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What is the general consensis on this thought?

Do you believe that if it does not interfear with anything within a Vampiric community, that its ok?

or

Should it be strictly forbidden on all accounts and in all aspects.

I would like to get personal opinions as well as communal opinions.

Thus far I have read a few (50/50) different views on this matter throuought the VR walls.

What's this vampire weekend? on vr? Am i behind?

Any substance that robs free agency, distorts perceptions, enslaves in addiction and provides false "escape" from reality is inherently dishonorable and betrays one's character, integrity, and is not only unwise but pointedly stupid. No true "vampire" would ever lower themselves and insult their own intelligence and self-esteem by ingesting or otherwise using such poisons.


- Upir'

Thankyou ~Upir~, and furthermore... Why the hell would a thread such as this come up in the first place...

DRUGS ARE WRONG PERIOD, in all of society. Those who would condone drugs are immoral within themselves. Those who use drugs should be forbidden and banned from any social gathering, be it "vampiric" or other.

Why would any creature want to send themselves willingly into a stupor of idiocy by taking drugs, with the exception of some cultures who do it for spiritual reason, I can't knock anyone's cultural beliefs.
DRUG ARE BAD period even some prescribed by doctors when abused.

to me, the whole thing is pointless. why would something that powerful really want to make themselves that weak?

wow. with all due respect, tis nice to see the war on drugs prevails throughout VR thus far.

Very powerful judgment calls being thrown around in here...

"such poisons"

"DRUGS ARE WRONG"

"stupor and idiocy"

What makes you think that the "sober" you is "real?" (just out of curiosity, I would genuinely like to know.)

What of the Shamans and other mystics that have used "drugs" for spiritual purposes?

These are sweeping generalisations of subjective opinion.

Of course before you bite my head off, do you now assume that I must be an advocate for drug usage?

I dont think the thread was refering to the "Shamanistic" ways of their peyote, cannibus or other herbal concotions.

I think it was relating to "hard" drugs, such as: Heroine, crack, cocaine, meth etc.

While the thread posters may be entitled to "opinion", in my perspective... The shamanistic use vs Hard drug facts should have been common sense to most adults, and should be used as reference for the younger generation rather then in an "accused" sense of portayal.

AlexandraAshes -

When one calls to task others for making "powerful judgment calls" in stating that narcotics (drugs) are "poisons" and that, as a result, it is indeed "stupid" to use such, would this not at least imply that such a person so opining is indeed an "advocate for drug usage"?

And just because primitive "shamen" from ignorant cultures use drugs does not at all provide any degree of a convincing argument that drugs provide any degree of actual benefit. And as drugs do not heighten the senses or improve our perceptions but instead distort both and inhibit rational thought, motor skills, decision-making ability, as well as handicapping greatly our ability to interpret accurately and respond as quickly and responsibly to external stimuli (e.g., operating a motor vehicle), why would anyone attempt to argue otherwise?


- Upir'

Drugs are labeled/viewed "bad" in the society/group you live therein. To say all drugs are bad is just, say: an ignorant way of putting it, I do believe the excess is detrimental for one self and you could be carried into another place you wouldn't like end up finding yourself, unless you didn't want to live in the "reality"(in one's casing), furtherlong nothing is wrong unless you make it wrong in your head; society doesn't dictate anything from personal settings just surface behavior that will label your convictions. As in regards of "the abuse" in vampiric society I don't see the difference in any "world".

In all casing i do not practice that "use" but i respect both side of the coin, and individuals tend to press their ideals to others by pointing the finger, as is a divine truth what they are stating.

Upir'

Aaaah, so what you are referring to is a particular type of drug, and usage...I am not sure how I overlooked this specific explanation in your original post.

And no, I am not an "advocate" of drugs, but it is either is one or the other right...either with you, or against you?

I think you should note, that the only judgment call I actually made was "These are sweeping generalisations of subjective opinion."

You seem very hasty to begin passionate debate. I have made no claims here, I simply posed questions.

I wouldnt call this a debate. A debate would be: Are drugs good or bad within a society.

This would be more or less, why the bloody hell would a vampire use a drug?

Thus would be ~Upir's~ point if I am permitted to defend such point with precision and technique.

( Continued from last post)

Oh, and the question should not be pointed toward ~upir~, but the thread poster themselves in regards to your question as to which type of drug is related.

AlexandraAshes -

Questions, Alexandra, are what spark debate, after all. Surely you were well aware of this prior to initiating your devil's-advocate queries here.

You asked questions regarding what you judged "sweeping generalizations," which questions I answered while also asking two questions of my own. Surely you do not begrudge me and others the same right to make interrogatives here as you claim for yourself.

Thus, permit me one final question of you: Is it not medically, scientifically and logically well proven that where drugs (narcotics) are concerned, such "sweeping" generalizations are indeed very well warranted?


- Upir'

-AA- Its simply impossible to broaden the "encased" in "spock mentality" about conditions of life in regards of the prejudice derived of divine "reasoning and authencity"of realization.

"Oh, and the question should not be pointed toward ~upir~, but the thread poster themselves in regards to your question as to which type of drug is related."

I responded to Upir', because he responded directly to me. There was no specified drug in the initial post.

"Questions, Alexandra, are what spark debate, after all. Surely you were well aware of this prior to initiating your devil's-advocate queries here.
You asked questions regarding what you judged "sweeping generalizations," which questions I answered while also asking two questions of my own. Surely you do not begrudge me and others the same right to make interrogatives here as you claim for yourself.
Thus, permit me one final question of you: Is it not medically, scientifically and logically well proven that where drugs (narcotics) are concerned, such "sweeping" generalizations are indeed very well warranted?
- Upir'"

Questions have another purpose also, that to seek an answer. If I have played devil's advocate it is merely to draw out more. From the extremely emotive responses, I did wonder if there was really any other angle there apart from "drugs are bad, boohoo"

As to your question, I do not think that "sweeping" generalisations are ever warranted. As far as (narcotics) are concerned, again this is a specific. This is NOT the all encompassing "drugs."

As far as your question and personal opinion on the matter, yes I can understand how one would draw this conclusion.

Another matter that I find interesting, and I reason I have persisted, I reiterate that in my initial post I made one judgment call and then questions. No where did I state my own subjective opinion on the matter, nor have I been asked. Because I query, obviously I am against?

Very touchy subject with obviously very touchy individuals in relation to the subject matter...

Thus it continues...

People tend to incline to the extremes; too "ignorant" to be seemed as primitive or too "logistical" to the extent of the soliloquy like robots, middle grounds could be rare in the act of judgement, then again all points are welcomed, to each their own perception, but when the personal settings tent to stream out of an opinion and start lecturing others its quite irritating as if the lecturer has a higher ground than everyone else, is simply arrogant; just my take...

I believe that two particular drugs cause more misery and societal cost than all other drugs put together. I refer to alcohol and tobacco. There are also drugs that are rarely abused, such as aspirin. And even narcotics are beneficial in cases of chronic pain.

If a vampire has a headache and aspirin would help, would that be bad? If a vampire gets stomach cancer and medical marijuana allows the vampire to eat, is that bad?

As for native American religions that have used peyote for centuries, I would suggest that others judge not lest they be judged themselves. One person's use might seem like abuse to another person, but I am sick of my tax dollars being urinated away on imprisoning people who are caught with the "wrong" drugs, whether or not they deem themselves to be vampires.

Now, now, Alexandra... you can't have it both ways. You can't come in with loaded questions that accuse others of making "judgments" based on "sweeping generalizations" and criticizing others for stating that drugs are poisons, futher concluding that all such are just "subjective opinion" (despite the mountains of medical and scientific evidences wholly to the contrary)... and then when called on this, step back, metaphorically bat your eyes, feign complete innocence and surprise at the debate you have deliberately incited and attempt to declare demurely that you were ... only asking questions.


- Upir'

LL -

Re: your statements against alcohol and tobacco... I fully and wholeheartedly agree. I have never used either and never would for the same reasons as previously given in my first post here.


- Upir'

Upir' I did only ask questions. That is what is so amusing about this.
I never claimed innocence however.

Are there any other discussion responses other then "childish" posts?

I think we can all agree that "DRUGS" are bad. Even when the individual uses any kind of "drug" for their excused ritualistic ways, they better have the responsibility to handle such "drugs" accordingly and not abuse the right given to them to use in any potentially threatening ways toward themselvse.

No one individual may claim the rite of the Shaman unless they have been through the intitiation ceremonies granted to them by their cultural elders. Other than that, the term "ritual" has been used a bit much and had almost lost its meaning over time... Save for those certain cultures who still treat certain things with a bit of decency and "respect" to boot.

Some of the respondants here could never have read Aldous Huxley, or liked the doors.
Such closed minds have no place anywhere, certainly not here.. they don't want debate, they want their opinion to be the only one. Geez, that's facism.

I would have answered the thread.. but as I say, the opinions of some stifle debate.

Further ~ the high-handed pompous manner of some of the respondansts here has me incandescant with rage ..
.. due to their lack of insight, tolerance, or knowledge.

As if someone like them has the right to preach to others! How nonsensical!

Thank you all for your responses. This is honestly, exactly what I expected to see happen.

Note that I never indicated which drug/drugs I was referring to purposefully.

But again, thank you all.

Also, I do not care how anybody perceives me after posting this thread. It was simply posted for discussion. Just goes to show how such a touchy subject can set off such intense personal opinions. Hopefully this thread continues and clears up back into general discussion and not what it has become.

Why would a vampie truly need drugs.. I mean honestly you cant get any bigger badder and more powerful then a vampire.. So why take drugs and if they did, would they works like they do on humans.

first off A Real Vampire would not need or use Drugs , as for it being right or wrong ? I think its wrong it impedes your ability to think and function straight , you have no Control over your self or anything or anyone, so why would a Vampire want to use Drugs as Control is there whole thing?

Recreation, and ritual use. The later is commonly abused as an excuse to use mind altering substances.

Having seen first hand the abuse of Meth in " circles".

As well as having witnessed proper ( read limited) use of hallucinagins.

I can only spectulate as to the matters that brought the poster to post this thread.

A drug user will utilize any loop hole to rationalize their use, they will shun
all those concerned with turning statements.

" Shaman use drugs, so what's the harm."

Allowing a loop hole to open in the reasoning of those around such substance users is assigning leverage to those who would potentially introduce others to their substance of choice under pretense perhaps of " ritual".

I understand that this post was made just to inspire conversation with no actual opinion, pro or con, voiced. I can respect that.

I would have entered in my own opinion to that actual topic at hand, but.....

The white horse opinions of some of the respondents to this thread are entirely too holier-than-thou to actually allow for any true conersation to occur here. Some of the opinions immediately stated here, more or less, condemned any possible pro responses and responders.

Leave it to a scant few closed minds to defile and kill a thread.

Good going guys

You are pro drug use?

Perhaps another thread could be started ( I remember one in the archives)
regarding distinctions between " ritual substances", and leisure use.

As that is the only flare-up fuel I see.

If I was a drug dealer, I would applaud the vagueries of some in this thread. I could cite this thread as leverage to get those stragglers on the issue to consider purchasing drugs from me, after all " What is the harm?"

If a person joins a group already using a substance that is one thing.

If a person joins a group that openly advocates a substances use. I would be suspect of such a group.

Even as a recreational user of Cannibus, I stay my ground.

As for writing off concerned posters as Holier-then Thou.. I say present your post because you are sounding very much the imbicile right now.

Correction of typo "imbecile"

Dabbler,

Were you asking me if I was pro drug use? Does that even pertain to this thread?

You're not seriously attacking me there are you, dabbler? I mean with the whole imbecile statement, that is.

Angelus -

While I feel strongly, given the evidences all around us both in society and as well documented by science and experience, that drugs (narcotics) are indeed poisons and one of the most destructive blights on modern society, yet to judge such a view as "pompous" and indicative of a "lack" of "tolerance" seems itself to be rather intolerant.

To further state that "Such closed minds have no place anywhere..." is most decidely intolerant and quite disturbing. However, to then go so far as to state that such "...has (you) incandescant with rage" is frankly indicative not only of quite extreme intolerance but also of a rather anti-social personality.

I hear drugs will do that, you know. ;)


- Upir'

Yes it does the poster seeks consensus.

Perhaps for the clarity of the thread specifiying the substance would be ideal.

or exclude beer, liquor, caffine, nicatine, and perhaps even cannibus.

Now then if I had a Social Collective I would hold a consensus that suggest
all drugs not be used during social functions. This directs attention to the ambiants that is the goal of the collective, if some wish to use substances then I would not want the collective to be an excuse to gather for the purpose of procuring, and distributing substances ( including Cannibus).

Any " sacremental substance" should have a very clear designated use.

No I am not, I state you are sounding imbecile ( meaning criminally neglegent.

Vespers are you refering to what is ritual use? Would the poster of the thread have specified ritual use, I can see how perhaps your post would have merit? An oppurtunity presents itself to you, to post a thread regarding the topic of substances used in practices, as opposed to recreation use in Collectives.

I am responding to what was said by "Upir", dabbler, and that is all.

So may I inquire, as too your persinal census to Collectives that allow overt drug use?

Vespers -

So my observation about the ignorance of primitive cultures was somehow interpreted by you to be... a racist statement? Wow! I am astounded by such illogic, truly.

Were you not aware that throughout history at some point or other various narcotics have been considered by ALL races, depending on the ignorance of the cultures concerned, to have been a good thing? As recently as the early 20th Century, cocaine was added to popular soft drinks (where do you think "Coca-Cola" got its name).

Apparently it is you who interpret the term "primitive" and "ignorance" with race, which neither I nor history, itself, ever does. That was a connection only you made, thus indicative not at all of any inherent racism on my part... but instead, on yours.


- Upir'

Out of respect for cultures that are very much still alive, we would do well to refrain from insulting them with accusations of ignorance and primitive behavior. What is sacred to some is not to all and the same can be said about every other person's opinion.

It seems to me that Vespers' intention is not solely to defend the use of drugs but the honor of shamans and traditions that are being spat on here.

Upir, these are tribes and groups of people who still exist today and perhaps though you have never met a person of this culture personally, it is no excuse to fling insults at other people's beliefs.

This thread concerns drug abuse in the Vampiric Society, let's stick to that subject and carry on without insulting anyone. Yes, it is possible to have a debate without insults.

Upir-

When you throw in terms such as "Shaman" with other terms such as "primitive", "culture", and "ignorant", it is NOT an illogical conclusion for someone to come to.

Especially considering there are STILL cultures with "Shaman" who do practice what you would consider to be "drug usage".

If you do not want it to be concluded that you are NOT making racist appearing statements, then watch the words that you choose.

"Apparently it is you who interpret the term "primitive" and "ignorance" with race, which neither I nor history, itself, ever does."

This is the MOST stupid statement I have ever read.

Are you not aware that the historical military leaders, such General Custer, who slaughtered countless Native Americans without reason, referred to us as Ignorant Savage Primitives?

Man, this is ridiculous. You must not read.

So Vesper, and Morrgon, with the aside.. aside. May I inquire as to your consesus on the topic of "Vampire Colectives".

Vespers -

Shamen (the correct plural form) do not belong to any particular race and there is nothing inherent in this term that would indicate race. Again... nice try at attempting to paint such a generic religious term in purely racist colors.

I notice that while you take such pains to condemn my usage of the term "shaman" (and I was not the first to do so here), yet you provide no logical argument nor empirical evidences that would vindicate medically or scientifically the usage of narcotics by adherents of religion, be such shamanistic or the "Church of Cannabis," for that matter.


- Upir'

If I have to say it again, the thread is closing.


I personally think it's interesting that the OP stated "Drug Use/Abuse and the Vampiric Society" yet most went straight to "Abuse".

There are many situations in which I have seen meditation performed both with and without the use of drugs in a peaceful manner which harmed no one. (Please, let's not include the "it harmed the person who did the drugs" argument. With everything ELSE we do to ourselves, a little puff puff is the least of our worries)

The general recreational "WOOH let's get high!" junk tends to get annoying and is what most often leads to abuse. There are people who do it right, and people who can't help but go wrong. I'm really riding the fence here heh.

Vespers -

The only thing ridiculous here is the extent to which your illogic is willing to go to see racism is everything and everyone around you.

Just because a racist uses the term "ignorant" to refer to those of another race most certainly does not make the WORD itself nor anyone who uses that word... a racist! Surely you are more intelligent and knowledgeable to truly believe this!

Your argument here in attempting so desperately to paint me a racist so as to attempt discrediting my views on narcotics (drugs) rather than provide actual evidences or arguments countering that position is only succeeding in painting yourself more and more as such.

Again, the term "primitive" is not inherently racist as there are primitive peoples of ALL races living everywhere from the Appalachian Mountains to trailer parks across this country. And there are illiterate and ignorant (un-educated or un-knowledgeable) people of all races living everywhere from "Whitebread," USA to "Cockneyville," England.

And NONE of this addresses the key issue here: whether or not drugs (narcotics) are a positive influence on "Vampires" (or Humans of ANY race).

Rather than continuing to attempt derailing this thread and having this topic closed down... would you please either address the topic discussion or else start your own thread on what does and does not constitute racism.


- Upir'

Upir-

You use the term "Shaman". And that term is usually associated with cultures that are mainly a minority (i.e. tribal and indigenous peoples).

You use this term while making a statement about how drug use is "bad" and a big "no no". You use this term in reference to cultures which are "ignorant" and "primitive".

Are you that stunted logically that you cannot see what you are actually saying?

I would hope not.

Also, I do not need to supply you with any evidence regarding your question, whatsoever. That, with you, would be utterly pointless.

AlexandraAshes used the term "shaman" here first and with no racist connotation at all. I responded within the context of her usage of same as an example of narcotics usage in religion ... of which the "shamanistic" was one example. And none of this had thing one to do with ... race.

Stick to the discussion topic at hand... please.


- Upir'

Then for benifit of that notation, a thread is begging to be started regarding
the ritual application if controled substances.

As I can bare witness to collectives that suffered emensely from relaxed, ambiguous, or no opinions at all on the overt drug use, eventually the only reason people are invited to such collectives is for drug related communion.

Rastafaria is one religion that uses cannibus as a sacrament, mushrooms, and peyote are used in some practices as well. But to lose context on the need to address potential elicit undermining of a collective society ( regardless of their banner) is important. The poster of this thread could be intimidated by a member who uses, or wants others to expirinent with drugs.

You are right, she didn't.

However, you did use it with racist connotations. And it is THAT of which I find reprehensible.

Like most racist statement making people, you are bullheaded, and unmovable, and unwilling to take responsibility for your statements, which perpetuates more racism.

I stick with my quote:

“Racism is a refuge for the ignorant. It seeks to divide and to destroy. It is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out.”
~Pierre Berton

I am through with you. The statements you have made color you terribly enough.

It only fogs the issue to lump " Sacrement" in with no real say on other uses.

To neglect the issue is to lend leverage to those who would pressure others to use, or allow the use of drugs in their presence.

It's against Dark Network forum rules to ridicule the philosophical tenants of any religion... and frankly, that's what is happening here with ridiculing people that belong to a sect that happen to use various substances in their rituals. Calling them ignorant and primitive is a definite ridicule.

Disagree with drug use all you want, but please steer away from the insults upon spiritual rituals.

imagesinwords -

If you are truly going to interpret what constitutes offending religion this narrowly, then by such limited parameters as you have herewith established, all forum topics debating belief and superstition (all someone's religious tenets [I think you meant this word] and, thus, of possible offense to any and all) must likewise be immediately shut down and their posters reprimanded.

This topic was about drug usage and whether or not such is recommended in Vampire culture. As we know both medically and scientifically that drugs (narcotics) do not enhance the senses but, instead, actually impair them, then such ought to be permitted discussion and debate in the forum... even should someone choose to ask regarding certain religions' usage of same, which usage predated our knowledge of what narcotics do, thus indicating that such religions were, indeed, ignorant of these facts... which is simply a fact that ought not to cause offense except to those who are too reactionary to logically consider those facts.


However, your words point out a far more troubling question.

Do we truly wish to nurture and cultivate an environment on VR so hostile to facts that any discussion, no matter how unrelated to religion it might be (such as this one), must be immediately shut down the moment anyone claims a belief to something entirely unsupported by the evidence and then over-reacts and claims offense?

For example: If a discussion is raised as to what causes thunder... should such be immediately halted the moment someone claims a religious belief that thunder is caused by the Gods bowling in the clouds (this was actually believed in Nordic cultures who were then ignorant [there's that "racist" word again, right?] of what actually caused thunder)?

In other words, should such a declaration of religious belief force an end to any and all further discussion so as not to OFFEND the stated belief?

Is this truly where VR is headed?

Do we truly want a site where belief is always mandated to trump a discussion of facts and evidences, where religion is always declared superior to science... where ignorance and superstition is given preferential (not equal) treatment over knowledge and Reason?

If so... then any and every discussion topic in this forum becomes not only irrelevant but, in fact, in violation of your rules, imagesinwords, if this is how narrowly you choose to interpret them.


- Upir'

Sorry folks... but someone doesn't know when to say when. Mine and Morrigon's requests were ignored.