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*Wiccans Fight Judge's Order *
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thebatt
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09:03:06 May 27 2005
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a friend of mine sent this to me, and the story is so wild, i had to pass it on.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050527/ap_on_re_us/wiccans_divorce_order




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outgoing
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09:46:30 May 27 2005
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wow very interesting i would appeal this ruling. to a higher court



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Triad
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10:12:50 May 27 2005
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Yeah, that's really stiff.
I'd be fighting it, what ever my religion was.
If america's is all for the freedom of speech and freedom of beliefs thing, then isn't that technically violating the consitution¿¿¿
I'm an Aussie so I'm only guessing.



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lenoresprettycorpse
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13:45:43 May 27 2005
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wow... damn i would really fight that one. thats just wow i dont know what to say to that....



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Khayman
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13:57:49 May 27 2005
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INDIANAPOLIS - A Wiccan activist and his ex-wife are challenging a court's order that they must protect their 9-year-old son from what it calls their "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."


The Indiana Civil Liberties Union has appealed the stipulation written into the couple's divorce order, saying it is unconstitutionally vague because it does not define mainstream religion.

Thomas Jones, a Wiccan activist who has coordinated Pagan Pride Day in Indianapolis for six years, said he and his ex-wife, Tammy Bristol, were stunned by the order. Neither parent has taken their son to any Wiccan rituals since it was issued, he said.

"We both had an instant resolve to challenge it. We could not accept it," Jones said Thursday. "I'm afraid I'll lose my son if I let him around when I practice my religion."

A court commissioner wrote the unusual order after a routine report by the court's Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau noted that both Jones and his ex-wife are pagans who send their son, Archer, to a Catholic elementary school.

In the order, the parents were "directed to take such steps as are needed to shelter Archer from involvement and observation of these non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals." The judge let the wording stand.

The order has been criticized by various religious and advocacy groups.

Barry Lynn, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said judges cannot substitute their religious judgment for that of parents in regard to the upbringing of children.

"This is an absurd result, because in the eyes of the law being a pagan should be no different from being a Presbyterian," he said.

Wiccans contend their religion is becoming more mainstream. The parents' appeal says there were about 1 million pagans worldwide in 2002, more than the numbers who practice Sikhism, Taoism and other established religions in the United States.

Wiccans consider themselves witches, pagans or neo-pagans, and say their religion is based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons.

"There continues to be misunderstanding and prejudice and discrimination, not only against Wicca but against any religion that is not centered on monotheism," said the Rev. Elena Fox, high priestess and senior minister of Circle Sanctuary, a Wiccan church and pagan resource center near Madison, Wis.

The head of a conservative Christian group also sided with the Wiccans.

"The parents have the right to raise their child in that faith, just as I have the right to raise my child in the Christian faith," said Micah Clark, executive director of the American Family Association of Indiana.



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Khayman
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14:01:39 May 27 2005
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I hate finding a really good title to a thread and then having to go find the damned article that is the topic of discussion. :)

No offense, bub. :-D



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Epitaph
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15:29:59 May 27 2005
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Ok i dont see anyharm coming towards the child. So how in the world can a court do such a thing just cause of the parents practices.



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romman
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15:35:46 May 27 2005
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good thread



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Khayman
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15:54:24 May 27 2005
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Theyre in middle america, sugar... land o Fat-back, tornados and "good God-fearin' men and women".

Which I always thought a strange phrase...



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daygona
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15:59:20 May 27 2005
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Isnt there "laws" or something of that nature that says there is a 'seperation' of church and state? That what this judge said is not only unconstituional but actually illegal? There is nothing anywhere that says ANYONE can make you (or not make you) follow a certain religion. If that was the case no one would have there choise of religion. I'd fight this tooth and nail!!!!



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Khayman
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16:03:51 May 27 2005
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Article or Amendment 1.. note thirteen:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



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daygona
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16:06:41 May 27 2005
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thanks Khayman, I knew it was written some place, somewhere, some how on something. (hehe)



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Khayman
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16:13:03 May 27 2005
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Try The Constitution of the United States of America, honey ;)



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daygona
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16:19:19 May 27 2005
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I dont read much on that kind of stuff, but I do know my rights in general. If I were these people I would be having fit's all the way to a good lawyer. It's hard to believe that people in this day and age are subject to crap like this and actually have to now 'fight' for there given rights. It's just unbelieveable.



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CorazonMuerto
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17:11:44 May 27 2005
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hehe ok this is whats going to happen. the defense attorney is going to challenge wicca to be a religion that believes in sacrifice and so on and blah blah blah and stress this part "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble" which is weak because i haven't heard of any sacrifice or un peaceful gathering from that religion not that i know of. and the boy is nine for god sakes its about time he starts learning on his own and make his choice i say expose him to both... as he grows then he can choose for himself.



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CassandraMeloncoly
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17:16:22 May 27 2005
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well if that ever happened to me i know i would fight it all the way i hate the government for what they do to religions.

the first amenment states freedom of religon

why the hell cant they just follow that the government is just wrong and doesnt know when they should step in and when to just leave shit alone



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oblyvia
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17:19:14 May 27 2005
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The problem is getting the American Supreme Court to rule Wicca a religion. As far as I know, it is considered a cult in the U.S.



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SimpLesLyDeAd
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17:22:03 May 27 2005
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i would take it to a higher court...
very interesting though..



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Khayman
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18:01:57 May 27 2005
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"The problem is getting the American Supreme Court to rule Wicca a religion. As far as I know, it is considered a cult in the U.S. "

Oblyvia: Wicca is a Federally recognized religion.

Just reassuring.... :-D



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LifeIsKillingMe
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18:26:44 May 27 2005
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I thought we weren't allowed to talk about religion here...heh. :P



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Khayman
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18:31:12 May 27 2005
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we're not.


there's just no Admin's lookin at it :)



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oblyvia
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18:35:11 May 27 2005
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Well, if it considered a religion in the U.S. as it is here in Canada, there should be no issue. The American government really needs to pull its head out of its ass.



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PixieMoon
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18:47:00 May 27 2005
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Technically, we're not; we're talkin' about a stupid decision based upon an illegitament cause for disrupting this family's life. At 9, he's old enough and smart enough to make his own damn opinion about many things...hell, 'my' almost 7 yr old is that smart. All it is is the courts coming up with some dumbass reason to get their 15 minutes of fame. Apparently, this jus happens to be the flavor of the month.

I guess I've said my peace for now; I'm almost positive Nala will want to comment on this too, right Khay?



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Khayman
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18:52:03 May 27 2005
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Im sure itll start with a good WTF?!?!?

rofl



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Nightvision
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19:05:18 May 27 2005
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Read that bat, ya know what? That took nerve to issue a court order like that. In a country where we are all supposed to have the right to practice any religion.. weird. The kid is in catholic school too? sigh hope I never get any kind of order like that...well, it would be nice to be filthy rich..... wondering off looking through bently catalogs.......



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PixieMoon
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19:38:38 May 27 2005
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LMFAO...actually, she's been sayin' "what the duece?!?" lately. Still cracks me up.



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HAWK2K
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20:07:00 May 27 2005
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I can't believe that today we are still suffering the same persecutions Wiccans did in the colonial times. I thought people were finally accepting other peoples beliefs.

I'm a Wiccan high priest and I can't go a day without someone coming up to me and asking what my pentagram means or what Wicca is. But now I see that we still have to go a long way for tolerence from some people.

It's a shame.......



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ShadowWolf766
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16:24:00 May 30 2005
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Truely this will be a case that will be a dividing factor in all of interests.
What the judge did is wrong and could be considered illegal, if the case is done right.



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bloodyroses
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17:26:19 May 30 2005
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wow that sucks...what a stupid ass fucking judge.....they have the right to raise their kid as they please..



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HowlingWolf
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00:18:35 May 31 2005
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its wrong to decide things like that. it reminds me vaguely of the fight for homosexual rights



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MistressofBeltainne
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00:31:33 May 31 2005
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This actually made me sad. I hate when people are closed minded and believe how they grew up or how they live their life is the better way and everyone else should follow that way...



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Daermon
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00:49:46 May 31 2005
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K lets go over the religion rule in forums again for those who don't read system messages......
no CHRISTIAN topics.....and it has nothing to do with the site being goth or any other such inane reason....it has to do with the fact that every time one started people got stupid and insulting in their posts....that is the only reason it was disallowed......people were being rude about it AFTER cancer asked for people to calm it down.....
sorry to have to second guess you on this one khay...but it annoys me that it gets mentioned any time there is a religious based post
on to the topic tho....since when has something being unconstitutional ever stopped the us courts from pushing it anyways.....especially in the bible belt...
don't beleive me....ask almost any muslim in the states if they feel protected by freedom of religion laws



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poisonkitty13
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03:21:08 May 31 2005
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That's one of the most fucked up things I've ever seen. They have no right...
::growling::



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blacktear
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05:46:09 May 31 2005
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wat is wrong with them??>>??



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oblyvia
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05:55:12 May 31 2005
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Meow Daermon, I love it when you get angry!



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Daermon
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06:32:09 May 31 2005
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that wasn't angry....angry is thinking what the fuck these redneck psycho christian judges are doing forcing their religious system down the throats of people who are just following threir own faith......religion is a personal matter......and NO judge has the right to interfere.....obviously these people are giving their child the option of choosing a faith for themselves...they have him in a damn catholic school......if that is not open minded and accepting of the idea he may not agree with wiccan ways i don't know what the fuck is....I think these judges forget that they were the largest contributors in the persecutions and witch burnings.....the majority burnt were burnt by order of the secular courts.....with only recommendation from the church.....
I think that judge deserves to be disbarred...or whatever the term is for fired from practice...
or at least be forced to take a course on the laws as pertaining to religious rights to prove he has any clue on the subject!



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CherryXkiss
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08:07:31 May 31 2005
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There is no harm coming towards that child. I can't fucking believe that people are so closed minded... GRRRRRRR!!!!



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Daermon
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22:33:40 May 31 2005
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was speaking to someone I know in the legal community today and mentioned this....she is a christian...and yet she was outraged that this judge would give such presumption.....she said that were she in the states instead of canada she would be putting in formal complaint against him herself....



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oblyvia
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23:02:02 May 31 2005
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Rawr! See, I knew I could get it out of you.....hehehe



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Daermon
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23:08:23 May 31 2005
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heheh
ya but it was simmering just below the surface anyways.....like a festering boil



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Angelpie
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01:14:11 Jun 01 2005
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What the judge did was atrocious. Unfuckingbelieveble. That man should step down.



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Angelique1985
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05:25:57 Jun 01 2005
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I believe that our justices system is messed up anyways



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blacktear
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05:40:41 Jun 01 2005
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of course it is this is the 21st centry every thing is done half ass here



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05:45:36 Jun 01 2005
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This doesn't so much violate the rule against topics concerning Christianity, but it does however violate the rule against topics concerning politics.

I think this one deserves to be let by. It's pretty disgusting how much of the original basis of this country's government is ignored anymore.



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missdecemberfalls
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01:32:31 Jul 18 2005
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i have strong feelings that if you believe enough in your religon you should be aloud to share it with your children, as long as it doesnt affect them in a bad way, it helps your child be more open to other things and not so close minded like most teens and adults today



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ForeverNight
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06:27:04 Jul 20 2005
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thats unconstatutional and that makes the ruleing void they actually can ignore it and if anything happens can fight it in court and win. the usa goverment can't stop anyone of any age from practicing any reliion without any acceptions



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Daermon
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09:03:48 Jul 20 2005
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thanks whoever dragged this back from oblivion....this was a good one to keep going a while...I was looking for an update on this news clip...but could not find one....I did realise one fundamental flaw in the US justice system tho.....
their judges are elected...not simply hired...this makes it an easily corrupted system....as then popular opinion has the ability to take precedence over factual law...since they are trying to impress their voter base.....
but now i've brought it more political...which I know is a no no....
oops



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Aleks
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09:13:36 Jul 20 2005
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Uhm .. we don't have that law thingie here ... they teach xtianity in schools and grade us on it . So , like it or not , you learn the xtian bible and beliefs . :| Hell , fighting it could even get you exorcised in smaller villages ... and that's not a pretty picture .



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Daermon
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02:44:14 Jul 21 2005
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agreed......personally I know many christians..having been raised in it....and a large majority are truly good people.....
I disagree with their thoughts on the divine...but most accept me for who I am also....but I have also met a few fundamental extremists....not fun....not at all...painful even....
but by and large they are actually good ppl...
hmmm the courts....well....I like what they represent....and i'll leave it at that before the vitriol starts spewing



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Olwen
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08:21:56 Jul 21 2005
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I cant read it! the link wont work *cries*



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Khayman
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14:49:02 Jul 21 2005
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Hence the reason I posted the article directly after it, honey....
/:)

Pay attention :)



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NecroMonger
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05:25:55 Jul 22 2005
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It shouldnt have to be fought, but that is where society has brought us, so unfortunatly yes it must be fought.



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AnightsShadow
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05:59:28 Jul 22 2005
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It is protected by the constitution, they cant do shit



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xRobin3x
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08:40:39 Jul 22 2005
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is just amazing just how the goverment
at times just suck..... ^_^



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Khayman
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14:17:16 Jul 22 2005
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AnightsShadow:

Technically, they can. If the courts feel something in the PRACTICING/RITUAL of the religion can physically or mentally harm the boy (i.e.- chemicals or herbs used in ritual)... than they can remove him from the home.

It's unnerving and frustrating that the state would allow it, but if there is a proven, founded concern for the boys safety in ANY manner, he can be removed from ANY home.
Unfortunately, this Judge has made it APPALINGLY clear that the reasoning behind this action was simply the religion itself. Though on paperwork? It may be other reasoning.





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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by Nicnivian on Aug 05 2005  •

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