The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

I was chatting to a friend yesterday, and among other things she made me laugh when we chatted about the Mayan Calendar and the fact that it ends in 2012 as they predicted that this was to be the end of the world. She said that a race that couldn’t see their own demise isn’t worth believing. I tend to agree...

So here's my question. If you were to believe in a prophecy what factors would you take into account?

Y'know, I almost got pissed when I read the thread title. lol.

Hmm, if I were to believe in a prophecy, I guess I'd expect the person who made it to never have made a failed prophecy in the past. The prophecy would have to be specific enough that it couldn't be mistaken for any other event. It would also have to make sense from a logical perspective, and at which point it's a lot less of a prophecy, and more of an act pf reasoning. I guess, in a roundabout way, I'm saying I would never believe in a prophecy that can't be independently verified. Nor would I believe such a prophecy was supernatural in any way.

I agree with you BloodLife.
For me to believe in a prophecy, the group would have to at least have been able to predict their own demise.
Also, every nut-case cult wouldn't jump on board at the first thought of the end of the world.

I thought this was hashed at the last post on this. Truth as far as we know the maya calender does end 2012, yet many specualte that calander is a new begining, and the calender will start over at this point.

Was a great documentry on the history channel about the doomsday prophecy.

I would consider the Profit Margin. I don't even put much stock in Economist,
or the majority of weather services anymore. Trend tracking journalist are sometimes able to impress the observant, but such journalist ( the author of Future Shock, and Studd Terkle, even Theodor Dreiser) are a rare breed now
a days.

I would say any "seerer" that aimed at not only an event, but the chain of events that lead up to it, would make many believe, while others would pause with a suspicious eye. One would then need to track the "seerers"
association (if no applicable involvement is found in scrutiny) then I still would not write it down to supernatural sources, that is just past cliché already. Any "prophisy" that requires intepretation ( after the alledged event) is to be laughed at, and logged as a failure.

I knew you were gonna say that :-p

Like the prophecies of the new millineam, scare tatics for religious based idenities and to make our society freak out.

And the next morning the day was like the days before.

See Blood Life, had you properly logged that prediction, you could use it as a base for a Dabblerology Research Grant. Even I know how unpredictable I can be.. aside from my obvious tenacity for confronting the slights of pretense in practices presented as mystic, or supernatural. I would be the first to invest in your program, considering I could stack the deck for sucess.

lol .. if only it were just about 'the' money!

It is the bases for Sensational Fringe Esoteric Pseudo-ology, and the "prophecy" is usually explained in a book(or seminar), then classes are offered so the reader can be invited to instructions, life times shares for
Bomb/ Survival Bunkers.

How do we know they DIDN'T predict their own demise, and simply couldn't...or wouldn't...do anything to stop it?

Some people can accept the weight of history.

Also, one world ending and another beginning may happen on a level, psychic, spiritual, or physical...so subtly we may not even notice it...or so massively hugely that it shatters our previous notions of existence, and we are left thinking it was like that the whole time ANYWAY.

Or, the world could blow up. Whichever.

So setting the degrees between "subtle", and Cataclysm.. leaves out the greater probability, Nothing.. Nothing is going to happen, subtle? Does that mean something like, the president gets a splinter on 12/12/12? Thus Fulfilling the prophecy (that does not exist to begin with)?

well myself I am not sure I believe Prophesies of any kind... I mean I know they may of knew the demise of their icvilization would come, yet for someone or persons to determine when the *END* is ... well I just do not think it is fiesible (sp) in my opinion.. so I would really have to know alot more before I believe a prophecy.

well i belive in prophecies but the myan calender ending in 2012 doesnt really hold too much for me considering in the myan calender there were only 10 months compared to our 12 so that would tweek the date a slight ammount and the fact that 2012 could have been what they had gotten up on the day that there civilization dissapeared . i would be more concerned with how an entire civilization that is capable of writen infomations just dissapears with out a single documentation...

What would make me believe in such prophecies? A long line of other predictions turning out true, and that their predictions are not cryptic. If the Mayans or anyone who can see into the future said, there will be an earthquake in (insert city or region) on (insert date). The veiled language that allows us to look backwards and decipher have no real future insights which is often the case for many prophecies.

heh the mayans were the masters of astronomy. there calander was more accurate then western calanders at that time.
buut whos to say that they just didnt decide to stop making a calander? like hmmm we have a calander that we can use for about 800 years lets take a break.
people could be looking into it to much. making somthing out of nothing.
if it was anyting the world would just shift into a new age. astrologically speaking.

So they spend an age making a calendar only to be destroyed once it was finished ..!!

The prophecy itself never say 'end of the world' it just mentions the end of a galactic cycle.

the mayan calendar also matches up with the I-ching. heres a video clip on it; http://www.experiencefestival.com/forum/show-2901-3933.html

Please stay on topic. BLOODLIFE's discussion question was not do you believe in 2012, the Mayan calendar, or any apocalyptic prediction- but rather what would make you believe in those prophecies.

Thank you meeper ...

Many prophecies have also been dead right. Nostradamus was a great one for being accurate.
He was born a Jew but later converted. Do you think religion or the habits of a person need to be taken onboard when believing in a prediction?

Nostradamus' predictions were also incredibly vague, and were only verified after interpretation following the events they supposedly predicted. Had they been clear enough that the events could have been seen ahead of time, it might be a different story.

La6Muerte66~

You are absolutely correct ... but not what I asked.
Most predictions are vague and down to us on how we interpret them.

LOL, interesting that you mention Sylvia Browne. Again I tend to agree with you on that one, vague being an understatement.
However I will say it again that most predictions/prophecies are vague.
Wouldn't it be funny if it was simply guess work and nothing to do with a special ability.
What if it were mathematically based, ie: a good guess based on how we 'think' our savings will do in a bank... could this sort of prediction also carry as much weight as a character drenched in mystircism or having a character that could be considered escentric..?!!

The Bible code offers an infusion of math into the prediction process. Equidistant Letter Sequence is the term used to define a mathematical equation to pick out significant letters that then form a message. However, I personally wonder about its effectiveness because it relies on pages and grids that are dependent on user selection. I could not tell you if they are using the original Torah or whose translation as those tidbits would be crucial to where the letters appeared in the grid.

Ahh, funny you should bring up codes in the Bible. There's a fantastic video I just came across today that tackles that issue head-on. I won't post it, as it contains questionable language, but the link is:

Full-screen.

I think the best possible answer to this question would be..."Something to look forward to." Many within civilization have become fascinated with prophesy. Any will do. They come to be the "milestone" within the civilization, much like that of a calendar date. Once the prophesy has come to pass, whether it was right or wrong, or instigated by any means nessessary, then the things that were supposed to come to pass usually open a new door for discovery.

My best way to put it anywho.

Most prophecies are decoded my humans an the interpetation of these is based on what that person sees when decoding them.

Its is a vague illusion we put into a vision or dream of others. For one phrase may hold different interpitations depending on the people decoding them.

Public scutiny prior to the prophesied event, would lend to the prophet, so few prophesies are made during live venues.

Statistical based guesses, or trend tracking differs from prophesy, usually prophesy involves Providence, or mystic sources. Pseudo- science (remote viewing) have had the spotlight (and floundered).

I can predict any number of events, and with hindsight adjust any undisclosed elements to suit, that doesn't make me a prophet.

So to me something would need to be avoided, there would be a chain of events (with evidence they had been foiled).

A number of self titled prophets have been caught greasing palms to influence political matters in forieng politics, turning followers of those phrophets in to very convinced followers.

Even if a phrophecy appears accurete, so many logical questions would follow. To me those questions would need to be answered, surly a prophet
Could do that.

well, considering the fact that
the bible clearly stated that
no man will know the date
that the world shall end

i believe that completely.
and its true. every one i know
was saying that the world would end
on the date 06/06/06
and it didn't. so, we won't know.

Consider this then ....

What if a machine were devised to prophecize and it came to a conclusion using numbers. Would that ensuing prophesy be given any more clout that one said by 'flesh and blood'?

You mean a machine that made predictions using statistical analysis?

I would certainly believe it over a person making a prediction. Computers, provided their programming isn't faulty, don't make mistakes. By deciding on the most likely result, considering a large enough number of variables, I would be a lot more likely to trust in its accuracy. Still, by no means would I believe it to be 100% accurate, because there are always unforeseen circumstances. It would still be, in my opinion, as accurate as anyone can be.

yet most computers are as only smart as their programmers, and errors would be their. Calculation of prophecies using numbers.....seems to me like another code i have read about...*thinks*

Bible code. and yet this is still left up to the interpetation of the person doing the decoding.

It's not quite the same as the Bible Codes, as the video I linked already demonstrated how EVERY piece of text has words encoded in it. With a language with only 26 letters (22? in the case of Hebrew, not to mention the text is entirely comprised of consonants) it's not hard for words to be coincidentally "coded" in any piece of writing.

A program that uses statistical analysis would doubtless be incredibly complicated, using language and logic that we just don't have right now, it is still possible to make in the near to distant future. If an algorithm can be constructed to make such comparisons and analyses, then very accurate predictions could be made by said program.

The obvious err with a machine analysis is that it would be the product of man. Our dispositions would hinder the analyses as well as the programming because of our own limited knowledge. Anyone can make up formulas and try them out, but it doesn't mean the answer is any more valid. I would imagine you'd have many more unintelligible results than coherent messages.

Wow meeps, you kind of hit that one right on the head.
I agree totally.
The thing is a machine wouldn't be able to calculate the way 'man' thinks thereby guiding a new type of destiny.
People can be totally random and unpredictable ... and that's just our governments .. lol

Which is why I said such a machine would have to be incredibly complicated, and even then, could not make definite predictions. The best such a machine could do is reason the most statistically likely scenario, and I already mentioned why such a scenario could still be wrong.

The reasoning of such a machine, in comparison to the reasoning of any single human brain, over the same timeline, would still be superior. Humans make mistakes. Machines (again, provided the program does not contain errors,) do not.

Machines (again, provided the program does not contain errors,) do not.

I do not believe this, for a machine like any other machine needs maintance to keep going. and the flaws with machines is so wide for the parts thy have.(just like cars)

Bigger and better the machine more parts, therfore capable of more errors. Yes humans make mistakes, look at the world today. yet to predict prophecies from a machine.....Fortune cookies in bigger scale. I think not to many vairables.

La6Muerte66~

the other thing we need to consider is that a machine is without 'feelin' or compassion. Which is why I believe so many prophecies don't come about.

I suppose we need to be clear about a prophecy being about an event in history or about a person ...
hmmm, did that make sense?!!!

Bloodlife that is a delima and you are right, for the computer would have to give multiple choices and we would have to pick the right things, just blurbs,( war, flood, example)

so i think it would rely on humans for the prophies out come.

Apart from the obvious, ie, it being nonsense, why do you think prophecies are so very vague ?

There is the small matter of religious persecution which I daresay tended to curb those who may have wished to be clearer.

cadrewolf~

I get what you're saying. I kinda see it like a bookie would give odds on something happening. Statistics of the past are a great way to predict the future, but you still have to include the 'what if' factor.

Bloodlife~

That factor plays in every role in life, so yes you would.

cadrewolf-

I'm probably not being clear enough. Of course such machines need maintenance, but think of a current operating system on a computer. If nothing new is installed, and the physical parts are maintained, and the original programming is flawless (MAJOR "if"), the program could conceivably go on forever and not make a mistake. That's the point I was making.

I also said such a machine is beyond our capability at the moment. Just like true, self-replicating AI is beyond our capability. It is still possible though.


BLOODLIFE-

I think I already said that predictions made by such a machine couldn't be considered a true prophecy, because the event could be reasoned by following a distinct train of logic. A prophecy is a prediction that couldn't be reached using logic and evidence alone, and is therefore supernatural.

When we break down "feelings" and "compassion," we find that they are nothing more than hopelessly complicated series of neural firings. They're electrical signals, and as such are capable of being replicated by a computer.... someday.

Apart from the obvious, ie, it being nonsense, why do you think prophecies are so very vague ?(Sinora)

I lot of tales to say would come from this, many claim only to see glimpses in their mind which they have written down in no order.

yet once again humans interpet this from like bloodlife stated events of the past. As they history repeats itself and so we assume that it will happen, now add the prophecy, we have came to the conclusion this event happened. ie.

Chaos theory~ anything that will happen, will happen

Yes but this would go for anything that would proclaim the prophecy, whether man or machine.

i understand what you have been saying about computers, yet to me the interpitation will still be left up to the humans?

Well, there may be a difference in what we consider prophecy. As I understand it, a prophecy is a prediction of something that WILL happen, regardless of what we do to stop it. That's the biggest issue I have with the idea of free will and prophecies existing at the same time. If you know something is going to happen, but you can't avoid it, then you have no free will.

Anyway, that's why I don't believe that true prophecies exist, and is why the only "successful" prophecies are those that were so vague that the event couldn't be determined until after it had happened. Then someone looked at the ambiguous writing and said "hey! This is what that prophecy was saying! It came true!"

A machine could never be capable of true prophecy, if it even exists, because the source of said prophecy would have to be on a different plane of existence than reality. A machine is a physical and "real" object, and is forever separate from that supposed source.

La6Muerte66


Excellent last post and well stated, i do concur with all that has been said.

prophecies cannot I believe ever happen, for untill the event is already passed can we actually call the image a prophecy. No way to predict it before it happens........