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This is a crowd of people - many of who believe in otherworldy things, the power of magic, mind control, and new agey schtuff... tell me, how far does any of this go, and how does it stand up to good old 'science'? Do our thoughts, vibes, prayers, and energy make any difference at all to say- a hurricane that is just going to go where it will due to natural air pressure and weather facts and truths systematically arranged, showing the operation of general, natural law?

Of course I am not trying to say forget hope and prayers, things are just going to happen. But isn't there a time when we just have to accept the laws of nature?

Hi Clandinstine,

I don't believe that prayers, hope etc would be able to affect something as big and powerfull as a hurrican but perhaps will power can affect small things which will help with the effects. After all, it's people power that pulls together supplies to deal with the aftermaths of storms, organise first aid & rescue as well as plan for the future.

If we seek a level of control over anything such as a hurricane, science is the only thing which has ever demonstrated any ability to lead us to that level of control.

Hurricanes certainly aren't new. Much like earthquakes, volcanic activity, tsunamis and disease, they've been around for a very, very long time. The same can be said for prayers, superstitions, claims about gods, ghosts, demons, angels and other supernatural entities. And in comparison to the problems and proclaimed methods of control, science is the new kid on the block; having been around for about 400-500 years.

But now let's look at the results. After tens of thousands of years of proclaimed gods, effectiveness of prayers, rituals, offerings and other superstitions; there has been not a speck of progress -- not one thing to ever confirm any of the claims and not a shred more control over the forces of nature than were known 5,000 years ago.

Science, on the other hand, has allowed us to understand what causes hurricanes, disease, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, tornadoes, droughts, floods and nearly every other natural event. We can now track storms, combat disease, predict tornadoes, and offer some control over floods.

Every single gain we have had has come to us via science while claims and practices of the paranormal and supernatural have provided a sum total of absolutely ZIP!

I believe that the universe and a reason for everything and that true coincidence is rare. the ability to control a storm would only come if the universe deems it necessary.

tigerzplay,

Perhaps I'm just overly curious when it comes to people and the things they believe. But when I read your post I feel unsatisfied. I'm looking at it and saying to myself; "Because????"

Feel free to attempt to satisfy my curiosity.

:)

I think the proof is in the pudding. It is hard to expunge any more than what Beast has already posted as this is how I feel as well. Simply put Science and nature can be proven without a doubt. I do not believe that nature can be harnassed in any way and feel that what we can affect is our reaction and what we do with the results of said disasters.

I feel that nature most likely is going to happen no matter how many prayers you say and how much hope you have.
I myself believe in prayers and am not saying they would not do any good to say it helps to give most people some peace and hope inside during the worse of times.
Yet things will happen regardless; the worse storms or other events of nature they don't ask someone's permission to happen.

I dont think we as an individual has any affect over nature or anything. We see it all the time "pray to save the earth or to send a hurricane else where" these things just dont happen. We cannot (and I should say shouldnt) try and force our will or to control other things.

Science is getting to big, when will they stop trying to meddle into mother nature and try and control everything. Mankind is very bad for that we have to control everything we can and in the end it will destory us.

SciFiFan,

Nearly every form of knowledge is a two-edged sword. We can accept the bad with the good or we can stagnate in the dark ages. Is there another choice?

Would you prefer to light your home with a torch, heat your home with a camp fire and be open to any and every disease with not even a clue as to what causes them?

I agree with the vast majority of your post but I don't think we need to try to stifle science simply because the knowledge it produces can be misused. Overall science is kind of like a drill. You can use a drill to put a bolt through a 2 x 4 in seconds or you can put it through a friend's skull. The problem, in my assessment, is the people and what they do with the knowledge, not the method by which we discover the knowledge.

And I think any look at history will show that a lack of knowledge is at least as dangerous.. likely more so.

O dont get me wrong Breastt17, science and technology is a good thing when used properly. I just dont see why everything has to be or need to be based around science.
Some things are better left alone why or what gives us the right to mess around with the unknown. Take the CERN test centre in Switzerland. I dont know why we are even trying to mess with something that can cause the world to end let alone cause Black holes. Yes it isnt proven that it will but who really needs or wants to find out.
I believe there is a place for both magic and science.

Science and magic both have a place in our world. Science is a powerful thing, used correctly it can benefit mankind as can magic.

Hopes and prayers didn't take us to the moon, or split the atom, good ole science did. Just a thought....

Magic IS science ..Or shall I say,the same forces that are at work in magic and are simply being prooved and explained by science..

Take for instance sound..a major component in magic..explained by science
Sacred geometry,also a component in magic..again explained by science.
Colour and light..components in magic,explained by science.
Physics.. the main component behind magics..being explained better and better by? Science.
Earths energes..all components in magic...explained by science.
I can go on and on but I think you get my point.
How much longer is it going to be before peeps start discounting one over the other and see that they are essentially the same? only one seeks to proove,the other doesnt.

Typo correction.."stop discounting one over the other"I will see if I can find a Dominar to fix that..sorry guys.

Im really serious about what I am about to say,and I honestly dont want to hurt feelings here or sound arrogant,but for all you magic users that have a thing against science..let me just say,that untill you at least have a basic understanding of science? You can never even begin to understand the forces you attempt to work with or manipulate.And therefore,you can not fully realize your full potential as a mage or witch or whatever you choose.Sure,we cant explain everything ,but we have come a very long way, and you should use it to your advantage.Why do you think the mages of old worked so hard at their studies of science?Gee,you dont think they realized just how intrical and important it was to magic do you?

Hi Clandestine, nice to see a fellow house mate on the forum.
So I guess the question is can mans beliefs stand up to a hurricane………

Lets approach it from a couple of places, im not a fan of science, I find it lacking as a belief system.
Sure we can see a big picture like weather systems and what tributes to a drop of rain.
Science however lacks as soon as we go deep into particles or space or the human mind and powers.
Science has issues understanding quantum discoveries … thus when debating human powers and it’s relationship to quantum facts science is out the window.

Now I guess I need from you what part of mans belief v storm are you asking?
Can a mind stop it?
Can science prove a mind can stop it or cause it?

Is this all real or just a program?

OK,..as far as the topic..yes,I totally believe that thought can be manifested into physical reality.And that includes storms.

Lavisbre,look,all science does is lend credence to your magic as far as Im concerned.It has shown so far that there are in fact forces at play in this universe that would enable the magic to work.Just because it cannot explain all of it,makes no difference.And it doesnt mean it isnt going to explain or prove more in the future.
Sure,there are going to be setbacks..just as in everything.An findings will most certainly change before they might get it right..but discounting or being predujiced against science because one might do magic is absurd.

Believing in an ultimate creator/divine being myself, I would say that science is God-given anyway. Use it to enhance your lives.

I have feet planted in both my religion and science. I also believe in the power of the mind. I hope that what I do is reach a happy medium in my grasp of things :)

Damn oceanne,
I haven't ever seen you this riled up.I do believe in what you are saying because without science in the equasion most would never make potions and such.

LOL neh,just got a bit passionate,not to worry.But yes,alchemy too Dexter.

SciFiFan,

Re: "O dont get me wrong Breastt17, science and technology is a good thing when used properly. I just dont see why everything has to be or need to be based around science."

I'm going to over-state this somewhat in order to make my point. Generally speaking; science is the study of reality. If you're not basing observations on science or scientifically founded principles, you're not dealing with reality.

Re: "Some things are better left alone"

This is what people said when science began exploring the possibility of immunizing people against disease. This is what people said when we considered transplanting organs to keep people from dying. This is what people said when we began unraveling the human genome. This is what people said when Darwin's Theory of Evolution (the key in many fields of medical research and medicine production), began to gain popularity. This is what people said when stem-cell research began to show promise. This is what people said when we began learning to clone living organisms.

Re: "...why or what gives us the right to mess around with the unknown."

You seem to be asserting some supreme entity who would need to give us permission. Were that the case, you most certainly wouldn't be sitting in a home with a television, water heater, air conditioner, stereo CD player, computer or Internet connection. We've never been given permission or denied permission to do anything by other than ourselves. Learning isn't a bad thing. It's actually the primary key to rising from the mud. Without science, we'd still be in the dark ages and if we need permission from some kind of supreme entity, we'd never do anything.

Re: "Take the CERN test centre in Switzerland. I dont know why we are even trying to mess with something that can cause the world to end let alone cause Black holes."

Perhaps that's exactly the problem -- you don't know, you don't understand and you don't care to spend the time to learn. There is even a thread on this topic and the vast majority of those against the LHC are those who haven't the slightest concept what it is or what we might learn through its use. If you knew... if you understood; perhaps you'd realize that there is always a risk. There was a risk in going to into space (remember the quarantine period?). There was a risk in going to the moon. There was a risk in launching satellites. When the first atomic bomb was detonated, many physicists working on the project were concerned that it would burn the entire atmosphere of the planet. There is always a risk. It seems in this case the risk has just been more over-publicized than in most other situations.

The LHC is an absolute gold-mine of scientific discovery.

Re: "Yes it isnt proven that it will but who really needs or wants to find out."
Did we "need" to learn to understand disease? Did we "need" to have radio, television and the Internet? Did we "need" to develop motor vehicles, vacuum cleaners, central heating, film cameras, video cameras, computers, cell phones, wrist watches, solid state digital storage devices, medicine, facsimile machines or movable type?

No.

We could have remained in the dark ages indefinitely and perhaps by now mankind would have been wiped out by a plague. We chose to survive and to advance. I believe that was an appropriate choice.

Re: "I believe there is a place for both magic and science."

I believe there is a place for science in everyone's life. I believe the place for magic is in books of fiction.

By the way, there is no "r" in my name.

TepesEnigma,

That wasn't "just a thought". It was a very astute and important observation. I would urge many here to go back and read it again and really think about the truth in that statement.

Well done and thank you.

lavisbre,

Re: "Lets approach it from a couple of places, im not a fan of science, I find it lacking as a belief system."

Science is a methodology developed to produce an understanding of the workings of reality, not a belief system. Used for the intended purpose, nothing even comes close to providing the volume of accurate discoveries produced through science.

Re: "Sure we can see a big picture like weather systems and what tributes to a drop of rain.
Science however lacks as soon as we go deep into particles or space or the human mind and powers."

I think it's safe to say that without science, you'd know next to nothing about space and little if anything about particles below the visible scale.

Re: "Science has issues understanding quantum discoveries … thus when debating human powers and it’s relationship to quantum facts science is out the window."

Perhaps you could enlighten me here; what kind of "quantum discoveries" are you referring to which are not the fruits of science?

It seems quite obvious that the problem here is exactly what it was when people believed the Earth to be flat and science began producing the evidence that it was a spheroid; the same thing that happened when people wanted to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe and the evidence showed that it wasn't even he center of the solar system; the same thing that happened when science began to produce the evidence which shows that life was not poofed up out of nothing by a supreme entity -- people want to believe one thing, science demonstrates something else to be true. Rather than recognizing their beliefs as wrong, they take to claiming that science is lacking or just plain wrong.

And while this has been a very common reaction; not once have those asserting their desired beliefs to be more accurate than the findings of science, ever been right. In every single case, science has been confirmed to be correct and beliefs held of superstition; whenever a conclusion is demonstrated, have been shown to be wrong.

Many times people will only accept truth if it concurs with their pre-conceived ideas. When it's demonstrated that their beliefs are wrong, rather than accept the reality, they readily launch an assault against the method by which they were determined to be wrong. When the only truth you'll accept is what you have subjectively asserted to be true, truth becomes beyond your grasp. Have you ever seriously considered the possibility that you might be wrong and science might be right?

Re: "Can science prove a mind can stop it or cause it?"
Can you?

When you can start or stop a hurricane with just your mind or even alter the direction of a tiny storm cloud, you'll have made a case. Until that time, science remains the producer of reality while other methods produce only fanciful assertions devoid of both evidence and merit.

It is so easy for Gods people to see Gods work, in hind site.
If you are the person that lost your house, then it is obviously God testing you.

I think Beltrand is right.. it doesn't matter how many prayers you say stuff will still happen..

Praying will give a collective pause prior to or shortly after an event though. A verbal sync of sorts. Yet to invest some divine intervention.. I think is a stretch, and abuse of faith application. It takes one person to see that others are a joy after their prayers where "answered". But if you prayed and your house is flat, and they tell you "God is just testing you.

Undervampsgaze,

Re: "I think Beltrand is right.. it doesn't matter how many prayers you say stuff will still happen.."

In this world of blind assertion and opinions asserted as fact, it is nice to know that there are somethings for which we have more than a guess or an opinion.

The proclaimed "power of prayer" has been tested by those who believe in god(s), those who do not, and those interested only in objective outcomes. In a small handful of cases, the results offered odds which were other than those predicted by pure chance. Each and every one of those studies was scrutinized and each and every one was found to have been methodologically flawed; skewing the results. For example; in one, the study was proclaimed to be double-blind. But those reviewing the methodology looked beyond the documentation and spoke with those who gathered the data. It was found that when they were interviewing the test subjects, they were fully aware of who had received prayer under the study and who had not.

In every case not found to be methodologically flawed, the result has been exactly the same -- there is zero statistical evidence denoting any alteration of outcomes attributable to prayer. And this hasn't just been tested once, or twice, or even a half dozen times. It has been tested dozens and dozens of times. And so we hear the never-tiring, "my god refuses to be tested" claim of stead-fast, close-minded believers.

Prayer has zero power to alter outcomes. It might provide false hope for the believer and it may help them to relieve their stress and anxiety levels. But it's much like taking a sugar pill thinking it will lower your high cholesterol. When the heart attack hits, it won't care what you thought the sugar pill was doing.

You're dead on the money.


(Armstrong - 2009 TdF!)

I can't agree that prayer has zero power to alter outcomes.

Perhaps outcomes though is the wrong word ? I have noticed throughout my life that prayer has helped me to better handle outcomes.

That's your opinion, Beastt. We're free to believe what we want, and I wouldn't belittle people for not letting themselves cower down to others that try to degrade them for having faith.

Here's a great article Cancer wrote: Thoughts are Things. I agree 100%.

wow .... I am almost afraid to post my opinion in fear of Beastt17 tearing it apart or something LOL yet, here goes.. OMG!

I do not feel that magic can stop something like a hurricane or anything of such forces of nature, it is all based on Science and happy that we have the ability to know within reason what we may be facing in the event of certain castastropies. Yet, I do believe in people who are blessed and do have abilities that can perform magical or other things that are unexplained.

I myself believe in prayer and hope for many things, because I have faith, I have faith in science and I also have faith in certain magical / unexplained actions and events, that science has yet to explained so... any ways just my post ... have at it Beastt17 LOL I am sure you can find something to disagree with in it lOL yet you cannot change my opinions or my beliefs / faiths :)

I also agree with Cancers *Thoughts are Things* 100 % I just read it and wow that is it all the way.. thanks Heidi, I forgot it was there LOL :)

Fear of posting is just the thing I want to squash here, and all over the forum for that matter.

We're all allowed to have opinions and all our perceptions are valid rather others like them or not. We should all practice tact in posting. No one should feel 'shamed' in posting. As long as we're on topic, we're free to speak here.

...back to your regularly scheduled program ;)

We can request a person to present what supports their opinion. Opinions based on credible (tangible) or accountable sources are held (by a majority) over opinions based on unseen or speculated sources.


Entertaining a belief, and placing an absolute to it, does not manifest that belief for others who are outside of that faith. Three people in a room one says

" Thank God that Flying silo did not hit us, our prayers have been answered."

The second says, thank Allah we where not hit, our prayers where answered."

The third said, Thank goodness if we had been hit that this building was designed to take a good strong hit. I am sure glad I assessed this one over the one that got hit."

Saying that only certain people are blessed is a habit of faiths.. one that really gets to me..

all i know is that prayers are good and sometime we think they are unanswer but i think they get answer in time as for the wind rain snow and thing only god can handle them .All we can do is pick up and move on with what is left.

Amazing how we react when our beliefs or convictions are scrutinised.I dont know about anyone else,but Beast's posts dont bother me one bit..quite the contrary..Because for one,I dont take them personally, and they make me REALLY think about what Im posting and how or why I feel the way I do about something. Which allows for thought adjustment if needed and it only serves to prompt me into researching my case more thoroughly..C'mon guys,whats so wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with his opinion, just like there is nothing wrong with an opinion on the other side of the fence. What I am working for here is a respect for all.

Oceane, I am not afraid of his opinion I just do not wish to have my opinion scuntinized because of what I may or may not believe I mean he posted this:Prayer has zero power to alter outcomes. It might provide false hope for the believer and it may help them to relieve their stress and anxiety levels. But it's much like taking a sugar pill thinking it will lower your high cholesterol. When the heart attack hits, it won't care what you thought the sugar pill was doing.

I feel it is disrespectful to tell someone that their prayers are useless, how do we know or better yet how does he know? can he prove it as he ask everyone else to prove their beliefs. I mean I could ask him or you if you love your family and you reply YES I DO... how would it make you feel if I told you to prove it...come'on lets be real. this is a discussion forum not a tear apart forum.. ok just had to speak / my opinion is all. I mean I do not agree with everythign that is posted yet I am not here to make judgement either or to make some one have doubt in themself or thier belief.

To me a faith is not something one should have to rethink, when their faith is what gets them through this life. I do not care to disrespect anyones faith or belief...but, that is just me.

*imagesinwords edit* And that's why I had to step in. It was plainly obvious people were being offended. If you weren't, that's great... but some people were. Some people don't feel the need to rethink their prayers and hopes as a waste of time.

It does actually relieve stress for some, but for others people telling them that prayer will solve everything, and yet things are continuing to be stessful.. then they are likely to feel misled.

Sinora,

Re: "I can't agree that prayer has zero power to alter outcomes.

This is the beauty of reality. It's not altered, offended or even affected by who does or doesn't believe. Some people still believe that the Earth is flat. For 16-centuries the Catholic/Christian church taught that the Earth was the center of the solar system. Many people still believe that the Earth was once flooded.

None the less, the Earth is not flat, it has never been the center of our solar system and it has never been completely flooded. Reality is not dependent upon mental projections concerning its content, intent or mechanisms.

Re: "Perhaps outcomes though is the wrong word ? I have noticed throughout my life that prayer has helped me to better handle outcomes."

This is likely what sells so many people on the idea of prayer; just as it sold people gallons and gallons of snake oil only a few decades ago. Whether or not the prayer was effective and providing a solution to problems; it at least offered the belief that something was being done to reduce potential harms.

But holding such a belief requires that one not analyze the concepts at hand. An omnipotent god of prayer is also a god of extortion. If a man threatens to burn your home, then suggest that for a paltry $500 a month, he can see to it that the recent string of arsons skip past your home leaving it in tact, we recognize the extortionate intent.

People are less prone to recognizing the same concept when the man threatening them is instead, an omnipotent God, who offers the same threat, but asks in exchange that you worship him and beg him to provide his protection for your home.

It is also a God of amazing cruelty who will allow a young child to linger in the process between cancer and death, yet suggests potential to intervene, only if people make the request. It's as though God doesn't know what to do until people tell him what they want.

Beastt, last warning. Next time is suspension. You are breaking Cancer's rule of making Posts that ridicule the philosophical tenants of any religion.

You could have simply disagreed. But it seems you are dead-set on letting people know how misguided they are for their faiths. There's a right and wrong way of posting in the forum, you can absolutely make a point and still follow forum guidelines.

I cannot argue with you there Images,because I understand,and happen to agree with what you .But let me ask,since when is a call for hard evidence disrespectful? Or laying out a breakdown of things in a manner that ,while we might percieve it as harsh or disrespectful,sometimes it really isnt.. just cut and dried with no dressing.Are we really so frail that we would actually be afraid to post something simply because another might not agree with what we say?
I dunno,I like it,because as I said,it only serves to promote me into at the very least attempting to post something that just might have a little validity to it as opposed to a blind opinion that are a dime a dozen with nothing to explain what might have brought one to that conclusion.I mean,forgive me if I am wrong here but isnt that what the forum is for?
And some of the posts are posted with an authority that would lead some to believe that it is fact...when it isnt.No one knows what ghosts really are or why they supposedly come about.How can one post something that is only conjecture as though it is hardline fact? That leads to misconception and no matter how much tact is used,it isnt a good thing.
If one believes in ghosts,or the power of thought,then hopefully the posts that Beast provides us with will actually prompt some thought and scrutiny in ones own thinnking enough to research the subject .
Take for instance thought into manifest..which was the subject of original post.I believe in it .And not for many of the reasons one might think.Or because of an article I happen to read in passing.I believe it because of things Ive researched,and resesarched hard.There are forces around this planet that would actually enable it to happen.And I cetainly dont mind bringing those to the table and laying them out for closer examination.Even if it proves me wrong.

Clearly he disagreed, then someone adressed his disagreement. I thought the to say "I agree." Or I disagree" was also not encouraged in the thread.

I am not saying to say 'I disgaree' or 'I agree' ONLY. I did not say state that and do not expound. Come on... I am SAYING not to break the forum RULES.

A call for hard evidence is not disprespectful. Calling someone's God cruel is. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

Let's get back on track and not ruin a thread here because people can't understand what my position is here. My position is to uphold Cancer's rules. They were broken. People were offended and the philosophical tenants of their religion was in fact ridiculed. That's the bottom line.

imagesinwords,

Re: "That's your opinion, Beastt."

Is it my opinion that Boeing 747's can attain flight in the Earth's atmosphere or is it something that has been demonstrated to be true; a fact?

Is it my opinion that corn is not poisonous to humans or is it a fact verified by a continually growing account of human consumption?

The outcome of multiple studies is not an "opinion", any more than is the oxygen content of the atmosphere. It's simply something which is true.

Re: "We're free to believe what we want

I'm not here to tell anyone what they can or can't believe. How would one go about forcing belief, anyway? I'm simply here to tell you what has been demonstrated to be true, and what has been demonstrated to be false. The belief or disbelief from that point, is purely up to you.

Re: "and I wouldn't belittle people for not letting themselves cower down to others that try to degrade them for having faith."

I have belittled no one. I have simply presented the demonstrations of reality, as opposed to the false-hoods of superstition. If finding that your beliefs are contradictive to reality makes you feel belittled, only you can do anything to change that.

As far as faith, I have only described the process as it is demonstrated in use; the willful dismissal of any and all reason, logic and evidence which fails to agree with beliefs held only out of personal subjective desire.

(Armstrong - 2009 TdF!)

Yes there is a time when we need to acknowledge the laws of nature, and remove our selves from the threat posed before us. If we pause in prayer we may miss a chance to assess a situations options. Yet A Hope this will hold, to a collapsing building will pull soures together "by sound" and that is a social call. People that say there are no athest in fox holes are bullying theoir faith onto others, that "See you pray smugness that faith , and dogma produce predictably. It is never the medical team that gets credit in a hospital from a religious family, Like "Thank goodness that doctor had a skillfull day, it is "Thank (insert god or universal diety/force)

I might get into trouble for this but sorry,I just feel it is important and since its been broached...

If ones faith is strong then something like the posts he posts should not shake it one iota.
If prayer works for you,then you know in your heart that it does,nothing anyone can say will change that.

*images edit*>It is very hard for me to try and fix things in the forum when the problem is being perpetuated. Members messaged me being offended, he flat out ridiculed a religion. It's plain to see. You can disagree and ask for 'evidence' without adding all the other stuff that just isn't necessary.

We could say prayer doesn't work and it doesn't for these reasons... all the while never adding to ther mix how cruel your God is.

BE a free- thinker. Just don't stomp on others while doing it.

imagesinwords,

Re: "Beastt, last warning. Next time is suspension. You are breaking Cancer's rule of making Posts that ridicule the philosophical tenants of any religion. "

I have ridiculed nothing. I have only presented the outcome of actual studies. And the rule, if you care to have a look, states "specific religion". My comments have all be directed toward religion in general.

None the less, where authority is selected over truth, truth cannot be allowed. It must be silenced for fear that ideas which cannot withstand scrutiny will suffer. That said, I obviously have little choice. It's obvious that there is a majority suggestion of "right ideas" and "wrong ideas". And just as with Galileo and Bruno, despite being right, having the "wrong ideas" despite being able to support them, will get you banned where people wish to hide from what reality demonstrates.

As requested, I leave you to your non-discussion.

*images edit* Just because you refuse to see what you said doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Move FORWARD.

But all in all,I do understand Images point as well,and because of that,Im dropping off that and any posts will remain strictly on the subject at hand..

I wanted to say that it isnt only my own research that leads me to believe that thought can be manifested though,I have things happen continuously that leads me to believe it.Enough that I would do an experiment on it if I only knew how and had someone to help.
Or could it be all attributed to Syncronicity?Or just timing and observation? Wish I knew for certain.

Derailed, disrespected, and a damn shame. There's just too much in here to save this and get back on focus. I should have never allowed for a discussion of what these forum rules are to go on so long in this thread. I am quite clear on them. And we can't salvage the discussion.