Nothing is wrong with it...people should be, and are, free to believe whatever they want no matter how ridiculous it may seem to others. For example, I dont believe in Cleveland...no place can be as dull as it is described as being.
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass"
Beause, as Pat Condell so aptly put it, faith, aka the belief in something for which there is no evidence (in this case, there appears to be some anecdotal evidence, but only so) is dangerous to your mental health. I don't want to become engaged in a religious debate, but if something is physically impossible, I find no reason to respect someone's faith in it. Someone claims there was a vampire attack. They took pictures and desecrated a corpse because they believed a corpse was attacking people during the night. Even this is more believable than the more modern storybook nonsense, and it's STILL IMPOSSIBLE. Unless someone can provide a physical link from a metaphysical occurrence, I might give a second thought to the idea, but so far, no one's provided a rational explanation as to why it would be possible for an immortal vampire to exist.
Blind faith is dangerous, people. Millions upon millions have been murdered for blind faith. Hitler, the crusades, the inquisition, etc.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs , whether or not they are shared by they masses, still not all can agree . What I don't like is when others put you down for your beliefs. It is not a bad thing to believe what is in your heart.
Beliefs of faith are devoid of evidence. Otherwise, they'd be beliefs of evidence. How many times have beliefs of faith turned out to be true?
I can't think of a single time. Reality leaves evidence... objective evidence.
Faith leaves victims.
This has got to be the only time I've ever agreed with Beast. On anything. Faith is dangerous. Belief in fact and repeated personal experience (and not so much the latter) are the only respectable beliefs. If a murderer believes in his/her (let's not get sexist here, lol) heart that it is right to kill someone for any reason, does that make it right, or better yet, respectable?
Im jumping in here too..Blind faith DOES leave victims and lead to discourse.
La6Muerte66,Beast? I agree 110%
okay, I'll play devils advocate.
Faith is dangerous?? and specifically, you mean faith in Christianity, right?
I'll stack the bodies of the victims of atheism against ALL the 'victims of faith'. All of them.
The victims of atheism outnumber the victims of faith 1000 to 1. Inquisition, Puritans, Salem witch trials, and Jonestown vs. Pol Pot for example.
Next, you'll try to tell me that Hitler was a Christian -- he was not.
Sure, horrible things have been done in the name of religion. That doesn't mean that faith itself is inherently dangerous. Conversely, there are immeasurable numbers of good things done in the name of faith. Things of beauty have been created for its sake. Poems written. Songs sung. Lives saved. Chains broken. Etc.
Faith can be a powerful thing; it freed the slaves in America, brought down the Berlin Wall, and inspires people to free themselves from oppression the world over. Why? Because these aren't purely rational goals. By comparison, secular humanism fails to ignite the same level of passion. It can't. It never will.
If a few people find faith and comfort in dream-catchers, shamanism, bigfoot, vampires, chupacabras, unicorns, or whatever -- especially without any empirical evidence to support it -- I think it says more about our desire to believe in something bigger than ourselves.
it's not that i need to believe in Vampires, I just like to.
First off, Pol Pot and 'Communist' regimes cannot be attributed to atheism, as it cannot be proven (or even soundly supposed) that atheism was the motivation behind these tyrannical leaders.
I don't mean to make it seem like Christianity is all I'm attacking, it's just one of the two most blatant displays of faith-inspired atrocities.
Yes, Hitler was a Christian, and he felt he was doing the work of God by eradicating the Jews, as stated in Mein Kampf.
I don't remember where I saw this quote, but I feel it's applicable, "Without religion, there would still be evil people doing evil things and good people doing good things; it is only with religion that we can have good people doing evil things."
"Faith can be a powerful thing; it freed the slaves in America, brought down the Berlin Wall, and inspires people to free themselves from oppression the world over. Why? Because these aren't purely rational goals. By comparison, secular humanism fails to ignite the same level of passion. It can't. It never will."
And your evidence that faith is in any way responsible for ANY of these things is......? Yes, they ARE rational goals, and slavery of Africans was initiated because white Protestants believed they were superior to these godless savages. Same with Manifest Destiny. Don't tell me faith ended it the same way. Also, there is no way for you to rationally argue that faith can ignite any more passion than secular humanism. You mean to say that irrational belief in something makes us appreciate helping fellow human beings more? Last I checked, I didn't need to believe in an imaginary man in the sky to feel good about donating money to Haiti or helping fund the fight against AIDS. I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do.
Shit, and I'm not even an atheist!
I do not believe in the "Hollywood" vampire, its just to way out of there for me. The idea of one so powerful & magical is one I find fictional. Those of other ways less extreme could be real. Sorry but Hollywood has made the image just to pretty to believe.
I didn't claim you were an atheist, La6Muerte66.
How you justify altruism is irrelevant. I see it as a sign of faith, even if you do not.
you claimed "Belief in fact(s) and repeated personal experience (and not so much the latter) are the only respectable beliefs. "
I'm just saying that it's not the "only" respectable belief.
Faith is respectable, for the reasons I listed.
You also agreed with this statement: "faith, aka the belief in something for which there is no evidence (in this case, there appears to be some anecdotal evidence, but only so) is dangerous to your mental health."
Which suggests that if we believe in something without any evidence, we're potentially delusional. This is something that Bill Maher says and I disagree with it.
re: slavery
The Abolitionist movement was started by the Quakers and evangelicals who considered slavery un-Christian. Christianity didn't invent slavery as you indicate, but it certainly took advantage of it for the reason you state. You are correct about that, but I don't believe it's fair to blame Christianity for this.
Separating communism from atheism is like separating a tiger from his stripes. There's a reason why communism and atheism are compatible with each other. The whole "religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind. If atheism isn't a motivational factor in genocide, with respect to Pol Pot, why did he target Buddhists and abolish their religion? Because faith poses as much a threat to his vision of national unity (communism) as capitalism does.
Again, I'm merely playing devil's advocate with regard to faith in general.
[back on track]
I don't see the harm in believing in vampire mythology, there's something romantic about immortality and vampire folklore. None of us would be on this site if we felt otherwise.
There are some people that have trouble with having faith in things that they cannot see with their own eyes, those people are realists and are entitled to their own opinion.....I choose to not let it bother me much, there will be people that believe and then there will be people eho dont, or who criticize....If those people choose to attack those who believe then they should be ignored because it is simply showing how ignorant they are.
I feel that you can believe watever you wanna believe but you also should respect everyone else's religious points of view no matter how farfetched they seem to you.
"I didn't claim you were an atheist, La6Muerte66.
I didn't mean to make it seem like you did. I was just pointing out the absurdity that I was so vehemently defending atheism when I myself am a pagan. lol.
Hmmm...Faith. No there is nothing wrong with faith and belief in ceterain things as long as they are not taken to the extremes.
Yes "Faith" is a powerful belief. "Faith" and "Beliefs" have caused entire civilizations to grow and disapper into the dust.
We all have very common beliefs that we have faith in everyday. Deny what you will, But one has faith in thier abilities. One has faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. One has faith that when they close thier eyes at night that they will open in the morning. These are just examples of small faiths we never think about on a day to day basis.
But "Faith" also corrupts. "Faith" that drive us to hate and fear others. "Faith" that turns us against individuals with different "faiths" must be gaurded against. That kind of "faith" has caused entire nations to exterminate eachother over the stuipest things.
So "Faith" that Vampires exist is not wrong. But if that "Faith" drives you to actions that put others in harm, or drive you to attack others simply because of this "faith", is wrong.
OniKumo,
Re: "No there is nothing wrong with faith and belief in ceterain things as long as they are not taken to the extremes."
Holding belief in that for which there is no supporting objective evidence is already an extreme. It's belief without cause to believe. If an air-traffic controller were to set a book over their radar screen and begin directing planes without the evidence needed to do so safely, wouldn't that already be a rather "extreme" thing to do?
It's important for people to understand that "extreme" is just one of today's buzz-words. It means nothing until one can establish a mid-point. People suggest that it's okay to eat anything, just as long as it's not taken to "extremes". But before one can determine what is extreme, they need to understand what is moderate. What is the moderate amount of arsenic for one's diet? What is the extreme?
The same holds true for faith-based beliefs as holds true for arsenic. Zero is the moderate amount. More than that is an extreme. And history shows over an over that faith-based beliefs will always lead to the torment and death of people. So it's always an extreme.
--
Re: "We all have very common beliefs that we have faith in everyday."
This is untrue.
---
Re: "one has faith in thier abilities."
No. One has evidence of their abilities. It's an evidence-based belief, not a faith-based one.
Now, if one were to engage in an attempt to conquer Everest without ever having any experience as a mountain climber, rock-climber, or with cold, high-altitude environments, the belief that they could conquer Everest would be faith-based. And it would kill them.
---
Re: "One has faith that the sun will rise tomorrow."
No, we have evidence that the sun will become visible on the morning horizon. We know of the relationship between the sun and the Earth. We have every day of our lives to stand as evidence that the morning sun will become visible on the horizon. None of that is based in faith.
---
Re: "One has faith that when they close thier eyes at night that they will open in the morning."
Again, this is not faith; this is belief based in evidence. Every night that you've closed your eyes and every morning that you've opened them has been additional evidence to support the belief. None of it is based in faith.
Such attempts to support faith as a positive are likely to be given by those who want to hold beliefs on faith, yet can't provide any examples of where faith is actually beneficial. And that is the majority of people. But when they attempt to provide examples, they always fail simply because such examples don't exist.
I think that everyone should just respect others religious poits-of-views and just leave it at that.
"The same holds true for faith-based beliefs as holds true for arsenic. Zero is the moderate amount. More than that is an extreme."- So I guess you don't eat any apples. LOL LOL LOL
And "Faith" is what allows one to push what they have already proven they can do. To Continue to strive harder at the abilities you have. Yes a Rock Climber can prove he can climb on treachorous mountain. But it is his "Faith" in his abilities that allow him to climb higher. To go furthur. To say "I can do this."
And yes we have scientific proof that the sun rotates and reappears every day. But it is the "Faith" that something will not happen between the time you go to bed and the time you wake up that it will be there tomoorw. How many times have people just died in thier sleep? Brain anerisms (pardon my spelling.) Have killed people out of nowhere.
There are certain "Faiths" and "Beliefs" we have that we never think about. Like your "Faith" you are right. That you will convinve the world and everyone hear that infactic proof is all that exists in the world. Yet with out faith in more, what would be the point of continuing your existance. To just wake and move untill the clock winds down and you return to the cycle of food you came from.
Just a point of view. >;]
LOL LOL Smarter than your average bear, eh BooBoo? LOL LOL >;]
By the way, the sun doesn't rotate and reappear everyday. The Earth rotates, aligning various points on it's surface with the rays from the Sun.
Beastt17
dude take a breath and breath the more he is able to back up his point of view the more you wine like a welp., he has demonstreated a very complening idea, and a good argrument , you just keep re peating , show us something new then re wording what you have said so many times already
i have fait, am i religious no , religion and faith dont mix with me, i have faith i will do what i need to , thats about all my faith goes to
and to answer the question
there is nothing wrong with having faith in something such as if vampires do exist , if there was on faith in anything what would be the point of living there would be nothing to go for
cryingmoon,
If you have something to add to the conversation, then please do so. Your objections are simply that I keep demonstrating the evidence behind things OniKumo keeps trying to claim are faith-based. As long as OniKumo keeps making false assertions, there is nothing inappropriate about demonstrating that they're false, even if it becomes repetitious. If OniKumo keeps repeating false assertions, I'll continue to show them to be false.
Your problem seems to be that you disagree with me, yet can't demonstrate any flaw in my reasoning.
I'm not whining. I'm demonstrating reason. I suggest you learn the difference.
Now; have you anything to present for either side in the discussion, or do you plan to continue tossing insults toward anyone with whom you disagree, even as you demonstrate your own inability to refute any of the points I've demonstrated?
If you just want to insult people because you disagree with their demonstrably correct points, this isn't the place.
"I don't eat the seeds.
But even if the "meat" of the apple contained arsenic, the point would be that arsenic isn't something you should consume at all; just as faith isn't anything to which you should subscribe at all.
Arsenic is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount.
Faith is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount."
-According to that logic. The ultraviolet rays in sunlight is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount. So we all become "shut ins" and never go outside. LOL
---
"Re: "And 'Faith' is what allows one to push what they have already proven they can do."
That's not true. If one has already proven an ability, then they base their belief in that ability on the evidence provided by the "proof" (really, really bad word, by the way), not on faith.
Re: "But it is his 'Faith' in his abilities that allow him to climb higher."
That's not faith because it's based in evidence -- the evidence he has demonstrated in the past, combined with the neural signals (more evidence), he's receiving when he has reached a point to which he has climbed in the past. Faith is belief devoid of objective evidence. You keep tossing out evidence, and then claiming it's faith. When one has evidence, they have zero need for faith. Faith is only employed to provide belief where evidence is absent."
-So the rockclimber who has climbed to 20,000ft has already proven they can go to 50,000ft. Is that what evidence has proven? Or is that his "Faith" in his ability to go higher. His "Faith" in himself that allows him to push higher. His body may have proven he could do so to a point, but it is his "Faith" in his abilitiy to do more, which he has no evidence of at the point. That allows him to continue.
---
"There is no such thing as "scientific proof". The word "proof" should be discarded from any discussion of faith or of science. The word should be restricted to discussions of alcohol purity and maths. That's the only place where such a word has any true meaning."
-Another topic for another day. LOL LOL
---
As for your assertion that we have "faith" that the sun will rise; what we actually have is trust built on evidence. Have you ever known of a time when the Earth failed to rotate to align your position on the planet with the sun? If you went to bed in the belief that this wouldn't happen, and with no scientific backing for the belief, that would be faith because there is no rational reason to hold such a belief. But to appeal to evidence which has always supported a given assertion is the opposite of faith.
You're attempting to interchange the words "faith" and "trust". Trust is built upon evidence. Faith is held without evidence. They're not at all the same thing.
---
"Re: "How many times have people just died in thier sleep? Brain anerisms (pardon my spelling.) Have killed people out of nowhere."
Do you go to bed in the belief that such things couldn't possibly happen to you? It seems that in your recognition that such things do occur, you're demonstrating a recognition that they can and could. It's all based in the evidence. "
- Yes but I still go to bed with the "Faith" or I guess in your vocabulary "Belief" it wont happen to me. Just as you do.
"-Evidence 1: Every day of your life, you've woken from slumber."
- LOL LOL LOL Not exactly. I have been known to miss acouple od days through pure hybernation. LOL LOL LOL
"-Evidence 2: Some people have gone to sleep and died without waking."
-LOL Very true. LOL
---
"So where does the faith part come in?
Every day of your life, you've opened your eyes from slumber. That's very strong evidence suggesting a great likelihood that it will happen again tomorrow. But it's not conclusive evidence because sometimes people go to sleep and die without waking. So we have EVIDENCE that people don't always wake from slumber. Either way, it's based on evidence, not on faith. "
- I love this word "likelihood." LOL Its the same word Doctors and Lawyers use when they can't give a straight honest answer based of scientific fact. The word most used to describe what they "feel" will happen. Scientists use it often aswell, when they hope for one positive outcome but realize another is just as "likely" to happen. LOL LOL LOL
-----
"If you went to bed holding the strong belief that you would wake up a frog, that would be a belief of faith because there is no evidence to support the belief. The examples you keep offering are examples of evidence-based belief, not faith-based belief."
-I'm sorry that is just funny. I can't talk about this one. LOL LOL LOL LOL I would so like to wake up a frog. LOL LOL LOL LOL
---
"My belief that I'm right has nothing to do with any kind of faith. I'm right based on reason, evidence and logic, not based on faith. That's why I can offer more than an assertion and can demonstrate that I'm right. I keep showing you where the evidence lies behind beliefs you claim are held on faith. That's a demonstration, not just an assertion. Beliefs of faith can offer nothing more than assertion because they're not based in evidence. To offer more requires evidence. And when a belief is based on evidence, it's not based in faith."
-LOL this statement I actually like. Or atleast the last part. There is belief based on evidence, and there is belief based on faith. To say one is better or more right than the other is a little more pompus than any human can out right claim. LOL LOL LOL LOL
---
{Re: "That you will convinve the world and everyone hear that infactic proof is all that exists in the world."
You're not listening. I've not used the word "proof". I never do for such discussions because, outside of alcohol and math, it's a meaningless word.}
-I never said you used the word "Proof". Or I never quoted you as using the word "Proof" And as above. Another topic for another day. LOL LOL
---
"I keep showing you the evidence employed in what you claim are beliefs of faith. The evidence itself shows that these are evidence-based, not faith-based. You can keep producing examples all day long and suggesting that they're examples of faith. But as long as I can keep demonstrating the evidence behind those beliefs, I'm demonstrating that I'm correct, and not believing so out of faith. So far, you've presented not a single faith-based belief in all of your supposed examples. That again serves as evidence that I'm correct."
- I never said anything was solely faith based. But you seem to "believe" that only evidence is what makes the world turn round. Makes me wonder what evidence there is for the "big bang" and all of creation. Evidence today can not show evidence of what happens a million years ago, yet here we sit with many with belief of things that they can not show concrete evidence of happening. Yet science is the law of all I suppose. LOL LOL
----
{Re: "Yet with out faith in more, what would be the point of continuing your existance. To just wake and move untill the clock winds down and you return to the cycle of food you came from.
And what is wrong with that? It's what all of the evidence shows to be the case. There is nothing to suggest otherwise. So if one convinces themselves (through faith, since there is nothing else to suggest an alternate conclusion), that they are somehow more important than they really are, it changes nothing about reality. It only serves to disconnect their conscious processes from a recognition of reality -- delusion.
Believing that you're more structurally substantial than a locomotive doesn't make you impervious to the effects of being struck by a train. It simply makes you delusional concerning the outcome of such a collision.}
- LOL LOL Very true indeed. But "Faith" that we live for something more is what keeps many alive. So the question becomes, "What do you live for?" If you are just waiting to return to the food chain. "Why continue?" "Why not just rejoin it now?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{Re: "LOL. Yeah I am."
Then kindly pay me the courtesy of demonstrating some of this supposed intelligence. Because in every single example so far, you've been demonstrated to be wrong. And constantly presenting examples of evidence-based belief and claiming their faith-based only demonstrates an inability to understand the difference. It doesn't demonstrate the intelligence you claim.}
Directed at wrong person. LOL LOL You have been arguing with me. LOL Not him. LOL LOL
Beastt17
let me blunt child
i gave my opion, do not challange me , i am adding my bites to the conversation, adding a diffrent point as he is,
why dont you stop repeating your self and insulting people so you can feel smarter, thats not the point of this forum
cryingmoon,
You're the only one here slinging insults. The rest of us are having a conversation, some with demonstrable truths and some with false-hoods, but only you are slinging insults. And I, for one, wish you'd stop.
Now if you have something with which to support your blind assertions, I'd be most anxious to have a look. If not, then we've seen your opinion, offered solid refutation, and you're done. So until you have something to offer, please be done.
{Re: "As we had discussed earlier in the thread. Extremes should not be tolerated. These would be examples of extremes."
As was pointed out (and apparently ignored), the word "extreme" is a relative word. It relates to a point of moderation. And the only such point of moderation regarding beliefs of faith is the same as for arsenic, murder, cyanide and animal cruelty. Zero is the proper moderate amount, and only zero can be shown to be without harm.}
-Happy you through the whole "animal cruelty" in there. LOL LOL After all how many centuries did science use animals to test thier theories on beofre someone determined it was cruel and extreme? LOL LOL
---
Re: "Science is not without its extremes aswell. "
Please feel free to raise your side of the discussion above the point of mere blind assertion. Show us some examples of the extremes of science. Science studies and attempts to understand reality. So unless you think reality itself is extreme, (which would be somewhat ridiculous), then what examples of the extremes of science can you present?
-Would not the development of Biological Weapons be concidered extreme? Would not the creation of Weapons that can destroy entire planets be concidered extreme? Testing on unborn babies. Is that extreme? Or is all good in the name of science? Is that what the new line should be. "All is fair in love, war, and Science." LOL LOL LOL
---
{Re: "Just because a few take things to an extreme, does not mean that everyone with such a belief are without logic and restraint."
But we're not talking about a few things. We're talking about beliefs of faith. And there are things to be noted for beliefs of faith. All can be demonstrated to lead to intolerance, killing, persecution and murder. None can be demonstrated to lead to truth.}
-Hmmm...Interesting point. Yes there are those of all "Faiths" who are so stone cold as to believe it is better than others. That only thiers is the right one. But this is not all. If faith is anything it is fluid. It opens ones mind to possibilities of understanding. "Faiths" mingle and grow and expand. This can be shown in the greek and roman mythologies where they accepted and adopted different gods and goddesses from the cultures they encountered. The same can be said even now about different faiths. It is the hard line that one is right above all others that breeds this hate and intolerance. Even in science.
---
{Beliefs of faith are harmful. They degrade one's ability to apply reason and logic, because they cannot be held on reason or logic. If one believes that one belief of faith can be true, then there is nothing to stop them from believing that another belief of faith can be true. And there is simply no basis for any claim that any belief of faith is ever true.}
-You are right. To a point. One can not claim that one faith is more true than any of the others. But that does not make it harmful. It only means that one can not judge the world by what they believe alone. When one understands this then one can open and explore the different realms and faccets of the world and "reality."
Ugh, I got tired of reading the posts from cryingmoon and OniKumo. You're both wrong. Faith is exclusively a belief in something devoid of evidence, and every time you post another argument wrongly using the word, you look even more ignorant.
By the way, using LOL repeatedly makes you look less and less like an intelligent adult and more and more like a foolish child. You're attempting to ridicule someone of obviously superior intelligence with childish taunts and insults. It's failing miserably.
Beast is stating many of the same arguments over and over again because YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE HARD FACT, and continue to post the same WRONG assertions. Faith in yourself is a gross misuse of the word in almost every situation.
And finally, because I'm not even going to bother with your most recent arguments (that I already know to be wrong), science is not based on faith, but on curiosity. No scientist (excluding Christian Scientists, who should be shot) believes something unless he/she can back it up and at least prove its likelihood with COLD HARD OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE.
Faith in immortal vampires may not be inherently dangerous in itself, but faith in general is dangerous regardless of the situation. Please, if you intend on debating, post something of academic merit, and not foolish assertions with no factual grounding.
La6Muerte66
i am having more fun debating something , thats the point here, if i want your negative opion i will pull your lips from my boot, and ask you to speak to me, i am trying to get a wide range , rather then pick a side
on this discussion, i think every one has some vaild points, even if i do not agree with the person they are vaild, and have at leaste made a good atempt
http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm
i looked at that page you sugested a very good read, i dont agree with it all but i do thank you for sharing it
Correction: Faith is firm belief in something for which there is no proof - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
To firmly believe in something for which there is no proof, or more accurately, no evidence, is not and never has been a tenet of true science. Quantum physicists don't blindly guess on something and then test to see if it's real. They test and postulate based on existing observations. String theory (yes, I brought it up again for the other side of the argument) arose because it made sense mathematically, and it accurately described the confusing properties of subatomic particles while unifying general relativity with quantum mechanics. No one blindly guessed that at the most fundamental level, everything consists of 1-dimensional (or more) strings. Were that the case, and there was no mathematical evidence, and someone still firmly believed in it, THEN it would be faith, and would be utterly ridiculous.
i dont care if i win or loose , thats not the point.
if you have that mind set in a debat you can not gain anything from it, or learn anything from it
First, Kyriele, thank you for posting in an inquisitive manner rather than one of pure arrogant assertion.
Re: "I am uncertain as to why faith (a belief in that not proven to be fact) and science have to be mutually exclusive?"
My first answer to your question is that nothing should ever been considered "fact". There are things we can demonstrate to be true such as the affect of gravity. But even hundreds of years after Newton first outlined the effects of gravity, what it was remained misunderstood. Eventually, Einstein showed it to be a consequence, more than a force. And this is the fundamental foundation of science -- to recognize that what we think we know is based on evidence, and that new evidence may always be found and new conclusions drawn. So the true scientist will attempt to refrain from utilizing the word "fact", unless attempting to speak to pure laymen at their level.
But faith isn't simply that which has not been "proven" (another dangerous word), to be "fact". Faith is belief despite the lack of evidence or even in disregard of refuting evidence.
Science adheres directly to evidence. If you have no evidence, you can't perform science. So assertions devoid of evidence leave no avenue for study. And if you can't study an assertion, then you can't confirm it. Confirmation requires evidence. So before holding any belief, one should have evidence that there is substance to the belief. When people hold a belief but hold no evidence, that belief is based only in faith.
---
Re: "To the point where sailors boarded ships on nothing more than 'faith'."
But this isn't the case. When sailors boarded ships and headed to the horizon, they already had the evidence present through the observation of the horizon (it curves), of the arrangement of the stars and of the curvature of Earth's shadow on the moon.
So they debarked on evidence, not on faith.
---
Re: "This faith was justified."
I think it's fair to say that anything which is justified, isn't faith. Things are only justified through evidence. If you have evidence, then you have an evidence-based belief, not a faith.
---
Re: "Men of science found the invisible to be real when they located, manipulated, viewed and split atoms and other microscopic particles. The faith that mold on bread could be used to treat bacterial infections."
Evidence isn't limited to the visible. Wind isn't visible, yet you'll not find a credible scientist who disbelieves in wind. Wind is confirmed on the evidence for wind -- the things it does. The idea of atoms was formed on evidence.
Alexander Fleming didn't discover Penicillium on faith. His original observation was as the result of a contaminant in his petri dish which provided a halo devoid of bacterial development around the contaminating agent. The contaminant turned out to be mold.
---
Re: "Perhaps if science and spirituality did not consider themselves exclusive, more advances could be made in both arenas."
Before you can confirm any proposition, you must have something to study. When paranormal investigators seek objective evidence (the something which study requires), they consistently come up empty. It's no different than if you swore there was a mouse in your microwave, yet continual examination failed to produce even a single mouse hair. There isn't anything to study. And this is the same thing we find with other proposed ideas such as unicorns, Leprechauns, gremlins, mermaids and zombies. In each of those examples, the conclusion is that they don't exist. But people who devoutly hold to beliefs of faith simply won't accept any conclusion except for the one they proclaim to be true. They've closed their minds to all other possibilities. So when science concludes there is nothing to study, they attempt to attack science, simply for not agreeing with their unfounded conclusions.
---
Re: "Ignorance and faith do not hold hands any tighter than academia and ignorance. "
I whole-heartedly disagree. Academia insists that information be available. One can believe in any imagined concept with very little information. But to demonstrate any concept to hold true to claims requires that one not ignore the evidence. Only in holding to faith, is ignorance of the need for evidence, promoted.
---
Re: "To close one's mind off to facts or possibilities creates a stagnance in the human condition...or vampiric...whatever your place may be"
Now turn that around. Who is more close-minded than those who won't accept a concept to be false, simply because they want to believe it's true, despite offering absolutely nothing of value to support their belief?
The faithful are the most close-minded of all. Even when their beliefs are demonstrated to be false, they refuse to accept it.
cryingmoon,
Again, entirely untrue. The entire purpose of debate is usually not victory for one side or the other, but to bounce ideas off of each other. The issue I have with this debate is that it is entirely one-sided. We would be learning from both sides if both sides had academic merit. Beast has been putting forth evidence, sources, and infallible reasoning, as (I must admit) he always does. Your 'side', on the other hand, would only be providing a benefit if it were based in just as much sound reasoning and fact.
i was not trying to imply that you put your faith in it, but some do,
thats why i asked if you did not have theroy or science to back it up , where would you go from there? i only ask because i am instreated in knowing
If there is no theory or science to back up any belief, it should probably be abandoned, because it is probably wrong.
This is the basis of your side.
{Faith is harmful.}
{We're talking about beliefs of faith. And there are things to be noted for beliefs of faith. All can be demonstrated to lead to intolerance, killing, persecution and murder. None can be demonstrated to lead to truth.
Beliefs of faith are harmful. They degrade one's ability to apply reason and logic, because they cannot be held on reason or logic. If one believes that one belief of faith can be true, then there is nothing to stop them from believing that another belief of faith can be true. And there is simply no basis for any claim that any belief of faith is ever true.}
-According to your side Mother Tereasa and the Dali Lama were both Harmful, Intolerant, and did nothing to furthur Truth or Understanding. Faith in anything is Evil even Logic. >;]
there is nothing wrong with believing in what you feel is right but that doesnt mean people, as beastt17 mentioned, can mix reality. you can believe that vampires are real, but you can not go around biting people or risking peoples life (not saying that you would) you can believe in their exsistance and live a lifestyle close to theirs without going to overboard with what you are doing.
Well, no. If you believe in the existence of vampires (of course when I say it I mean the immortal/hollywood variety; Beast means all of them) despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever, it is detrimental to your intellectual development. There's a difference between playful fantasy and belief in something that isn't real. One is healthy, one is harmful. You decide which is which (hint hint: the first one in healthy).
Dammit, *is healthy.
Oh, and if you believe something in your heart and there is no evidence to support it, you should probably get a psych evaluation.
Faith.. Is one thing, wanting people to accept that there is physical evidence to present in relation to that established belief, that is another thing entirely, giving the fact that more evidence of forgery, and fabrications exist then Samples that are offered for scrutiny, keep in mind it is not just the Non-believer skeptic that wants to validate any evidence, it is also the questing for representative tangent proof for their belief.
or as we learn in school, validate, validate, validate, cite, cite ,cite.
I would love to be able to say something and it be true, no matter how far fetched it is, but, im not a "deity" so.. its kinda hard.
Hope you get my drift ; )
To get such a status you first need devoted clergy, ones that live off of your granting (through concession) favor.
Haha, then the plan unfolds, i got 5 usd who wants to sell their soul first?
but yea, like i said, and in different words, fool be a fool that speaks endlessly and says nothing at all.
; )
La6Muerte66 said:
if you believe something in your heart and there is no evidence to support it, you should probably get a psych evaluation.
How do you reconcile this statement with your belief in neo-paganism, shamanism and animism?
In the words of a well-known cartoon character "raahrooh"
Setting a logical mindset on something like this is very hard for an eclectic to do, seeing how, from my understanding, it is a belief that "to each their own." kinda thing.
That and the Presents of factions, and sects that disavow, or adopt other better established faiths.
I am thinking an "Agree to Disagree" would be the better conclusion of this little act.
Would it have been better for the church and Galileo to "agree to disagree"? Or is it better to recognize truths, even if you don't like them?
Had the "agree to disagree" evasion been the result of other conclusions of evidence, we'd probably have half the populace still believing that the sun orbited the Earth, that the Earth is flat, that spirits cause disease and that evolution is a false-hood. (Unfortunately, about half of the U.S. population actually does believe that evolution is an untrue conclusion. But eventually, they'll come to accept it just as they did heliocentrism and the fallacy of the flood.)
Agreeing to disagree is, unfortunately, a cop-out intended as diplomacy. It's simply inappropriate to set truth aside in favor of catering to those who wish to assert their position devoid of support. If one side of any issue is fully supportable and the other without support, the issue is already decided. The only thing left to do is allow those without support to demonstrate to themselves that their ideas are unsupportable, by allowing them to try.
Haha. I hesitate to call it faith, for not only are they malleable and constantly changing based on my own experience, but was there no evidence to me I wouldn't hold any spiritual beliefs whatsoever. And I've had a psych evaluation (not for my beliefs, but they weren't left out, lol). The only disorder I have is autism. Not exactly related to the discussion.
I still feel that ungrounded beliefs are dangerous to your mental health. While I feel they should be abandoned, I know why it's hard for a lot of people to do so. However, no one has evidence for the existence of immortal vampires (the original topic of this thread), much like, as Richard Dawkins so aptly put it, no one has evidence that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. There is no reason for anyone to believe blindly in either.
{Would it have been better for the church and Galileo to "agree to disagree"? Or is it better to recognize truths, even if you don't like them?}
-Lets talk about truths and evidence. Science has yet to show evidence on how the univers and all of life has come to be. Yes wonderful theories. "Bang" And it all began. But no Solid evidence. No recreating the creation of a sun and planet in a lab. Sorry, No Solid Evidence. Just a Belief.
---
{Had the "agree to disagree" evasion been the result of other conclusions of evidence, we'd probably have half the populace still believing that the sun orbited the Earth, that the Earth is flat, that spirits cause disease and that evolution is a false-hood. (Unfortunately, about half of the U.S. population actually does believe that evolution is an untrue conclusion. But eventually, they'll come to accept it just as they did heliocentrism and the fallacy of the flood.)}
-Were I a Christian. This argument might mean something to me. But it doesn't. LOL Try attacking something I care about. And as for evolution. I agree with it on this aspect. Yes man Decended from apes. We keep Deceding from simple natural lives to a world that is killing itself with its own gluttony and pervers greed. (Money, knowladge, ect, ect, ect.) So you can Decend down the evolutionary ladder all you like. >;]
ThothLestat : Who said I gave up. LOL I was merely bored and wanted a nap while they rebutaled. LOL
ThothLestat,
Galileo's case is most certainly interesting, as is Bruno's. Both were Christians and both remained Christians, even as they were imprisoned (and burned, in Bruno's case), by the church.
But here's the point you're trying to skirt around; Galileo, Bruno and Kepler were utilizing evidence when they came upon the discoveries which have been confirmed to be true. They used faith when they adhered to the very beliefs of those who persecuted them, which in over 2,000 years, have never been shown to be anything but untrue.
Einstein's case again shows the importance of evidence and the failure of faith. And before we discuss this too intently, it should be noted that Einstein's "religion" was so far removed from most faith-beliefs today, that it's not really appropriate to call it "religion".
I see the quote you have misapplied all of the time when people are attempting to defend their faith-based beliefs. But all it indicates is an extreme misunderstanding concerning Einstein's beliefs. This quote cuts much more to the core of his beliefs and should be taken as his direct attempt to correct misconceptions such as the one you and so many other religious people seem to hold;
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein (Albert Einstein: The Human Side)
I ask that you pay special attention to the second sentence within that quote; "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Now try to apply any faith-belief to the phrase "so far as our science can reveal it".
Now to look at Einstein's greatest work, and his greatest failures. Einstein was a truly brilliant man and no attempt should ever be made to take that away from him. But he was a man and was not without his failures. And as we look to his success and his failure, a distinct pattern emerges.
His greatest year was 1905 when he produced his Theory of Relativity. This is the work he is heralded for above all others. In his own estimation, his greatest blunder was his original cosmological constant. This was an equation he applied to his work in order to alter his findings that the universe was expanding. It was commonly accepted that the universe was stable. So Einstein disregarded the findings based purely on the evidence and attempted to apply his cosmological constant to make his evidence-based findings fit with standard thought of the day.
He failed again when he ignored quantum physics and his reason for doing so is that he felt it wasn't the way God would have created the universe. This is where he offered his famous quotation, "God does not play dice with the universe".
Einstein felt that God would not make the universe to operate in a manner so difficult to pin down as to accomodate quantum mechanics or in particular, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was with this in mind that Einstein drafted his final theory -- The Theory of Everything. And it was this theory that won him dismissal and ridicule from the physics world. In attempting to adhere to his faith-based beliefs, he even violated his own Theory of Relativity.
When Einstein stuck to the evidence, his findings changed history and lead science in new directions. When he allowed himself to be lead by mere faith, the result was utter failure.
He provides another example with his calculations concerning gravity and the resutling conclusion of black holes. The evidence clearly suggested that black holes should exist. But Einstein allowed himself the faith that they did not actually exist. He considered them "too weird", and offered that there would likely be found some limitation which would prevent them from actually existing. He was wrong.
As for Thomas Jefferson, he was indeed another brilliant man. But as a Christian, perhaps you should look more deeply into his core beliefs.
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."" -- Thomas Jefferson
"It is an insult to our citizens to question whether they are rational beings or not, and blasphemy against religion to suppose it cannot stand the test of truth and reason." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone." -- Thomas Jefferson
"I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." -- Thomas Jefferson
"My aim in that was, to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers, which have exposed him to the inference of being an impostor. For if we could believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind, that he was an impostor. I give no credit to their falsifications of his actions and doctrines, and to rescue his character, the postulate in my letter asked only what is granted in reading every other historian.... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore." -- Thomas Jefferson
Yes, at times Einstein was very close-minded and that's the reason he died as a failure and an out-dated old fool in the minds of the physicists of the day. When he allowed himself to fall to the folly of faith, the result was continually failure. When he allowed himself to think outside of the box and follow the evidence, even to seemingly ridiculous conclusions, he was brilliant.
Kepler makes for another great example. He was born to a Lutheran family yet he delighted in the findings of Copernicus. Copernicus had intentionally not published his findings until the extreme latter years of his life for fear of the church. In fact, it was Kepler who wrote the first outspoken defense of the Copernican system. And while he remained a member of the Lutheran church, he would not adhere to the Lutheran position on the real presence (the Sacramental Union), and was therefore, excluded from the sacrament in the Lutheran church. He also refused to convert to Catholocism which left him without refuge during the Thirty-Years War.
His science lead him to great discoveries but the faith-beliefs of his time ended up threatening even his mother's life as she was charged with being a witch. Had he not been so adept at applying logic, perhaps his defense of her would not have resulted in her acquittal.
He was continually forced to relocate during his life due to religious persecution and civil unrest. But when he adhered to the evidence, his findings were the very successes for which he is known today.
This is perhaps most strenuously obvious in his attraction to Copernican Astronomy which was (and still is), directly contrary to his faith-based beliefs. This is where he starts with faith, but finds he must adhere to evidence and then attempts to justify one against the other in his conviction that God had created the world according to an intelligible plan that is accessible through the natural light of reason.
Again, we find one marked as religious bowing to the need to comply with reason, not faith.
Galileo is now heralded as the "Father of Science" and his evidence-based findings were his greatest success. His faith-based beliefs lead to him dying under house-arrest as a criminal and a humiliated heretic.
Bruno was an Italian Christian monk when he began to adhere to the evidence and suggested that other stars would also be found to have planets around them and many with life. It took nearly 400-years for his idea about planets to be confirmed but he was right. Unfortunately for him, those who held faith-based beliefs as being superior to evidence, took upon themselves the task of burning him alive, at the stake and his evidence-based work along with him.
Einstein was brilliant when he adhered to the evidence and a failure when he adhered to faith.
Kepler achieved that which is still recognized as nearly impossible given the equipment of his day. And this he achieved by adhering to the evidence, even when it violated the faith-based beliefs of his church.
Newton was a religious zealot but also recognized the failure of the faith of his church. He was forced to keep these beliefs hidden, revealing them only in his writings where he offered that the Trinity was a blasphemy against God. But when he adhered to the evidence, he conceived of ideas which couldn't even be described through the mathematics of his day. So with the help of a brilliant friend, they devised calculus so that his ideas could be expressed.
Darwin too was a Christian. But his faith-based beliefs never lead him to any notoriety or confirmed conclusions. It was only when he violated his faith-beliefs that he found a path to new discovery and a better understanding of reality.
In every example, faith-based beliefs lead to failure and stagnation while evidence-based beliefs lead to new discovery, confirmation and a greater understanding of reality.
I believe in vampires as people --- to have faith in them as real beings -- I don't .
Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea so if someone believes in vampires as a religion it is basically a belief of an idea.
If you can believe that one can get aids from having sex with someone then who is to say vampires don't exist?
If you can believe you are gay and it is a gene thing then again who are we to judge about vampires?
If we can believe you are male or female then you can see the idea of a vampire.
I am not a person of vision for a vampire religion. Surely there is more to life then this but heck if the world can believe is all kinds of stuff why not have an open mind and be the beautiful mess we all are?
I like the idea of vampires living off the life force and learning and growing.
It is an idea so as people who or what is your idea?
Do you express it to be well liked or do you do things to make people think? Most people are afraid to be led by their heart. So what does your faith believe in?
I believe in gods, I believe in people of all kinds and religions of all kinds. I am unique as we all are so those are my rantings of a person looking in from another view..
Ok. Lets stay with "Big Bang Daddy".
Let walk through it from the begining then.
The catalyst.
LOL Yes. A question. A polite walk through of the "Big Bang theory" from the begining. From the origin of the catalyst.
Your question causes me to wonder if you fully understand what the word "catalyst" means. Are you asking what started the rapid expansion from a singularity?
Before that. The origins of the singularity. The origins of the elements involved. From the begining. Every circle has a begining. Lets start there.
I'm running a bit short on time today but I haven't received an answer yet so I'll give you a quick over-view. There is more than one current theory which might explain the Big Bang. The one I find the most plausible doesn't have any beginning. It's cyclic. It works rather like a star. A cloud of gas (mostly hydrogen), is drawn into a star by gravity. As the gravitational effect reaches a critical state, fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms begins. This process provides an outward force to equal the inward effect of gravity. Eventually the hydrogen is mostly converted to helium and the outward force begins to decline. Gravity then causes the star to collapse into a point of such density that it rebounds and explodes into a super-nova. As the cloud expands it also cools and eventually, gravity will begin to pull the matter from which the star was formed back together.
The cyclic view of the Big Bang is similar but not exactly like the above view of a star. You can begin the explanation at any point, where it be the singularity, the expansion or a contraction. If we begin with the singularity, it rebounds just as does the star, leading to a rapid expansion. The expansion produces cooling and the cooling leads to the formation of hydrogen along with a small amount of helium. Gravity causes the hydrogen to clump together until stars are formed. Then we work through the whole star cycle which accounts for the naturally occurring elements. But eventually, the effect of gravity slows the expansion of the universe and reverses the process until all of the matter in the universe is again contained in a singularity, which rebounds again.
Another view which is elevated in probability by the observation that the expansion of the universe is still accelerating is the "Big Rip" or "Big Crunch". Both postulate that, based on evidence, the universe will reach a state at which space-time can expand no farther. The result is a tearing of space-time itself, leading to the collapse of the universe. But keep in mind that "collapse" doesn't equate to "non-existence". The base components (perhaps strings), of the universe will still exist and properties of interaction will still exist. These properties of interaction will dictate the transformation the substance of the universe will then undergo.
The universe may have formed, collapsed, transformed and reformed billions of times. There are simply things we don't yet know. But just as Newton didn't understand the mechanism of gravity (and there are still questions about it today), gravity does indeed exist and reacts as Newton predicted. And his predictions concerning gravity were all based in evidence, not in his faith.
The question was on the origins of the elements involved. Like the hydrogen element in your star. What created them?
All cycles have a begining. No end. But always a begining. Like drawing a circle. You put pen to paper. There is the begining. The elements involved are known. We know where they come from. You then begin the circle and continue it through the begining starting the cycle all over again. Just because you pick the pen up after continuing the circle through the starting point, does not erase that point.
So where is the starting point? We know what happened once the cycle started. But where does the elements involved come from? What are the origins of those elements? Atoms don't just appear from nothingness. Or did they?
Yes the Universe may be one big bang cycle that continues and continues. Imploding and exploding, Ripping and mending. But all begins somewhere from something.
Actually, you have no reason to believe that aside from your willingness to do so. Cycles don't necessarily have a beginning. It's most probable that all of the matter in the universe, in whatever form, has always been here, and always will be. If the cycle did indeed have a beginning what, pray tell, was before it? Nothing?
That is the question science will probably never be able to answer.
But what faith allows one to know without the need for explaination.
It isn't faith itself that holds back truth. Its the orginization of that faith into a religion. Where one tries to put boundries on what one can and can not have faith in. That is what blocks the exploration of truth.
My faith allows me to believe that there was a begining. That all flows from a scource. What that scource is, where it comes from. These do not concern me. I know where I am going and to where I am going to return. That is the truth of the matter. My faith doesn't keep me from understanding the mysteries of reality. It allows me to accept that I don't need to have them explained to me for them to continue to keep happening.
But faith does nothing but post an answer with no reasoning behind it. Similar to what I said elsewhere, I could say that all the matter in the universe came from giant wishing trolls that currently live in the hills of Vermont. My claim of knowledge is no more substantiated than yours, and is therefore no more (or less) absurd. You can believe what you want about your creation or afterlife, but don't claim to me that it is fact of any sort unless you have evidence.
This...THIS is why I don't tell people what I believe. You put forth your beliefs as if they can hold substance in debate. They're wholly irrelevant. The ability of ANY faith to tell you what the beginning and end are do not make them any truer.
They say that the wisest of us all constantly become crazed. One shouldn't wonder why, when pondering things so theoretical, you will not, and can not make logic out of the abstract. Stop trying.
I for one believe that everyone is entitled to his/her own set of beliefs . I for one see nothing wrong with believing in the exsitancne of vampires wether it be the story immortal ones or the more believable ones that live and die like normal people and just feed on blood .
I'm not even arguing what I believe, as it's generally contradictory to my position in this debate. I'm not arguing that you're wrong because of what you think the "source" is, but for the purposes of this debate, the fact that you believe in a source when no evidence exists for it is unhealthy.
Yes, I'm arguing a point I don't agree with. Try and discredit what I put forth anyway. The facts still back me up.
{I'm not even arguing what I believe, as it's generally contradictory to my position in this debate. I'm not arguing that you're wrong because of what you think the "source" is, but for the purposes of this debate, the fact that you believe in a source when no evidence exists for it is unhealthy.}
Really? Explain how. My doctor seems to think I am as healthy as the next. And I seem to have to correct the engineers at my job more than not.
{Yes, I'm arguing a point I don't agree with. Try and discredit what I put forth anyway. The facts still back me up.}
LOL As someone said earlier. Just because evidence has not been found yet does not mean that it does not exist.
Reminds me of a saying I once read somewhere.
"A unicorn cares as much that you believe it is real, as you care that it believes you are real." >;]