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A contemplation on existance.

In every forum I have read thus far. I have found members who claim to drink blood, shape shift, be decendance of demons and even gods. I have also seen some of the same members claim to be nothing more than human. This led me to a pondering question.

If something changes its nature throught the shear force of will. Does it change the definition of what it was in the first place? I guess an example would go along the lines of (and this is just an example of the thought behind the question), " If a Lion chose through shear force of will to go from being a carnivorus predator to eating grass." Would it still by definition of nature be a Lion?

Or does it change its Definition and become something else?

Does this change also apply to humans as well? If by shear force of Will one decides to go from being a mear human to doing what many consider the impossible. Does that Person then Change its Definition by the Change of its Nature and become the Impossible?

Deep question. Assuming you could change, I'd say no. Your character would remain the same, but muted. That is presuming that the creature were of a nature that was capable of intelligent thought and thus will. Instinct is not will, IMO. It is hardwired into a creature, such as with the proverbial lion mentioned. Humans are capable of higher conscience or deeper thought so would be capable of changing thier nature (i.e. I need to quit tobacco products)...

Just my .02

right, ill try not to contridict my self here, In your example you say a lion if it choose to eat grass insted of meat would that change its definition? No, it would not, even though the lion is eating grass it is still preceved as a meat eater, and thus just because one eats grass its not going to change the definition for the whole species.

As for humans just because one claims something, doesnt mean its true, if that was the case, everyone would claim to be god or the impossible etc etc.
change is a concept that most of us go through and just because we do change, the majoirty of the time it doesnt change who we are inside, "most people hide behind a mask, sooner or later, that mask shatters, revealing the true person you really are."

Good points. But I am not talking about changing the definition of the entire spiecies. Nor am I talking about the masks we wear. Humans change habits on a regular basis, yes. But I am talking about your nature as defined by what you are. Does the perverbial boy raised by wolves remain human or is it a wolf? People claim grandious things about themselves all the time. But what happens when one believes so strong in what they are that they cease to be what they were and become what they want?
Magick is worked through will. We use our will to make change in the existance of physics. The ice example was close to what I was thinking. What if water were sentient? And through shear force of itsown will turned tself into steam. Is it still water? Or is it air? I don't claim to be anything other than a Carnivore. Do I see myself as Human? I would say no. Do I act as others act? Sometimes. Is my Definition defined by my Nature or is my Nature Defined by my Will?

I dont think its the person or thing that truly changes because clearly it was in them all along they just never saw it in themself before, I think what does change is the label that their society will choose to put on them.

But could any creature have such a Will strong enough to go against its Programed Nature to change so drastically that the rest of its counterparts nolonger see it as what it was born as, but what it chose to be?

Mankind is thus far probably one of the only creatures that can go against nature...but if I may quote Love and Rockets...

"You cannot go against nature
Because when you do
Go against nature
is part of nature too"

What we call Nature is only what we perceive to be the way things should be...Nature might very well be something completely shocking to the ecosystem or to the evolution of a species but still very natural. Cancer kills itself by killing it's host...that's not very natural...or is it?

Interesting point Felix. Yet Humans do the same thing. We kill ourselves by killing our planet. Is that natural? Or are we really just another form of Cancer?

Changes so drastically that OTHERS see it as something else? Seems rather doubtful to me. But changing so the individual sees themselves as something else, that's pretty common.

Oni,

I am intrigued with your question. I would have to say yes. IF one applies the right methods to change then one has become changed.

If you walk a path that leads you to transform yourself you are a sum of your experiences. You have then become the resulting creation of bits that has resulted from the things you encountered.

You then lose who you were. But if you become, in order to grow to something, you are still you, your likes, dislikes, these are who you are. What you are becomes the lens through which you allow others to view you.

Is iron still iron when it has been forged into carbon steel?

So true is a will that has endured fires and trials to become greater then what they were?

Your path determines who and what you are. Some will always know you as human, weak, and childish, others will be brought to fear or passion by your presence. It is up to you, if you become for better or worse.

If a murderer repents, stops killing people, and by force of will, never kills a person again, does he cease to be a murderer?

I respect you alot with this question.
I find it quite incompetant that someone would claim to be a vampire.
You can have "vampiric" attributes, but your still in human form.

So in turn, a lion trained to eat grass is still a lion because it still retains its form.
There is no biological change in DNA or any such way. If it is trained, then it may happen.
BUT
It is still a lion.

I meant the lion is trained.
Not the DNA...

But what if you could change the DNA? then what?

If you can change it, then you would have a whole different animal.

I doubt man has been able to make newer hybrid lions yet though dahling.

Cloning yes, but thats just a copy of the same DNA.

If you do gene therapy to cure cancer, why couldn't you do gene therapy to become something else? so long as the cells can reform and adapt what has already been designed from a non singular cell state of being.

Instead of working from the egg up the body where you only manipulate one strand of DNA, if you could preform gene therapy on the entire body of a thing to change it, to stimulate some aspects over the others, then why would you not be able to become a vampire if thats what the change led to?

Darwins theory of evolution - he realized in his work the Origin of Species that animals did not change from generation to generation if there was a missing apendage. Like a dog who had 3 legs because one was removed that gave birth to a puppy with 4 legs....there was something that caused it to be born with all four legs. Thus we have the foundations for DNA research.

However, if you take a man, subjected him to radiation, and electromagnetic pulses, and harmonic changes that stimulated the conditions for the needed changes then would you not have a vampire? But it would still be the same man personality wise only the body would have changed.

All in all hun, unless you can prove that a lion isnt a lion, then I have my own opinion :)

There areways to change one's form and its called mutation and an evolutionary state.

But we have not go there yet and "vampirism" is not a mutation, its called Hematomia and sometimes it causes one to thirst for blood.

No more, no less. It is an attribute.

But what is it in a lion that makes it a lion? what in essence makes it so? its just hair, meat, bones, blood, teeth, its just another thing that lives and dies, is it a lion because that sound we use to describe it for being such?

What when removed from something would that something become something else?

Vampirism would be a mutation. If it is a change in the energetic, or physical body that allows for the processing of energy then that is a mutation. Just as your combined dna from both your mother, and father is a mutation that came together in its form to create your body, hair color, eye color, bone structure, blood etc....that is a mutation, all of it is one mutation after another.

So who are you to say that vampirism isn't a mutation when it is a change of perception? it is a change of the essence of a man to make it a beast? to make it immortal? it is still in the form of a man, it can act like one, behave like one? then what is a man if we continue this line of thought?

We exist because of our perceptions. If we change our perceptions we change how we are percieved by others. As all things are related, so to in essence it can be changed.

This is a presocratic argument on essence. It is not one that can be answered one way or another. I support that if you change the DNA, you change the form and body, you subject the spirit to things that provide function of will to become a certain way. Then you can change the whole being. What is body, mind, soul, to something that is desired.

Ah...Infernalmage. We see eye to eye. Are we more than just the genetic components? Is Genetics what makes us Human? Or can we change our being through will to become more than what we are born as? Channel our will. Our own mythology is littered with people whos very will caused others to see them as more than just average human beings. Hercules, Achillies, Gehngis Khan, Vlad Tepish. All men who's shear force of Will caused the rest of the world to see them as being more than just ordinary men. Some called them gods in flesh. Some called them demons. But it still remains that they changed thier Nature and the world saw them different. How far can this change go? Could it cause cellular mutation aswell? Could Will change Genetic Coding?

Is it still a Lion? YES.

Is it still a carnivorous lion? NO.

You can change the definition to an extent, but will NEVER change the name. Not unless it's a hybrid of some sort between two species.

Oni..

if we couldn't change those key aspects in ourselves, then we wouldn't be able to do the things we do with other materials.

dirt, lime into concrete
Iron into steel
tin and brass into bronze

bread, yeast, water, heat = bread

You would have to have both a will directed through a focus, and through science. As the most advanced magick will always resemble science.

You can change it, if you have the will to do so.

If you are on the verge of death, your mind becomes aware enough to force the change. If you focus on something that you know, if its vampirism, and you have become as so rooted in it, then you should be able to become it, then you should surmount your own death when it is time.

as a man thinks there for he is ..

we see are selfs in a sane state or insane state if we think we are a potted plant we are a potted plant...

Fan

The argument of sanity in a conversation like this is a fallacy of reason. You cannot argue the state of mind from the perception of sane or not.

You can argue willed change over percieved change, but you have no footing if you bring in belief unsupported, or sane. Because if you have the perception of something you see as being insane, then it falls outside your realm of understanding.

It falls into a realm where to the one who is, they are because you say so. Who are you to say what is right for them?

When changes like this are discussed, it is a scientific proof that must support or disprove this as well as a philosophical inquiry into the nature of both.

Sane or Insane have no place.

Infernal...

Again I agree.

Fanman...

I am not asking about self preception. I am asking Will alone is strong enough to cause the preception of others to see you differently. You may look in a mirror and see potted plant, but could you change you nature so drastically that strangers see you as a potted plant?

Infernal, you speak quite a bit in philisophical terms, but you have to be logical.
Humans are not vampires because there is no such "being"
A vampire is a somewhat glamour term for a mutation in which one is sensitive to sunlight and craves blood ---hence hematomia.

Now the other Vampire attributes are all oxidized through Hollywood.

So tell me what a Vampire is in YOUR terms and we'll start more slice and dice from there. :)

So Oni,

the question then comes, by what method is such willed change possible?

bio-kenetic manipulation?
bio-thaumaturcial alchemic modification?
mediation?
or more of the above?

If it is not possible is is because we currently lack the energy and the will to test such ideas on living things. There is only so much that can be tested on plants and chimps before it requires a human test.

Lovecraft...

Lets stay away from the personal belief of what is what. I am wanting to discuss possibility of energy manipulation through force of will in order to preform personal modification.

Infernal...

What stops one from testing on oneself? Visualization is the begining of energy manipulation. Could one use thier will to manipulate there own energy through visualization to cause physical change on the cellular level?

I would from my own expereinces say yes.

Inviting further discussion on this comes as personal level. However I will refer you at this point to other sources such as those of Luciferianism where the aim is to mutate the body into an extension of Ahriman.

Chaos magick and the rites of the Octarine where they blend the seven bodies of the mage into a mutated god/man.

It does effect the cellular level, Dr Emoto has proven that thoughs effect things, even just by them being thoughts.

Thank you for your hospitality then Oni.

Infernal...

Interesting. I shall have to look into that.

Anyone else care to share thier ideas on the manipulation of matter through force of will?

Schrödinger's Lion is both... until someone contests what he thinks he is, at which point he is changed by the observation.

All things are changed with observation, unless it is percieved with no judgement... at which point it is capable of being what it wills itself to be according to it's most influential previous programming.

Humans of course have free will and are somewhat more capable of choosing to disobey design parameters.

Lovecraft

I cannot answer your question. I do not have a clear definition as to what is a vampire, any more then i have an idea of what is human. IF i knew what made a human then I would subject it to expirements and tests to pick it apart to see how it ticks then subject it to currents that cause it to mutate into an immortal being who sustains itself by feeding directly off the pranic currents of others, because it has advanced beyond being able to survive off the dead energy found in cooked meats or fruits.

Lovecraft...

Please by all means. I love to hear about all angles. Even medical science has to have a say on matter manipulation through energy. After all Science and Magick generally flow in the same direction, just down different rivers. Both lead to the ocean.

Well there was no need for incompetence, but I get to where your driving Oni.

Now with the shapeshifting, I would have to input as to where people got any evidence of this...

Kg

Very true. Though at times, i wish there was no box, or Lion in this case as it may be.

Lovecraft...

You have a point.

Oni, if I may, where did you get this idea of shapeshifting I'm curious.

What do you mean by shapeshifting?

Focused cellular mutations to achieve desired ends are possible by the form that the body established. You merely manipulate the function of what is inside if you seek something like vampirism. (increase strength, better vision, regeneration to an extent) What is in the full capacity of the human form, however not remaining genetically human, but a mutated version of one. Is it something else, or is it still human? If you can define what human means, then mutated into what it had become within its means

You can transform lead into gold, but you cannot transmute the lead into a radish, Both are still metals,

I have seen something when i was younger, a friend of mine at the time shifted the form of an asphalt rock into an orange. It tasted like asphalt, and sank in the creek like asphalt but was in form an orange, in weight was identical to the rock. This was no slight of hand either.


But the shifting physically into a wolf or moose or what have you isn't something that would be possible with this, as it requires the body to preform beyond its genome cabaility unless there was such DNA grafted into the system if it was to survive, as nothing can be made without something to work from,

"Re: Animal-Vegtable-Mineral?
Posted: 18:53:01 - Sep 13 2007
Times viewed: 89

If you can change it, then you would have a whole different animal.

I doubt man has been able to make newer hybrid lions yet though dahling.

Cloning yes, but thats just a copy of the same DNA. "


Have you heard of genetic engineering, we've been changing the dna of things for decades now.

I think that if the lion were to eat only grass and stuff that it would still be a lion at first but then after years and years evolution would take place and it would probably become something similar but entirely different.

I am not sure if the same things applies to humans but this is an interesting questions so I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

Your right I have never thought of that does every thing change about you when you are turned that deep man and sencible at the same time.

I have never experienced being able to change. If you do I believ it would make you something else all together

very instreasting, where did you get the idea for this question

This web site is like any other site. You can type anything with no proof involved

Coughcool...

No where did I ask for proof in this thread. I am asking a philysophical question about a metaphyiscal idea. A friend of mine explained it like this.

A christianized big bang. God spoke and BANG it was. God created the world and all of existance by shear force of Will alone. All things we know exist because God Wills it to. And Humans being extensions of Gods essence share not only his likness but his spirit aswell. So the question is can Man sharing Gods Spirit and Will be able to effect matter with the same Force of will as his own?

And for those of you bringing up cloning and cellular mutation and genetic splicing. I am not talking about using an external catalist inorder to change cellular growth, but an internal one.

at the base we are all the same, all mineral, who because 2 line: animal and vegetal, the humans are only part of the animal speciaes.

Taoist meditation and practices are what I refer to when I bring up the manipulation of the genetic structure. By force of will. Force of will will only go so far in the whole thing to finalize and wrap the transformation. But there needs to be a chemical catalyst.

I see. But why? Just about everything we use as a catalyst already exists inside the human body in one form or another. Could that not be unlocked and energized through meditation and visual focusing of will aswell?

Yes but to do that, you would have to have a focus. a circle, or something on which you focus, that relates to what it is you attempt to awaken. If the mind has a focus, then it will be pulled into alignment with the desire.

I think a lion is a lion no matter what, if it stoped eating meat and ate only grass it would still be a lion, just like if a person is an american and moves to china he is still american, you can change things about yourself but it does not change who you are...

Amazing how many people just dont grasp the meaning of the question.

If a lion stopped eating meat and started to eat grass, it would cease to be a lion. It's called evolution. For example, when a family of squirrels got separated, they changed to a point that they are all different species but they belong to the same family of squirrels. The lion would be something new but it would remain in the larger family of lions.

The lion does not have human`s power.The superior human knowledge is an immense power.Lions don`t produce the nuclear bomb...LOL
1.The modern physics explained that all the matter is wave.NOt just the sounds... everything is just made from waves....Well, there is the God`s creation> with a word > a sound.
2.The science of logic teach us a basic principle: one thing can be identical only with himself: A=id A
A=id B ....ONLY if "B" is another name of "A"
3.The christians pretend to purify during the eucharist (sacrament): drinking the wine(metaph. blood of Christ) the true believer can regenerate all the body cells that can be regenerated normally but with a greater higher sped.Practically he regenerates all his body except the neuronal system.
4.These practice have strong bonds with the spagiric alchemy where the chemical experiment of the "trans-substantiation" (if I may call it so) is succesfull only with the mental concentration of the alchemist.
5.These practice also are bound by some yoga techniques that can mentain the body of the yogin young (black hair at 80,increased vitality, visual acuity).
6.a man is still a man if he`s dead?When is a man dead?when he doesn`t breathe anymore?
Some indian mages can stay without breath hours... even days.
7.not all the things have logical explanation but that doesn`t make them unnatural."what is the sound of the applause with a single hand?"
In conclusion :
A man can change shape-shift without changing his appearance.
It`s not important that he becomes or not something else.this is just a label.The modern science is still a child.

Well, lions are set up by nature to be lions....if something were to change in their enviorment, they would either have to adapt or go extinct.

I think the sheer will to change something , is more for the human end of the animal world, as their imaginations are usually working full throttle either for or against them at any givin time. The idea to," think ones way", into actually "being", "something", one is not is hard for me to believe. More over it is wishful thinking and prehaps playing the part. For most , especially disfunctional people, they tell themselves something long enough they begin to believe it......thus taking on the "role", in such cases they are eluded to reality.

Oh, the lion would definitely still be the lion. it's just a thing of diet. although, perhaps that new diet could dramatically change the lion. ehh, probably only ill health though.

a human though. is not going to stop being human just because it wishes with all its might to be a vampire or..... if it wants sooo soo bad to be a wolf.
unless that is, that the human has some.... thiiiiiiiing beforehand which lets it change into a wolf. or something.

gah. so hard to explain.