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From Religion, to Metaphysics, and the Occult, some are moderates, others are fanatical, or fundamentalist.


Churches are factioned by such varing degrees of beliefs. Not all who subscribe to occult teaching accept claims of physical manifest "power". Not all who believe in Christianity believe in faith healers.

The line being faith, and conviction.


Is faith enough? Why

Are demonstrations, and experiences "a must" believe?


What is superficial, and what is sufficent?

Faith is something in you believe in. You believe in something/someone like you believe you can do something.

Demonstrations and experiences are different things altogether. Demonstrations are commercials that tug on the heart strings whereas experiences are things that have happened to individuals.

There are things in this world that are superficial and sufficient but it varies on each persons definitions, thoughts and feelings of both words.

Perhaps calling it an "idea" instead of belief might be better, you can change an idea but it gets tricky changing a belief....for this very reason many have died throughout history.

If I am not mistaken Faith means to believe without having proofs, so I'd say, some people choose to believe without looking for proves.

Others would like to see because they are aware of people who are fake and want only business or fame.

I would say it takes a combination of acquired knowledge, facts, experiences (self), and the ability to think things/issues through carefully before jumping to Conviction of anything.

This thread seems to have taken itself into the realm of the value systems of many religions. By examining that we also must look at the value systems of the individuals that make up the "congregation" or "avowed members" of the religion. Stormy waters ahead but here goes.

First, a critical distinction must be made for me between "faith" and "hope". Faith is defined in Webster's in 4 different ways. 1) allegiance to duty or a person; 2) belief and trust in God [Webster's capital letter G not mine]; 3) complete trust; 4) a system of religious beliefs.

Hope, on the other hand, is defined in Webster's in 2 ways. After the synonyms TRUST, RELIANCE are offered as definition 1, there is the following; 2) desire accompanied by expectation of fulfillment.

My opinion is that these two words are often muddled together by many religions so that members of those religions see them as the same.

It should be noted that the Apostle Paul wrote in one of his letters to the early christian churches [and I am paraphrasing here] "faith, hope and love; these three abide; but the greatest of these is love" If hope and faith are the same, why would Paul make a distinction?

Faith for the believer is absolute trust in his or her god with the knowledge, outwardly professed at least to be CERTAIN, that their god is looking out for them and their fellow adherents to the "one true faith". This is the example of the second definition in Websters.

Where it might sometimes begin to go haywire is when the "joy, happiness, bliss' felt by the adherents in and to this faith becomes an overwhelming need to pass this "faith" on to those who are not and do not wish to be adherents of their "faith". Those are called evangelicals and they proudly wear that label. Then, for some religions, when they realize that not only are there people out there that don't want to share their "faith" they don't want to even talk to them, they decide to go to some soldier's funerals and decry the US for being a haven for unbelievers and "allowing" homosexuals, witches, vampires, pagans, and anyone else they can think of that they don't like to exist in this country. That is exactly what I said. They protest our right to EXIST.

Another way "faith" can go wrong is when the first definition from Websters overrules the second definition. "Allegiance to a person" occurs when, for whatever reason, someone falls under the spell of another person in such a way that they have pledged absolute fidelity and loyalty to that person. For the "religious" among us, that person then replaces their god as far as directing their life is concerned. In religious cults this type of leader often decides where they will live, how much money they must pay to the church, who they will marry, when and with whom they will have children.

Hope, on the other hand is the desire that things will happen in a certain way and living one's life in reliance that someday it will happen the way that we hope. Not that we must act to change things around us to MAKE it happen. It is an individual desire. For the religious, hope keeps them going even if events around them make them think that it might not turn out like they want. They pray or sacrifice to their god with the hope that things will change but the hopeful does not decide to make the change happen themselves. If we did not have hope how could we get up in the morning and get through the day. There are so many things in our lives that we have no control over. Faith, makes us angry about it; hope keeps us sane.

But remember, like the Apostle Paul said, between the three [faith, hope and love] the greatest of these is love.

food4thought

Talk is superficial, faith is sufficient, at least to a fundementalist, I think. With so many religious denominations in the world (some 40,000, I believe), its no wonder everyone is running in different directions. In this multi-demensional, multi-faceted day its impossible to absorb the many different degrees of hope, belief, faith, conviction any one individual possesses, whether it be occultic or simple religiousity. Each generation stands on the previous generations shoulders and perpetuates and adds to their belief, to the point, I think, of a bizzare reserved fanatacism. I've actually witnessed one man stabbing another to death in an argument over Jesus, their actions an oxymoronic display if ever there was one-Jesus is about peace and unity and turning the other cheek, not about murdering another human being in the wake of some senseless and useless argumentation. So is that fanatacism or conviction? The killer argued that his "convictions" were being violated, and of course the dead man had no rap at all-suffice to say he was probably not overjoyed that he had actually had to die for his beliefs...Anyway, hope says "One day I am going to be happy" while faith says "I already am". That of course, is just my opinion. Religion is too touchy a subject to discuss anywhere, as is occult affiliations, and I hope some insufferable twit (fanatic) doesn't come along to bash me for what I've said.

Those who are firm and mature in their convictions don't subject themselves to arguments about the beliefs of others; they simply go about their business-live and let live. Fanatics kill you if you don't agree with what they believe. We've all seen it.

Well stated Cooly

Religion, belief, and even politics are often often adopted as a pretense for bigotry.

belief is a personal choice.

What one feels comfortable with.

I don't have to have something proven to believe

in what faith I chose.

faith hope does it really matter seems like if you have one you have the other but thats just me

What is notable to me is when people seek to validate their beliefs through others. As mentioned above Evangelic.

When they take personal offense when someone is not intersted in their claimed experiences.

Certainly everyone is entitiled to their beliefs, but no one is required to be concerned with what others believe.

I often see more believers intent on convincing others of personal experiences then sharing their basic beliefs.

I am very faith based. I believe in God more then anything in my life. Do I believe in Christianity... No.. Nor do I believe in Organized religion. I believe everyone's faith should be their own. Not everyone can believe the exact same thing, have the exact amount of faith, have the exact amount of strength and speak the same way. The human mind and human emotions are to strong to work that way. As well as everyone's brain being wired differently. Some people don't have the capacity for such belief. Where others do. Just as there are people that don't have the emotion of "love" such a common knowledge for most people is totally unknown in some people's emotion's and completely in their state of mind. You and I can believe in the Same God, but who is to say my meaning and strength in my belief is the same as yours.. Just as who is to stay we both see the color purple but what you see as purple I see as green...
Your reality could be my fiction.. No mind works the same, so no degree of belief can be the same. If our minds all ticked the same then we would have over a billion Einsteins and Mozart's.

Degrees of Belief
Posted: 05:04:53 - Nov 10 2009
Times viewed: 90

"If I am not mistaken Faith means to believe without having proofs, so I'd say, some people choose to believe without looking for proves.

Others would like to see because they are aware of people who are fake and want only business or fame."




I have faith in myself, and believe that I am a Good mother, friend, lover, ect. Does that mean that I have no proof in myself in any area that I have faith in?
Think about it that way..

thank you 13

you clearly demonstrate the personal asspect of faith, the very practical, and applicable Faith!

its just a matter of what you believe and or dont. if you believe in something without empirical evidence it requires faith. different people have different amounts of faith.
some people can believe in a god or gods...some can believe in faith healing...some believe in magic, or vampires, etc.

its simply a matter of ones own faith.
i figure as long as the person isnt hurting me or someone else directly, im not going to openly criticize anothers beliefs.
~W~

Thank you :) Thats very kind of you to say.. : )
Though you do not have to thank me.. Its just my way of viewing things :)

But I do hope to of shed new light on the conversation. That's always a nice thing do to :)
I like making people think lol.

my point was, that you demonstrate a consistent degree of faith in your post.

So many want everyone to not only accept them for their beliefs ( which is an irrational expectation) they want everyone to be enthusastic about their every claimed experience.


Note; I say accept them for their beliefs is irrational, this does not include or condone bigotry.

No matter how " open minded" a person wants to think they are, they will reject any number of beliefs, or philosophies. So it is logistically impossible to believe everything, and to accept every belief, especially since some crack pit fabricates a new idealism every week.

So very true. :)
If someone states they are "open minded and accept everyone and everything, every belief ect"
is simply lying or misunderstanding their words a great deal.
I am open minded yes, but i am for animal rights, therefor to me sacrifice of an animal for religious reasons is just wrong..
But I do believe to each their own and will pretty much keep my mouth shut. Just because I believe in something doesn't make it real for everyone. We all have our own sense of reality and normality

I spent a lot of time with spiritualists and I had a hard time with the spiritual end of the approach. I am an enquriing mind. Then all of these books came out stating that belief in God or a power greater than man, was hardwired into the brain. To me it was implying it was all in my head, lol. I have a book somewhere about it but never read it. I think faith, hope, love have different names because they are different. I always wondered how one could be called blinded by faith. It's sort of seemed like an oxymoron to me. Faith requires no proof, therefore most don't want to question their faith.

I think it is a very personal thing. I don't believe in organized religion really yet I have three ordinations and I don't quote verses because I have felt it was going overboard and as I got older they were hard to remember anyway. I also had other ideas outside of one faith. I remember concepts better. Some of this deals with background. I notice people straying away from whatever spiritual teachings that were forced on them by their parents. When I was young I would have been afraid to offend my parents. It was the nature of the time period. I didn't though because I was lucky enough that nothing was really forced on me.

I really don't know why some people have certain types of belief to the point of zealousness and others don't. It's like I wonder why some like certain foods and others don't. Everyone believes in something including those that say they don't because that is a belief too.

Look at Crowley, he came from a very religious background where he was abused. He left it and sort of rebelled and went totally the other direction. I think life experiences very often form what we inevitably believe and to what degree.

Look at Crowley, he came from a very religious background where he was abused. He left it and sort of rebelled and went totally the other direction. I think many times it is life experiences, good or bad, that set into motion how you will believe.

Examples of Faith:

There will be an end time and the forces of light will war with the forceses of darkenss.

Jesus will return to earth and take the selected with him to heaven before the end time.

Examples of Hope:

I would really like it if people with different beliefs would accept others and be tolerant of those who do not agree with them.

I trust that the majority of scientists studying global warming are right and we have not yet reached the tipping point where the earth turns into the planet Venus.

I will rely on humanity's good sense and timing to force the rulers of our earthly world to begin the steps needed to reverse or at least slow the present pace of climate change so that generations of humans after us have an environment in which they can survive.

food4thought

Faith to me is belief in myself as a person. It doesn't involve spirituality, occults, religion, etc. Faith is seeing myself as a person and knowing what I can and can't do.

Fanatics to me are people that haven't learned to look at themselves and just understand who they are. They want to bury themselves in something, to run away, because maybe they aren't mature enough to look themselves in the eye and just be. Fanatics are maybe just weaker than us, too willing to give themselves and their minds up to something or someone else because they are too afraid to stand up and be an individual.

Thank you Lorax,

Your such a consistent person, a clear indicator of an individual with a sound concept of their faith.

Well it took me a long time to reach this stage in my life. To realise that I am an individual and I should honour that by seeing myself as I am and that I control every aspect of myself and that is a gift I should never give away to anyone.

The degrees in my beliefs in anything of the "paranormal" nature are constantly evolving according to what I learn on a daily basis.Meanwhile, maintaining strong beliefs in a few core areas,such as how I want to conduct myself ideally,what I teach,and how I treat my children,and how I treat others in general.. things along that line.Those kind of beliefs will never change .
My belief in a higher concisness are pretty much based on faith and the things I have experienced that support that faith and personal need for something to be there ,as opposed to anything I have learned or have been told by someone elses perception of any religion.

Degrees of belief would be based on knowledge or understanding levels of certain aspects, religion, myth science, for not all know everything so levels based on inner belief structure .

Just for clarity Cadre, ' myth science'?

Dang phone sorry dabbler

Myth, science. two different words.