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recently three people were sentenced in the theft on destruction of hundreds of pieces of art from across europe....here is the link http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1385760,00.html
do you feel justice was served
I feel they should have gotten life in a cuban jail....torture is too good for them....
what are your thoughts?

i think they should have all their fingernails and tonails snatched off with a pair of pliers.... then string em up with some fishing line.... yeah torture them to the brink of ... excuse the pun.. "Destruction" lol

considering artwork is one of the few things that truely makes me happy, i say "shoot 'em all and let God sort out the rest"

those S.O.B's obviously won't learn a thing in jail so to hell with them

No it's not long enough! Art is salvation to some people. I definately think they should have gotten longer. Let's see, lets tie em to a chair, wrap some zipcord around them starting at the toes, around his legs, balls, chest and head, and her legs, breasts and head, and light it up. See what they think of that!

heres another link to the story....only more concernig the mother who caused the destruction....may her name live ever in infamy http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1384904,00.html

::Dons lots of heavy armour b4 sayin this and sets up a good early warning system::
I dunno about this one its 2 extremes 4 me ::ahem:: Me I don't really understand art per se and only H.R.H giger has ever appealed to me full stop but if it were a libary burn't down due to arson I would be pissed as hell so if it was books I would be very distressed but art ::shrugs shoulders:: oh yeah did they have a reason to destroy the art (how did they try and justify their actions??)

I think its monstrous what they did........ let me deal with them, i'm good at torture, they'll be begging fro death !!!!!!!!!

*squishes the little bee in Daermon's Bonnet*

Ditto you honey, love it when you get passionate about something :o)

Death to ingrates! *runs off the gather a lynch mob*

the Breitwiesers should be tortured and fed to the dragons or squished down the garbage disposal system is even a better idea. art theft is forgivable but destruction is unjustifiable. the sentence they got isn't even enough. imagine the loss of all those priceless artworks. i bleed for the artists whose works of art were stolen and destroyed.

I believe they should have their hearts torn from their bodies after having watched their livers and kidneys being eaten by random creatures of the night...or is that too nice? Artwork is a gift that not many live or learn to value as they have no access to it. Such things should be treasured and kept for all to see.

Once again I am bewildered by the responses in a Vampire Rave thread.

While I do believe that theft of any sort is wrong, this was a non-violent crime. The exact details of each theft are not given, so it's hard to be sure... But it sounds for the most part, non-violent.

I feel there are more important things to be outraged at.

true....there was no violence to people perpetrated.....but violence to an ideal..
as was said earlier...for many art is a salvation...an escape from daily troubles into a better place albeit temporarily.....
I agree that violence to an individual is bad...but how many peoples outlook into life may have been changed by these works.....how many young children may have been influenced to bring more beauty into this world by their appreciation of something in these particular pieces.....many people who were formerly violent find a good release of their inner turmoil through art.....myself among them......what if the next michealangelo was supposed to fall in love with art because of one of those works.....how is that less disgusting than harming a person......what of the harm done to the artists themselves...if they are still alive....artists put enough of themselves into good art that the destruction of such has been known to land people in psych ward....especially since most artists I have met hold onto reality only by thin threads to begin with....and the best among them were already half nuts.....destruction of their works has driven some to suicide.....if that is not harming someone...well then I guess you have a much stricter view on what harm is than I do......but you opinion is appreciated...I really do want to know peoples opinios on this
and I met many working in a gallery.....

im going to have to agree with cancer on this one.

true, paintings that have inspired many were stolen & destroyed, but there was no violence commited on their part & they didn't kill anyone or hurt anyone...some paintings were recovered althought badly damaged but nevertheless recovered.
they deserve time in jail, but not death. it wasnt anything major. i myself love art, but to wat extent? to take the lives of those who tarnish it?...NO! it is never right to wish death upon someone who has not done the ultimate crime of a life taking. i wish them ill in the sense that i wish they knew what they were doing was wrong and i want them to learn their lesson...but at wat price? certainly not their life....but their sweat and hard work to be able to understand the value of the importance of others masterpieces.....that is what they need to learn. anyway, if you kill them they wont learn their valuable lesson. people dont learn with violence, they learn through experiences. maybe if more people could understand that, there would be less violence in this world.


PS: LOL at your comparison of cuban jails!

Art is like literature, an expansion of the mind. It is a sad fact as an artist I can appreciate the agnst for the people that desicrated the works because artists put there souls in there work. To destroy something as beutiful and frail as the human mind and soul put in an object is just wrong, no matter what the circumstance maybe. It reminds me of hitler and book burning. There is not enough art feed in our environment as it is. All you find is shit made up to make you want to buy things for personal gain, not personal inlightenment(can't spell). I agree with cancer in hopes that two wrongs don't make shit right. But I'm glad Daermon posted it cause I did not know of the situation. My two cents are we should appreciate the, In my oppinion the lunacy and creativity of the never ending expansion of art that we take for granted.

k the story in short for those who dont wanna look into the links....
guy spends 7 years stealing works that he likes.....
gets arrested...
his mother.....destroys most of over 200 works because "she wanted to destroy what he loved".....is I believe what the quote was from the court record.....

Daermon,

I would consider theft among the highest non-violent sins/crimes. And it does harm, but not in a "violent" way.

I love art. But we could destroy every piece of art in existence. Paintings, fiction, music, all of it. In no time it would be replenished. The soul is an amazing creator.

i know of individuals who have commited murders and rape ( far more appauling than theft) and who have gotten away with it. Sometimes they serve a few years in prison and then move on with their life. I agree with Cancer. Art may be restored and recreated, but human life may not ( for mortals, anyway)

very very true indeed.

I do logically understand your words....but no matter how hard I try I just can't hold humans in such high regard.....
never could...I admit...it's a failing of mine

i'm with u daermon........ can't really relate to them much, dont think their the greatest and despise myself for being mortal

oh.... and why i dont disagree totally with cancer..... its like the saying punching someone in the dark is a victimless crime........ its not entirely true...... theft and larceny isn't victimless

i dont think you would say you dont relate to humanity or think its such an atrocious crime if someone were to murder your mother or any loved one for that matter. Remember, humans are the ones that create the art. The masterpieces didn't make themselves.

again in idealism I agree with you.....in reality not necesarily so much....
I think what may have jaded me to human death is actually too much of it around me.....I have attended far more than what I feel is my fair share of funerals....and after the first few I just sort of turned the caring meter down....as I said..I do consider it one of my failings.
but it has been useful when times get hard....last time I had to go to a funeral I was said to be the pillar that held the rest of the family up....it actually bothered me at the time that I was almost totally numb to it......but then again I really don't feel most emotions very strongly.....art is one of the few things in this life I have ever been able to be passionate about....

I'm sorry you feel that way. Being permeated by death and sorrow should awaken your emotions to mourn the death of others. You are knowledgable tot he fa t that humans are not immaortal. They have a finite time on earth, as weel as art. Your desensitization is not justified by thinking that death is no longer painful. Don't be so selfish. arts conveys and portrays the emotions of the individuals creating it, but the life of those individuals is what is valuable.

AnTaNia999,

I never said theft was victimless. I in fact said I considered it to be among the top non-violent sins/crimes.

But theft is, in its base form, non-violent.

ok, easy test for all of you. Imagine YOU spent ages putting your heart and soul into a piece of work (art, poetry, whatever floats your boat). NOW imagine someone steals it. and then someone else destroys it to protect the thief.

Victimless?

Non violent?

To me that would feel like having my heart torn from my body. And then stomped on. I argue that the act of destruction was a violent act, and the act of theft was as well because the thief knew he would harm those connected with the works if he stole them.

The term non-violent as used by myself and others in this thread would mean to not physically harm.

I have never argued that theft did not harm. But I cannot agree that it harms physically. Theft can (and often does) harm mentally. But let's not thrust additional meanings upon the term non-violent.

I do agree that having been around a lot of death I "should" have better understanding and empathy for the emotions surrounding it...but this has not happened.....I feel it is a defense mechanism that I have just turned off....I still understand the emotions logically....but in essense...they are dulled
it does make me able to help others.....as I can take a step back from the emotion....but I think it would be nice to understand it from a more realistic point of view

i think they should be turtured..and it doesn't happen then others will think they can do the same and get away with it!!~~

I would steal something if it was my passion and i would definetly not regret it (if i don't get caught anyway..)

there is no excuse, no reason, no justification for what they did. while I might not be as passionate about the punishment they recieve.. I do agree they should have harsh punishments. to spend a lifetime to create a masterpiece and have it destroyed so quickly is a shame. my views are much different that those who've stated thiers.. just adding my vote for tearing off toe nails and stringing em up.

-Athena

my views >>are not
*grumbles* stupid typos :P

wow. i say they should definantly be punished especialy that stupid woman for destroying them. i mean stealing them is one thing but destryoing them. GOD what kind of monster does such a thing.

Negotiations? (no not aggressive ones!) or what about making the thieves do something for the community rather than burning them?
Well, let's just watch and see...
I STILL think these people shouldn't get killed or anything!

I think their punishment should have been worse.... Art isn't something to be destroyed. It's so much more than that..

hmm..the human race is pretty stupid i must say. put them in jail for a while then they might learn something

Yes, we could start talking about how stupid the human race is... but that wouldn't do anything about it.

In the case of Stephan, it wasn't him who destroyed the art, it was his mother desperatley tyring to cover his tracks.

Art is often used to illustrate ( excuse the punn) the more luxurious things in life... expensive art galleries and yuppy-mentality.

Thoughts, desires and emotions put onto canvas becomes money the minute its signed and that really is a shame.

This man didn't harm anyone physically (although you do have a point about the mental harm thats left, Cancer, but some of it may have been more financial harm.)

Maybe this man was just desperate to be surrounded by something beautiful....

Why dont we think about that before we start pulling off his fingernails and cutting off his hands?

I may be wrong on this, but I believe the last I recall keeping one jerk in prision cost the taxpayer 5- to 60,000 bucks a year. That doesnt include if he wants to get his doctorate while he is there starting with a GED. Thats here. I think prision should be for the minor crap. Kill everyone else. This~~although a travasty~~~ would be minor. Agreeing with Echo AGAIN.. it is because someone puts an amount on it. Its art. A true artist paints, draws writes whatever because they wish to share talent and bring joy to others.. of course staying alive at the same time.. ie MONEY. But C'mon .. geezz torture? wow.. someone should go back and read the book of the old ways.

Odd.....I thought this one was long ago consigned to forums hell....
after a long time to consider it.....I would put them to hard labour on a work gang at a minimum wage rate till the have paid off the full value of the works the damaged...but the money ought to go to art programs for under priveledged children....at that pay rate they would never leave a jail setting and would re-contribute to society something that may fuel another great artists work in the future....make the punishment fit the crime

That sounds like a better plan Daermon.

I can't believe that he complained about the different jail systems in between the two countires... "He was extradited to France last July, but complained yesterday that he preferred the quality of prison life in Switzerland, where he was incarcerated with "bankers and directors of businesses", who made better companions than the "delinquents" and "drug dealers" in the French prison system with whom, he said, he had no common language."

It makes me wonder if he is sorry for what he did.

I think his mother should have called the police and had all the paintings returned. She never really punished him like I think she wanted to.

However, his advice to different museums that he stole painting from it might be of some use...

my two copper disks.....

offenceive it is....

worse crimes there are.....

episode 3 example is.....

yodaese difficult speak is.....

but yah your right my friend punishments would be better if they were metaphors of the crime....

then again prehaps I have read too much dante

really..I thought you just read too much seuss?

Destruction of art should come with the harshest punishment available for non-life threatening crime.

As an artist, I can honestly say I would feel less violated being raped or murdered than having my art destroyed.

why be bound by matter?
something is considered art only because majority says it is, or because it has everything that creation should have to be considired art, but again art is defined by people who gave themselves the right to judge. I think that we are all artists, everyone who creates something that isn't obvious copy of somebody else's work created an artwork, and I think that artwork is just the need of human to express some kind of emotion by transforming it into matter. Artwork should be important only to it's creator and only while he is creating it! And artwork measured by money?! To me that is extremly paradoxal, I mean you wanted to create that, nobody forced you, why you are asking money from me? It should be important to me because I could feel something close to what artist felt when doing the artwork by sensing (seeing, hearing, smelling, doesen't matter) the artwork. So theese people who did what they did deserve a punishment because they gave the right to themselves to destroy what they didn't create, but they not deserve punishment so terrible as you said, Daermon. And, for example, what if the creator himself freaks out one night, breaks and enter into the museum and destroys it's on works? What should be done if that happened? It also would be a destruction of creation!

...on the other hand hundreds of people die everyday by the hand of the other people and nobody makes a big fuss about that, and we are also someone' s creation.

(o.k. now you can throw your sticks and stones at me ;) )

Life should not be thrown around so carelessly. No matter what the felony or the crime or the needed solution, everyone and everything deserves life.

I just thought everyone should know that.

well i see wat you mean....and yes i do believe justice was served to sum entinces...

hehe no sticks and stones zlee...
I agree about people being killed by each other....it is a far greater outrage.....but do not place art so low....art is often meant to allow the viewer a differing perspective into their world...
to give them something of worth that will make them broaden their horizons.....
this is the value of art...not the dollar signs...if a picture, poem, or sculpture speaks to me I care not who did it or if they were famous....but a famous work is often one that has inspired many many people...and what these two did was remove any option that those pieces can ever inspire again...

never say never! Every destruction is a creation. Maybe this act that I too consider as extremly stupid will inspire someone to create something that could be of much more worth that those destroyed artworks (though I doubt that will happen.. ;) )

I'm just putting finished piece of art low, but act of creating an artwork is something that I cling my life onto! There is nothing that I consider that is above an act of creation!

well i mean why do you think that justice was not served??.....i think they could have done sumthings better but they had sympithy.....

I dont think he deserves any sympathy...and his mother did an awful thing as well, she should be punished somehow as well.

what he did was horrible....but I feel hers was by far the worse crime of the two.....
he at least was passionate about the art...that is why he stole the works in the first place....she was merely doing it to either cover for him...or punish him....disregarding whoever else would be punished by her act

i agree. stealing is a fairly minor offence. its the destruction that is appalling.

Hey have them kill someone then talk to me about wanting to torture someone