The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

I wanted to express a few things of which I have observed and I have an opinion to that I feel very strongly about. Over the last couple weeks I have participated in a few threads. The names and the content of them needn't be worried about. Often however I have taken a controversial stand in them.

I don't believe at any time I have subjected those of whom I didn't agree with to any flaming or bashing. We debated and went back and forth on viewpoints of which we differed in. I thought that was great and I would actually love to see more of that kind of thing go on. Sometime I look at the top folder or in general any folder and I see people starting threads that I feel in my perhaps biased and unfair opinion that these topics were designed for the explicit agreement of the masses to post to. They didn't want anyone to offer a differing idea which would contest or challenge the premise of their original stance.

Because I or others did so however there might be some that would view these posts we made as flames. I find that disheartening. The top folder particularly will have topics that would make for an excellent discussion. Discussions often involve differing opinions and even debates. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I think it helps elevate the understanding of both sides regardless of what side they are on. We have some incredibly bright folks in VR, but too many times threads are left ignored and unspoken into simply because they don't wish to be seen as creating Drama by having a conflicting but equally viable stance.

I am at a loss as to how to create a more suitable environment for better discussions to take place. I am also at a loss as to how to help people understand that if I don't agree with them it doesn't make me a troll or show that I am flaming them.

I admit I have high standards for the discussion I want to participate in. I want to be challenged and I don't want my eyes to bleed from the sheer lack of literary ability that some folks force everyone else to. If we want better discussions especially in the top folder I really think that some of these things I have suggested ought to be looked into.

There was a time long ago that I too participated in many more threads and debates...but I got tired of being freaked out at for giving my mind....in a thread claiming to be a debate.....youre right of course....most people don't want debate...most want to give their view on things and have others back that up....
especially if it is a questionable view to begin with.....
but I no longer care if people think I am flaming them or not...if someone is being a fool I tell them..if they are intelligent and concise I also tell them
normally I place you in the latter group,
but the worst ones are those who as soon as you give a point against theirs..get irate and indignant like it is a personal attack....it is an opinion
but ya...thats why i'm not see in the forums as much these days

I don't mind so much that people might get upset that I don't agree with them. People have strong opinions and those that are well thought out and are challenged it comes as a shock.

However this shouldn't make them lose sight of the discussion and simply either insist that the person that contested with the original theme is flaming them or that they are trolling in any manner.

I would rather debate someone who is passionate about their views than someone that just puts up a post in order to cash in on the post count that they need in order to get to the next level.

I say let the strong opinions and emotions come out but be channelled into a constructive table for which an understanding of advancement can be built on.

You said it all.
It takes maturity and common sense to be able to politelly disagree, and to debate without getting mad.
I agree that the flaming and the tantrums come from not being able to see the other part's side - that's an inability to discuss and debate, and the single ability to impose a point of view: That takes the meaning out of the discussion forum...

I've had the pleasure of taking part in a few of these types of debates. I agree that disagreement is healthy, but also see your point that some would rather not have those views challenged. This can move on to the flaming you speak of..but I don't feel that those outside of the argument are often qualified to judge the content offered up by, shall we say, opposing parties. Sometimes those just stepping in miss the underlying context.

I myself, while recognizing that I can become caustic at times, do not believe I have ever given something that wasn't deserved or in a round about way asked for. I think that's what you have to watch out for..the sly comment here and there..the seemingly harmless addition that in reality is used as a thorn to stick in your eye. I see this happen all the time, and in the event that they are called out on it..they back peddle and insist that they've done nothing of the sort. In fact, it would seem that you are the one called the flame-giver at this point.

This type of sleight of hand is almost always concealed in supplemental material, aside from the alleged facts. I think this is the cause of most flaming or supposed flaming..disagreement on context, or pure stubbornness. The fact is though, that this type of sidestepping is hard to pin down by someone just coming in. So, if you dare to defend yourself..you are almost always greeted by being called "power hungry" or generally unarguable. If not by the one you are arguing with, those who turn a blind eye whe stepping in because they would rather things be quiet. I agree that it is better to meet at the line if you can, but it isn't always the right or mature thing to do. Most times I see it, it's just the easy thing to do.

I have, in the past, allowed my vigor to turn to contempt. Sometimes, all of this comes into good play. The biggest injustice in these discussions I think..is that people are, as you mentioned, afraid of confrontation. The other group of bad apples, those who refuse to acknowledge that the confrontation exists at all. These are just a few of the things I have noticed myself..hope it was relevant. Nice thread.

- D

Debates of any form will always cause some form of disruption, there are always going to be that 1 person you manage to offend no matter how carefully you tread.

See? This one is a good exmple of what discussion and debating means. Good job!
I believe that as long as you don`t use coarse language or directly attack another member of the VR or try cause them problems, anything can be said, as lon as it is a intelligible phrase and not various words put toghether just to see them on the monitor.
"Power hunger" I think it is a phrase used by those who are afraid of members with higher rankings or attributes, even premium members , people who fear that having little responsability and no way to control how others might treat you, they might get in trouble for posting something in contradictory with one of the "poer hunger" people.(although I`ve heard of few such actions, some of them being unresonable).
If you remain in the limits of common sense, post almost intelligent phrases, you have no reason to call for argue, flame and other stuff like that from other members.

A post becomes flamming the way you post your ideas not causey ou disagree.

I saw it ass well.

You disagree with someone,they tell you to sod off and attack you personally cause you disagreed with them.

That's why I don't make threads often.

I don't mind that someone disagrees with me,but I don't tolerate to be attacked.

What's the point in making a discussion and have everyone agree with you?

It's not fun but some do it for popularity and see everyone saying in chorus:

I agree!!!*turn the applauds button on*!!!

Therefore I'll stand up and say:I agree with you:)

Trouble, you're right, some people are going to get mad no matter what, but I think that's more theit own personal issue than one that 8everyone else* should tiptoe around.

As long as the discussions/debates remain productive then I see no problem. The key is to debate the issue and not insult the person. Most people can see this difference - those who can't shouldn't ruin it for everyone else.

I don't know how the Dominar's rules read - but removing A post that clearly has no place in the thread, or is highly inflammatory is much more preferrable than watching an intelligent discussion degenerate into an all out war.

Granted, they aren't always around but we can all act like adults.. even if some of us aren't yet adults.

Exactly.

But some just because you disagree with them they take it as a personal or start calling you names.

Infact most of the time it's not the topic which is offensive but the persons debating cause hey can't cope with a mature discussion.

whats troll? never heard of that term before cept the given;)

but anyways....youll always have people who want to start things they know will cause an uproar or get proplr tp start...argueing among each other because we are made up of so many different religions and view points.

just be glad that there is people like you hear who like to discuss instead of creating drama

I remeber back in the day when the forum was debates, conversations, joking and getting along.

I used to post all the times on the forum. Talking about opinions, learning what others thought and felt, and seeing sides no matter which side they are on.

It was always fun to see the different views of people on VR. Especially when topics were discussable. I have seen very intelligent debats and conversations go back and for. I miss those days.

I also miss the days when debating didn't being drama because someone thinks a topic or even a conversation is attacking them. And even the dreaded the conversation is bout me, it has undertones of me. Grow up, get rid of your guilty conscience, not everything is about you.


The forums used to be filled with intelligence, passion, knowledge, admirable stands, and even great opinions.

Now alot of the time it is meerly I agree or I disagree. Not getting into what they believe or what their views on the topic/situation is.

I miss the way the intelligence,debates and dicussions flowed freely.

I love to debate and discuss. It's what makes things interesting and enjoyable.

'To troll' means to attract attention by either boasting around or acting childish. As by nature, trolls don't have much brains. Therefore they rarely say something useful or productive.

What is a troll?

The traditional definition of a troll refers to a member of a community or usenet group who makes posts deliberately designed to attract responses of outrage or indignation. It is the troll's intent to "hook" unsuspecting members into responding, (hence the term "trolling"), thus providing him/her self with the satisfaction of knowing they have impact on others.



What is a Troll

Ok,
The is a great difference between academic discussions and witty personal attacks to people's intelligence.
Those attacks are considered flaming and are not allowed on Vampire Rave.

I believe a good academic discussion is protecting your point of view with facts and not with verbal abuse.


This happens often, people deviate from the academic discussion and make it personal. If you are having these kinds of trouble I think it best for people to just stop, think, and take it into Private Messages to further support your point. This in some cases might be a bad idea, but nonetheless, I do not think the public masses should be exposed to such retaliations...it leads to public embarrasment on both parties...and its just not nice.

I also agree with moonie. Back in the day, here in VR people were able to be open and see other's views for what they were. We went back and forth and educated ourselves and expanded our views to a wider spectrum...We did not batter ourselves and if we had problems we took it to the PMs.
It does seem, now, that people are not being open to others opinions...
Stop and smell the roses, maybe what you think was right for a while...isn't. Someone else might come along, with another view, and educate you on the manner....give you facts that are stable and educated, not just flimsy facts you read off the net that might not be in fact durable or supported by other sources.

Sometimes, it is better, to just read, listen....give your opinion and move on. Also, being corrected is not a bad thing. I would rather be corrected by someone who knows their material then live my life in ignorance.

I think people in general confuse academic discussions by taking offense to others who do not agree with their points of views.

I also have taken an unpopular stance in a thread and been rebuked. Many do not know how to have a good debate, and too many of the threads are specifically designed to keep other ideas from showing. Even in a thread I started, an open-ended question, other members found it meet to quash the discussion of ideas other than their own. But such is the price of free speech.

Wow, this was a fantastic thread - and have nothing intelligent to say except I feel the same way ya'll have already with this topic.

Well said Batchyld dear ;)

DB as always you are a point of rationality and sanity in a world gone horribly awry....
hehe
looking back on the last year and a half here....I know I have flamed a time or two...but i'f I recall it was in response to the same...and I tried to at least do it with flair and style....hehe
I know...still not allowed...I don't even mind someone insulting me/my intellect/family/friends/etc....as long as they do it creatively and with some style....hehe
I do still prefer a good debate tho
and yes..we used to have some damn fine ones in here....like DB's zombie thread....that one was good, long, and intelligent

LOL Daermon. Thank you!
Those were the days.

My opinions is this:

If you have something to say, and you truly believe it to be true, then say it, get it out, and move on.

When it goes to the point where an individual bashes another individual because their way of thinking deviates from their own, that is when it turns into flaming and trouble.

Part of debating is realizing there are more than one sides to every story, and not only are you trying to make your point clear, you are also trying to find out if perhaps there is another part to the story you have not fully realized before now.

A man who walks into a debate thinking he knows it all, and never expects to learn anything from it usually doesnt. You have to understand that no one person knows it all, and the best way to find out more on a topic is to ask others of equal, greater, or even lesser experience on the topic.

I am still somewhat new to the Rave, but since I have been here, I have increased my knowledge of the vampire and supernatural world. Reading books and finding more information about vampirism is something I enjoy. What I enjoy more than that is debating the information I find with my friends. When we debate, we don't come at each other with malice or ill feelings. We respect each others opinions. It will ensure further debates, which means more informations to absorb. I will never censor anyone, unless they present their information to me in poor taste. If I ever hurt someones feelings with not agreeing with one of their opinions or lifestyles, then they need to grow a backbone and get over it. Not everyone will always agree. Present more facts and knowledge to counteract mine. What we can do is be professional to one another. Be civil. Respect me and I will respect you back.

I saw people attacking each other and I suggested to take it in private?

Did they listen to me?

No.

Some people simply like to flame others to show how much ''right'' and ''intelligent'' they are -_-

It is hard to have a debate with people who for one, do not have either their own view to begin with becuse of lazy thinking or are too lazy to do the proper research in the first place. Far too many must c/p everything they find on some dumbass website and then add, 'so what do you think.' Thought to anything is very lacking on most posts.

lol yeah I see a lot of the pasting of information that isn't really your own. I mean I don't mind it so much if the piece that was taken elsewhere was in quotations and then a point of view was given on it in their own words. But a lot of people try to take what someone else wrote and then play it off like it is theirs. You see this in some of the journals too, but if they want to delude themselves in their private place that is fine for them I guess.

I think though that on those pieces that people clearly have done this kind of thing. Go ahead and if you want to speak about it, ask them about it. Have them answer questions in relation to a discussion you want to have. Make them work for it and reread the pieces that they supposedly know so much about. Either it will teach them to educate themselves before posting something or it will embarrass them enough not to do it anymore. Either way I see that as a win win.