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Some psychics, or those that do readings, or metaphysical sessions, advertise as For Entertainment Purposes Only. Others attach clinical claims to their practice, usually attending training seminars, or attending a number of workshops.

What credentials can a person seeking metaphysical sessions expect to see. while I worked dispatch at a theatric Entertainment group, every one had a portfolio, some with surveys from customers.

Or in your practice do you rely on word reference alone?

This is an excellent topic Dab. However, you left off one other possibility for "credentials" and that would be testimonials. Having a portfolio/record/CV of satisfied customers could offer more in the way of credential then some weekend seminar ever could.

Just an additional thought :)

I just caught my typo.

Does your Practice rely on word of reference alone?

This is an off shoot of the Charging for Gifts, or Metaphysical Practices.

Can a person that is taught a skill, or practice, should they be able to display
A basic funtioning knowledge of their practice. A person learning, would practice with small circles of friends.

I only wish I kept a portfolio of my Craft of Tradition.

Never thought about it, but you bring up a good point. Is there a national association for such practices? And if so, what does one actually have to provide as proof of their abilities in order to receive accredation?

I think they should. If a person claims to have some specialty and has any formal study of it (I say any bc psychic 101 isn't exactly offered at most major universities) it would be unethical (in my opinion) to not display whatever credential they have.

As there is no way to objectively validate the "psychic" and/or "metaphysical," then understandably there is no way to validate, much less codify, monitor, and/or rate, those claiming to be practitioners therein. And without that, how can any monitoring agency or organization provide credentials for a field that is ... frankly... largely -- if not completely -- imaginary?!

As well might one attempt to provide credentials for such "professions" as qualified Starship Captain or expert Dragon Wrangler.


- Upir'

Regulation allowing readers to practice under For Entertainment Purposes
Make money from fee per service, usually flat rate, operating outside of that flat rate goes into gray consumer areas, favoring the reader.


Small parlor sittings, and sittings held under religious pretense blur the line
In Faith, or practice? Spiritual, or Psueso-Psycology?

I personally consider a visit to a psychic fair assures
Me that I can be transparent to others, watching how
Others invest more depth into something then intended,
I can still be mystified, it is more in the routine, and polish of ritual
And any presence of tradition. Like a good director has to have the basics put in a film.

A martial artist performs a set of moves.

The credentials should be considered for teacher student matters to protect
Both from any arising circumstance.

Apparently, there are several places to become accredited. Here is an example of just one.

Canadian College of Metaphysics

But are they accredited by a larger organisation or government body?

It's similar to a lot of these 1 and 2 year career colleges you see advertised on TV. They charge a lot of money and promise a lot of things but very few of them are accredited which means if you go to one of these places and graduate there won't be to many places you can get a job at. If it's not accredited most places of employment won't even look consider you for a job, printing off a pretty bit of paper you made yourself would have more authority then most of these "colleges."

Now I know there isn't exactly branches of massive "paranormal/supernatural" organisations where you can go and get a job with but I think I made my point.

Sorry Xavier, I forgot to put the around my post. I was thinking the same thing about the accreditation. For myself, who gives the accreditation would be an important factor. However, everyone will have different ideas about who is important. In the example above, the college displays an accreditation from the "World Metaphysical Association". For anyone willing to pay the tuition at any of these colleges, their accreditation obviously has some weight, else they wouldn't be willing to pay for the training. For you and I, perhaps not. I am not active or well versed in this community at all. I could spend several hours looking into just this one college and their supposed accreditation. Like everything else, it could be just an elaborate scam to make money. Although, it could be as "legit" as they get. As far as I know, no government accredits such schools....

It would be good to hear from anyone "in the know" about this topic. I sure that at least one person here must be quite knowledgeable about this topic...

I would be curious what happens when a client experiances questionable
Practices, would a person represented by accredited bodies be involved in any cases against the practice?

Xzavier and furcifer -

The exchange between you both illustrates well my earleir point that you can't find true credentials when coming from a highly imaginary field. And, by extension, the reason why the only place where any "diploma" (not accreditation or credentials) might be provided would understandably be from the very "educational" facility whereat the very courses in such imaginary fields are provided.

In other words, to use the spurious example I forwarded, it makes sense that if you are going to claim to be an "expert Dragon Wrangler," the only place from which you are going to have any credentials will be from the very "college" at which you foolishly paid good money to be taught such a fanciful "profession."

Obviously, few outside that college are likely to be very impressed by such a "diploma."

By the way... if anyone is interested, I'm thinking of opening up just such a college! Send me lots of money and I'll be more than happy to spend a few pennies giving you a really cool-looking "diploma" afterwards!


("You don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector-- they expect results!" - Dr. Raymond Stantz, para-psychology professor; "Ghostbusters")


- Upir'

Some of those Pop-up Instituites Offer Partial Scolarships, and Grant support as well, something that the Grant board has been questioning lately, some of the filings being questionable.

I have no doubt that there are people with special abilities. There is no reason, that I can think of, why they shouldn't be able to take their gift and make an honest living from it.

Of course many of those who advertise are little more than "hot readers" and scam artists like Miss Cleo etc.

Personally, if I went to one of these people I would rather see a book filled with personal statements attesting to his/her accuracy than a diploma on their wall from a place I've never heard of.

Heck, I am a professional numismatist (coin collector/grader) but unless you are in that field you're not going to know about the places and sources I have studied to become one. Which is why I keep a list of satisfied customers etc to help a perspective customer entrust me with the grading and appraisal of their collection, some of them being worth many tens of thousands of dollars.

Hobby and Craft is a good parelle to use. A novice is building their practice,
People presenting themselves as something they are not will usually follow the would be clients assumtions before presenting any accountability to their practice, studies, or accreditations.

Xzavier -

I used to be an amateur numismatist, as well. However that is dealing in items of intrisic and quantifiable value: actual physical objects of inherent worth (i.e., coins). I cannot imagine a field more diametrically opposed in both principle and practice to the "metaphysical" where nothing is concrete, nothing is quantifable, and nothing is verifiable.

As for personal testimonials, the testimony of the gullible is hardly a substitute for actual verifiable credentials and results.


The only valid credentials I would accept of a claimed "psychic" would be ANYONE capable of winning James Randi's "ONE MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE".

As this challenge has been around for at least a decade and never accepted by any of the thousands upon thousands of claimed "psychics" out there, this provides for me the most telling and accurate "credentials" of all: that of being nothing more than liars and frauds.


- Upir'

Those that apply their practice to Entertainment, and Social Gatherings build portfolios just as Theatric performers, even a scrape book is likely to be presented of events that the reader performs.

Having worked with booking acts ( and being in a few).

I am aware of the entertainment element of such Craft.

When it passes into "Clinical", or the same demonstrations are presented under "spiritual ritual", then I take note, Uri Geller Doesn't want people to know his past. Can you find any of Uri Gellers Credentials? He won't even say he is a psychic..

Sylvia Brownes Agent Insist that they are "First and Foremost a Ministry", yet on Sylvias Site Psychic is billed over Spiritual Adviser.

I found this under A Canadian Instituete under Ethics, I like the concise language.

Code of Ethics

Consumer Hot Lines are also a possible source to Screen readers.

Upir- I am very much aware of the differences between numismatics and the "craft" etc. I was simply trying to provide an added example to the point you raised, that unless someone is active in the professional field of psychic activities etc then they wouldn't understand (or be able to verify w/o further study) a persons credentials from a school or other accrediting organisation.

Here in California, The readers are preempting regulation with full discloser. This is pressuring suspect practices to slink around, and operate out of Hack Joints. I watched how the Spiritualist Church Ranks their clergy, I have also witnessed first hand challenges to presented Rank in Mediums, very Claw, and Tooth.

Dab- In general I don't think laws limiting any kind of practice (religious, spiritual etc) should be allowed as long as the practice isn't hurting a person or animal (sacrifices should be banned, that sort of thing). But, in the case of psychics, mediums etc I think there should be some kind of regulation, at least a disclosure of some sort.

That discloser has been reworded many times. The practice of Mediumship, veries little from out of church, and in church use. So placing that same ability (used by mentalist with a matched accuracy) under the pretense of religious service is though questionable on a case by case basis, is legal, and protected by those same laws protecting religion, Robert Tilden, and other Prayer Profiters know this all too well.

In the case of organised religion or other groups/practices/individuals that operate (exclusively or primarily) as a not-for-profit organisation then I would not be a supporter of regulation.

However, those that operate as a for-profit (primarily or exclusively) some regulations should be imposed. That way, even if the psychic hasn't any 'credentials,' there would be a way of reporting bad business practices, lying, price gouging etc. And to provide some protection for the psychic themselves. If there were some regulation/disclaimer they wouldn't be held responsible for a person taking their advice in the wrong way, a customer taking their advice and loosing money off a lottery etc.

They do have loop holes though, Retreat Fees, seminars, they veil everything through Nonprofit fronts.

The few well intending Organizations that don't use Mediumship suffer under the tightness of Bueracracy..

Then I suppose regulations wouldn't be the best. What's the line in Star Wars that goes something like this "The more Star Systems you grab with your fist, the more fall through your fingers?"

I'm still wondering what exactly somebody would have to do to prove themselves worthy of receiving accreditation for metaphysical practices.

Lets just table the discussion of weather or not such abilities even exist, we'll just say for the purposes of this particular reply it doesn't matter. How does one prove their abilities and to whom?

Would they have to accurately read somebodies mind? Predict a certain number of future events? Find a lost child? Move a cup with their mind?

These are just some of things that I can think of where a person who has an ability might be able to prove themselves. However, what about things like reading auras, or sensing spirits.

I wonder how one would be able to prove those abilities?

To demonstrate their practice in a routine manner. I find some off the Code of Ethics to be interesting in their wording.

Accounting for the number of sessions one performs.
Even if those are unpaid, or not, gives a potential consumer a base for determining a persons practice. The Advertisement that a person uses to locate a reader can be telling as well. Though some publications "Buyer Beware" their ads.

I know this is a topic silenced by “prove it then rants” and I expect no more from the current vibe seen on VR forum.
Sterile and negative as it is on a forum designed for those who love “vampires” that has now become a ridicule for such likes and artistic expressions which I believe this site was originally made for, I do fear a future where the vampire rave will change it’s name due to the onslaught of skeptics and religious or political views forcing the real community to look else where for our kin and understanding to our inner feelings.

Back to the show … the best credentials for something science doesn’t understand is the word of a friend, a little schooling in the topic would look good to some and pointless to others.
The main problem with the million dollar contest is this…….
“Science is the ability to reproduce results without failure”.
How can we prove something that science doesn’t even understand based on it’s lack of knowledge and understanding of occult matters. To help you understand this, is in the fact science doesn’t think a bee should fly… yet it does .. yet science clearly states it cant …
So when one shouts prove it to science… is pointless and just bullying, if we said prove god with science then the post would be seen as intolerant, however I witness constant bashing on VR of occult topics and no safety net or rules?
Im a member of kheperu house a vampire org registered as a religion … yet one is blasted for saying my belief is in a vampire ???
Something wrong with this picture?

And what Credential would people like mediums to have to be comfortable or to trust them? After all, you can have a degree from Hardford or Yale and still be a dickhead. It ownly takes money to be certifide in say Hypnosis. Same amount of training to learn however. I'm have trained with James VanPraagh for meduimship but does that mean I'm better at it because of the additional training? Well yes it does. But only becuase of the extra training and time I put into it. Not because of the paper or title on the wall.

James Van Praag Acted in a role as a medium, to me personally that qualifies him as a showman, not as a medium. What certification does Van Praag offer? Does he hold workshops?

Lav, I would note that credentials is not only a matter skeptics address, but in the occult community there are plenty of challengers to the claimed/ presented credentials of others, usually they arise when event bookings are
Listed..

Billy, yes a person could have gone to Yale and been a dick head and so could someone who studied under James Van..(forgot the sp).

I could have gone to the most respected teacher on Earth, laid down enough money and more than likely would have received what I came for. No, just having a bit of paper on the wall doesn't make you the best but what it took for you to get that paper does make you the best or at least better.

You say you are better at being a medium etc because you studied with that man and I say others are better at what they do because they went to Yale or Harvard.

The truth is you're only as good as you have the ability to learn and apply what you've learned mixed in with intuition/instinct. However, going to a higher school makes is probably going to make you better than others.

lavisbre -

Why is it that should there be those here for whom at least a modicum of reason and knowledge are considered essential to intelligent discussion be considered engaging in an "onslaught" against those in this community?

And as you do not consider any such as we worthy of membership in your "true" vampire community, then are only those willing to believe in almost anything put before them the only ones you deemed worthy of membership in that "true vampire community"?

If so... then it would seem the only qualifying characteristic for your "true" community is simple ignorant gullibility.

And for all such... no credentials are ever needed. ;)


- Upir'

oh .... were on that again lol

The first person with a science degree that speaks in favor of occult claims will be embraced as an icon.

What if a well sought after psychic trainer come forward as a really elaborate
Faker, very convincing as a psychic, and he just came out as a performer, now say he held seminars, and work shops to teach people what he did, only he didn't teach him what he did to appear to be so good( the tricks, and ruses), what course of action would a person that went to and payed got classes have?

I doubt that Dab. From my experience the bulk of those who believe in the occult and related topics are against scientific involvement, even when it's favorable. I don't understand why they would attack an intellect or member of academia who offered help/proof but they do. Perhaps because if science proves them right then they loose the "magic" and mystery of it all.

Just an opinion.

Junk science presented by Ologist with odd names tend to appeal more to the occultist, you are correct though about accredited scientist, and psycologist being quickly shunned by those in the occult services.

As James Randi's own involvement in this very subject has made clear, psychic are... tricksters employing a combination of sleight of hand, magic tricks, and a charlatan's and con-artist's knowledge of Human psychology to decieve others into believing that the tricks (and that is what they are) being performed are not mere illusions but, in fact, the result of "supernatural" or "paranormal" forces and energies that the "psychic" alone is capable of understanding, harnassing, and controlling.

For this reason, Randi's "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge" continues to go unaccepted by... anyone.

Thus, it has always been far more the case that good magicians are far more tempted to become "psychics" so as to attempt profiting from people's gullibility than do are motivated to do, as did James Randi, and directly challenge the "psychics" (like Uri Geller) and "faith healers" (like Peter Popoff) by revealing their deliberate lies and fraudulent activities.


- Upir'

This thread has diverged from the topic and has begun to descend into bickering, as has happened in other threads with the same contributors.

Members ought to be capable of communicating, and even disagreeing about a subject without sniping at one another.

Some level of maturity and mutual respect is required for a forum to be successful in discussion. The behaviour witnessed over the past few weeks on this forum is not a good example.

Recent changes in the status system have meant that the forum now has more room for real progress towards an intellectual platform. It would be nice to see that opportunity being grasped.