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with november 11th having come and gone rememberance as a concept has been on my mind a lot lately as a follower of the goddess and her consort.
I am a strong proponent of the idea of never forget and never again....but to most people this only refers to the happenings perpetrated to the jewish in world war 2...it has a much deeper meaning to me....over the centuries many hundreds of thousands of "our"people have been totured and killed for reasons not dissimilar to that used against the jews....we are healers,and users of powers that the common man does not profess to understand....does this give others the right to torture us and burn us at the stake?I realise that this has not happened in a very long time and yet I wonder how little a spark it really takes to fan a flame of hate and retribution once again there are after all places left in the world where people are killed for witchcraft......few yes....but in this day of the enlightened man they do still exist.
I feel the pagan communities of the world need to at least try to unite.....have some manner of day of rememberance of our own.... after all those who forget the mistakes of the past are forever doomed to repeat them....we are in a time where many things are accepted......and yet in the city I grew up in we experienced a modern day witchhunt as it were after a few unfortunates with an interest in the occult decided to end their pain in final ways....after the fact all of us who were left had to deal with religious persecution of a type not seen in decades in alberta....
I myself was not even a preactitioner at the time....I was actually a member of the christian church who had an interest in research on the occult....nothing more....and that mixed with an enjoyment of heavy metal and a fondness for leather jackets caused me to be under surveillance for almost six months....I have seen the files on me...it does happen in real life...not just the movies boys and girls....I realise that to get the owrld community to acknowledge something like this would be nigh impossible...but on the other hand every revolution must begin with an idea....and a few people who are fed up with the reality of their station......any ideas people?

*rolls eyes*

Until you witches get your act together and produce beautiful things or perform generous acts, you'll never have respect. To quote from one of your favorite books, Daer, "the hypocrite who pretends to be good does less harm than the open sinner."

You post both breaks and strengthens my heart. I'm glad to see this arise, dear heart.

I hope that one day people will stop fearing-- but that will never be the case.

As long as there are herds, sheep-like persons in droves across the globe with their religion or way of life being the 'only' way, we will -always- be persecuted.

Even now, when Sister Mary Margaret saw my interest in Wicca, she said she'd like to borrow, to read the books I had. I did let her read them-- Scott Cunningham and RavenWolf at the time.

She said if this is how I felt in the depths of my heart, and felt that beign a part of the church would only be a lie-- to go. To go, and be what I felt was right in -my- heart. I shouldn't be a captive to what others believe. Who knows what path would lead me to my purpose and greatness.

She still sends me Christmas cards.

I felt a sadness the day I left her office, and even now I think about her fondly.

I've gone out to heal, I've gone out to change myself and others in order to grow. Tattoos, piercings, Wiccan, HLV and all.

I will never, never accuse another of being in the full 'wrong.' However, if I -do- feel they are in need of correction as to what somethig really and truly is... I will voice myself. It's my nature to teach, to heal, to help grow.

I should probably shut up now. I'm sure some are already pissed. *laughs*

miz, your ignorance will be your demise. as for your question babe, i say, why not have a day of rememberance? christianity has at least two holidays i know of in celebration of their supposed saviour, here in oz we have a minute silence once a year to remember the anzacs who went to war in turkey so why not have a day of rememberance for the slaughter of hundreds of innocent women,children and animals? people are open to every religion exept the craft because of the fear christians gave people back in the days of salem and they will always fear what they do not understand. unfortunately i've come to the conclusion that they will never understand.

oh and miz, now that you've got me going, you say we do nothig "beautiful" right? can i ask you, define beautiful? i suppose mass murders can be described as beautiful yes? hundreds of screaming, burning corpses does that turn you on? maybe you're right, maybe we should start picking christians off and start returning the favour, after all, witches are only satanic whores. tell me, how can we follow a god we don't believe in? ive never seen one good thing christians have done that would earn them respect.

All I can say is a "I agree" to Nara. I agree that one should never truly forcefully change someone or punish them for individuality. A comment is more helpful than a judgement in gettnig your opinoin across. I think yeah, people have suffered and yeah they've died but, what has that shown others? It has shown many how not to be and others to stand up for themselves. Change all over the world always begins with one voice. One voice and a crowd of agreement has and will continue to be the winning method of getting views across. I think that if you want to be heard, then speak louder. If you are still not being heard speak LOUDER. In time what you feel in your heart will be said to whomever has the likeness in theirs to understand. Remembrance is a good thing because it teaches us pain and joy and how to live life to the fullest. Anyways I am done rambling.
Danielle

well i find it interesting that while some of you sit there and say that you don't like being stereotyped into the wicked witch/ evil wizard/ dangerous vampire, you are perfectly willing to stereotype all christians into one group.
i am christian, and i don't care how you feel about it. I won't push any of my beliefs onto you, and i'd appreciate you not pushing any onto me.
on the other hand, i am quite happy, to dress goth/dark, and dabble in some areas of the crafts, i just believe that i am more wary of wot can happen and the dangers.

Miz don't walk the walk if you cant back it up with actions. I am sorry everyone but I am about to go off the deep end(even if it means losing my account). Miz, you know nothing! I have been fighting for five long years for us witches to be recognized as equals. I have even bleeded for this cause, so don't you EVER, try to talk us down, I have fought for too long and too hard for you to come along and say shit like that. AND I KNOW for a fact I am not the only one who has a problem with what you have said. Some of us either are in fear of losing our accounts if we speak like i am, but you know what if this was face to face, you would be going to jail for racism my friend. Almost all who are of vampire or wiccan decent have felt pain and suffering through the years, and yes we may not have the respect we deserve yet, but we will not force respect on anyone or anything, that is against our ways of living. Have you witnessed your friends and family being shot down for who they are, yeah its not nice. Have you ever been attacked just cause you wear a pentacle around your neck? I doubt it, for if you have you would not have said what you have. Yeah that qoute does have some meaning to it. But you know what, qoutes mean nothing actions and words in front of the people mean something. Can you muster up the courage to stand up in front of a whole auditorium on almost nothing but Christians and say who and what you are and tell them what they have done to us? No I doubt that alot. So before you try telling us what we should and shouldnt do, i would advise that you learn about our fight before even muttering a word about it.

as a side note to my previous post, i do believe that practioners of the craft as a whole have been unfairly mistreated over time

I agree with you to a point Triad, however, we have been mistreated, and i have no problems with Christians, my ex fiance was a Christian. If there were more people like you, there wouldnt be need for the fights and debates on respect. But unfortunately there are those who see us as Satans children or abominations or whatever they believe us to be. I dont point everything at the Christians i dont even point it at a particular religion, i only point at the masses that discriminate us, nothing more.

i also believe that we pagans should have a day of rememberance. it is long over due. our ancestors were buthered for what they believed in, and i believe we owe them that at least. And as for you Miz, you really should re-think what you wrote. the pagan comunity has done numerous acts of good. why dont you try learning, before posting your ignorance.

As one whose beliefs are most closely aligned with a combination of wicca and Taoism, a day of unity would be a good thing, I think.

I am not going to go into any religion or individual bashing here, I simply have one comment:

Long before Christianity ever even was, the Goddess and her Consort have been revered.

I don't practice wicca but i feel an affinity (likeness??) to wiccans as if I HAD to choose a religion it would be wiccan but i do agree there should be a rememberence day for the ppl who made it more possible to be carried out today (rituals/openess e.t.c) and "lest we forget" now this may p"ss some ppl off but (personal rule say what you got to say AGAIN) i wish to be a healer myself (nurse/paramedic) not for money or glory but to help ppl and that is right (to me) and i can relate to wiccans who have never ever ill treated me but christianity is a &^%*&^* look at the wars the suffering the oh self rightousness it makes me sick.So yes you should hve your rememberence day YOU HAVE EARNED it oh and miz er nice way to say this..................SHUT THE F*UCK UP wiccans are SURROUNDED AND EMBRACE ALL beuty its the most chilled respectful decent religion in my opinion (i respect all religions jus prefer paganism)
P.S> Sorryif I put wiccan instead of paganism I get confused

Let me clarify something, facism has nothing to do with religion - facism has a strange notion of God, more in line with the ideas of that wanker Hegel. So don't any of you dare introduce christianity into this debate; Daer didn't, I didn't (well I did, but I had no intention of doing it).

Mortallover, I love your post, you understood me, and all your ideas resonate with me. But why do we need a remembrance day to remember people who suffered for truth : Socrates, Galileo, Martin Luther (both of them), Ghandi, Mandela, I remember them without a remembrance day.

Witches, show me your love and your beautiful things and I'll remember, but don't ask for a remembrance day simply because you believe you're persecuted.

**giggle**
Am I the only one hearing the Scarecrow's theme from Wizzard of Oz playing from somewhere in Miz's general direction?

Miz do you know any real witche's??
Not the media portrayal of broom and black pointie hat.
I know a witch or two and their the most decent loving kindest ppl I've ever met so seriously get a book (thick things usually filled with print on pages i.e paper) and educate yourself

Ok, I'm going to step up an do something that''ll probably buy me a lot of scorn from the general population: I got your back, Miz.

WAIT! Before anyone starts throwing tomatos! (is that with an e or not?)

I'm not defending his position in this thread.

I'm completely neutral as far as the Wicca/Pagan/Facism thing. I'm not even addressing the topic of his thread. Yet.

I want to say this about Miz. He pisses me off, too, sometimes. BUT! He's the only person who regularly pisses everyone off and does so in such a way as to spark some of the more spirited and intelligent debates in these forums. Am I wrong? He's (usually) well spoken and expresses himself well. Sure, I think it's done to piss people off, at times, but I admit that he's part of this "community" we call the Rave. Every family has it's black sheep. He's certainly no dummy, though he tends to shoot his mouth off without having a solid backing for some of the things he says. I'd rather read his posts than the dross in the myriad of "What's your favorite..." threads, any day.

Say what you will, but he tends to bring out a spirit of debate in the forums that I enjoy. I just wish he woulnd't be so personally insulting to people. But, hey, everyone has their thing, I guess.

Now, to get back to the spirit of the thread: speaking of rememberance...

Today is December 7th.

If you have Miz' back, I take his front :)
Miz has balls and a brain.. a very rare combination indeed.

Indeed it is, Jason... the date that will live on in Infamy... as i recall??.... =)

This thread makes me want to watch Braveheart. ::goes to get popcorn:: You know Mel Gibson's Charrie stood up for what he wanted until his very last breath. That movie has always been an inspiration for issues like this.

As for me, I believe that every religion has a right to celebrate remembrance in the way of their own choosing
providing it is lawful, however, what I don't believe in is the public ear bashing of individuals, and running them
down in a public forum. That's just bad taste, and lacks decorum and integrity

I have to agree, Miz has balls. If that's what he thinks, let him think it. All you can do is inform him, and besides, aruging and calling him narrow minded and such isn't going to make him nor anyone else for that fact convert their way of thinking. It's most likely going to push them further into thinking the way they do.

"WAIT! Before anyone starts throwing tomatos! (is that with an e or not?)"

I always have to ask myself that too!

Well, I mean if he's a guy I hope he has balls....:P

No one said the world is fair. I agree, everyone is entitled to their oppinion (though Cancer may disagree *coughthereisnospooncough*).
However brash, uneducated and simple minded it may seem to some... put yourselves in that persons shoes for a minute. What gives Miz cause to think like this? An experience as a child/adult? Upbringing, maybe? The iron fist of the Church and its' purse strings?

No one knows. Obviously, whatever it was/is, has given this person strong convictions in this matter.

Speaking of strong convictions.. I think, for those of you that know me well enough, I have managed to hold my tongue on my personal oppinion on what I think of what Miz said.
For once I'm trying NOT to be the asshole. I think I'm doing rather well... considering it is the holiday season and all=)
I try to be fair in everything I do. For those times I come out the side of my neck at people.. I think its safe to say thats not one of those times *ahem*...
Grrr... I digress, after all my favorite topic is me *slygrin*... ANYWHO...
Blessed Be to all of you Wiccans, out there... Happy Hanukkah... Merry Kwanza...

Words of the immortal Ghost of Christmas present----

"Are there no work houses? Are there no prisons?.. But if he is to die then let him die... and DECREASE THE SURPLUS POPULATION."

Apparently the powers that were saw that to do just fine, Miz...
Merry Christmas.

hey I am not trying to talk down to Miz or anything like that i just think he should have asked before putting something like that he seriously did hurt a lot of people. Alot of my friends on the rave that read that was upset. Look i aint trying to cause turmoil, if anything i want unity amongst us. So please Miz, don't go saying stuff like that without thinking of the reactions yo might get. Well anyway i got to go my day to leave back to NY is finally Here. Talk to you guys again in a month or so when i get my new computer

Somehow I think the point WAS the reaction, darling.

yea, I think Miz set his statement up for open debate with other VR members, but somehow I think it rather degenerated into a mudslinging match!!

hey Khay you ready fer the ring? get a practise in fer the real thing heh *hugtacklespounces the pretty Khayman*

If I got upset over every ignorant comment on the internet I would have probably commited suicide by now. I mean come on, ONE PERSON. It's not that big of a deal, try to teach him that it is OKAY to be different, to not practice Christianity, etc instead of telling him he's wrong instead of telling him "show" him (although your guess is as good as mine how you are supposed to do that over the net, I am sure there are SOME ways). I mean, it's kind of like this: If I had to be offended at every racist person I ever met I'd have no life. It's probably from a past expierience that he thinks this way, and hopefully someday he will learn to be more accepting, but he has to figure that out on his own.

Didnt i pretty much just say that?

*grrrrrrr's at emmy**
What out sister... you may get more than you planned on...
*wickedgrin*

Heh, I am not the one going into a *live* ring..but I wanna see the vid sister! ;)

Heh... talk to Melody and Jason, sugar.. *I* don't have a camra=)

As for the 'ONE PERSON' comment: Hitler was one person. So was/is/will be the Dali Llama(sp?). There will always be one person, no matter what the fight, arguement, conversation.

I feel there is a memorial day, dear-- and there will always be one in your heart. As long as -you- take that day, week, month seriously, who's to say it isn't a holiday?

As a Wiccan going on 8+ years, some of my best friends have been another race, religion or creed.

In fact, 'RJ', one of my best guy friends is a devout Christian. And gay. So is the pastor in the church he goes to.

Jenni is the sweetest, cutest little herm-->female I have ever met. Shi's with hir grrlfriend in Idaho right now, enjoying some much needed reasurence that hir transformation in the next 2-3 years will be completed, thy wil be together, and they will be happy. Bless them both.

You can feel free to make a stink all you want, but AGAIN, the matter that means most is this: As long as it means something to you, it's something. Who cares if the rest of the world doesnt agree with it, or even in the person sitting next to you in the movies or class, etc. They will be as they are, and we will be as we are.

This is coming from a queer-minded girl who has never slept with another woman, and is deeply in love with her Niles... and wouldn't mind a nuzzle in some soft pillows herself. ;)

Let's -all- visit all those who 'live' in hell-- I'll drive. *jingles keys*

SHOTGUN!!!

Oh goody I fired up a shitstorm…..the forums needed a good kick in the intellect.

Now before I respond I just wanna put a bit of personal background into this
On MSN I go by jester… the classical job of a jester was not to make people laugh…It was to humble people through ridicule….to make you think by forcing you to face that which you hide from yourself and others are too polite to mention….
I will stand with Jason in the tomato is that with an “e” gallery here….at first sight of miz’s post I was very pissed off….red faced kill with a dull butterknife kind of pissed off…..then I turned the ridicule microscope inwards….and people the man is right…..Miz may sound like a closed minded moron at first……but take a closer look people.
As Jay…do you mind me shortening it to jay… said, every post he makes is confrontational…..but usually in a way that causes discussion……perhaps I am not the only one who understands what a jester stood for.
However in response to his statements
As to beauty-Is it less beautiful to worship the divine essence as it were in a quiet wooded glade with a trickling stream that to worship in a cold carved stone edifice gilded with the gold of slaughtered south american tribes ie: inca, aztec, toltec etc.. etc..
And generousity…..has nothing to do with religion as I know satanic bikers who go in the ride for sight….a charity for the blind….and the toy run…..giving toys to poor children at christmas and various others….
It is a personal choice not something you do because a clergyman says to….and if that is the reason you do it then you need to look at your priorities in life…..you cannot buy your way into heaven….
I feel I do have the right to be one to bring these things up….I have sat faithfully in the church……it was a wonderful place with a good feeling till I got to know the people…..then I found bitterness hatred, and the worst one of all….the one I could not resign myself to….hypocrisy…..when it became apparent that my leather jacket with an anarchy symbol was considered more disruptive to the church than the repeated criminal activities upon church members by some of the “popular” younger people in the church I felt I had to leave……I have not yet found this type of hypocrisy in paganism…..I do not doubt it is there…..but I doubt it is as strong…..we tend to be less fanatical….well some of us anyways….
Ok the point to the post was this….I feel that we ought to be accorded what others have….nothing more nothing less….these people died for our future….no different than the christians in the roman pits….
It is up to us to acknowledge this…..as I said….all revolution must start with an idea and a few people to push it forward…..that is all…..a few dedicated souls….
Also in retrospect…..MANY MANY of those who died by the fires were good god fearing christians people…not even pagan….but they died in a cause attributed to us….so this rememberance is for them also…..I am seeking a day of rememberance for those who have died by religious persecution….not a war rememberance….that already exists….I want a rememberance day of intolerance and persecution….but being pagan myself the way I propose it gets colored by that.
When we speak of witch burnings mostly Salem comes to mind…..less than 50 people were executed there….a mere pittance….
Between the 1500’s and 1700 in england around a thousand died….mostly by hanging
In scotland and the continent over one hundred thousand met the flames

Another note on the peacefulness and loving god of christianity as a finish for Miz
Exodus chaper xxii, verse 18 states: “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”
How this relates to thou shalt not kill escapes me…..but feel wecome to respond again miz….
Fan the flames….it fuels the intellect



O Christian Martyr Who For Truth could die
When all about thee Owned the hideous lie!
The World, redeemed from superstitions sway,
Is breathing freer for thy sake today.
-written by john greenleaf whittier and inscribed on a monument marking the grave of rebecca nurse…one of the victims of salem-

I must say.. very well put Daer. :)
I do agree that there should be a worldwide day to remember all those who stood up for what they believe in and have paid with their lives to allow us to live as freely as we do. Yay for remembering those who died in violent, physical wars, but a day for all those who have fought an unheard of war of life as an individual, daring to be open and be proud of their faith, whatever that may be. Besides from pagans being killed, many christians have been killed throughout history too in places where that was not the favored religion. the same goes for Buddhism, satanism, and any other faith out there. So, I guess what I'm saying is that there should be a day for everyone to stop and thank all of those who are still fighting to keep their faith alive today, as well and think of all those who have given their lives in the past for standing up for what they believe in. Everyone can celebrate it in their own faith, as long as we do not forget how lucky we are to be living in a world where we can live our lives and be ourselves and not have to hide who we are to the rest of the world.
Another way of looking at this topic, is that we should be remembering all those killed for our freedoms everyday, not just on day a year. Too many serious events in our history have been turned into holidays so that we can have an excuse for one more day off work each year.. one more day we get presents or candy, or one more excuse to spoil ourselves, who(most anyways) have never had to feel the pain of having to hide who they are or be persecuted for what they believe in.

Again sadly, majority rules with this.

However, once put into context, every veteran, no matter what Creed should be represented.

Wow Dearmon! :P

Daer, when I die can I be buried in you quiet wooded glade with a trickling stream, and Alassiel could you stamp on my grave the epitaph : 'miz, your ignorance will be your demise.'

:

I would not be just a nuffin'
My head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry
Life would be a ding-a-derry
If I only had a brain--Whoa!

All this just makes me giggle... Im proud we all apparently have no problem whatsoever stateing whuts on our minds...hehehehe

::skips down the yellow brick road ::

Here's to National Ding-a-Derry Rememberance Day!

3 cheers!

Huzzah!!
You know us injuns...any excuse to get comfy with the drop =)

Ehm... just so long as it ain't Chardoney..

Please forgive me if this is a product of years of false media crap into my head but i thiought Indians had a "peace pipe"??

We do... hehe... but fire-water works just as fine >:)

AAhhh you listen somethin everyday (is that why I go to college lol)

Sorry learn not listen 9music on the brain and not sex WOAH there's a first lol)

Very well said Daer, and charzi (I think I have the name right)

and ::blink blink:: Miz, sugar, did you just do the scarecrow dance? *big grin*

I appreciate the role various people play in my life as jesters - those who hold up an inner-mirror as it were.

*Clink* Cheers, all.

LOL, Jason I'll drink to that one too!

Miz...i'm sure alassiel would be happy to bury you before stamping said epitaph....hehehehe
but yes.....from nature we came....to nature we go....
or to quote a great movie
"the worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, the worms play inacle in my snout"
by the way your not allowed to speed said demise dear.....the boy was just asking to be buried....but not alive....hehehe

I think I speak for all, Daermon, when I say that you just took all the fun out of helping that young man in his wishes....
ROFLMAO!!

hehehe ya but i don't want the girl too bloodthirsty...it could come back to haunt me when she comes to canukland....hehhe
besides.....death is so final....you cant torture anymore once they are dead....
grin

I like this man... I like him a lot.
*evil grin*

Make any remembrance day you like... But don't you dare make it a national holiday. We have far too many of those already.

Why should I be denied bank transactions, stock purchases, and my mail because it is Martin Luther King Jr's birthday?

and don't forget that trash doesn't get picked upeither :: puts on her disgusted face::

and close the schools...
making parents parent their young..ill tell you... what has society come too..

hey now...I am all for the homer simpson national day.......