step back and examine what it is.

Moral code vs. the rules

Why is it wrong to follow the rule? What makes it a moral flaw in your character?

It also bring up the reality of the vampire myth- being "lived out" here on VR.

It seems to me that is one part of it. Still there are others that view those that choose to force induct to be beneath their ethical standards.

I find this interesting because often times they assume that everyone force inducting is approaching it in the same manner that they would.

Also with the vampire myth, when has a vampire ever given a real choice? You can not be turned into a vampire and then *poof* no long be one.

No matter what has happened your perception is altered forever. Similar to once you've been in a house or coven, VR changes. VR is different though, because you can ignore/block messages and no one forces you to push the buttons required to go into said house or coven.

So again why is this a moral issue?

I'm not sure exactly what about inductions we're discussing here, but if it's about "forced" inductions.....

I don't know why people bitch about being forcibly inducted into a House or Coven, it's part of the rules here on VR. If our Coven inducts someone that doesn't want to be there, then fine, we'll try and set up a trade, no big deal.

*NOTE: Deleting your profile is NOT the answer people, that is just childish and a waste of time.

Afterall, this IS just the internet, we are supposed to be having fun and not taking things so seriously.

Honestly I don't know much about the situation at hand but I can see where some one would get upset about being forced into a coven or house. I mean your coven should be what you want to be in. It should be a coven or house that you feel at home in. Not just bc the master or owner wants you in it. But bc you want to be in it.
I think that it's been going on more often since the new system has been brought upon for favor earning.
You don't earn favor at will any more. It's based on time spent and stuff like that.
I personally like it better but we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about what you said.
But really I see the points of views of ppl get upset for being brouth into a coven or house that they don't want to be in
and you can't get upset if they don't want to be in urs bc that's not the point. Not every one shares your views or feelings.

I consider that no matter where you go or what you do or what you sign up for, there is rules, and the rules are to be apply and followed, if someone cannot handle that simple fact, then maybe they should not get invovle in anything, simple things have rules, for exemple going to McDonald, you cant enter without a shirt on, or with rollerblades on, you cant go to the back of the counter if you are not an employe...Other exemple, you want to go train, in a work-out gym, you have to wear running shoes, if you dont, you cant get in, you have to wear proper clothings, if not, you'll get ether warn or ask to leave, other exemple if you go to a travel agency and wish to go to England, then you say :I am gonna drive on the side I drive in America, because its my right and forcing me to drive the other side is wrong, its forcing me to do what I dont want....

So my point is when you get somewhere, or sign up for something, there is rules and you got to follow them.

Also the force induction is a choice the coven/House Master has, they do it or not, its THEIR choice once you get to become one it will be YOUR choice, untill then, its not.

It likes the number of message you can send, until you are above level 2, you are limited, does nayone cries over it? No.

Its like the time limite for an account ot remain on VR, until you reach lelvel 5, it can be deleted, does anyone cries about it? No.

Its like the Dominar, and Procurator, Consul, Sentorian, Regent, they are apointed by the Prince, does anyone cry about it? AboutTheir rights, like Dominars behing able to delete post, close threads ect..Sentorian suspending profiles...ect. Do we cry about it? No.



Then why cry over a rule? And not the others? If a Coven master makes that choice, to do it or not, its their earned right as a Coven/House Master, just like any Sire has an earn right to leave their House/Coven.

Its all about earning rights.

ok i no i am in a coven which i love very much, i am so greatfull for bing where i am at, that said and done,

what i wonder is when people are forcibaly inducted and they pretty much are clear , hey i dont want to here, why are they forced to stay and then are punished for not doing what the coven expects them to do when they were up front that they did not want to be there, what is the point of that ?

i mean i read the vr manual and understood what could happen and i new that before i joined and was fine, but still

True it is the internet, yet seriousness should be balanced with the fun.

We are still real people here with feelings and such, but we all did sign a terms of service by pushing a button that says "I agree".

So having done this, why are up in arms now that both covens and houses are using the idea of Vampires to their fullest extent?

But still???

Is that because of the lack of free will? Or because it seems to seperate you from your friends?

I'm of the opinion that people are whining because about 80% of VR members didn't take the time to read about what being a vampire was before they decided they wanted to be one. Cancer designed the Society system to mimic that of a vampiric society. Do vampires ask if you want to be one of them and hold your hand as you decide? No. Do you get to cry your way out of it once it's done? No.

You want to be a vampire? Here's your chance to roleplay.

Interesting topic, Liebe. Though with how you frame the discussion of morals VR rules, one wonders if they are truly in competition with each other.

Is it moral to force induct someone who wishes to abstain from the game they signed up for? Is it written in the rules that just because we have the power to induct that we should?

How exactly does Purgatory fit into the equation of morals vs. rules? Even the public coven pages are no saucier than journal entries, and I have seen worse written about individuals in other areas of VR.

You selected Purgatory as a point of reference in the morality debate, but how many other societies now are forcibly inducting, blinding, and blocking? At least in Purgatory my understanding is that they are not blinded and could communicate with each other freely. It is no different than any of the other societies that forcibly induct.

Regardless of the outcome of the discussion, I am sure there will always be society leaders that choose the game over any morality questions. Many leaders see it as a matter of "because I can" or "this is how the site is" and maybe the do trump any concept of ethical questioning on the practice. This is after all a society that everyone willingly signed up for and has the freedom to leave at any point.

Perhaps members are seeing VR as a safe haven for like minded people; a place where they can be themselves and not be judged. This is a social web site along with the vampire database mission. Once they realize that it is seen by some as a game, or that theyre forced into something they don't want to do, and then harassed about participation, they are disappointed and the fun is curtailed.

TheDame -

Well, they should've read the VR manual, then they could've seen that they can be forcibly inducted into any House and Coven.

the other thing i wonder, is and i hope i say this right so please bear with me, ok i no a lot of covens ask do you want to join i have much respect for that, when a person is forced to join with out even bing asked or was asked and then is still forcably inducted, why do the inducters do that, i mean wouldent it seem more logical to have people want to join then bing forced, to me thats just kinda dumb, i mean if i had a coven i ran my self i would want people to join because they wanted to not because i said hey you are joing period

Any persons with the power of "inducting" that say they don't "forcibly" induct, they are flat out liars. I apologize for being so blunt, but it's the truth. EVERY society forcibly inducts.

Well, a lot of people feel that their free will is being taken away. If they don't update their status, they'll be looked down upon, but they also don't want to belong to anyone or anything that doesn't directly correspond to their own specific moral and personal codes. In fact, many just don't want to give up their authority at all. If they join a society, they will be subordinate to other people, and that upsets them.

As to the vampire myth, a lot of people can't even deal with that. That's why there are so many stories cropping up about people who offer themselves to vampires, or ask to be turned. So long as they are doing it with their own free will, they are happy, because they control their own fate (even if it is only in a superficial way).

These are people who want to feel strong and in control, most often because they aren't really. They are vulnerable, and every bit of control they give up to someone else makes them feel weaker. Then they get even more upset, because as much as they try to assert themselves, they can't wiggle out of the fact that forced induction is one of the most fundamental rules of this site. And god, knows they can't self-delete. That would be admitting defeat, and they can't have that.

Well, that's just my analysis, based on the majority of complainers I've seen on this site in the past year or so. There are exceptions, but not many, and I'm sure they know who they are.

Vashti
i think you got it , and i agree fully with you

The way I look at it the VR manual states that a person can be force inducted to a house or coven. If u are then u have nothing to complain about. I also think I understand on the Sire's side to induct someone in to the coven. The more members they have the better chance the coven or house has to advance thier ratings. on the other hand a member that does not want to be in that house or coven will not be to willing to participate for the good of the house or coven.

Bottom line is if a member reaches level 5 or above and is forcibly inducted they have to live with it or try to see if they can work a trade. If i was Sire though i think i would rather have people in my group that want to be there and would be willing to work to bring our ratings up

No but b4 you enter a coven you have the respect to say if you want to be in it or not
most of the time it is ur right to choose.
In real life.
With my coven we have the right to choose and the whole coven comes to an agrement of the person wanting to be in *this isnt a vr coven im talking about*
so really this isnt about being a vampire
a coven has nothing to do with being a vampire
there are more things then just that.
Some ppl on here live the vampire life not the "myth" there are myths of vampires
but they are real.
Just not in a hollywood sense of fashion and gore fallowed by mansions and blood in a wine glass

How is your free will taken?

Do we stand over you and force you to push the button to respond to messages or to enter into the coven?

It seems that it is more the perception of free will that is being taken.

***** News Flash*****

VR is no more of a reality than you make it. We can super-impose rules, ethics, processes, but it is a virtual world. If you do not like it, you can always go to another site or unplug your computer.

Exactly, but a lot of people do not understand that Hurtsoulless. They incorrectly think that being in a society is limiting their VR experience.

i agree with
cryingmoon

totaly on the buzzer
I don't think it has anything to do with friends.
You seem to be missing the point hun
A coven should be a family.
ppl you love and care about and that u can trust with everything
ppl that you want to be around
different covens are all about different things
and the porpouse of being in a coven is to feel at home
you get to choose ur home right?
I mean really.
I know it's the rules and all but why would you want some one in your coven or house if they don't want to be there.

I still say if you are forcibly inducted into a house or coven and do give them a chance, and in the end decide that this house or coven is really not for u. Then u need to start shopping around and see if there is a house or coven u think is a good fit, and would they be willing to work a trade for u.

actually Liebe

i dont mean this with any rudeness, but if you force a person to join somthing they are not instreasted in joing on there own and you make them do it, then some poeple do punish people for not doing the requirments , its like make something that should be fun and fun , making more like school and work , its like they have no choice but to do it, then the free will is gone,

my husband was forcabliy inducated this week into a coven anf he mainly did not want to join one is he could not met the requirments that they set, he is not on here a nough to advance once a month hes on here when ever

thedame of course you dont have a problem with it. You're in the coven you love.
which happens to be with the person who posted this.
So i see why you don't see other sides to this

That makes a very good point. Like I said though in purgatory thread and I am sorry if I am being a bit blunt. I see no point in whining and crying about it and throwing a fit. It wont get you any where. When you join you read the vr manual and saw that you could be forceably inducted once you rech a certain level. If you didn't read and didn't listen I am sorry that seems to be your own fault. I don't agree with being forcably inducted but I enjoy vr I enjoy being here so I deal with it. Like I sais there is no point in whining or crying over it. I mean no offense to any one

Very simple and like I am sure other have said your free will isn't being taken you are just part of something now and need to participate and things of that nature but no one is holding a gun to your head and making you

How hard is it to message the House or Coven Master and let them know you are not happy with the Society and would like to be traded??

I really don't see the big deal here. There's no sense in complaining about being forcibly inducted because it's part of the rules here on VR, READ THE VR MANUAL.

hahahaha Sevenn! Nice.

Sevenn

i agree very much

but i do like the moneky idea lol

lol well I don't think any one could have said it better

Well to start off this is a vampire site. As many have said before me according to vampire lore, they are not given the choice if they want to become a vampire or not. The second aspect is if you join a site and don't read the rules and other things about the site then you shouldn't complain about something that you were told about before it happened.

As for people being against "forced inductions", they had to have been on the site for a little bit before getting to that point. If they read the manual before hitting level 5 then they would have known that it could happen to them. If they had an issue with it then they should have left the site before hitting level 5.

Going against morals is something that has been brought up as well. Morals can't be brought into this. It is a website and the inductions are done as part of the fun of the site. Most of the time, if you don't go well with the rest of the members in the house or coven they will work with you to try and get you where you would fit in. That is if you do what you need to and actually talk to the right people with respect and dignity. I know that I was force inducted to a house and I had wanted to be in a certain coven. All I had to do was talk to them and let them deal with it. In this case respect would be the best bet. The majority of House and Coven masters want a family feel and will try the best to work with someone if they feel that they don't fit in. Hell, you might like where you end up. But if not, make the best of it until you either get placed where you want to be or get to Sire. Making a fuss about it just irritates the people making the decision if you stay or go. And if you go where you want to.

LOL I just saw what everyone was posting as I typed up what I had just posted.

First things first. Sevenn, I want to be in that coven. Monkey knife-fighting is a true art.

Moving on, being in A House or Coven against your will hurts nothing but your ego. You don't have to contribute, you don't even have to talk to anyone. If you are blinded, it affects nothing because you weren't having anything to do with them anyway. If you want to be in a specific society, a trade can be arranged, but if you don't want to be in any society at all, you can just ignore it. It has no effect whatsoever on your regular activities. What is there to complain about?

Kelsie, did you even read my first post? I clearly go over morality issues with the concept of forcibly inducting and blinding. I see a different side than Liebe and we've actually debated it quite a number of times.

You are right though. I am in a society that I love. As I am sure many people are. While there are some complaints, it does seem to be only a small percentage of society members.

I also agree with Sonneillon if u are not happy in a coven then message your coven master or assistant or trade master and ask to be traded. Simple as that

I would like to know though why when I see coven.house rules that say "we don't forcibly induct"...why they are all of a sudden. And including inducting ones that in their profiles say they do not want to be in one because they already know they won't have the time to put in to it or belong to a real, in person, coven. I mean, it's as far as forming new bonds and stuff...but past that...is it being done to get the favor because you can't play games anymore, get their status level, or what exactly.

rogue, the coven you are in has a lot of LownIgnitus' old members from his coven.

Lown forcibly inducted the living hell out of people and what does he have to show for it? Oh yeah, a new coven full of people that love and adore him and await his return.

That fact alone should really discourage forced inductions.

Here's the thing there are those that don't want to participate, for various real life reasons.

If they have a good looking profile and seem articulate we just might induct and blind them. They cannot participate due to the serious nature of what we do in my coven, yet we offer a safety so they do not have to have a stigma such as purgatory forced upon them.

While there are two opposing sides, sometimes it is the perception that is most important.

Is the tails side of coin a different coin from the heads?

Pick up the coin folks, flip it around then choose what you think.

Liebe,

Why would you induct and then blind them? I'm not understanding this fully.

He may have...but it's still different than what it was. Granted, I wasn't in his coven, but I did know him.

But 2 friends of mine were force inducted in to one that says "We come here willingly to commit ourselves to furthering our art and craft."...

Even though it's not the words of we do not force induct, I would still take it that way. Granted they did later get traded, but it was still the point...and one of them had told many that she didn't want to be in one when asked because she knew she wouldn't have the time to put in to as she would like.

But if you're using Lown's old coven as a way of discouragement, then I guess others aren't picking up on it...or I don't think we'd be having this discussion in the thread right now.

Our reason is this, we need trust with what we do.

We are first and foremost a writers/artisitic group.

Our forums are out WORKSHOP. This is why we have such a long application process.

Still we are founded on the ideals of the Toreador clan. I can go into more details if you would like...

Societies have always forcibly inducted, there really is nothing new going on. Just because you were forcibly inducted, does not necessarily mean you will hate your time spent in the society.

I find myself being redundant... no one can force you to interact. No one can force you to participate in the house forum... no one.

I would hope everyone had the same positive experiences as I have had in houses and covens that I have been forcibly inducted into.

So for you, it worked out. Where many a others wish to look at the covens and each of their rules, and see which will best fit them. Some of them, such as when I first joined this site, leveled up to a 5 within a week. But that isn't always enough time to really take a close look at them all. I feel that each coven should at least ask once...because maybe the person has a friend in one or something and they would rather be in that one. But before they get the chance, they're dragged in to another. My opinion is this...ones who have been on for quite a while should know by now. But if you might be interested in someone, then you should talk to them before they reach the induction level. At least it gives them a chance to think and see how close they are already.

I know Sevenn...and the few that were in his coven that are in this one, I have talked to on a semi-regular basis even before then. And yes, he was a good man overall. Just don't put in your rules that we won't forcibly induct...or something similar that can be taken the same way...if you have any intention of doing it. That's all. In real life...no, you're not given a choice. But in real life...everyone knows it too. But there aren't rules that say...oh, we'll never take you in to our family against your will. That is why I say...if you plan on force inducting more than one here or there...then don't lead on in the rules that you won't.

But how can people make a clear decision on if they want to be in a Coven or House when they haven't seen the "inside" of a Coven or House yet?

Do they not have to look around the Coven or House pages and forums first in order to make a clear decision? And to do this, they have to be apart of the House or Coven.

Forced inductions will happen why bitch about it that does no good at all

ok... what exactly is a coven? just wanting 2 know

I wanted to ask the Coven and House Masters a question.

Before the favor earning was changed, I understood most of them had a set amount of favors you had to earn within a week. I know a few did not, but most did.

The question is- what now? Do you still have the requirements? And what will happen to the members who are online, but do not participate of your forum?

I also wish to point out a concern I would have if I had been inducted into a Coven or House that I did not want to be in.

Lets say I wanted to be in another one due to friends beign in it, or because I believe it fits me better. Can the Masters assure the VR members they will trade them? Being active on this site makes me a favor winner, a value to you. Would you keep me against my will?

What is the Coven and House Masters standing on this?

:)

We are not bitching about it - we are discussing reasons and ideals behind it.

BIG difference. If you do not add to the topic do not post.

As for why not, our coven works with people's art- something personal and it requires much respect. Our induction process IS looking around, as we give clear examples of what occurs.

Many do not like it when they are exposed to it.

I have to say Sevenn I like how you stick out in this whole thing. I usually stay out of these rantings but thought I would come out of my shell for this one.



Yay aliens ^_^

Rogue, I think if you spend enough time on here to get to level 5 in one week, you have had enough time to read the Manual, and the front pages of the Societies we have here. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. It's your job to find these things out on your own.

Hahaha...we actually have an alien thread in our coven Sevenn.

And yes...some people don't mind when they find out they know people. It's when they don't know anyone in the house or coven and they're completely new to the site...and haven't really had time to make friends that I think is where one of the issues lies. I admit that I was never forced in to one either. Every I was moved to one it was because I knew the coven master and they would either ask me or I would ask to get traded there. I'm in my 3rd. But in all of them, I knew a few of the members right away. So I think that makes a big difference to.

If you get thrown in to a coven and you get quiet, a lot of times it's because you're shy or something and you have to do all this stuff...which depending on the place, you don't really have time to talk to anyone.

Kudos to you Vashti. I like that response.

I was busy making friends and trying to meet people first. I wasn't even thinking about the covens right away. Now it seems you have to though...so you can't really go by that.

And Sevenn...I'd be more than happy to start an alien thread if you want.

As far as in answer to the favor earning...we have gotten rid of the favor requirement in ours but still ask that you participate in the forums. Some do, some don't...but the ones that don't are usually on for long periods if time and gain a lot of favor...or just aren't comfortable talking in the forums...but are fine in private messages.

This is really fairly simple, those with the html muscles will do as they dam well please, be it fair or unfair. If you do not like it you have choices, delete your page, do not repay when your time is up, or stop coming in altogether. I know it "sucks" but what choice do we lesser "vampires" really have?

Since we are quoting here there's one that goes something like "Ultimate power corrupts ultimately"

To answer VampireWitch, no we have no favor requirements. Our basic ideal it to take profiles we like and wish to compliment or encourage to apply.

I have already traded several member who wished to goto another society.

Rogue i joined my coven not knowing anyone in the coven. That did not stop me from participating. I was lucky to get in a coven i requested but if i was forced into one I would still do the same thing i am doing

Ok so2283...I understand that. But that was you. Some will, some won't, when they are forcibly inducted. But I also think they if they are forced, they should given more leeway as far as when they ask to be traded. Some will trade right away, others won't. If someone asks us to be traded, we will do our best to get them there.

The chances of someone being a lot more active if they aren't forcibly inducted is higher though, in my opinion...as far as a whole at least.

I believe you are right "hurt", I stand corrected.

We are starting to digress from the question...

Why is considered a moral question?

It has seemed that many are making judgements based off of their person beliefs, and in doing so are behaving in a manner that I have honestly been shocked and appalled by.

Rogue i am not debating u i agree. I am not a fan of Forced inductions. What i am saying is the vr manual allows it and if it happens try out the coven and if u dont like it then try to get traded

Ok so...now I got you. And I understand it is in the manual. But with recent changes, you could easily have them petitioning a coven, and if they want in but the person isn't on to induct them, they can be brought in to another. I think that as long as they say immediately that they wish to be in a specific coven, a trade should try and be worked out...

As far as morally...all that I have recently inducted I have asked first. To me it is the right thing to do. But those are my morals. Others have different morals. That part is their choice. I try to be fair to everyone and ask, because I have come across a couple that hadn't even thought about it until I asked...or another friend already asked them to join their's when they reach that point.

Liebe, what are morals, if not personal beliefs? I think people are debating it on moral grounds because, quite frankly, they have no other grounds to stand on (excuse the mixed metaphor). For the most part, there is simply no basis for complaint. They are the ones who got themselves into this, and they can just as well get out. Some people will complain just to hear themselves talk. (Well, type, but you know what I mean)

"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in command."


Quote from Jayne off Firefly the TV show. LOL Sorry... just had to share it. :)

*

o.O

Ok, VW39 - THAT was funny shit...

I'm writin' that down....

rogue its good u stand to your morals. What if your coven master tells u that from this point we will force induct what do u do then. Do u forcr induct and go against your morales or do u not force and go against your coven master

just to answer your question Vampirewitch39, yes I did force induct before the favor system change, and was even threathen to have my coven disband by the ones I force induct, been told that I would be band off VR and kicked out fi I did not release them. The only difference is now, its not a crime.

Ok, now just a taugh about force indcution, lets say you got a great and cool job, awsome, really cool, then you enter the big office, with all small offices in it, as you walk you see nice desk and cool pc and all, very spacious, , as you go, the desk gets smaller, the offices gets less nice,more cheap, then you reach your office, its simple, cheap, fonctions well but, you dont have air conditioning, you can go and eat at the same place as everyone, and you got some priviledge....as time goes you get more, and get a better office, then you are place in a pack of office, with several others, "force" place there......You see your supervisor, the one who placed you there, you hate him/her,why? cause they force you there, what do you do? Accept and work your way up to be a supervisor? Or go whine ot the boss?


This is a simpel exemple, but it is showing that everywhere their is something "forcing" you to do soemthing or be somewhere you dont want, and you cant say nada...

I would not force induct. I may be an ACM, but we have others. They can choose to if they wish. But I still ask and would explain to my CM my reason for not wanting too. Then it is up to them to decide what they wish to do. To keep me at ACM or lower my status.

Images- I hope you did not take my question or concerns as being about you or House Eternal. While I do not post to the forum often, I do read and learn from my house members. I do not see myself leaving anytime soon.

I was just expressing some of the questions I believe the members of VR would be asking, having been inducted.

I should of worded it better.... as I can see upon reading it again. I was in no way talking about me. Sorry it read that way.

As a Sire I am aware I can leave at anytime. I joined your House after being free of a Coven for a month or more.

I wish to be in your House, and in no way in hell world would I start a Coven. Way to much work for me. :)

It is a fair thing to say each coven has to find what works for them, but then why is it a right or wrong ideal.

Let's face it, according to VR rules it is ALL right.

you didnt giv me a choice ur just full of urself liebe, or your a liar.

VR says its ok and we all agreed when we joined. there are no arguments weather u like it or not

I was not aware that you had been inducted. Private message me and we'll discuss this.

Ok I know this was meant to be a discussion but it is turning into more than that. No one is ever going to agree on this it is going to more than likely be a agree to disagree thing. This seems to me is turning more into a battle than anything.

what a bitch if you dont ---no youlet me goo!!!!!

And this is why forum threads get shut down. Let's be civil about all this.

I would have to agree with you FA. It will turn in to a battle. And as far as morals...it all comes down to the person. So that answers that question because everyone's morals is different. You could have one member that will force, one that will ask in every coven. The only way for it all to be fair is to let the CMs induct or one other...only one other...ACM induct...in every house and coven. But this is me and my morals, and my choice.

Hey I am sorry I think that is a little uncalled for but then again I don't know the whole situation. Just because you are unhappy about being inducted doesn't give you the right to call her a bitch damn i think that is a little inmature

Viola I suggest you watch your tone.

I personally do not see what the big issue is with it because the rule has always been there since I have been a member and as an ACM if anyone came to me and wasn't happy with the Coven then the CM and I would do something to fix the issue.

id be civil if let gooooo!!

Sahahria edit: Viola you just earned yourself a chance to go over the VR manual to review how to post in our forums

I think it is as simple as that but some don't seem to see it that way

This thread has been automatically closed for length.