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Good one Art, well thought out.

My personal take - most people, when they speak of immortality, they view it in the "never ceasing to live" definition. If that is the case, in a couple million or billion years when the sun expands into a red giant and consumes the Earth, will the immortal then live on a dying star?

Then what?

For me, immortality is better defined within the Webster's definition you gave... but my one addendum to that is... one can only be immortal as long as other humans or intelligent life that can carry on our conciousness exists.

birra, thank you

I think that goes a little deeper still.

'You can only be immortal if someone is there to witness it' leads us to the question, 'if there are no witnesses, can you be immortal'

If a tree falls in a wood and there is no-one there to witness it, does it make a sound?

LOL lets not go there

Right, there is that too.

Like I've said before, from a religious aspect... God might be all knowing and immortal, but if he never created anything, who would care?

The only part of me that I have ever considered immortal is my Soul.

Reincarnation via the human route or not.

Scientists say it isn't impossible that in the near future people can live a very long life. They are working very hard on cell rejeneration. The body breaks down. There would have to be something that causes this to happen. I don't think anyone who is a living being could not be killed if one tried or by an accident but the quality of longevity is what should be considered and space to live. It interests people to live forever and be able to see their children's children grow up. I think in certain ways there would have to be a price paid for the legth of time one would live if somewhat indefinite. What if this only worked on select individuals? You might have to watch everyone you love grow old and die. This is a grisly thought to me.

In the interest of living while immortal is complete rubbish. There would be tell tale signs that someone has been around for a long time! As people get older their skin loses elasticity therefore starts to sag, the hair grays and may fall out and cells die and dont regenerate. artemica(sp) (sorry if i spelled your name wrong, is a good answer that it is to preserve either your body of some other form for the rest of time, it is possible to freeze yourself, cryogenic freezing! although at the minuet a bit space age could work!

If immortality is simply continuing to exist, then we're all immortal because we're all physical and you cannot destroy the physical. You can change its form, but you can't destroy it with the one caveat that this may be reliant upon the rules generated by the universe as we know it. And since the evidence suggests that the universe (in the state we know), is finite, then perhaps it's possible that we will cease to exist when the universe transforms sufficiently to generate different laws governing whatever that universe may produce in its formation or "transformation".

Beastt17, that is an interesting twist to the debate and well thought out

Would that mean that before you consider the question of immortality / invulnerability, you would first have to define existence ?

To my mind, once something has been altered enough, then it has ceased to exist. If something is completely destroyed, I grant you that its atoms will still exist someplace, but what it was has ceased to exist.

Beastt17 is correct, but unless you are seeking to be a lump of carbon, then your best bet for immortality is through fame. However, in the very slight chance there is a "real" vampire out there, and you stumble across him/her. IF you are given the dark kiss, please remember us mere mortals, and turn us.

Great post, and if we think of it as immortality to live on forever, would in fact the undying of memories of the person you are carried on thru generations be another act of immortality. like abraham lincoln, or another famous figure who has passed yet their acts in their life seem to be still aroundfor us to hear about.
immortality in my opion is not living forever but never be forgotten in time, Vlad, kennedy men and women who name is always present and live on thru us.

Oh wow, yeah, deep topic.

Well...I believe the soul is immortal. The body rots. The body is temporary...most people believe that the soul is immortal- The body is mortal, it decays, it returns to the dirt, but the soul either is reincarnated, or goes on to the afterlife.
That's what I believe- because even as you age, you still have your personality. Your soul is ageless.
But that brings up the question, your soul may live forever- but is it invulnerable? Think about traumatic experiences- does that wound your mind, or does that wound your soul?
I think that it wounds your mind, therefore, that says that the soul is invulnerable, and immortal...
If the body and mind were invulnerable, you would be immortal. So I think invulnerability and immortality really do go hand in hand.

To go along with what Beastt was proposing, if our existence is forever because even after death our physical state will just change, then... what does our existence mean in the first place...

...if we are, then we were once something else. Or a combination of other things. We were created from something that once was... so it's existence continues on through us, but where does that existence end and our existence begin?

Is a Giant Sequoia immortal? Some have lived for hundreds of years. They do what Birra suggests, "if we are, then we were once something else. Or a combination of other things. We were created from something that once was... so it's existence continues . . . " the Sequoia is the earth, and bird shit, and forest detritus and whatever else it takes up through its roots and leaves to make it what it is.

The tree-falling-is-there-sound argument only works from a purely egocentric place for me. We're talking about this subject --- it lives in our brains --- therefore we give it life. But we alter it's reality, its existence.

Because the tree really is in the forest, standing or falling, without us around to use language which we think is the thing, the tree, the sound, but it's not. It’s a symbol or representation of the thing so the interpretation of it is infinitely (another word necessary for this discussion) varied as our brains and experiences allow it to be. All the discussions reduce down to "what does our existence mean in the first place?"

Language takes us away from existence, I think. It breaks the flow. It's not enuf to be immortal in a continuity sense, we have to parse it for every nuance, which is not existence. It becomes something else apart from existence.

Immortality is a mith. Anybody have no fact about the outcome of the afterlife (if it exist). So, I just live this life to the fullnes, by being kind to my others human being.

... and it was going so well too

Bloodmother, thank you for all that thought and work - I have to confess to reading your last sentence many times, without really grasping what you're saying. When you say 'It becomes something else apart from existence' what is the 'it' that you're talking about ?

Sorry, Artemka. "It" is existence. Any discussion of immortality seems to reduce to a definition of what existence is. Except for the scientific definitions ---growth evidencing life, etc. --- once we start discussing existence in terms of immortality it seems to me to be oxymoronic because existence in that context just is, and language creates a barrier to experiencing it.

I'm referring back to what others said above re. a Creator not existing without creating something to bear witness, and on to is their sound if no one's there to hear it.

The sound exists without us.

I've made it worse, haven't I?

perhaps spiritualy

Physically with offspring we are immortal. Our DNA lives continually throughout time.

I must say that this is an amazing topic. Could get violent! I have to agree with birra's first comment. To most creature's immortality is the 'never ceasing to live' which, in my opinion, is impossible. However, it is possible, in my mind, to continue with life. I have experienced what is known as deja vu far too many times to not believe in the reincarnation of the Soul. I am not banking on it mind you but it seems to be the only explaination for the moments of repetition that occur. I cannot bring myself to believe in the written definitions of immortality. It is my belief that immortalitys only correct definition is the one that each individual creates for her/himself.

I really don't believe that immortality is impossible in any sense. To me immortality is an unending state, a single way of being. It would be the ability to freeze someone in a single moment and have them there for eternity.

For humans, that is quite obviously impossible. At multiple periods in our lives every cell has been replaced by another, making us an entirely different being to what we were years previously.
Beyond that, even if a being were able to live forever, they would still change- if only in their experiences. Influences such as tragedies have the potential to kill certain parts of one's being, or so I believe. If you're alive long enough it's inevitable that all that you once were will be replaced.

As for immortality through fame, once again the changes caused by people's perceptions through time and even just another perspective or point of view, serves to create another being altogether.

I don't believe that immortality has any ability to exist because for that to happen you would need a being with the ability to NEVER change. To be everything they always have been, and for nothing they do, know, think or perceive to change. No part of them should be able to die, to be replaced.

So, find a being so unchangeable that their thoughts are the same as they were at birth, their actions the same and their cells the same and you've got yourself an immortal creature by my definition. ^.^

Eeeep. Sorry, typo. The first line should be: I really don't believe that immortality is possible in any sense.
Sorry!

would you really want to live forever. out living every one that you care about.

you would get to the point that you would bother to make Friends any more.......what would be the point.....they're just going to die anyway.

Bloodmother,

you are (of course) correct. If people are going to say that they are immortal - they first have to decide what they mean by immortal and then decide what they mean by existence, and then explain it to everyone before they get shot down with one liners

TemptingDeath

While I can understand that you don't want to get bogged down with written definitions, it is what makes the language work. Of course it is maddening when you can't find the word that exactly fits what you want - and you have to use something close that causes all sorts of problems ... you only have to look at the word 'vampire' on here to realise that nearly everyone is talking at crossed purposes LOL

Babaganoosh

now that's an interesting twist - we are not, from one moment to the next, the same person that we were before. I am sure there's a lawyer somewhere who can make a good defence out of that hehehe

I can't quite see how 'changing' affects existence. If you clip your toenails you don't cease to exist. It would only be in your own definition that immortality would be restricted to an unchanging existence (if that's the definition that you're running with and I have read it right).

Azzriel999

thank you for your contribution. I spent ages typing out the argument that immortality is not just 'living forever'

Doru,

I am so sorry I missed your reply.

Another good point, with DNA being passed from one generation to the next - that part of 'us' will live forever, until the whole family line stops.

We would have to think about Babaganoosh's point about changes affecting existence. With each offspring the DNA has changed slightly; part-mum part-dad. That would cause a new existence wouldn't it? A mule isn't a horse or a donkey, its a completely different creature.

or, have I misunderstood where you're coming from, are you saying that there is enough part DNA in each off spring that at that level, they are immortal?

Yup, you got it. ^.^
You see, if you were to chop that toenail off, you would still exist mostly as you were. Saving that toenail. That toenail would have just died.
To change some parts of you have to die. And I believe that if even a small bit of you dies you're not entirely immortal. And if you're not entirely immortal, you're not immortal at all.
Just my thoughts on the matter. =)

Babaganoosh

and a very good point, it is as valid as anyone else's in such a debate

If anyone has really studied this thread, and is thinking too deeply, please let us not get side-tracked into the possibility of an immortal toenail !

It is interesting to see that (most) people are considering 'existence' rather than life - most people will accept that life comes to an end and, if your definition of immortality is "never dying", immortality simply can't happen. This is a huge step in understanding as far as I can tell, it leads to a much deeper thinking of the problems, after all unliving things exist and so could be immortal.

Has anyone considered the make up of the word immortal yet?

We might also have to think about when you can say immortality has been achieved. After all if there is a chance that the immortality will end, whatever definition you have, it has not been achieved.

immortality is a matter of perspective?

your body may die but your memory always lives on im the hearts of friends and family so in that respect we are all immortal

Yeah, Artemka, but the toenail is already dead before it's clipped! lol. Just wanted to bring up the toenail to aggravate you.

Babaganoosh, while we are constantly replacing cells and in a very broad, general sense becoming new beings, our Brain cells don't replenish at the same rate (or at all, if I remember correctly), and our memories, habits, etc. remain the same, so we are the same personality. Unless, we choose to make changes.

The Sequoia remains a sequoia into the millennia if left undisturbed.

Immortality does not imply an "unchanging" modus to me.

For immortality to work for a sensient being, change and learning is necessary for survival.

In the words of Mr Mercury: Who wants to live forever?

well i think only God can be immortal.

If you ask me i believe both of them are correct in their definitions!

the only thing is , i believe we can only be immortal by achieving something greater , that makes us stay engraved on the pages of history , and be remembered forever!

thats the only way to be "immortalized" in my opinion!

Altough it would be TOTALLY SWEET to live forever!

Just imagine the amount of knowledge and experiences one could retain!!!

well my opinion is that Immortality is only through making a name for yourself and remembered forever in history, grant it many feel we will die and then live in a state of immortality through our souls .. that one I will have to wait to see if it is true.

artemka,

Even if DNA changes throughout generations of breeding, there are still traces of the original DNA throught out the new members. (i.e., that is why a child will have dormant DNA that only appears every couple of generations). And with the diversity of breading, the amount of one's DNA may be reduced but never end.

I agree with Doru - offspring let us continue on. Plus, some form of us is in the very molecules we breath in and exhale. So, in some small sense, we are all immortal.

Immortality and Invulnerability Hmmmmmm. Well lets see here, theres two ways of looking at this. First is as a god, which is highly unlikely to be accomplished by a mere mortal/human being. Secondly is that of a vampire. To which the vampire must die first in order to become immortal. So if must die first to become immortal your really not invulnerable in the first place are you. Also using a vampire as an example once more. Invulnerability means that "nothing" can harm you, but vampires have things that can kill them. So there can't be such a thing as being invulnerable can there?

This thread has opened my eyes to the meaning of Immortality. I aways had the idea that being immortal means you live forever but everyone has put forward good reasons on how we can be immortal without living.

For me, a form immortality can be what you leave behide like children or work that people remember you by that's a way that preserves oneself as immortal.

Excellent thread, I'm sorry I've missed so much of it while traveling...

A few questions though:

"well i think only God can be immortal"

Define god. Better yet, prove he exists. If he can't be proven to exist and the argument is "so many believe in him, then he is immortal..." well, then by that arguement so is Mickey Mouse.

"your body may die but your memory always lives on im the hearts of friends and family so in that respect we are all immortal"

Memories are very finite. I don't think they lend to immortality at all for common people. I'm only 3 generations removed from my great grandparents - I know they existed, but I have no memory of them and few stories. My kids won't even have stories. That is hardly immortal.

Now, if my great grandfather was.. say.. Hitler, or Churchill, then their memories or stories of them might last forever.

Genetically speaking, you pass down your DNA, but what about people who don't have children or choose alternate lifestyles? Immediate mortality?

This is a good subject.

I believe everything has a begining and an end.
So...where does that leave our souls....or the entity that had once occupied our biological bodies......immortal , at least in the spiritual sense?

To say one can be remembered forever , is to think under the roof of time. Time , I believe is infinitive.
Someday , prehaps not in our lifetime , an asteriod or what ever , will extunguish life here.
SO , what then ? If earth were to cease to exsist...what then of any "souls" , and the so-called immortality , through legend or reicarnation?

"Although they are only breath,
Words which I command
Are immortal."

-Sappho

And that's how I view immortality too :)

Gotta go with the view that immortalitly is acheived through doing things that make a difference in the world. To expand on that, I will borrow "The Words of God" from Blasphemy.

This is the reply when "god" is asked if he denies the existence of the immortal soul.

" Information is never lost. With the death of the body, the information created by that life changes shape and structure, but is never lost. Death is an informational transition.......Information in the universe can never die. Not one step, not one memory, not one sorrow in your life is ever forgotten. You as an individual will be lost in the storm of time, your molecules dispersed. But who you were, what you did, how you lived, will always remain embedded in the universal computation."

I rather enjoyed this view on death and immortality, even though it came from a fictional book - It makes me feel that this author found a more beautiful view on the subject than most religions have.

when looking at things this way - everyone is immortal as everything they do will always matter. I beleive that we are all connected so everthing one does matters as it affects many others. Weather one realizes this or not is a mute point!

I liked your answer daemona.