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Genetic Zombies?
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PoeticHeart
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16:54:37 Dec 05 2011
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My psych teacher made the statement the other day that heredity is not destiny. We were discussing (or rather, he lectured) on genetics and the role that plays in the human psychology. To clarify his point, he was arguing against psychobiologists who would state that our behavior is a product of our genome. He was saying that if we are completely controlled by our genome then we have no free will.

I must disagree with his statement. Generally speaking, heredity is destiny. We now know that if you have the right genetic combination, you will get schizophrenia. Now medicines can combat the effects of schizophrenia, but non the less, you were destined to get it. And, if you can prove a statement wrong once, it is false. So there you have it.

My question to you is, how do you feel about this particular subject? Do you believe we are just mindless zombies to our genetics or do you believe we have free will in our behavior?




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DAVYDENKO
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23:21:04 Dec 05 2011
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When ever I hear something like this I am always reminded of one particular story: The scorpion and the Frog;


Scorpion had lived on the East side of the river valley for his entire life, and as he reached his second year, he asked himself what might await on the other side. Now as we all know, scorpions are unable to swim…

Scorpion approached the bank of the river with dismay, seeing no easy way to cross the river. He searched up and down, but the rainy season had left the river bed far too high for any exposed rock to act as a bridge. Scorpion considered crafting a makeshift raft, but we are all too aware of scorpions’ carpentry skills.

Alas, his plight seemed all but hopeless until he happened upon a lonely frog sitting calmly by the river. Scorpion approached carefully, so as not to frighten the frog, but scorpions are a fearful creature after all and the frog withdrew into the water.

Scorpion yelled to the frog, “Frog, I am Scorpion and I would like to cross the river, but I cannot swim! Can I hop on your back and ride across?”

The frog responded suspiciously, “But you are a scorpion? How am I to know that you will not just sting me?”

Scorpion thought hard about how he could prove his innocence to the frog. Perhaps some logic would do the trick! “My dear frog, if I were to sting you, I would be left in the middle of the river to drown, for as you know, I cannot swim!”

Scorpion’s words were enough to convince the frog, so he agreed to ferry Scorpion across the river. The frog swam to the bank and allowed Scorpion to climb atop his back. Scorpion’s claws dug into the frog’s back, but the frog was still one to help his fellow animal.

As the frog began swimming across the river, he considered whether this would be the start of a lifelong friendship between him and Scorpion. He wondered if Scorpion might return the favor by scaring away the stork on the West bank, who always troubled him so.

Just as the frog’s mind was wondering, he felt a sharp pain in his back. He quickly began to feel his limbs going numb and his swimming began to slow. He cried out to Scorpion, “Why have you stung me Scorpion? Now we are both going to drown here in the river!”

Scorpion replied simply, “Frog, I stung you because it is my nature.”




But that isn't just the only story.

If you are familiar with the story of Lucifer and the Fallen Angels.

According to the story, Lucifer was found as an infant during the war in heaven(s)

He was taken by the "Good Angels" and raised as one of them. As he grew his "light" or his intelligence grew as well, but it was a questioning nature that proceeded fourth from his intelligence. Supposedly Angels did not question "Why" they simply did what had to be done.
Lucifer did not agree with the creation of Man because man was given the gift of Will, something which the Angels did not have. But Lucifer could not bring himself to "Bow" to man since man was created "inferior", so he felt, and he Lucifer was a being of light.

Does this remind anyone of Star Wars yet ? You know the constant questions asked by Anakim and his personal battle which raged inside of him to be himself.

So Lucifer would not bow to Man or acknowledge man as a far greater creation. So Lucifer approached Adam and learned that will was the ability to question and in particular to say "NO"
So Lucifer in learning this began preaching among angels, many who accepted his teachings of Will. For this, for his rebelliousness he and those angels who sided with him were cast from the heavens.

The point being, he Lucifer, was simply following his nature. The nature of HIS people, and not the ways of the other race(s) of beings that did not question.

It was all a part of his Make Up, his genetics.



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Tzaddi
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03:23:41 Dec 06 2011
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Given, genetics plays a big role on how we turn out, with an illness, defornity, ect. But we all have free will. Some may be smarter in some area's than others. Some will be better at things than others. Some have a high IQ, some do not. All of this is genetic. What we do with it IS our free will.



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Hesperus
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03:40:34 Dec 06 2011
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We cannot rightly deny that our genetics play a significant role in our development and that it colors much, if not all, of our lives from the moment of conception onward. Along with other mechanistic factors (physics, our interactions with others who are themselves behaving deterministically, etc.), one could well make a solid and logical argument for a deterministic universe. However, this does not necessarily negate or even weaken the concept of free will. What are you doing, after all, in a body with that genetic code? Science has yet to isolate what philosophy refers to as the soul or the spirit (as differentiated from matter), but there that is precisely why it cannot be discounted. We have yet to prove the absence of the soul. There are gray areas in science, things that our mechanistic understanding of the universe simply has yet to account for. Perhaps it will in time, but in the meantime, it is just as possible that we are spiritual being inhabiting or at least controlling our physical forms according to our free will.



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Severus
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08:08:45 Dec 06 2011
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The idea that your genetics make up who you are is accurate but only up to a certain point. What we are talking about is your physical make up and not your development as a human being.
Just like a person who is born blind is not likely going to grow up and become a taxi driver, genetics can limit or even help your future development as an individual but it doesn't define that development with an level of permanency either.

Genetics and a persons over all destiny are about as closely related as your personality and your hair color are... Your genes are simply a working component of a greater whole.



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Annunaki
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01:18:03 Dec 27 2011
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I cannot and wont tell you what to think on this matter or any other for that; but here is one possible and i would think the most inclusive understanding of behaviour on a theoretical level.

I am going to refer to a psychological and in some cases sociological theory called social constructionism, but i am also going to be combining the theory with my own research on another. This being the idea of Environmental Sensitivity Genes, ( from now on referred to as ESG).

Ok so social constructionism is a theory that suggests human behaviour (and indeed any species i suppose) create, shape and change their reality and behaviour based on four concepts.

It is important for the understanding of this theory to consider the human condition as being in a state of constant flux and forever changing and developing.

You also need to understand that the four component i am about to highlight not only have a singular importance but also support and work together in combination.

Cultural Specificity:
Behaviour, reality and identity are shaped and change as a product of the cultural norms and values of the culture we are raised and live in. ( this changes for many over a life time as norms and values are added and subtracted as influneced in part by your culture.)

Historical Specificity:
Behaviour, reality and identity are shaped and changed in part due to historical impact, this is to say everything that came before has an impact on that which proceeds it, culture, technology, environment and so on and so forth.

Social process:
Behaviour, reality and identity are shaped and changed in part due to social interactions with others and environments, this also takes in to account the first two concepts.

Social action:
These are the structural actions taken or not taken as a result of the previous three concepts.


Ok now providing you are still with me and have decided to read this far i will now introduce ESG's.
ESG'S are genes that are specifically triggered by the social environment in which an individual finds themselves.

So i would therefore suggest that individual differences in human behaviour and identity are a combining result of both ESG biological factors and the social constructionist theory.

I have kind of done this as basic as i can so it may not be that clear, Vivien Burr wrote a book called social constructionism which i am sure you can get in pdf form if anyone would like to research it further.

It is now late so i may have become less coherent, so my apologies for that.



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FatherJP
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04:10:32 Dec 27 2011
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Absolutely not. I do not follow science or believe in its theology. I am a Spiritualist and believe everything alive has a Spirit and that is what we essentially are. We are not controlled by anything unless we let it control us...



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FelisMagna
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04:31:07 Dec 27 2011
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You have to remember that genetics are a form of chance with astronomical odds as to having a certain trait or not with limitations. I think that it is a combination of free will and destiny... it made more sense in my head and still does, I just don't know how to explain it.



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LacyLashes
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11:33:31 Dec 27 2011
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I believe that certain aspects are certainly controlled by our genes, others by our social surroundings, and others by our personal will. I would not personally call it destiny, or predestination, insomuch as I would describe it as 'probable outcome influenced by genetic and social circumstances and made unique by individual will.'

In some facets we are controlled, to an extent, by our physical limitations. I do believe we possess the capability to move beyond those limitations under certain circumstances, usually due to the focus of our will.

On other occasions we may experience personal reactions that are a direct result of our social experience. Once again, I believe we have the capability to actively change our reactions by utilizing will, with focused and heightened awareness of our own responses.

Will is a powerful thing. It is more than an inherent possession, it is something that is developed or weakened depending upon its known value to the individual. If will is held with value, if there is understanding of how applying it can help one move beyond obstacles and answer challenges, will can 'move mountains' for us.

That would be my opinion on the topic.



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Fallenstar
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11:37:17 Dec 27 2011
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One often hears about this "moving mountains". Let me know how it goes...



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LacyLashes
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11:42:08 Dec 27 2011
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I certainly did not mean in a literal sense, hence the quotes, but I have seen the process make massive changes within my own life when I set about putting the process to work.

I used to feel completely defeated by many things, and now I look back and laugh at myself for even viewing those things as obstacles.

I suppose it's all about how you look at it.



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Annunaki
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16:17:22 Dec 27 2011
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FatherJP I do agree with you that that we may be energy forms. However, i would like to offer you the view that you should never completely disregard any argument that is founded in logic and plausibly explained. It is limiting to close yourself off to alternative explanations.
Stems growth in my opinion.

Of course that is just one way of looking at it, i hope that you consider my thought there. ^_^



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PoeticHeart
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04:16:11 Dec 29 2011
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But what if the stimuli around us make our bodies go through some type of biological processes which would push our minds toward a certain behavior? I mean if you are being chased by a cheetah your mind and body are going to scream to run because you detected danger and your adrenaline levels shot up.

Just a thought of mine.



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PoeticHeart
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04:20:22 Dec 29 2011
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I will say that I view this as an eclectic type thing. I think this whole idea draws from many different areas.

For instance, babies are naturally shy or outgoing. They have had little social interaction that would push them in one direction or the other so it must be strongly genetic, so we can say that genetics can play a part in our personality.

But it is strongly documented that sociopathic behavior is largely in part due to their environment, with a genetic inclination toward being a sociopath. So our environment also plays a part in our behavior/personality.

In the end, I believe we have free will in most areas, but some things are just "prepackaged" into us if you will.



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vampirekitty01
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01:18:41 Dec 30 2011
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There was a professor that visited my college about a month ago that talked about how zombies can be almost completely possible minus the flesh eating and dead part. Everything else: stumbling, confusion, groaning, constantly eating, slow brain, etc. can be explained medically. It was neat.

http://www.ngcsuthesaint.com/2011/11/prepare-for-the-zombie-apocalypse/

I wrote the article explaining the highlights of his lecture.



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•  Closed by Vampirewitch39 on Jan 29 2012  •

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