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lavisbre
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02:50:21 Nov 01 2008
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Please this is not an attack on anyone’s religion
I must say I find the denial of the vampire on a Vampire site odd … still .. moving on

People believe in gods, faith n so forth…. None can be proven and lack evidence which is why they are called belifes, you just know and need no proof as there is none.
I can show endless reports of vampire accounts around the world, graves of staked victims, photos and documented attacks from past to present….

What is wrong with having faith that vampires do exist?



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Rastaferal
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03:09:12 Nov 01 2008
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Nothing is wrong with it...people should be, and are, free to believe whatever they want no matter how ridiculous it may seem to others. For example, I dont believe in Cleveland...no place can be as dull as it is described as being.

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass"



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La6Muerte66
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03:15:21 Nov 01 2008
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Beause, as Pat Condell so aptly put it, faith, aka the belief in something for which there is no evidence (in this case, there appears to be some anecdotal evidence, but only so) is dangerous to your mental health. I don't want to become engaged in a religious debate, but if something is physically impossible, I find no reason to respect someone's faith in it. Someone claims there was a vampire attack. They took pictures and desecrated a corpse because they believed a corpse was attacking people during the night. Even this is more believable than the more modern storybook nonsense, and it's STILL IMPOSSIBLE. Unless someone can provide a physical link from a metaphysical occurrence, I might give a second thought to the idea, but so far, no one's provided a rational explanation as to why it would be possible for an immortal vampire to exist.

Blind faith is dangerous, people. Millions upon millions have been murdered for blind faith. Hitler, the crusades, the inquisition, etc.



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Foreverseeking2
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04:51:33 Nov 01 2008
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Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs , whether or not they are shared by they masses, still not all can agree . What I don't like is when others put you down for your beliefs. It is not a bad thing to believe what is in your heart.



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Beastt17
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04:52:31 Nov 01 2008
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Beliefs of faith are devoid of evidence. Otherwise, they'd be beliefs of evidence. How many times have beliefs of faith turned out to be true?

I can't think of a single time. Reality leaves evidence... objective evidence.

Faith leaves victims.



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La6Muerte66
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04:59:48 Nov 01 2008
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This has got to be the only time I've ever agreed with Beast. On anything. Faith is dangerous. Belief in fact and repeated personal experience (and not so much the latter) are the only respectable beliefs. If a murderer believes in his/her (let's not get sexist here, lol) heart that it is right to kill someone for any reason, does that make it right, or better yet, respectable?



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Oceanne
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14:27:41 Nov 01 2008
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Im jumping in here too..Blind faith DOES leave victims and lead to discourse.
La6Muerte66,Beast? I agree 110%



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ThothLestat
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15:20:41 Nov 01 2008
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okay, I'll play devils advocate.

Faith is dangerous?? and specifically, you mean faith in Christianity, right?

I'll stack the bodies of the victims of atheism against ALL the 'victims of faith'. All of them.

The victims of atheism outnumber the victims of faith 1000 to 1. Inquisition, Puritans, Salem witch trials, and Jonestown vs. Pol Pot for example.

Next, you'll try to tell me that Hitler was a Christian -- he was not.

Sure, horrible things have been done in the name of religion. That doesn't mean that faith itself is inherently dangerous. Conversely, there are immeasurable numbers of good things done in the name of faith. Things of beauty have been created for its sake. Poems written. Songs sung. Lives saved. Chains broken. Etc.

Faith can be a powerful thing; it freed the slaves in America, brought down the Berlin Wall, and inspires people to free themselves from oppression the world over. Why? Because these aren't purely rational goals. By comparison, secular humanism fails to ignite the same level of passion. It can't. It never will.

If a few people find faith and comfort in dream-catchers, shamanism, bigfoot, vampires, chupacabras, unicorns, or whatever -- especially without any empirical evidence to support it -- I think it says more about our desire to believe in something bigger than ourselves.

it's not that i need to believe in Vampires, I just like to.



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La6Muerte66
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15:35:20 Nov 01 2008
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First off, Pol Pot and 'Communist' regimes cannot be attributed to atheism, as it cannot be proven (or even soundly supposed) that atheism was the motivation behind these tyrannical leaders.

I don't mean to make it seem like Christianity is all I'm attacking, it's just one of the two most blatant displays of faith-inspired atrocities.

Yes, Hitler was a Christian, and he felt he was doing the work of God by eradicating the Jews, as stated in Mein Kampf.

I don't remember where I saw this quote, but I feel it's applicable, "Without religion, there would still be evil people doing evil things and good people doing good things; it is only with religion that we can have good people doing evil things."

"Faith can be a powerful thing; it freed the slaves in America, brought down the Berlin Wall, and inspires people to free themselves from oppression the world over. Why? Because these aren't purely rational goals. By comparison, secular humanism fails to ignite the same level of passion. It can't. It never will."

And your evidence that faith is in any way responsible for ANY of these things is......? Yes, they ARE rational goals, and slavery of Africans was initiated because white Protestants believed they were superior to these godless savages. Same with Manifest Destiny. Don't tell me faith ended it the same way. Also, there is no way for you to rationally argue that faith can ignite any more passion than secular humanism. You mean to say that irrational belief in something makes us appreciate helping fellow human beings more? Last I checked, I didn't need to believe in an imaginary man in the sky to feel good about donating money to Haiti or helping fund the fight against AIDS. I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do.


Shit, and I'm not even an atheist!



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gealachlass
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16:41:04 Nov 01 2008
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I do not believe in the "Hollywood" vampire, its just to way out of there for me. The idea of one so powerful & magical is one I find fictional. Those of other ways less extreme could be real. Sorry but Hollywood has made the image just to pretty to believe.



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ThothLestat
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17:38:18 Nov 01 2008
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I didn't claim you were an atheist, La6Muerte66.
How you justify altruism is irrelevant. I see it as a sign of faith, even if you do not.

you claimed "Belief in fact(s) and repeated personal experience (and not so much the latter) are the only respectable beliefs. "

I'm just saying that it's not the "only" respectable belief.
Faith is respectable, for the reasons I listed.

You also agreed with this statement: "faith, aka the belief in something for which there is no evidence (in this case, there appears to be some anecdotal evidence, but only so) is dangerous to your mental health."

Which suggests that if we believe in something without any evidence, we're potentially delusional. This is something that Bill Maher says and I disagree with it.

re: slavery
The Abolitionist movement was started by the Quakers and evangelicals who considered slavery un-Christian. Christianity didn't invent slavery as you indicate, but it certainly took advantage of it for the reason you state. You are correct about that, but I don't believe it's fair to blame Christianity for this.

Separating communism from atheism is like separating a tiger from his stripes. There's a reason why communism and atheism are compatible with each other. The whole "religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind. If atheism isn't a motivational factor in genocide, with respect to Pol Pot, why did he target Buddhists and abolish their religion? Because faith poses as much a threat to his vision of national unity (communism) as capitalism does.

Again, I'm merely playing devil's advocate with regard to faith in general.

[back on track]
I don't see the harm in believing in vampire mythology, there's something romantic about immortality and vampire folklore. None of us would be on this site if we felt otherwise.



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Beastt17
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19:28:12 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "Faith is dangerous?? and specifically, you mean faith in Christianity, right?"

No, there's nothing special about Christianity here. It's simply one faith among the mix. All are dangerous and lead to victimization.
---

Re: "The victims of atheism outnumber the victims of faith 1000 to 1"

This is a very common misconception. There is a difference between someone being killed or victimized as a direct result of faith, and someone being killed by someone who was incidentally, an atheist. The ones that can be counted as "deaths attributable to atheism" are those where the specific reason for the death was atheism. You can't count the number of people murdered by killers with mustaches and claim them as victims of mustaches.
---

Re: "Next, you'll try to tell me that Hitler was a Christian -- he was not."

Not only was Hitler a Christian but he stated;
"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude." That's from a speech given at the Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926.

In Mein Kampf he wrote; "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work." It doesn't take an act of imagination to see the Christian tie-in with Hitler's hatred of the Jewish people.

In a Reichstag speech in 1938 he said, "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."

In 1941 he remarked to one of his generals, Gerhard Engle; "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

When Hitler narrowly and unwittingly escaped an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he gave credit to providence, proclaiming; "Now I am completely content, The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal."

This was echoed by Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich. Cardinal Michael Faulhaber even sent a telegram directing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape." Special congratulations were sent by the Pope himself.

It's easy to understand why Christianity might want to divorce itself from Hitler and his six-million murders in the name of Christianity. But no such separation exists.
---

Re: "That doesn't mean that faith itself is inherently dangerous."

Just about every con-game and fraud scheme ever perpetrated or imagined relies upon one thing -- the faith of the intended victim. One of the most common, relies upon the offering of "good faith" money. Without faith, such schemes would be useless to the perpetrator.

Faith didn't free the slaves. Faith delayed the freeing of the slaves since a faith document was used to proclaim that even God approved of slavery. The Bible outright prohibits the things God is said to dislike. But when it comes to slavery, it instead offers regulations regarding the duration of involuntary servitude, the degree to which a slave may be beaten and other specifics. And when it comes to duration, the basis is often gender and/or race. When it comes to beating a slave, as long as it takes him more than 2-days to die, the one administering the beating is said to have done nothing wrong in the eyes of God, because the slave was his "property". So you can add the slaves of early America to the list as more "victims of faith".

The Berlin wall was brought down by politics, not faith.

You've made the assertion that secularism can't ignite the same level of passion. And perhaps that's what makes it safer. The vast majority of murders in this country are crimes of passion. Emotion can be a wonderful thing but it's no basis for making important decisions. That's why in nearly every region of the U.S., there is a special classification for murder committed as an act of momentary, intense, passion. One should strive to be motivated by reason, not emotion.

And when it comes to reason, not only do we find it as the basis for every confirmable discovery as truth, but it also fires the intense motivation of scientific research. The LHC currently stands as the most complex and largest machine every constructed. It was built of the motivation of reason, not faith.

The bottom line remains this; those things which are true carry with them, objective evidence of truth. That which cannot be held on the merits of objective evidence is rationally, without cause to be seen as other than untrue. What requires faith to believe, holds all the same merits as those things we call "false". One can only believe in Leprechauns out of faith because there is no objective evidence upon which to hold such a belief. The same applies to mermaids and unicorns. That's why we call these things "false" or "myth". And yet they offer no less objective evidence than do other beliefs of faith. Only when one stands to gain (i.e. belief in immortality, pardisical eternity, eternal love, etc.), will they set aside reason in favor of faith. That's why gremlins, Leprechauns, mermaids, zombies and unicorns are held as myths, while spirits, ghosts, angels and gods are held as theology. In foundation, they are equal.

When you can show a single confirmed truth which was confirmed without objective evidence, then you can argue the point.


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FallenDreams
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19:48:06 Nov 01 2008
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There are some people that have trouble with having faith in things that they cannot see with their own eyes, those people are realists and are entitled to their own opinion.....I choose to not let it bother me much, there will be people that believe and then there will be people eho dont, or who criticize....If those people choose to attack those who believe then they should be ignored because it is simply showing how ignorant they are.



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Beastt17
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19:48:41 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "Faith is respectable, for the reasons I listed. "

No it isn't. Would you close your eyes and drive on faith? Would you buy a television or a house without ever seeing the product and with no warranty?

Faith is the discarding of reason, logic and evidence in favor of believing that which you believe only out of desire. It's like writing checks your bank account offers no evidence of being able to cover, and then saying that's a respectable thing to do.

You might have faith that you have millions of dollars in your bank account, but a reasonable and respectable thing to do is to check the actual numbers in your bank book and compare them to the bank's records and believe in that result, not the amount of money you might desire to have.

"Faith" is believing what you wish to believe, independent of reason, logic and evidence. Do you tell your children to operate on faith? If their teacher tells them they're failing their classes, do you tell them to just believe that they'll pass? If one of their friends offers them drugs and they want to be "one of the gang", do you tell them to just believe that the drugs can't hurt them? Those would be acts of faith.



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Cloudx9
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19:54:58 Nov 01 2008
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I feel that you can believe watever you wanna believe but you also should respect everyone else's religious points of view no matter how farfetched they seem to you.



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La6Muerte66
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19:57:15 Nov 01 2008
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"I didn't claim you were an atheist, La6Muerte66.

I didn't mean to make it seem like you did. I was just pointing out the absurdity that I was so vehemently defending atheism when I myself am a pagan. lol.



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Beastt17
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19:59:35 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "There are some people that have trouble with having faith in things that they cannot see with their own eyes"

I fear you may be missing the point. It's not that I can't believe in things I can't see. I believe in the wind, not because I can see the wind, but because I can see the effects of the wind -- direct, confirmable, measurable effects. In short; I can see the objective evidence which conclusively demonstrates the existence of the wind.

I believe in neutrinos, electrons, atoms, protons, quarks, distant galaxies, satellites, radio signals, UV light, IR light, gamma waves, and evolution. Yet I can't see any of those things. But I can see, and be shown, the objective evidence which demonstrates that those things are real. Were it not for the objective evidence, I would hold those things to be false.

And that's the same system utilized by most people for 98% of the beliefs they hold. People only hold out belief for ghosts, vampires, werewolves, gods, angels, spirits and other entities devoid of objective evidence, when it suits their desires to do so. But even these people will quickly demonstrate their recognition that faith is not a valid method upon which to assess validity of a concept. Ask someone to close their eyes, plug their ears and drive on faith and most will readily recognize the suggestion as both dangerous and absurd. They'll believe in non-existent entities on faith because the damage isn't immediate or, for most, terribly obvious. But when the damage is less tangible, many will operate on faith for those things which seem to offer only profit. It takes extracting one's self from faith to fully recognize the damage faith does.

In many ways, holding faith is much like living in a bad relationship. You never fully recognize how bad the relationship was -- how damaging it was -- until you're no longer living under its influence.


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Beastt17
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20:12:08 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "I feel that you can believe watever you wanna believe but you also should respect everyone else's religious points of view no matter how farfetched they seem to you."

That's a nice sentiment but it's something that simply doesn't seem possible for most people. Christians aren't happy to simply live by their own beliefs and allow everyone else the same right. Muslims are the same way. The same can be said of Hindus. In fact, the vast majority of people are quite happy to live by their own beliefs. Unfortunately, they want to force others to live by those beliefs as well.

I live in the U.S. and I can't even buy alcohol until 10:00 o'clock on Sunday morning. All other days of the week alcohol may be legally purchased at 6:00AM... but not on the Christian sabbath. There is a growing pulse in this country to prohibit marriages between same-sex couples which is also based wholly upon faith beliefs. Stem-cell research is being stifled, based upon the desire to thrust faith-based beliefs upon everyone, even if they don't hold those beliefs. And the problem is growing, not getting better.

History clearly demonstrates that this is a pattern which will arise as soon as any faith-based belief rises to encompass the vast majority of any populace. The only answer I can see is to try to bring people to a level of rationality and recognition of the true nature of faith-based beliefs -- they're simply untrue and markedly dangerous.

That which is a part of reality will leave it's specific and unique mark upon reality. We call these marks "objective evidence". When holding a belief which is devoid of objective evidence, one is holding a belief of faith. And beliefs of faith cannot be held out of reason. Avoidance of reason is neither respectable, rational or sound. The problem is getting people who have been fed the idea that faith is a good thing, to recognize that it's nothing of the sort. Faith is a bad thing -- the key to self-victimization -- and to victimization by others.


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Namir
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20:13:19 Nov 01 2008
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Hmmm...Faith. No there is nothing wrong with faith and belief in ceterain things as long as they are not taken to the extremes.

Yes "Faith" is a powerful belief. "Faith" and "Beliefs" have caused entire civilizations to grow and disapper into the dust.

We all have very common beliefs that we have faith in everyday. Deny what you will, But one has faith in thier abilities. One has faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. One has faith that when they close thier eyes at night that they will open in the morning. These are just examples of small faiths we never think about on a day to day basis.

But "Faith" also corrupts. "Faith" that drive us to hate and fear others. "Faith" that turns us against individuals with different "faiths" must be gaurded against. That kind of "faith" has caused entire nations to exterminate eachother over the stuipest things.

So "Faith" that Vampires exist is not wrong. But if that "Faith" drives you to actions that put others in harm, or drive you to attack others simply because of this "faith", is wrong.



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Cloudx9
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20:18:08 Nov 01 2008
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I agree with you 100% OniKumo.



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Beastt17
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20:18:15 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "I don't see the harm in believing in vampire mythology, there's something romantic about immortality and vampire folklore. None of us would be on this site if we felt otherwise."

"Believing in" = "holding to be true"

"Mythology" = that which is myth -- a popular idea, which is untrue.

So you're saying that you see no harm in holding something to be true, which is untrue?

Does that not serve witness to the danger of faith-beliefs? If one can hold one falsehood to be true, based only on faith, what's to stop them from holding another belief which is untrue, to be true, and to do so based only on faith?

In the end, one can hold anything to be true, no matter how untrue it is. If you've committed a murder, simply convince yourself that you didn't. If you're facing bankruptcy, simply convince yourself that you aren't. If you have a terminal disease, just convince yourself it will go away. Behold the harm in faith.


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Beastt17
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20:35:34 Nov 01 2008
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OniKumo,

Re: "No there is nothing wrong with faith and belief in ceterain things as long as they are not taken to the extremes."

Holding belief in that for which there is no supporting objective evidence is already an extreme. It's belief without cause to believe. If an air-traffic controller were to set a book over their radar screen and begin directing planes without the evidence needed to do so safely, wouldn't that already be a rather "extreme" thing to do?

It's important for people to understand that "extreme" is just one of today's buzz-words. It means nothing until one can establish a mid-point. People suggest that it's okay to eat anything, just as long as it's not taken to "extremes". But before one can determine what is extreme, they need to understand what is moderate. What is the moderate amount of arsenic for one's diet? What is the extreme?

The same holds true for faith-based beliefs as holds true for arsenic. Zero is the moderate amount. More than that is an extreme. And history shows over an over that faith-based beliefs will always lead to the torment and death of people. So it's always an extreme.
--

Re: "We all have very common beliefs that we have faith in everyday."

This is untrue.
---

Re: "one has faith in thier abilities."

No. One has evidence of their abilities. It's an evidence-based belief, not a faith-based one.

Now, if one were to engage in an attempt to conquer Everest without ever having any experience as a mountain climber, rock-climber, or with cold, high-altitude environments, the belief that they could conquer Everest would be faith-based. And it would kill them.
---

Re: "One has faith that the sun will rise tomorrow."

No, we have evidence that the sun will become visible on the morning horizon. We know of the relationship between the sun and the Earth. We have every day of our lives to stand as evidence that the morning sun will become visible on the horizon. None of that is based in faith.
---

Re: "One has faith that when they close thier eyes at night that they will open in the morning."

Again, this is not faith; this is belief based in evidence. Every night that you've closed your eyes and every morning that you've opened them has been additional evidence to support the belief. None of it is based in faith.

Such attempts to support faith as a positive are likely to be given by those who want to hold beliefs on faith, yet can't provide any examples of where faith is actually beneficial. And that is the majority of people. But when they attempt to provide examples, they always fail simply because such examples don't exist.



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Cloudx9
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20:45:05 Nov 01 2008
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I think that everyone should just respect others religious poits-of-views and just leave it at that.



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Namir
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20:50:47 Nov 01 2008
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"The same holds true for faith-based beliefs as holds true for arsenic. Zero is the moderate amount. More than that is an extreme."- So I guess you don't eat any apples. LOL LOL LOL

And "Faith" is what allows one to push what they have already proven they can do. To Continue to strive harder at the abilities you have. Yes a Rock Climber can prove he can climb on treachorous mountain. But it is his "Faith" in his abilities that allow him to climb higher. To go furthur. To say "I can do this."

And yes we have scientific proof that the sun rotates and reappears every day. But it is the "Faith" that something will not happen between the time you go to bed and the time you wake up that it will be there tomoorw. How many times have people just died in thier sleep? Brain anerisms (pardon my spelling.) Have killed people out of nowhere.

There are certain "Faiths" and "Beliefs" we have that we never think about. Like your "Faith" you are right. That you will convinve the world and everyone hear that infactic proof is all that exists in the world. Yet with out faith in more, what would be the point of continuing your existance. To just wake and move untill the clock winds down and you return to the cycle of food you came from.

Just a point of view. >;]



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Cloudx9
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21:04:18 Nov 01 2008
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yeah true just a point of view but a very wise one



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Namir
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21:15:56 Nov 01 2008
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LOL LOL Smarter than your average bear, eh BooBoo? LOL LOL >;]



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Cloudx9
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21:22:52 Nov 01 2008
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LOL. Yeah I am.



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Beastt17
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21:34:12 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "So I guess you don't eat any apples."

I don't eat the seeds.

But even if the "meat" of the apple contained arsenic, the point would be that arsenic isn't something you should consume at all; just as faith isn't anything to which you should subscribe at all.

Arsenic is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount.

Faith is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount.
---

Re: "And 'Faith' is what allows one to push what they have already proven they can do."

That's not true. If one has already proven an ability, then they base their belief in that ability on the evidence provided by the "proof" (really, really bad word, by the way), not on faith.
---

Re: "But it is his 'Faith' in his abilities that allow him to climb higher."

That's not faith because it's based in evidence -- the evidence he has demonstrated in the past, combined with the neural signals (more evidence), he's receiving when he has reached a point to which he has climbed in the past. Faith is belief devoid of objective evidence. You keep tossing out evidence, and then claiming it's faith. When one has evidence, they have zero need for faith. Faith is only employed to provide belief where evidence is absent.
---

Re: "And yes we have scientific proof that the sun rotates and reappears every day. But it is the 'Faith' that something will not happen between the time you go to bed and the time you wake up that it will be there tomoorw."

There is no such thing as "scientific proof". The word "proof" should be discarded from any discussion of faith or of science. The word should be restricted to discussions of alcohol purity and maths. That's the only place where such a word has any true meaning.

As for your assertion that we have "faith" that the sun will rise; what we actually have is trust built on evidence. Have you ever known of a time when the Earth failed to rotate to align your position on the planet with the sun? If you went to bed in the belief that this wouldn't happen, and with no scientific backing for the belief, that would be faith because there is no rational reason to hold such a belief. But to appeal to evidence which has always supported a given assertion is the opposite of faith.

You're attempting to interchange the words "faith" and "trust". Trust is built upon evidence. Faith is held without evidence. They're not at all the same thing.
---

Re: "How many times have people just died in thier sleep? Brain anerisms (pardon my spelling.) Have killed people out of nowhere."

Do you go to bed in the belief that such things couldn't possibly happen to you? It seems that in your recognition that such things do occur, you're demonstrating a recognition that they can and could. It's all based in the evidence.

-Evidence 1: Every day of your life, you've woken from slumber.

-Evidence 2: Some people have gone to sleep and died without waking.

So where does the faith part come in?

Every day of your life, you've opened your eyes from slumber. That's very strong evidence suggesting a great likelihood that it will happen again tomorrow. But it's not conclusive evidence because sometimes people go to sleep and die without waking. So we have EVIDENCE that people don't always wake from slumber. Either way, it's based on evidence, not on faith.

If you went to bed holding the strong belief that you would wake up a frog, that would be a belief of faith because there is no evidence to support the belief. The examples you keep offering are examples of evidence-based belief, not faith-based belief.
---

Re: "There are certain "Faiths" and "Beliefs" we have that we never think about. Like your "Faith" you are right."

My belief that I'm right has nothing to do with any kind of faith. I'm right based on reason, evidence and logic, not based on faith. That's why I can offer more than an assertion and can demonstrate that I'm right. I keep showing you where the evidence lies behind beliefs you claim are held on faith. That's a demonstration, not just an assertion. Beliefs of faith can offer nothing more than assertion because they're not based in evidence. To offer more requires evidence. And when a belief is based on evidence, it's not based in faith.
---

Re: "That you will convinve the world and everyone hear that infactic proof is all that exists in the world."

You're not listening. I've not used the word "proof". I never do for such discussions because, outside of alcohol and math, it's a meaningless word.

I keep showing you the evidence employed in what you claim are beliefs of faith. The evidence itself shows that these are evidence-based, not faith-based. You can keep producing examples all day long and suggesting that they're examples of faith. But as long as I can keep demonstrating the evidence behind those beliefs, I'm demonstrating that I'm correct, and not believing so out of faith. So far, you've presented not a single faith-based belief in all of your supposed examples. That again serves as evidence that I'm correct.

Re: "Yet with out faith in more, what would be the point of continuing your existance. To just wake and move untill the clock winds down and you return to the cycle of food you came from.

And what is wrong with that? It's what all of the evidence shows to be the case. There is nothing to suggest otherwise. So if one convinces themselves (through faith, since there is nothing else to suggest an alternate conclusion), that they are somehow more important than they really are, it changes nothing about reality. It only serves to disconnect their conscious processes from a recognition of reality -- delusion.

Believing that you're more structurally substantial than a locomotive doesn't make you impervious to the effects of being struck by a train. It simply makes you delusional concerning the outcome of such a collision.


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Beastt17
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21:36:56 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "LOL. Yeah I am."

Then kindly pay me the courtesy of demonstrating some of this supposed intelligence. Because in every single example so far, you've been demonstrated to be wrong. And constantly presenting examples of evidence-based belief and claiming their faith-based only demonstrates an inability to understand the difference. It doesn't demonstrate the intelligence you claim.


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Beastt17
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21:40:54 Nov 01 2008
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By the way, the sun doesn't rotate and reappear everyday. The Earth rotates, aligning various points on it's surface with the rays from the Sun.



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cryingmoon
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22:09:10 Nov 01 2008
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Beastt17

dude take a breath and breath the more he is able to back up his point of view the more you wine like a welp., he has demonstreated a very complening idea, and a good argrument , you just keep re peating , show us something new then re wording what you have said so many times already


i have fait, am i religious no , religion and faith dont mix with me, i have faith i will do what i need to , thats about all my faith goes to



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cryingmoon
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22:18:22 Nov 01 2008
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and to answer the question

there is nothing wrong with having faith in something such as if vampires do exist , if there was on faith in anything what would be the point of living there would be nothing to go for



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Beastt17
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22:19:22 Nov 01 2008
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cryingmoon,

If you have something to add to the conversation, then please do so. Your objections are simply that I keep demonstrating the evidence behind things OniKumo keeps trying to claim are faith-based. As long as OniKumo keeps making false assertions, there is nothing inappropriate about demonstrating that they're false, even if it becomes repetitious. If OniKumo keeps repeating false assertions, I'll continue to show them to be false.

Your problem seems to be that you disagree with me, yet can't demonstrate any flaw in my reasoning.

I'm not whining. I'm demonstrating reason. I suggest you learn the difference.

Now; have you anything to present for either side in the discussion, or do you plan to continue tossing insults toward anyone with whom you disagree, even as you demonstrate your own inability to refute any of the points I've demonstrated?

If you just want to insult people because you disagree with their demonstrably correct points, this isn't the place.



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Namir
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22:20:16 Nov 01 2008
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"I don't eat the seeds.

But even if the "meat" of the apple contained arsenic, the point would be that arsenic isn't something you should consume at all; just as faith isn't anything to which you should subscribe at all.

Arsenic is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount.

Faith is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount."
-According to that logic. The ultraviolet rays in sunlight is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount. So we all become "shut ins" and never go outside. LOL
---

"Re: "And 'Faith' is what allows one to push what they have already proven they can do."

That's not true. If one has already proven an ability, then they base their belief in that ability on the evidence provided by the "proof" (really, really bad word, by the way), not on faith.

Re: "But it is his 'Faith' in his abilities that allow him to climb higher."

That's not faith because it's based in evidence -- the evidence he has demonstrated in the past, combined with the neural signals (more evidence), he's receiving when he has reached a point to which he has climbed in the past. Faith is belief devoid of objective evidence. You keep tossing out evidence, and then claiming it's faith. When one has evidence, they have zero need for faith. Faith is only employed to provide belief where evidence is absent."
-So the rockclimber who has climbed to 20,000ft has already proven they can go to 50,000ft. Is that what evidence has proven? Or is that his "Faith" in his ability to go higher. His "Faith" in himself that allows him to push higher. His body may have proven he could do so to a point, but it is his "Faith" in his abilitiy to do more, which he has no evidence of at the point. That allows him to continue.

---

"There is no such thing as "scientific proof". The word "proof" should be discarded from any discussion of faith or of science. The word should be restricted to discussions of alcohol purity and maths. That's the only place where such a word has any true meaning."
-Another topic for another day. LOL LOL

---
As for your assertion that we have "faith" that the sun will rise; what we actually have is trust built on evidence. Have you ever known of a time when the Earth failed to rotate to align your position on the planet with the sun? If you went to bed in the belief that this wouldn't happen, and with no scientific backing for the belief, that would be faith because there is no rational reason to hold such a belief. But to appeal to evidence which has always supported a given assertion is the opposite of faith.

You're attempting to interchange the words "faith" and "trust". Trust is built upon evidence. Faith is held without evidence. They're not at all the same thing.
---

"Re: "How many times have people just died in thier sleep? Brain anerisms (pardon my spelling.) Have killed people out of nowhere."

Do you go to bed in the belief that such things couldn't possibly happen to you? It seems that in your recognition that such things do occur, you're demonstrating a recognition that they can and could. It's all based in the evidence. "
- Yes but I still go to bed with the "Faith" or I guess in your vocabulary "Belief" it wont happen to me. Just as you do.

"-Evidence 1: Every day of your life, you've woken from slumber."
- LOL LOL LOL Not exactly. I have been known to miss acouple od days through pure hybernation. LOL LOL LOL

"-Evidence 2: Some people have gone to sleep and died without waking."
-LOL Very true. LOL


---


"So where does the faith part come in?

Every day of your life, you've opened your eyes from slumber. That's very strong evidence suggesting a great likelihood that it will happen again tomorrow. But it's not conclusive evidence because sometimes people go to sleep and die without waking. So we have EVIDENCE that people don't always wake from slumber. Either way, it's based on evidence, not on faith. "
- I love this word "likelihood." LOL Its the same word Doctors and Lawyers use when they can't give a straight honest answer based of scientific fact. The word most used to describe what they "feel" will happen. Scientists use it often aswell, when they hope for one positive outcome but realize another is just as "likely" to happen. LOL LOL LOL

-----


"If you went to bed holding the strong belief that you would wake up a frog, that would be a belief of faith because there is no evidence to support the belief. The examples you keep offering are examples of evidence-based belief, not faith-based belief."
-I'm sorry that is just funny. I can't talk about this one. LOL LOL LOL LOL I would so like to wake up a frog. LOL LOL LOL LOL

---

"My belief that I'm right has nothing to do with any kind of faith. I'm right based on reason, evidence and logic, not based on faith. That's why I can offer more than an assertion and can demonstrate that I'm right. I keep showing you where the evidence lies behind beliefs you claim are held on faith. That's a demonstration, not just an assertion. Beliefs of faith can offer nothing more than assertion because they're not based in evidence. To offer more requires evidence. And when a belief is based on evidence, it's not based in faith."
-LOL this statement I actually like. Or atleast the last part. There is belief based on evidence, and there is belief based on faith. To say one is better or more right than the other is a little more pompus than any human can out right claim. LOL LOL LOL LOL
---

{Re: "That you will convinve the world and everyone hear that infactic proof is all that exists in the world."

You're not listening. I've not used the word "proof". I never do for such discussions because, outside of alcohol and math, it's a meaningless word.}
-I never said you used the word "Proof". Or I never quoted you as using the word "Proof" And as above. Another topic for another day. LOL LOL

---


"I keep showing you the evidence employed in what you claim are beliefs of faith. The evidence itself shows that these are evidence-based, not faith-based. You can keep producing examples all day long and suggesting that they're examples of faith. But as long as I can keep demonstrating the evidence behind those beliefs, I'm demonstrating that I'm correct, and not believing so out of faith. So far, you've presented not a single faith-based belief in all of your supposed examples. That again serves as evidence that I'm correct."
- I never said anything was solely faith based. But you seem to "believe" that only evidence is what makes the world turn round. Makes me wonder what evidence there is for the "big bang" and all of creation. Evidence today can not show evidence of what happens a million years ago, yet here we sit with many with belief of things that they can not show concrete evidence of happening. Yet science is the law of all I suppose. LOL LOL

----

{Re: "Yet with out faith in more, what would be the point of continuing your existance. To just wake and move untill the clock winds down and you return to the cycle of food you came from.

And what is wrong with that? It's what all of the evidence shows to be the case. There is nothing to suggest otherwise. So if one convinces themselves (through faith, since there is nothing else to suggest an alternate conclusion), that they are somehow more important than they really are, it changes nothing about reality. It only serves to disconnect their conscious processes from a recognition of reality -- delusion.

Believing that you're more structurally substantial than a locomotive doesn't make you impervious to the effects of being struck by a train. It simply makes you delusional concerning the outcome of such a collision.}
- LOL LOL Very true indeed. But "Faith" that we live for something more is what keeps many alive. So the question becomes, "What do you live for?" If you are just waiting to return to the food chain. "Why continue?" "Why not just rejoin it now?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{Re: "LOL. Yeah I am."

Then kindly pay me the courtesy of demonstrating some of this supposed intelligence. Because in every single example so far, you've been demonstrated to be wrong. And constantly presenting examples of evidence-based belief and claiming their faith-based only demonstrates an inability to understand the difference. It doesn't demonstrate the intelligence you claim.}

Directed at wrong person. LOL LOL You have been arguing with me. LOL Not him. LOL LOL



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cryingmoon
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22:22:40 Nov 01 2008
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Beastt17

let me blunt child

i gave my opion, do not challange me , i am adding my bites to the conversation, adding a diffrent point as he is,

why dont you stop repeating your self and insulting people so you can feel smarter, thats not the point of this forum



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Beastt17
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22:30:21 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "there is nothing wrong with having faith in something such as if vampires do exist"

AND NOW FOR THE DEMONSTRABLE VOICE OF REASON (rather than blind, unsupportable assertion).

http://www.local6.com/news/2921701/detail.html

"Police in Jacksonville, Fla., arrested a man who believed he was a 'vampire slayer' after he allegedly shot his Domino's Pizza co-worker twice in the face because he thought he was a vampire"

---

http://www.caller.com/news/2007/jun/16/man-gets-20-years-for-killing-woman-he-saw-as/

"An Arkansas County jury on Friday sentenced a 22-year-old man to 20 years in prison for shooting to death a Rockport-area woman he believed was a vampire."

---

http://news.scotsman.com/allanmenziesmurdertrial/Vampire-case-man-jailed-for.2468512.jp

"A man who claimed to be a vampire was branded an evil and dangerous psychopath yesterday as he was jailed for a minimum of 18 years for the "abominable" murder of a childhood friend."

---

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/vampires/15.html

"Although it's generally vampires who are considered deadly, those who hunt them down can be just as lethal, as the following modern-day stories reveal."



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Beastt17
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22:35:30 Nov 01 2008
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cryingmoon,

You're the only one here slinging insults. The rest of us are having a conversation, some with demonstrable truths and some with false-hoods, but only you are slinging insults. And I, for one, wish you'd stop.

Now if you have something with which to support your blind assertions, I'd be most anxious to have a look. If not, then we've seen your opinion, offered solid refutation, and you're done. So until you have something to offer, please be done.



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Namir
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22:38:01 Nov 01 2008
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{Re: "there is nothing wrong with having faith in something such as if vampires do exist"

AND NOW FOR THE DEMONSTRABLE VOICE OF REASON (rather than blind, unsupportable assertion).

http://www.local6.com/news/2921701/detail.html

"Police in Jacksonville, Fla., arrested a man who believed he was a 'vampire slayer' after he allegedly shot his Domino's Pizza co-worker twice in the face because he thought he was a vampire"

---

http://www.caller.com/news/2007/jun/16/man-gets-20-years-for-killing-woman-he-saw-as/

"An Arkansas County jury on Friday sentenced a 22-year-old man to 20 years in prison for shooting to death a Rockport-area woman he believed was a vampire."

---

http://news.scotsman.com/allanmenziesmurdertrial/Vampire-case-man-jailed-for.2468512.jp

"A man who claimed to be a vampire was branded an evil and dangerous psychopath yesterday as he was jailed for a minimum of 18 years for the "abominable" murder of a childhood friend."

---

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/vampires/15.html

"Although it's generally vampires who are considered deadly, those who hunt them down can be just as lethal, as the following modern-day stories reveal."}
_______________

As we had discussed earlier in the thread. Extremes should not be tolerated. These would be examples of extremes.

Science is not without its extremes aswell.

Just because a few take things to an extreme, does not mean that everyone with such a belief are without logic and restraint. Hell My coworkers Believe I am a Vampire, But none have staked me, And I am not sucking the neck of my female coworks. LOL LOL LOL



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Beastt17
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22:52:55 Nov 01 2008
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Re: "As we had discussed earlier in the thread. Extremes should not be tolerated. These would be examples of extremes."

As was pointed out (and apparently ignored), the word "extreme" is a relative word. It relates to a point of moderation. And the only such point of moderation regarding beliefs of faith is the same as for arsenic, murder, cyanide and animal cruelty. Zero is the proper moderate amount, and only zero can be shown to be without harm.
---

Re: "Science is not without its extremes aswell. "

Please feel free to raise your side of the discussion above the point of mere blind assertion. Show us some examples of the extremes of science. Science studies and attempts to understand reality. So unless you think reality itself is extreme, (which would be somewhat ridiculous), then what examples of the extremes of science can you present?
---

Re: "Just because a few take things to an extreme, does not mean that everyone with such a belief are without logic and restraint."

But we're not talking about a few things. We're talking about beliefs of faith. And there are things to be noted for beliefs of faith. All can be demonstrated to lead to intolerance, killing, persecution and murder. None can be demonstrated to lead to truth.
---

Beliefs of faith are harmful. They degrade one's ability to apply reason and logic, because they cannot be held on reason or logic. If one believes that one belief of faith can be true, then there is nothing to stop them from believing that another belief of faith can be true. And there is simply no basis for any claim that any belief of faith is ever true.


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cryingmoon
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23:14:42 Nov 01 2008
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"If you have something to add to the conversation, then please do so. Your objections are simply that I keep demonstrating the evidence behind things OniKumo keeps trying to claim are faith-based. As long as OniKumo keeps making false assertions, there is nothing inappropriate about demonstrating that they're false, even if it becomes repetitious. If OniKumo keeps repeating false assertions, I'll continue to show them to be false."

I have yet to see anything false about what he has said. But only two sides of the same coin. Nothing is prully faith or evidence based. All I see is you being goaded into an argument over details. LOL

and as for me adding to the conversation.

Is not faith the basis on which science was built, until evidence could be found? After all. Evidence that the world was round did not exist untill evidence was found. So where did the belief come from? Faith in ones beliefs is what holds one up until they have the evidence they are right. Science constantly states a hypothesis of something they have no consistant evidence of yet. Faith in the belief that evidence could be shown of natural scientific explainations for things for centuries people took for mystical and magickal, is the besis for all science. Until science has evidence they operate on a theory that at its very root is faith. Faith it can be done, that they can do it, and that they can do it concistently over and over and over again. Faith is what one has before they have evidence to tell them otherwise. Does that make thier faith wrong, just because they have not gathered the evidence to support thier faith yet?


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Namir
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23:34:01 Nov 01 2008
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{Re: "As we had discussed earlier in the thread. Extremes should not be tolerated. These would be examples of extremes."

As was pointed out (and apparently ignored), the word "extreme" is a relative word. It relates to a point of moderation. And the only such point of moderation regarding beliefs of faith is the same as for arsenic, murder, cyanide and animal cruelty. Zero is the proper moderate amount, and only zero can be shown to be without harm.}
-Happy you through the whole "animal cruelty" in there. LOL LOL After all how many centuries did science use animals to test thier theories on beofre someone determined it was cruel and extreme? LOL LOL


---

Re: "Science is not without its extremes aswell. "

Please feel free to raise your side of the discussion above the point of mere blind assertion. Show us some examples of the extremes of science. Science studies and attempts to understand reality. So unless you think reality itself is extreme, (which would be somewhat ridiculous), then what examples of the extremes of science can you present?
-Would not the development of Biological Weapons be concidered extreme? Would not the creation of Weapons that can destroy entire planets be concidered extreme? Testing on unborn babies. Is that extreme? Or is all good in the name of science? Is that what the new line should be. "All is fair in love, war, and Science." LOL LOL LOL

---

{Re: "Just because a few take things to an extreme, does not mean that everyone with such a belief are without logic and restraint."

But we're not talking about a few things. We're talking about beliefs of faith. And there are things to be noted for beliefs of faith. All can be demonstrated to lead to intolerance, killing, persecution and murder. None can be demonstrated to lead to truth.}
-Hmmm...Interesting point. Yes there are those of all "Faiths" who are so stone cold as to believe it is better than others. That only thiers is the right one. But this is not all. If faith is anything it is fluid. It opens ones mind to possibilities of understanding. "Faiths" mingle and grow and expand. This can be shown in the greek and roman mythologies where they accepted and adopted different gods and goddesses from the cultures they encountered. The same can be said even now about different faiths. It is the hard line that one is right above all others that breeds this hate and intolerance. Even in science.

---

{Beliefs of faith are harmful. They degrade one's ability to apply reason and logic, because they cannot be held on reason or logic. If one believes that one belief of faith can be true, then there is nothing to stop them from believing that another belief of faith can be true. And there is simply no basis for any claim that any belief of faith is ever true.}
-You are right. To a point. One can not claim that one faith is more true than any of the others. But that does not make it harmful. It only means that one can not judge the world by what they believe alone. When one understands this then one can open and explore the different realms and faccets of the world and "reality."



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La6Muerte66
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23:51:21 Nov 01 2008
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Ugh, I got tired of reading the posts from cryingmoon and OniKumo. You're both wrong. Faith is exclusively a belief in something devoid of evidence, and every time you post another argument wrongly using the word, you look even more ignorant.

By the way, using LOL repeatedly makes you look less and less like an intelligent adult and more and more like a foolish child. You're attempting to ridicule someone of obviously superior intelligence with childish taunts and insults. It's failing miserably.

Beast is stating many of the same arguments over and over again because YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE HARD FACT, and continue to post the same WRONG assertions. Faith in yourself is a gross misuse of the word in almost every situation.

And finally, because I'm not even going to bother with your most recent arguments (that I already know to be wrong), science is not based on faith, but on curiosity. No scientist (excluding Christian Scientists, who should be shot) believes something unless he/she can back it up and at least prove its likelihood with COLD HARD OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE.

Faith in immortal vampires may not be inherently dangerous in itself, but faith in general is dangerous regardless of the situation. Please, if you intend on debating, post something of academic merit, and not foolish assertions with no factual grounding.



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Kyriele
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23:58:30 Nov 01 2008
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I am new to VR so excuse my ignorance if such comes through in this post.

I am uncertain as to why faith (a belief in that not proven to be fact) and science have to be mutually exclusive?

Men of science believed and charted the end of the earth. Yet another faction believed that the world was round. To the point where sailors boarded ships on nothing more than "faith". This faith was justified.

Men of science found the invisible to be real when they located, manipulated, viewed and split atoms and other microscopic particles. The faith that mold on bread could be used to treat bacterial infections.

Perhaps if science and spirituality did not consider themselves exclusive, more advances could be made in both arenas.

I hate to see a discussion that started out as "Do you have faith in the existence of real vampires" turn into an LSAT examination with nothing more than 3rd year philosophical logic questions being shot at fellow members.

Ignorance and faith do not hold hands any tighter than academia and ignorance. To close one's mind off to facts or possibilities creates a stagnance in the human condition...or vampiric...whatever your place may be :)


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cryingmoon
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00:01:04 Nov 02 2008
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La6Muerte66


i am having more fun debating something , thats the point here, if i want your negative opion i will pull your lips from my boot, and ask you to speak to me, i am trying to get a wide range , rather then pick a side


on this discussion, i think every one has some vaild points, even if i do not agree with the person they are vaild, and have at leaste made a good atempt



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Beastt17
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Re: "I have yet to see anything false about what he has said. But only two sides of the same coin. Nothing is prully faith or evidence based. All I see is you being goaded into an argument over details."

Belief in vampires is purely faith-based. There isn't any objective evidence for the existence of people who have died, yet continue to exist in a sentient state or who live off of blood and can't digest what mortals eat.

Belief in one's ability to climb starts with the evidence presented by others who climb. When one tries to copy them and succeeds, the amount of evidence elevates. It's never a belief of faith. If one believes they can spread their arms and fly unassisted, that would be a belief of faith. And the outcome is quite predictable.
---

Re: "Is not faith the basis on which science was built, until evidence could be found?"

Most certainly not. Any practice of attempting to understand reality which isn't based in evidence simply isn't science. Science operates on evidence. Without evidence, you can't have science nor can you perform science. Science has only been around for about 400-500 years and has already undermined the beliefs of most faiths.
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Re: "After all. Evidence that the world was round did not exist untill evidence was found."

Untrue. The evidence existed for as long as the Earth has existed. Evidence doesn't come into being the moment it is found. Fossils didn't fail to exist until the first one was discovered. It likely existed for millions of years before it was discovered by man. Even the shadow of the Earth on the moon is evidence that the Earth is round (spherical, actually). And the Earth, Sun and Moon have existed for a lot longer than humans. The Earth has been around for about 4.6 billion years. The sun has been around longer than that and the moon has been around for less time than the Earth, but far longer than man.
---

Re: "So where did the belief come from?"

It came from evidence (such as the Earth's shadow on the moon, the curvature of the horizon on the oceans/shore-front, etc.), and was soundly denied by those who appealed primarily to faith.
---

Re: "Faith in ones beliefs is what holds one up until they have the evidence they are right."

It's more demonstrably correct to state that it's what "holds them back". How many beliefs of faith have ever been followed by evidence showing the belief to be correct? Only suspicions supported by evidence (not conclusive evidence), are candidates for latter conclusive evidence. Faith-beliefs tend to remain forever based only in faith.
---

Re: "Science constantly states a hypothesis of something they have no consistant evidence of yet."

This is not at all true. It appears your understanding of the scientific process and how it works is somewhat lacking which may help to explain why you fail to grasp the dangers of faith-based belief.

If a scientist were to offer an assertion devoid of evidence, he'd be laughed out of his profession. In science, only evidence counts. If you have no evidence, you have nothing to study.

A hypothesis is an educated guess, based upon observation. And it must also be a rational explanation. Any proposition which is without evidence is not considered to be rational.

http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm

You might really want to take a moment to read that page. It's fairly short and explains things in an easy to understand way.
---

Re: "Faith in the belief that evidence could be shown of natural scientific explainations for things for centuries people took for mystical and magickal, is the besis for all science."

You're simply making things up. Evidence is the basis for all science. Faith isn't employed in science and for very good reason. Both faith and science seek explanations. Only science offers confirmable explanations. Faith provides only blind assertion and often denies the confirmable explanations once they are available.

Science is the opposite of faith, not the result of faith. It might be said, however, that science is the result of faith's failures.
---

Re: "Until science has evidence they operate on a theory that at its very root is faith."

Again, this demonstrates a very clear lack of understanding concerning what science is, how it operates and what a theory actually is. A theory is the pinnacle of scientific credibility and must be formed on evidence. In the realm of science, it doesn't get better than "theory" and nothing is dubbed a "theory" until it is conclusively demonstrated to be in compliance with all of the pertinent known evidence.

When evidence points to a possible, rational conclusion, a hypothesis can be formed. The hypothesis must be researched (based on evidence), and then may be drafted into a document. It is then subjected to intense scrutiny by other scientists of various fields (peer review), most of whom hope to demonstrate a failure in the hypothesis. If a failure can be shown the hypothesis is deemed false and those who demonstrated the failure gain recognition. If after prolonged, intense scrutiny, the hypothesis is found to be completely supported by ALL of the pertinent known evidence, it may then be elevated to the level of "theory". Theories have nothing to do with faith.
---

Re: "Faith it can be done, that they can do it, and that they can do it concistently over and over and over again."

Once you show that anything can be done, you have evidence. When you can do it multiple times, you have even stronger evidence. But science doesn't even attempt to do that which can't be shown to be plausible on the basis of evidence. There is no faith employed or allowed via the scientific method.
---

Re: "Faith is what one has before they have evidence to tell them otherwise."

And this is the kind of faith from which the idea of vampires, spirits, volcano gods, rain gods, Zeus, Thor and all of the other myths arose. Unfortunately, when people adhere to evidence to show the faith-based beliefs to be wrong, those subscribing to faith almost always reject the evidence-based conclusions.

People didn't give up volcano gods when vulcanology was in its infancy. People didn't give up geocentrism when Galileo (among others), demonstrated, via evidence, that the solar system is actually heliocentric. Instead they did what people have attempted to do in this thread -- offered ridicule, insult, persecution and denial.

Galileo was charged with a crime for the presentation of his evidence. He was sentenced to house arrest where he died 9-years later and he was forced to publicly denounce is own findings. Giordano Bruno suffered a similar fate for offering rational assertions, based on evidence, which contradicted faith-based beliefs. He was first imprisoned, then tied to a stake and burned along with his work. But he has since been shown to have been right. He offered the evidence and the evidence has now conclusively shown that he was correct. But those adhering to faith-based beliefs sentenced him, imprisoned him and burned him at the stake.
---

Re: "Does that make thier faith wrong, just because they have not gathered the evidence to support thier faith yet?"

"Yet" is the game the faithful play forever. Christians have been playing the "yet" game for 2,000 years. Pagans have been playing it for much longer. Those who believe in vampires have been playing that game for thousands of years.

So let's compare such faith-based beliefs to the evidence-based beliefs. Let's look at one in particular because the likelihood of demonstrating the idea to be correct seems so unlikely and so difficult. And while I'll outline only one, remember all of the findings of science and remember that science has only been around for 400-500 years.

In 1930 it was noted that when a proton decays into a neutron, there seems to be a loss which is unaccounted for. This would suggest a violation of the law of conservation so it was of significant interest. Eventually it was proposed that an, as yet unknown, particle might exist and be released during the decay the process. Based on this evidence, science began the search for a particle which would have to travel at nearly the speed of light and be so unfathomably small that one could virtually become lost with the mass of an atom.

In just 26-years the existence of the "neutrino" was confirmed. Another 20-years after that, science was accurately counting them in neutrino detectors. This is how real discovery works. By contrast, beliefs of faith continue as nothing but faith, even beyond the point where they are clearly demonstrated to be false, and do so for thousands of years, continually proclaiming "just not yet".

The "yet game" may be the only hope of the faithful, but it is indeed a game, and is not in any way, supported by the demonstrations of reality throughout history. Only evidence counts and only evidence should be counted.

Anything else is no more rational than believing that Bugs Bunny really exists and will seek to tie shotgun barrels into knots if not provided with carrot offerings. How long will the faithful wait for evidence to confirm the reality of the Bugs Bunny entity? He just hasn't been confirmed "YET"?



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cryingmoon
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http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm


i looked at that page you sugested a very good read, i dont agree with it all but i do thank you for sharing it



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La6Muerte66
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00:08:24 Nov 02 2008
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Correction: Faith is firm belief in something for which there is no proof - Merriam-Webster Dictionary

To firmly believe in something for which there is no proof, or more accurately, no evidence, is not and never has been a tenet of true science. Quantum physicists don't blindly guess on something and then test to see if it's real. They test and postulate based on existing observations. String theory (yes, I brought it up again for the other side of the argument) arose because it made sense mathematically, and it accurately described the confusing properties of subatomic particles while unifying general relativity with quantum mechanics. No one blindly guessed that at the most fundamental level, everything consists of 1-dimensional (or more) strings. Were that the case, and there was no mathematical evidence, and someone still firmly believed in it, THEN it would be faith, and would be utterly ridiculous.



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La6Muerte66
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00:13:32 Nov 02 2008
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La6Muerte66


i am having more fun debating something , thats the point here, if i want your negative opion i will pull your lips from my boot, and ask you to speak to me, i am trying to get a wide range , rather then pick a side


on this discussion, i think every one has some vaild points, even if i do not agree with the person they are vaild, and have at leaste made a good atempt


I can't imagine how you're having fun LOSING a debate. If you want a wide range, you'll have to provide logical, rational arguments, and not (as aptly stated) blind assertions. I'm not presenting a negative opinion, I'm presenting FACT. The only points that are valid are the points that can't be refuted. Everything I've seen so far has been proven WRONG time and time again.

Please, I would like nothing more than to prove Beast wrong, but unfortunately, he's been right in everything he's written. That isn't my opinion, it's based on hard evidence, and is FACT. You should probably learn the difference between the two.


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La6Muerte66
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00:17:55 Nov 02 2008
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http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm


i looked at that page you sugested a very good read, i dont agree with it all but i do thank you for sharing it


If you don't agree with it all, then you disagree with THE ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY OF PLANET EARTH. We've all been through science classes (hopefully) and we all should have learned the scientific method, the difference between law, theory, and hypothesis, and how one comes to each in the process of scientific investigation.


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cryingmoon
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00:18:50 Nov 02 2008
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i dont care if i win or loose , thats not the point.

if you have that mind set in a debat you can not gain anything from it, or learn anything from it



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Beastt17
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First, Kyriele, thank you for posting in an inquisitive manner rather than one of pure arrogant assertion.

Re: "I am uncertain as to why faith (a belief in that not proven to be fact) and science have to be mutually exclusive?"

My first answer to your question is that nothing should ever been considered "fact". There are things we can demonstrate to be true such as the affect of gravity. But even hundreds of years after Newton first outlined the effects of gravity, what it was remained misunderstood. Eventually, Einstein showed it to be a consequence, more than a force. And this is the fundamental foundation of science -- to recognize that what we think we know is based on evidence, and that new evidence may always be found and new conclusions drawn. So the true scientist will attempt to refrain from utilizing the word "fact", unless attempting to speak to pure laymen at their level.

But faith isn't simply that which has not been "proven" (another dangerous word), to be "fact". Faith is belief despite the lack of evidence or even in disregard of refuting evidence.

Science adheres directly to evidence. If you have no evidence, you can't perform science. So assertions devoid of evidence leave no avenue for study. And if you can't study an assertion, then you can't confirm it. Confirmation requires evidence. So before holding any belief, one should have evidence that there is substance to the belief. When people hold a belief but hold no evidence, that belief is based only in faith.
---

Re: "To the point where sailors boarded ships on nothing more than 'faith'."

But this isn't the case. When sailors boarded ships and headed to the horizon, they already had the evidence present through the observation of the horizon (it curves), of the arrangement of the stars and of the curvature of Earth's shadow on the moon.

So they debarked on evidence, not on faith.
---

Re: "This faith was justified."

I think it's fair to say that anything which is justified, isn't faith. Things are only justified through evidence. If you have evidence, then you have an evidence-based belief, not a faith.
---

Re: "Men of science found the invisible to be real when they located, manipulated, viewed and split atoms and other microscopic particles. The faith that mold on bread could be used to treat bacterial infections."

Evidence isn't limited to the visible. Wind isn't visible, yet you'll not find a credible scientist who disbelieves in wind. Wind is confirmed on the evidence for wind -- the things it does. The idea of atoms was formed on evidence.

Alexander Fleming didn't discover Penicillium on faith. His original observation was as the result of a contaminant in his petri dish which provided a halo devoid of bacterial development around the contaminating agent. The contaminant turned out to be mold.
---

Re: "Perhaps if science and spirituality did not consider themselves exclusive, more advances could be made in both arenas."

Before you can confirm any proposition, you must have something to study. When paranormal investigators seek objective evidence (the something which study requires), they consistently come up empty. It's no different than if you swore there was a mouse in your microwave, yet continual examination failed to produce even a single mouse hair. There isn't anything to study. And this is the same thing we find with other proposed ideas such as unicorns, Leprechauns, gremlins, mermaids and zombies. In each of those examples, the conclusion is that they don't exist. But people who devoutly hold to beliefs of faith simply won't accept any conclusion except for the one they proclaim to be true. They've closed their minds to all other possibilities. So when science concludes there is nothing to study, they attempt to attack science, simply for not agreeing with their unfounded conclusions.
---

Re: "Ignorance and faith do not hold hands any tighter than academia and ignorance. "

I whole-heartedly disagree. Academia insists that information be available. One can believe in any imagined concept with very little information. But to demonstrate any concept to hold true to claims requires that one not ignore the evidence. Only in holding to faith, is ignorance of the need for evidence, promoted.
---

Re: "To close one's mind off to facts or possibilities creates a stagnance in the human condition...or vampiric...whatever your place may be"

Now turn that around. Who is more close-minded than those who won't accept a concept to be false, simply because they want to believe it's true, despite offering absolutely nothing of value to support their belief?

The faithful are the most close-minded of all. Even when their beliefs are demonstrated to be false, they refuse to accept it.



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La6Muerte66
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00:53:53 Nov 02 2008
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cryingmoon,

Again, entirely untrue. The entire purpose of debate is usually not victory for one side or the other, but to bounce ideas off of each other. The issue I have with this debate is that it is entirely one-sided. We would be learning from both sides if both sides had academic merit. Beast has been putting forth evidence, sources, and infallible reasoning, as (I must admit) he always does. Your 'side', on the other hand, would only be providing a benefit if it were based in just as much sound reasoning and fact.



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Beastt17
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Re: "i looked at that page you sugested a very good read, i dont agree with it all but i do thank you for sharing it "

It is not necessary that you agree. You could insist that a "theory" is a small ground-dwelling mammal and it won't really matter. The important thing is that people can look to see that those who disagree or misrepresent science, its terminology and the methodology are incorrect.


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cryingmoon
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i was not trying to imply that you put your faith in it, but some do,

thats why i asked if you did not have theroy or science to back it up , where would you go from there? i only ask because i am instreated in knowing



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La6Muerte66
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01:05:19 Nov 02 2008
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If there is no theory or science to back up any belief, it should probably be abandoned, because it is probably wrong.



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Namir
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01:08:40 Nov 02 2008
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This is the basis of your side.

{Faith is harmful.}

{We're talking about beliefs of faith. And there are things to be noted for beliefs of faith. All can be demonstrated to lead to intolerance, killing, persecution and murder. None can be demonstrated to lead to truth.

Beliefs of faith are harmful. They degrade one's ability to apply reason and logic, because they cannot be held on reason or logic. If one believes that one belief of faith can be true, then there is nothing to stop them from believing that another belief of faith can be true. And there is simply no basis for any claim that any belief of faith is ever true.}

-According to your side Mother Tereasa and the Dali Lama were both Harmful, Intolerant, and did nothing to furthur Truth or Understanding. Faith in anything is Evil even Logic. >;]



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La6Muerte66
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01:15:20 Nov 02 2008
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According to your side Mother Tereasa and the Dali Lama were both Harmful, Intolerant, and did nothing to furthur Truth or Understanding. Faith in anything is Evil even Logic. >;]


No, he said beliefs of faith, not necessarily everyone who holds them. Your argument is irrelevant. Acts performed by those of faith can be either positive or negative. It's the beliefs themselves that are harmful. Furthermore, are you saying that without faith, they would both be evil people, committing evil acts, and that they did what they did because they thought they were supposed to, rather than out of the goodness of their hearts? Face it, faith does not make good people. Good people can have faith; it's just harmful to their mental health.

And there is no such thing as faith in logic. Faith is a belief without evidence to back it up. Logic is the rational thought process of a sane mind. You're continuing to confuse trust and faith.


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Beastt17
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01:30:20 Nov 02 2008
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Re: "According to your side Mother Tereasa and the Dali Lama were both Harmful, Intolerant, and did nothing to furthur Truth or Understanding. Faith in anything is Evil even Logic."

Well, this is clearly a case of intentionally inaccurate paraphrasing. I didn't say that everyone who hold beliefs of faith is harmful. I said that holding such beliefs are harmful. They're harmful to the intellectual development of the self because it leads people to believe that anything they strongly believe, even if there is no supporting evidence or even in the presence of refuting evidence, might still be true. And this simply isn't the case. People need to understand that reality doesn't bend to their mental will. When you're wrong, you're wrong.

That doesn't mean it's wrong to try to assist your fellow man in a way that they find beneficial. But it's certainly wrong to try to help them in a way that they find detrimental, no matter how much you might believe you're actually helping them. And the latter is usually the outcome of faith-based beliefs.

As for truth; can you provide examples of where Mother Teresa or the Dalai Lama presented demonstrable truths? I can think of many areas where Mother Teresa held and promoted beliefs which are strictly contrary to the evidence and therefore, demonstrably false. I know little of the specifics of the Dalai Lama but I would imagine, as a spiritual leader, the same can be said of him. For one; both taught spiritualism; an idea encompassing the supposed continued existence of a person's consciousness after they die. This is purely without objective supporting evidence and in many cases, contradicts its own claims. So teaching people such things only adds to their ignorance and leads them farther from an understanding of reality.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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02:32:31 Nov 02 2008
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there is nothing wrong with believing in what you feel is right but that doesnt mean people, as beastt17 mentioned, can mix reality. you can believe that vampires are real, but you can not go around biting people or risking peoples life (not saying that you would) you can believe in their exsistance and live a lifestyle close to theirs without going to overboard with what you are doing.



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La6Muerte66
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Well, no. If you believe in the existence of vampires (of course when I say it I mean the immortal/hollywood variety; Beast means all of them) despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever, it is detrimental to your intellectual development. There's a difference between playful fantasy and belief in something that isn't real. One is healthy, one is harmful. You decide which is which (hint hint: the first one in healthy).



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La6Muerte66
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02:46:09 Nov 02 2008
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Dammit, *is healthy.

Oh, and if you believe something in your heart and there is no evidence to support it, you should probably get a psych evaluation.



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dabbler
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02:52:59 Nov 02 2008
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Faith.. Is one thing, wanting people to accept that there is physical evidence to present in relation to that established belief, that is another thing entirely, giving the fact that more evidence of forgery, and fabrications exist then Samples that are offered for scrutiny, keep in mind it is not just the Non-believer skeptic that wants to validate any evidence, it is also the questing for representative tangent proof for their belief.



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LouisLeMeer
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03:57:23 Nov 02 2008
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or as we learn in school, validate, validate, validate, cite, cite ,cite.

I would love to be able to say something and it be true, no matter how far fetched it is, but, im not a "deity" so.. its kinda hard.


Hope you get my drift ; )



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dabbler
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04:04:46 Nov 02 2008
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To get such a status you first need devoted clergy, ones that live off of your granting (through concession) favor.



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LouisLeMeer
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Haha, then the plan unfolds, i got 5 usd who wants to sell their soul first?

but yea, like i said, and in different words, fool be a fool that speaks endlessly and says nothing at all.

; )



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ThothLestat
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04:15:00 Nov 02 2008
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La6Muerte66 said:
if you believe something in your heart and there is no evidence to support it, you should probably get a psych evaluation.

How do you reconcile this statement with your belief in neo-paganism, shamanism and animism?



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cryingmoon
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04:27:01 Nov 02 2008
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thats a good question



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LouisLeMeer
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In the words of a well-known cartoon character "raahrooh"

Setting a logical mindset on something like this is very hard for an eclectic to do, seeing how, from my understanding, it is a belief that "to each their own." kinda thing.



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dabbler
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04:58:35 Nov 02 2008
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That and the Presents of factions, and sects that disavow, or adopt other better established faiths.



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Namir
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06:27:54 Nov 02 2008
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I am thinking an "Agree to Disagree" would be the better conclusion of this little act.



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Beastt17
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Would it have been better for the church and Galileo to "agree to disagree"? Or is it better to recognize truths, even if you don't like them?

Had the "agree to disagree" evasion been the result of other conclusions of evidence, we'd probably have half the populace still believing that the sun orbited the Earth, that the Earth is flat, that spirits cause disease and that evolution is a false-hood. (Unfortunately, about half of the U.S. population actually does believe that evolution is an untrue conclusion. But eventually, they'll come to accept it just as they did heliocentrism and the fallacy of the flood.)

Agreeing to disagree is, unfortunately, a cop-out intended as diplomacy. It's simply inappropriate to set truth aside in favor of catering to those who wish to assert their position devoid of support. If one side of any issue is fully supportable and the other without support, the issue is already decided. The only thing left to do is allow those without support to demonstrate to themselves that their ideas are unsupportable, by allowing them to try.



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La6Muerte66
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13:33:36 Nov 02 2008
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"How do you reconcile this statement with your belief in neo-paganism, shamanism and animism?"

lol. I knew someone would eventually bring this up. My beliefs are somewhere in-between the three, and I don't hold them in my heart, holding them to be truths. Given my own personal experience and comparing it objectively to those of my friends/colleagues, I've developed my own set of ideas about theology and metaphysics. For the purpose of this discussion and the idea of faith, I'm playing devil's advocate (I guess Beast is the devil? Haha), more than expressing my explicit personal beliefs.


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ThothLestat
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14:43:06 Nov 02 2008
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OniKumo, you give in too easily. Sheesh!
: )

LaMuerte:
So! You DO have faith after all! Even if you deny it to Beast.
It's okay, I won't tell anyone.
(psssst. it's on your profile)

Beast:
Galileo's case is interesting.
Despite his trial and conviction by the Church, he remained a devout Catholic throughout his life. He didn't believe that faith and reason were mutually exclusive.

Nor did Kepler, Descartes, John Stuart Mill, Francis Bacon, Thomas Jefferson, or this guy:

"science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Einstein

Were they ignorant ? Close-minded? Delusional? Con-men?


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La6Muerte66
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15:43:16 Nov 02 2008
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Haha. I hesitate to call it faith, for not only are they malleable and constantly changing based on my own experience, but was there no evidence to me I wouldn't hold any spiritual beliefs whatsoever. And I've had a psych evaluation (not for my beliefs, but they weren't left out, lol). The only disorder I have is autism. Not exactly related to the discussion.

I still feel that ungrounded beliefs are dangerous to your mental health. While I feel they should be abandoned, I know why it's hard for a lot of people to do so. However, no one has evidence for the existence of immortal vampires (the original topic of this thread), much like, as Richard Dawkins so aptly put it, no one has evidence that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. There is no reason for anyone to believe blindly in either.



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Namir
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17:12:36 Nov 02 2008
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{Would it have been better for the church and Galileo to "agree to disagree"? Or is it better to recognize truths, even if you don't like them?}
-Lets talk about truths and evidence. Science has yet to show evidence on how the univers and all of life has come to be. Yes wonderful theories. "Bang" And it all began. But no Solid evidence. No recreating the creation of a sun and planet in a lab. Sorry, No Solid Evidence. Just a Belief.


---


{Had the "agree to disagree" evasion been the result of other conclusions of evidence, we'd probably have half the populace still believing that the sun orbited the Earth, that the Earth is flat, that spirits cause disease and that evolution is a false-hood. (Unfortunately, about half of the U.S. population actually does believe that evolution is an untrue conclusion. But eventually, they'll come to accept it just as they did heliocentrism and the fallacy of the flood.)}
-Were I a Christian. This argument might mean something to me. But it doesn't. LOL Try attacking something I care about. And as for evolution. I agree with it on this aspect. Yes man Decended from apes. We keep Deceding from simple natural lives to a world that is killing itself with its own gluttony and pervers greed. (Money, knowladge, ect, ect, ect.) So you can Decend down the evolutionary ladder all you like. >;]





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Namir
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17:15:02 Nov 02 2008
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ThothLestat : Who said I gave up. LOL I was merely bored and wanted a nap while they rebutaled. LOL



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Beastt17
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17:58:41 Nov 02 2008
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ThothLestat,

Galileo's case is most certainly interesting, as is Bruno's. Both were Christians and both remained Christians, even as they were imprisoned (and burned, in Bruno's case), by the church.

But here's the point you're trying to skirt around; Galileo, Bruno and Kepler were utilizing evidence when they came upon the discoveries which have been confirmed to be true. They used faith when they adhered to the very beliefs of those who persecuted them, which in over 2,000 years, have never been shown to be anything but untrue.

Einstein's case again shows the importance of evidence and the failure of faith. And before we discuss this too intently, it should be noted that Einstein's "religion" was so far removed from most faith-beliefs today, that it's not really appropriate to call it "religion".

I see the quote you have misapplied all of the time when people are attempting to defend their faith-based beliefs. But all it indicates is an extreme misunderstanding concerning Einstein's beliefs. This quote cuts much more to the core of his beliefs and should be taken as his direct attempt to correct misconceptions such as the one you and so many other religious people seem to hold;

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein (Albert Einstein: The Human Side)

I ask that you pay special attention to the second sentence within that quote; "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Now try to apply any faith-belief to the phrase "so far as our science can reveal it".

Now to look at Einstein's greatest work, and his greatest failures. Einstein was a truly brilliant man and no attempt should ever be made to take that away from him. But he was a man and was not without his failures. And as we look to his success and his failure, a distinct pattern emerges.

His greatest year was 1905 when he produced his Theory of Relativity. This is the work he is heralded for above all others. In his own estimation, his greatest blunder was his original cosmological constant. This was an equation he applied to his work in order to alter his findings that the universe was expanding. It was commonly accepted that the universe was stable. So Einstein disregarded the findings based purely on the evidence and attempted to apply his cosmological constant to make his evidence-based findings fit with standard thought of the day.

He failed again when he ignored quantum physics and his reason for doing so is that he felt it wasn't the way God would have created the universe. This is where he offered his famous quotation, "God does not play dice with the universe".

Einstein felt that God would not make the universe to operate in a manner so difficult to pin down as to accomodate quantum mechanics or in particular, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was with this in mind that Einstein drafted his final theory -- The Theory of Everything. And it was this theory that won him dismissal and ridicule from the physics world. In attempting to adhere to his faith-based beliefs, he even violated his own Theory of Relativity.

When Einstein stuck to the evidence, his findings changed history and lead science in new directions. When he allowed himself to be lead by mere faith, the result was utter failure.

He provides another example with his calculations concerning gravity and the resutling conclusion of black holes. The evidence clearly suggested that black holes should exist. But Einstein allowed himself the faith that they did not actually exist. He considered them "too weird", and offered that there would likely be found some limitation which would prevent them from actually existing. He was wrong.

As for Thomas Jefferson, he was indeed another brilliant man. But as a Christian, perhaps you should look more deeply into his core beliefs.

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."" -- Thomas Jefferson

"It is an insult to our citizens to question whether they are rational beings or not, and blasphemy against religion to suppose it cannot stand the test of truth and reason." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." -- Thomas Jefferson

"My aim in that was, to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers, which have exposed him to the inference of being an impostor. For if we could believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind, that he was an impostor. I give no credit to their falsifications of his actions and doctrines, and to rescue his character, the postulate in my letter asked only what is granted in reading every other historian.... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore." -- Thomas Jefferson

Yes, at times Einstein was very close-minded and that's the reason he died as a failure and an out-dated old fool in the minds of the physicists of the day. When he allowed himself to fall to the folly of faith, the result was continually failure. When he allowed himself to think outside of the box and follow the evidence, even to seemingly ridiculous conclusions, he was brilliant.

Kepler makes for another great example. He was born to a Lutheran family yet he delighted in the findings of Copernicus. Copernicus had intentionally not published his findings until the extreme latter years of his life for fear of the church. In fact, it was Kepler who wrote the first outspoken defense of the Copernican system. And while he remained a member of the Lutheran church, he would not adhere to the Lutheran position on the real presence (the Sacramental Union), and was therefore, excluded from the sacrament in the Lutheran church. He also refused to convert to Catholocism which left him without refuge during the Thirty-Years War.

His science lead him to great discoveries but the faith-beliefs of his time ended up threatening even his mother's life as she was charged with being a witch. Had he not been so adept at applying logic, perhaps his defense of her would not have resulted in her acquittal.

He was continually forced to relocate during his life due to religious persecution and civil unrest. But when he adhered to the evidence, his findings were the very successes for which he is known today.

This is perhaps most strenuously obvious in his attraction to Copernican Astronomy which was (and still is), directly contrary to his faith-based beliefs. This is where he starts with faith, but finds he must adhere to evidence and then attempts to justify one against the other in his conviction that God had created the world according to an intelligible plan that is accessible through the natural light of reason.

Again, we find one marked as religious bowing to the need to comply with reason, not faith.

Galileo is now heralded as the "Father of Science" and his evidence-based findings were his greatest success. His faith-based beliefs lead to him dying under house-arrest as a criminal and a humiliated heretic.

Bruno was an Italian Christian monk when he began to adhere to the evidence and suggested that other stars would also be found to have planets around them and many with life. It took nearly 400-years for his idea about planets to be confirmed but he was right. Unfortunately for him, those who held faith-based beliefs as being superior to evidence, took upon themselves the task of burning him alive, at the stake and his evidence-based work along with him.

Einstein was brilliant when he adhered to the evidence and a failure when he adhered to faith.

Kepler achieved that which is still recognized as nearly impossible given the equipment of his day. And this he achieved by adhering to the evidence, even when it violated the faith-based beliefs of his church.

Newton was a religious zealot but also recognized the failure of the faith of his church. He was forced to keep these beliefs hidden, revealing them only in his writings where he offered that the Trinity was a blasphemy against God. But when he adhered to the evidence, he conceived of ideas which couldn't even be described through the mathematics of his day. So with the help of a brilliant friend, they devised calculus so that his ideas could be expressed.

Darwin too was a Christian. But his faith-based beliefs never lead him to any notoriety or confirmed conclusions. It was only when he violated his faith-beliefs that he found a path to new discovery and a better understanding of reality.

In every example, faith-based beliefs lead to failure and stagnation while evidence-based beliefs lead to new discovery, confirmation and a greater understanding of reality.



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SatansChild
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18:14:33 Nov 02 2008
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I believe in vampires as people --- to have faith in them as real beings -- I don't .



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Beastt17
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18:43:22 Nov 02 2008
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Re: "Science has yet to show evidence on how the univers and all of life has come to be."

How many times must it be stated that science operates on evidence? Obviously, despite being given a source from which to learn how science operates and what constitutes a "theory", you've intentionally learned nothing and continue to make the same statements which reveal nothing but ignorance.

Nothing can be properly called "theory" until it has been shown to comply with ALL of the known pertinent evidence. That's what a theory is. It's a well-tested, thoroughly challenged, complex concept which attempts to explain an occurrence of reality which, having undergone intense scrutiny, has emerged showing that it fully complies with ALL of the known pertinent evidence. A concept can't comply with evidence if there isn't any. So you simply couldn't be more wrong.

Your suggestion that science hasn't produced any evidence shows nothing but a lack of knowledge on the subject. Science has provided overwhelming evidence. If you don't understand that evidence or aren't aware of it, blame yourself, not science.

The fact that the universe is expanding is evidence in compliance with Big Bang theory. The cosmic background microwave radiation is nearly conclusive evidence, in and of itself. And the radio waves emitted from the universe itself fully support the cosmic background microwave radiation. Consider for a moment that when the Big Bang theory was first drafted, science lacked the technology to actually map the cosmic background microwave radiation. So they calculated a map instead, based on the evidence. Eventually a satellite was launched for the task of actually building a map and the resulting map matched the calculated map almost exactly.

As for the emergence of life, Abiogenesis is another well-founded theory. And if you take the time to actually look at the evidence rather than boldly and wrongly stating that it doesn't exist, you'd know that your statement has no basis in truth.

Science has successfully shown that a mere droplet of fatty acid in a water-based solution can serve as the membrane and body of a cell. They've shown that in the presence of a naturally occurring clay (montmorillonite clay), nucleotide materials (the building blocks of RNA/DNA), will absorb into the fatty acid vesicles and begin self-assembling into chains. They've demonstrated how the vesicles engage each other in true Darwinian competition even while not fully complying with all of the criteria to be established as life. That's not just solid evidence, that's on the verge of forming a complete living cell.


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rajakitty
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19:21:18 Nov 02 2008
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Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea so if someone believes in vampires as a religion it is basically a belief of an idea.

If you can believe that one can get aids from having sex with someone then who is to say vampires don't exist?

If you can believe you are gay and it is a gene thing then again who are we to judge about vampires?

If we can believe you are male or female then you can see the idea of a vampire.

I am not a person of vision for a vampire religion. Surely there is more to life then this but heck if the world can believe is all kinds of stuff why not have an open mind and be the beautiful mess we all are?

I like the idea of vampires living off the life force and learning and growing.
It is an idea so as people who or what is your idea?
Do you express it to be well liked or do you do things to make people think? Most people are afraid to be led by their heart. So what does your faith believe in?
I believe in gods, I believe in people of all kinds and religions of all kinds. I am unique as we all are so those are my rantings of a person looking in from another view..





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Beastt17
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19:36:56 Nov 02 2008
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Re: "-According to that logic. The ultraviolet rays in sunlight is harmful. Zero is the most reasonable amount. So we all become "shut ins" and never go outside. LOL

There is one very distinct difference that you've overlooked. And that difference is what makes your analogy completely wrong and misapplied. UV radiation is indeed harmful and can promote melanoma of the skin. But it's also responsible, through its interaction with lipids on the skin, for the production of most of the body's vitamin D supply.

So there is the difference. There is no benefit to ingesting arsenic, just as there is no benefit to holding beliefs of faith. Both are purely harmful. There is, however, a benefit to be found in exposure to the sun's UV rays, along with a very pronounced danger. So in the case of UV rays, one should use caution to be very moderate in their exposure, but shouldn't attempt to completely avoid all exposure as that too would have a detrimental effect.
---

Re: "-So the rockclimber who has climbed to 20,000ft has already proven they can go to 50,000ft. Is that what evidence has proven? Or is that his "Faith" in his ability to go higher. His "Faith" in himself that allows him to push higher. His body may have proven he could do so to a point, but it is his "Faith" in his abilitiy to do more, which he has no evidence of at the point. That allows him to continue."

You seem to be ignoring part of my statements in order to allow yourself a position of rebuttal. In this particular example, you've completely ignored; "combined with the neural signals (more evidence)".

If you've climbed to 20,000 feet before and you're doing so again, you receive information (evidence), from your body concerning your ability to continue. It's possible that you'll make it only to 18,000 feet before evidence provided you from neural signals indicates that you will not make it to 20,000 feet. It's also possible that you'll reach 20,000 feet and feel fully capable of reaching 25,000 feet. With each step, you evaluate the evidence. If you simply start out with faith and never apply the evidence, you'll die. If you work with the evidence and apply no faith, you'll either succeed in your goal, or turn back rather than forfeiting your life.
---

Re: "-Another topic for another day. LOL LOL"

The use of the word "proof" in reference to science is never a topic for another day. If you attempt to suggest "scientific proof", you're indicating a pronounced lack of understanding concerning the process called "science".
---

Re: "- I love this word "likelihood." LOL Its the same word Doctors and Lawyers use when they can't give a straight honest answer based of scientific fact. The word most used to describe what they "feel" will happen. Scientists use it often aswell, when they hope for one positive outcome but realize another is just as "likely" to happen. LOL LOL LOL"

I can only conclude that your understanding of the word "likelihood" is as devoid of knowledge as what you demonstrate of your understanding of science. Likelihood has to do with odds. Either the odds are good that something will happen, against the probability that it will happen or equally divided. In the context I utilized, it's saying that there is a strong probability. In other words, it's more likely to occur than not to occur. And you most certainly do understand this as it was your example that we're discussing. Do you not recognize that the odds that an individual will wake rather than die in their sleep are, for the average person, quite good?

That means, there is a far greater probability that they will wake, than that they will die in their sleep. Were this not the case, more than half of all people who go to sleep at night would die in their sleep rather than waking.

And now that I've headed off your attempt to evade the topic, it's time for you to simply admit that you could offer no rebuttal in regard to the points I made, and instead attempted to evade those points by focusing on a single word, all of which accomplished nothing to refute anything I said.


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Namir
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19:41:13 Nov 02 2008
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Ok. Lets stay with "Big Bang Daddy".

Let walk through it from the begining then.

The catalyst.



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Beastt17
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19:43:11 Nov 02 2008
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Are you asking a question?



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Namir
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19:45:42 Nov 02 2008
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LOL Yes. A question. A polite walk through of the "Big Bang theory" from the begining. From the origin of the catalyst.



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Beastt17
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19:50:24 Nov 02 2008
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Your question causes me to wonder if you fully understand what the word "catalyst" means. Are you asking what started the rapid expansion from a singularity?



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Namir
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19:53:33 Nov 02 2008
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Before that. The origins of the singularity. The origins of the elements involved. From the begining. Every circle has a begining. Lets start there.



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Beastt17
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20:06:20 Nov 02 2008
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I'm running a bit short on time today but I haven't received an answer yet so I'll give you a quick over-view. There is more than one current theory which might explain the Big Bang. The one I find the most plausible doesn't have any beginning. It's cyclic. It works rather like a star. A cloud of gas (mostly hydrogen), is drawn into a star by gravity. As the gravitational effect reaches a critical state, fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms begins. This process provides an outward force to equal the inward effect of gravity. Eventually the hydrogen is mostly converted to helium and the outward force begins to decline. Gravity then causes the star to collapse into a point of such density that it rebounds and explodes into a super-nova. As the cloud expands it also cools and eventually, gravity will begin to pull the matter from which the star was formed back together.

The cyclic view of the Big Bang is similar but not exactly like the above view of a star. You can begin the explanation at any point, where it be the singularity, the expansion or a contraction. If we begin with the singularity, it rebounds just as does the star, leading to a rapid expansion. The expansion produces cooling and the cooling leads to the formation of hydrogen along with a small amount of helium. Gravity causes the hydrogen to clump together until stars are formed. Then we work through the whole star cycle which accounts for the naturally occurring elements. But eventually, the effect of gravity slows the expansion of the universe and reverses the process until all of the matter in the universe is again contained in a singularity, which rebounds again.

Another view which is elevated in probability by the observation that the expansion of the universe is still accelerating is the "Big Rip" or "Big Crunch". Both postulate that, based on evidence, the universe will reach a state at which space-time can expand no farther. The result is a tearing of space-time itself, leading to the collapse of the universe. But keep in mind that "collapse" doesn't equate to "non-existence". The base components (perhaps strings), of the universe will still exist and properties of interaction will still exist. These properties of interaction will dictate the transformation the substance of the universe will then undergo.

The universe may have formed, collapsed, transformed and reformed billions of times. There are simply things we don't yet know. But just as Newton didn't understand the mechanism of gravity (and there are still questions about it today), gravity does indeed exist and reacts as Newton predicted. And his predictions concerning gravity were all based in evidence, not in his faith.



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Beastt17
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20:11:18 Nov 02 2008
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Re: "Every circle has a begining. Lets start there."

Is that what you meant to say? Circles don't have a beginning. That's one of the key features of a circle. And much like a circle, the base components of the universe don't indicate that they had a beginning. The evidence suggests that everything which exists now has always existed; though not necessarily in it's current form.

But the existence of virtual particles also allows for the apparent production of matter from what we would perceive to be nothing. But it's also important to note that "nothing" is a highly misunderstood concept. There is actually no such thing as a region of nothing anywhere in the universe.


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Namir
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20:32:32 Nov 02 2008
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The question was on the origins of the elements involved. Like the hydrogen element in your star. What created them?
All cycles have a begining. No end. But always a begining. Like drawing a circle. You put pen to paper. There is the begining. The elements involved are known. We know where they come from. You then begin the circle and continue it through the begining starting the cycle all over again. Just because you pick the pen up after continuing the circle through the starting point, does not erase that point.
So where is the starting point? We know what happened once the cycle started. But where does the elements involved come from? What are the origins of those elements? Atoms don't just appear from nothingness. Or did they?
Yes the Universe may be one big bang cycle that continues and continues. Imploding and exploding, Ripping and mending. But all begins somewhere from something.



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La6Muerte66
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21:10:05 Nov 02 2008
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Actually, you have no reason to believe that aside from your willingness to do so. Cycles don't necessarily have a beginning. It's most probable that all of the matter in the universe, in whatever form, has always been here, and always will be. If the cycle did indeed have a beginning what, pray tell, was before it? Nothing?



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Namir
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21:32:33 Nov 02 2008
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That is the question science will probably never be able to answer.

But what faith allows one to know without the need for explaination.

It isn't faith itself that holds back truth. Its the orginization of that faith into a religion. Where one tries to put boundries on what one can and can not have faith in. That is what blocks the exploration of truth.

My faith allows me to believe that there was a begining. That all flows from a scource. What that scource is, where it comes from. These do not concern me. I know where I am going and to where I am going to return. That is the truth of the matter. My faith doesn't keep me from understanding the mysteries of reality. It allows me to accept that I don't need to have them explained to me for them to continue to keep happening.



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La6Muerte66
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21:40:34 Nov 02 2008
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But faith does nothing but post an answer with no reasoning behind it. Similar to what I said elsewhere, I could say that all the matter in the universe came from giant wishing trolls that currently live in the hills of Vermont. My claim of knowledge is no more substantiated than yours, and is therefore no more (or less) absurd. You can believe what you want about your creation or afterlife, but don't claim to me that it is fact of any sort unless you have evidence.

This...THIS is why I don't tell people what I believe. You put forth your beliefs as if they can hold substance in debate. They're wholly irrelevant. The ability of ANY faith to tell you what the beginning and end are do not make them any truer.



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cryingmoon
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21:42:51 Nov 02 2008
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does there have to be a answer or a reason for it?



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LouisLeMeer
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21:49:38 Nov 02 2008
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They say that the wisest of us all constantly become crazed. One shouldn't wonder why, when pondering things so theoretical, you will not, and can not make logic out of the abstract. Stop trying.



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Namir
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21:57:52 Nov 02 2008
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Ah...But I never said what I believe in. Just a source. I am not telling you what the source is. I am not saying that this is the only source and that nothing else can be so. See you have been mixing the ability to have faith in something with the organizations of a religion. Thats what happens when people begin forcing thier belief on others saying that there is nothing else but that. You have your Faith. I have Mine. Does that mean we can not have a discuss because our Faiths and Beliefs are different? No. Unless you feel that that is the only way for us to get along. That one has to surrender and accept the beliefs of another.
Judging faith itself by the perverted organized religions that were developed from it is like judging the splitting of an atom by the weapons that developed from it.
The act of splitting the atom was not bad.
Niether is having faith is something. Anything.
Only actions can be judged as good or bad.
Not the ability to believe or have faith in something.


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LouisLeMeer
LouisLeMeer
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22:24:19 Nov 02 2008
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Agreed, OniKumo.

Well stated.



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TravelingEnigma
TravelingEnigma

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22:29:05 Nov 02 2008
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I for one believe that everyone is entitled to his/her own set of beliefs . I for one see nothing wrong with believing in the exsitancne of vampires wether it be the story immortal ones or the more believable ones that live and die like normal people and just feed on blood .



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La6Muerte66
La6Muerte66
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22:51:32 Nov 02 2008
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I'm not even arguing what I believe, as it's generally contradictory to my position in this debate. I'm not arguing that you're wrong because of what you think the "source" is, but for the purposes of this debate, the fact that you believe in a source when no evidence exists for it is unhealthy.

Yes, I'm arguing a point I don't agree with. Try and discredit what I put forth anyway. The facts still back me up.



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La6Muerte66
La6Muerte66
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23:00:10 Nov 02 2008
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does there have to be a answer or a reason for it?

Yes, there does. Everything has an explanation, whether we know what it is or not. The entire purpose of scientific investigation is to find out through reason and logic what said explanation is.

They say that the wisest of us all constantly become crazed. One shouldn't wonder why, when pondering things so theoretical, you will not, and can not make logic out of the abstract. Stop trying.

What, exactly, is abstract about the physical universe? Everything either is or can be explained logically. That's the beauty of the universe. It's a lot more complex than we ever thought, and that's part of what makes science so interesting.

Not to mention you're quoting a saying that isn't statistically true...


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Namir
Namir

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23:10:35 Nov 02 2008
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{I'm not even arguing what I believe, as it's generally contradictory to my position in this debate. I'm not arguing that you're wrong because of what you think the "source" is, but for the purposes of this debate, the fact that you believe in a source when no evidence exists for it is unhealthy.}
Really? Explain how. My doctor seems to think I am as healthy as the next. And I seem to have to correct the engineers at my job more than not.

{Yes, I'm arguing a point I don't agree with. Try and discredit what I put forth anyway. The facts still back me up.}
LOL As someone said earlier. Just because evidence has not been found yet does not mean that it does not exist.

Reminds me of a saying I once read somewhere.

"A unicorn cares as much that you believe it is real, as you care that it believes you are real." >;]



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La6Muerte66
La6Muerte66
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23:42:45 Nov 02 2008
Read 992 times

Just because evidence has not been found yet does not mean that it does not exist.

Actually, it does. The basic existential proclamation bears the burden of evidence. That's why a lawyer in a courtroom must first prove that a crime was committed before proving who committed it. There's no evidence that there is a flying purple dragon on Mars. Does that mean someone would be justified in believing there is one?


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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
23:42:45 Nov 02 2008
Read 992 times

This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Nov 02 2008  •

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