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So I have heard that when your dreaming and are are flying you are astral projecting . What other info is there or beliefs on this?

Dreams are entirely the product of our minds. There is nothing mystical about them. No matter what someone tells you, without evidence there's no reason to ever believe it. Look into the science of dreaming, rather than supernatural nonsense.

That is true. Dreams are not really supernatural. They are images are mind creates from desires and the like.

No i dream of tsunamis killing my loved ones and i dont want that, or smart dinosaurs killing people in the mall and i dont want that either... hmm or do i unconciously...

Dreams are yet fully known, like other points of life,(death). We can only interpet the dream scape as pictures or fantasy state of the unconsiuos mind.

Many claim to leave their bodies or even have dreams that come to be in days ahead, yet these cases come far and few between. I have had vivid dreams and woke to have the day played out just like a dream. Yet logically I question if such a dream has occured. I remember the points in my dream and have said well this will happen next and has. Yet logical it may be a hiccup on the feild of dreams and time.

We don't understand entirely what dreams mean, but we know what happens to the body when we dream, and we have a number of very strong theories on how and why we dream. None of the standing theories involve the supernatural. Imagine that...

Interpetation of what our dreams mean is left up to those who claim meanings behind them. yet as stated no logical proof of dreams have been assured as of yet.

Neurology is still relatively new, so most biological processes of the mind are still unknown. As with many things in science, however, the results of those unknown mechanisms are understood rather well.

Yet, to project ones self through dreaming would not like be a meditation aspect. For dreams are imagies the mind flash to maintain the electical current within the mind. It is said, yet proven or not- The mind stops dreaming, the body dies along with it.

It has been suggested that dreaming is a way for the mind and body to relieve stress. If people are deprived of REM sleep they start to go insane, experiencing waking dreams, symptoms of narcolepsy, and other psychological harm. Dreaming is a necessary mechanism, regardless of its purpose.

La6 pretty much summed everything up. Dreams are actually your basic desires. Whatever your thoughts for that day maybe what your dream for that night will be. It was once said that your soul leaves your body at night for the recording of your deeds for that day. I quickly found that not to be true. I believe that if we can somehow control our dreams, we can better control our selves and maybe project thought forms. However, astral projection does exist, and who knows it may tie into our very dreams. I have some great astral projection pdf's by some great authors. If anyone is interested, just shoot me a message and I will gladly send it to you. Just trying to help in any way I can.

i do believe its possiable but you have to be very relaxed and calm

Nightwing would like to see those links if you can.

The soul leaving the body, fictional speculation is all this is, the summery of this is like the old tale that a soul can leave the body and if the body is moved the soul becomes lost. Myths is all,

Sometimes the aspect of meditation as shown that the person feels like they have left their body, but in all actuality It could not.

The interesting thing about astral projection is that we have no way of knowing for sure that someone actually did project. We can't measure if a person leaves their body. Is it the soul? The personallity? The life force? Not even arguing if it is possible, but that if we project, we have only our own personal interpretation of events as our only proof. I'm not away of any studies or tests done to show it actaully happens. I not sure I can think of a test that can prove it.

Either way, I would say it is just a dream.

Sleep is the natural state of bodily rest observed in humans and other animals. It is common to all mammals and birds, and is also seen in many reptiles, amphibians, and fish. In humans, other mammals, and a substantial majority of other animals that have been studied (such as some species of fish, birds, ants, and fruit flies), regular sleep is essential for survival. The purposes of sleep are only partly clear and are the subject of intense research.

Dreams are a series of images, sounds and feelings occurring in the mind during sleep, accompanied with rapid eye movement. Dreams typically last in the range of 5 to 45 minutes. The contents and biological purposes of dreams are not fully understood, though they have been a topic of speculation and interest throughout recorded history. The scientific study of dreams is known as oneirology.




For the stages of sleep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep

For more about dreams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream

And for you others who actually HAVE an imagination:

We realize that your dreams are unique. No other individual can have your background, your emotions, or your experiences. Every dream is connected with your own "reality". Thus, in interpreting your dreams, it is important to draw from your personal life and experiences.
Remember that a dream unifies the body, mind, and spirit. It provides you with insight into ourselves and a means for self-exploration. In understanding your dreams, you will have a better understanding and discovery of your true self. So stay awhile -- explore, discover, have fun, make friends, and find out what's in YOUR dream?!

http://www.dreammoods.com/

I totally belive in astral projection , I,am often out of my body , but it seems to be more random chance than actual projection . I think it,s very much linked to dream states , lucid dreaming in particular . When your mind is wandering and your body and breathing are very relaxed , if you can become conscious of your self in your dreams then you can sometimes induce a projection .

There are many cases of such things as near death experiences ( NDE,s) ,and out of body experiences ( OOBE,s) astralprojection is just a controlled form of these things .

As do i believe in it .

Whats the scientific evidence ?

Volunteers who have claimed to be able to generate OOBEs at will have been clinically tested , and various interesting results have been found . During a reported OOBE the equipment that the volunteer has been "wired-up"to - an electroencepalograph (EEG) machien - has showen that their alpha waves decrease in activity while their beta waves increase . These changes in brain wave activity are important . There are sixteen principal brain waves , of which we are interested only in the first four :

1 Delta waves ( 1-4 hertz ) produced during sleep ;

2 Theta waves ( 5-7 hertz ) produced on the point of sleep and in certain hypnogogic stages;

3 Alpha waves ( 8-12 hertz ) produced when someone is resting quietly , but disappearing when the eyes are opened or when precise mental activity , such as mental arithmetic , is taking place;

4 Beta waves ( 13-30 hertz ) produced during normal activity while awake . Obviously waves at the lower end of the range (13 ) are produced by calmer moods than those at the upper end ( 30 ) produced in states of extreme agitation .

The EEG instuments are monitored by electrodes placed on the volunteers scalp , and these electrodes record the electrical potential of the cerebral cortex .

When we sleep - in the delta or theta - we have two types of sleep : paradoxical sleep , where we produce Rapid Eye Movement ( REM ) and where we do most of our dreaming ; and orthodox sleep ( NREM ) where we barely dream . Orthodox sleep occupies about 80 % of our sleep and occurs in periods of about 100 minutes . Then we have a brief period - 10 to 20 minutes on average - of paradoxical sleep ( about 20 % of total sleep ) and then back to orthodox sleep for another 100 minutes . This process goes on all night . If you wake someone in or immediately after paradoxical sleep , they willusually have good memory recall of their dreams . If as little as 5 minutes has elapsed before they are woken they will have little or no memory of their dreams . Paradoxical sleep is around 1 hertz and orthodox sleep 2 to 4 hertz , although these are both classified as delta waves .

The other monitored body activities are heart rate , respiration rate , REMs and the electrical resistance potential ( SERPs ) of electrodermal activity .

Monitored results

From monitored volunteers who claim to be able to project at will , the following results have been obseved ( these are average interpretations );

1 Alpha waves decrease , indicating a relaxed and calm state ;

2 Beta waves increase , indicating the volunteer is " awake " ;

3 Electrodermal activity falls , indicating increased relaxation ;

4 Heart rate increases , indicating the presence of some activity or stimulus ;

5 Respiration rate increases , indicating some activity or stimulus ;

6 REM is absent , although there are more eye movements that in orthodox sleep - there are no theta or delta waves , indicating the volunteer is not asleep or dreaming .

The findings seem to indicate a volunteer is in a relaxed state , but with a considerable degee of alertness . They are not asleep . There is no abrupt change in brain waves , such as one would expect with the onset of sleep ; changes occur gradually .

From the book Astral Projection by Richard Craze

So now we know that astral projection is a specific set and sequence of brain waves. It seems it is very similar to being in a meditative state.

Perhaps a study could be done where the particiapants project themselves to a place, perhaps the next room, and later describe what they saw.

Astral projection is a type of out-of-body experience (OBE) in which the astral body leaves its other six bodies and journeys far and wide to anywhere in the universe. The notion that we have seven bodies (one for each of the seven planes of reality) is a teaching of theosophist Madame Blavatsky. On its trips, the astral body perceives other astral bodies rather than their physical, etheric, emotional, spiritual, etc. bodies. In an ordinary OBE, such as remote viewing or the out-of-body near-death experience, there is a separation of a person's consciousness from his or her body. In the near-death out-of-body experience, there may be the experience of hovering above and perceiving one's body and environs,and hearing conversations of surgeons or rescue workers tinkering with one's body. In astral projection, it is the astral body, not the soul or consciousness, that leaves the body. The astral body, according to Madame Blavatsky, is the one that has an aura. It is also the seat of feeling and desire, and is generally described as being connected to the physical body during astral projection by an infinitely elastic and very fine silver cord, a kind of cosmic umbilical cord or Ariadne's thread.

There is scant evidence to support the claim that anyone can project their mind, soul, psyche, spirit, astral body, etheric body, or any other entity to somewhere else on this or any other planet. The main evidence is in the form of testimonials.

Here is a loosely related test.

I believe dreaming and astral projection are two completely separate states...I do believe in astral projection but it requires conscious, disciplined effort while dreaming, is for the most part, the complete opposite...

10241024 said " Perhaps a study could be done where the participents project themselves to a place , perhaps the next room , and later describe what they saw ".

There has been such tests , but results seem to be more hit and miss ,the evidence seems to be inconclusive . There are however some interesting cases of volunteers being succesful . I,ll write them out as i can,t provide a link ( there from the same book as my last post )

"Instead of just monitoring the volunteers physical changes , tests have been set up whereby the only way they could acquire certain information is by actually projecting . In one series of tests , a male volunteer was cued by the sound of a bell to tell him when to start projecting . A seven-figure number was displayed in the next room only after the bell was rung . After a suitable interval the number was hidden again and the bell sounded to tell the volunteer to " return " to his physical body . The results were not surprisingly , unpredictable . In most cases , the attempts proved futile . However , on one occasion the volunteer managed to get the first six didgits of the number completely correct - both the numbers and their order ".

"In another series of tests , a female volunteer was given a complicated picture to try to " see ". The picture was arranged so that she couldn,t see it from where she was lying , and it was also " fragmented " so that her viewpoint had to change several times to be able to see the entire picture . Again the results were varied and , in most attempts , disappointing . On two separate occasions , however the volunteer was able not only to " see " the entire picture but she reported conversations taking place in the next room about the tests which she would have been unable to overhear from her position during the tests ".

"Another volunteer , while " projecting ", saw and later described a visitor who had arrived after the volunteer was wired up to the EEG. The visitor remained out of sight of the volunteer and left before the test was completed . The description fitted the partner of one of the technicians , who had indeed arrived and depararted while the volunteer was being tested . The volunteer had never met or seen the person and had no prior knowledge about the visit ".

No conclusive evidence has yet been provided in my view .The successes are still interesting , perhaps more research is needed .

On a more personal note , i,d like to say what i belive happens . When your dreaming it is possible to fly through the dream scape your experiencing , but this in my mind is not astral projection . Actual projection is when you experience your real waking surroundings , but you are not awake. There are different degrees of projection , you can be astrally projecting and your mind can be filling in gaps ( dreaming bits ) of the projection . To be fully awear of reality in a projection takes a very high degree of skill . The more awear of reality you are , the more difficult it is maneouvre your astral self , your mind is very close to the real world , and wants to conform to it,s laws . Flying in dreams is a way of freeing your astral self . These are just my beliefs i may be wrong .

Even people who claim to teach others to astral project are vague about what it is, that is the way they get people to pay for advanced classes.

Placing such an expectation on dreams is bound to discourage those who have stable suitable dreams, sure people will offer "meditations" and promise to help unlock hidden esoteric "energies" to " unchain" yourself in your dreams.. but what are they offering?

Even people who claim to teach others to astral project are vague about what it is, that is the way they get people to pay for advanced classes.

Placing such an expectation on dreams is bound to discourage those who have stable suitable dreams, sure people will offer "meditations" and promise to help unlock hidden esoteric "energies" to " unchain" yourself in your dreams.. but what are they offering?

Yes they have proven that dreaming occurs durning R.E.M. sleep. Does that mean that the images you get during that cycle can't be communicated to your mind from a spiritual body out roaming around? The answer is no. I do know that a great deal of the time that dreams are scenes played out from the subconscious but there have been some cases when a person's brain activity as they entered R.E.M. sleep actually shifted to the conscious part of the brain and this is also the case with lucid dreaming. Before you go saying that something is or isn't real you should stop and consider the evidence that supports your claim, you should also remember that when it comes to the supernatural there is almost equal evidence for both sides of the argument.

In the beginning of this thread I saw someone mention evidence a couple times and it was said not to believe something until there is some. In that case I don't think I'll believe astral projection is false until there's evidence that it is. It's a big universe and there is still too much we don't understand about things to just rule something out because there's no evidence. If everybody did that than cells, atoms, viruses, etc.. would never have been discovered. I choose to have an open mind as everyone should. I'm not saying you shouldn't be skeptical because it would be foolish to accept everything at face value, just be willing to find new truths and to accept that what you believe might just possibly be wrong.

Dr Paul Brunton an English Occultist and mystic in the 1930's.

He spend the night in the Kings chamber inside the great pyramid, he meditated and experienced an astral projection. He studied a lot about the Egyptians, and Paul Brunton came closer to finding a key to the mystical aspects of the Great Pyramid than anyone else. The Great Pyramid was used to initiate candidates into the experience of astral projection and the truth of life after death. He had mystical experience where he felt his soul lifting upwards towards the heavens as if his soul was departing his physical body, and his whole physical body felt numb. He wrote books about his experiences, as if it was a after life outer body experience, just like the Egyptians beleived.

Yet you state you want evidence that something does not exist.. Your logic is flawed, and lacking any critical thinking. You actually voided your whole post.

Paul Brunton published a book called:
A Search in Secret Egypt

Well Dabbler I can beleive in what I want to beleive.
I have eclectic beleifs.

As well I have a right to accept dreams as nothing more then a biochemical
Process in the brain, and optical regions of the brain. Of this I am assured.
I believe people attempt to make dreams mean more, perhaps because their lives are so shallow. I find plenty of support for that belief too.

I applaud your belief, you appear to be very convicted, I would press t you a gold star, but I an down to only silver, seeings how yhere are so many dedicated believers here at VR.

imagine if the justice system worked like that," We believe he is guilty.. you don't have any evidence that he is not, so we reason he is.. "

The only way you can prove your hypothesis is by reason of experiment. That's what Sir Isaac Newton said.

Would not Astralprojection break the planes of time and rifts. For energy e believe the soul and being is, and now to transport it out of our body to Mexico or what ever, would break the laws of pysicis, and to get back into our body,

Than a movie comes to mind that the body dies while the energy is outside than what the energy dies along with it or takes on another body,

To many factors seem to come into play on this.

Cadre wolf wrote " Then a movie comes to mind , that the body dies while the enegy is outside then what the enegy dies along with it or takes a new one ".

There are vampires out there ( astral vampires ) that claim to be able to leave their bodies to feed on others while they sleep . When they die their astral bodies continue to exist in this way , so to avoid the second death .

Cadre wolf wrote " Would not astral projectio break the planes of time and rifts . For enegy belive the soul and being is , and now to transport it out of our body to mexico or what ever , would break the laws of phyisics , and to get back into our body "

Not necessarily , things can be linked without the need to cross through space and time .

La6Muerte66 Thank you was looking for that.

Moonbubble, I understand wghat you are trying to say, yet I guess I am ignorant on this astroprojection stuff. And to say on the lines that vampires here can do this and feed at the same time. Good theory, but I think this is all it is.
Energy can gain more energy, but vampiric terms would be only for the energy of another and not blood.

I would like to see more on this basis, so I can get the full idea of what was being stated. becuase pysics or law would come inot play at some given time, particals would gather more and so the energy would be corrupt. and if your body dies how does one assume another form. Is this obn the line of demonic possesion.

But than two objects can not share the same spot. So Now we have more aspects to look at.

Heck I may just be getting off my rocker. I cannot understand the theroy.

Important question, open to anyone: If someone is astral projecting, do you believe that you can affect physical objects with your "astral body"? Your answer determines the next question.

To La6Muerte66 , I apologize for the confusion over the quantum entanglement . My understanding has been based on information from a book that states .

Interactions under non local reality
1. The interaction does not diminish with distance.
2 It can act instantaneously ( faster than the speed of light )
3 It links up locations without crossing space

This book was published in 1994 , I,ve now looked it up and you absolutely right , seems my book is dated .

In line with this proposal, Clifton, Bub, and Halvorson (2003) have shown that one can derive the basic kinematic features of a quantum description of physical systems from three fundamental information-theoretic constraints:

1 the impossibility of superluminal information transfer between two physical systems by performing measurements on one of them
2 the impossibility of perfectly broadcasting the information contained in an unknown physical state (which, for pure states, amounts to ‘no cloning’)
3 the impossibility of communicating information so as to implement a bit commitment protocol with unconditional security

To answer you question , for arguments sake i,ll say yes

If its that so and it can be proven, and such individuals have that gift i would encourage trying the "One million dollar challenge". I mean if i could prove this and have tried it various times and i can affet physical matter, i would def' give it a shot, for both scientific and personal gain...

moonbubble, not only is the book dated, but depending on the motivation of the author, it could be deliberately "liberal" with the suggestions it makes. Just a thought, since LOADS of people are jumping on the "quantum theory/metaphysics" bandwagon and presupposing correlations that aren't there.

Okay, so to continue my questioning, if your "astral body" can affect physical objects independently of the physical body, through what physical mechanism does it perform such actions? It is not composed of physical matter, or even physical energy, by definition (energy isn't a substance, but merely a measurement of atomic/molecular activity, anyway). So by what means does it have the capacity to affect physical objects? That includes the body that it supposedly spends so much time manipulating.

And if you had answered "no," I would have asked you this: how is the astral body ever connected to the physical body? What physical connection is made that allows the physical body to be manipulated by a body that is not composed of physical matter? Is it a connection in the brain? Then what of people who are entirely braindead? Do they not have astral bodies? Or is the connection elsewhere? The heart, perhaps? No one to date has ever suggested a means by which the soul and the body are connected. Either they bring up chakrahs or meridians, and fail to note that neither of these exist in the physical body and therefore have no noted connection in the body, or they ignore the issue altogether,pretending that it's just to be assumed that the whole situation makes sense somehow.

To Cadre wolf , I could babble on for ages about this subject but i,am going to cut and arrange bits from a book to build a better picture .

"Many occutists of both yesterday and today accept that within the physical body there are at least two other subtle bodies : the astral body , which we can consciously enter and travel in ; and the mental body or soul , which is our true consciousness or being . Those subtle vessels do not die with the physical body , as they are not maintained by only physical means" .
" When a person dies , his or her astral body is released , containing within it the soul . The separation of those bodies from the physical shell is compleat at that time all the psychic energy surrounding the now-lifeless physical body ".
" The newly freed subtle bodies can exist in this free floating form for an amount of time determined by one factor only -- how long the psychic-energy field surrounding the astral body can remain intact to keep the form alive . Without the matching chemical processes of life causing the astral body to generate new lifeforce , the astral body will eventually use up its surrounding field of enegy as it tries to keep itself going ( many occultists belive this may happen as little as 24 hours after physical death ). Once the field of lifeforce is consumed , the astral body will experience what is knowen as the " second death ".
"When the second death occures , the astral body dissipates and the soul or mental body that was animating it is free to move on to the afterlife ."

Ok i,ve had enough of copying , i,am going to give you the quick version . A astral vampire would not need to die this second death , because he or she would intentionaly seek out the life forces of others to top up their astral body . Occultists belive that they can gain enegy through a kind of osmossis from the living enegy fields of humans ." It seems that a vampire might be able to carry on feeding in this manner forever ", "Theres no reason the enegy feeding process should one day stop working . As long as a vampire,s astral body absorbs lifeforce it should remain intact , and most likely grow more tangible . Manifeststations of apparitions could be little more than glimpses of such earhbound vampire spirits ".

All quotes are from a book entiteled ; Vampires The Occult Truth by Konstantinos , which i would highly recomend to anyone interested in any sort of vampires .

Thanks Moonbubble i shall look it up, but i am still not in the terms of energy left the body and touching, feeding or manipulating objects. maybe drop in temperature, yet no mass, no force to move an object.

But I rest, I shall look up the info you and the others have given, Thanks for the enlightment of the subject.

I've read a fair amount of Konstantinos' work, and I have to say I'm not impressed. "The Occult Truth" could accurately have been renamed "Incoherent Psychobabble." Much of the time, it seems he's talking straight from his ass. Even worse is the fact that he never actually cites verifiable sources. He just expects to be taken as an expert.

I,am sorry if this answer seems rushed never enough time . Alright , I,ll try and answer both yes and no , but i cant help feeling i,am setting myself up for a kick in the teeth . I just can,t provide physical evidence for a non-physical process . Because of that i,am just going to put my theory down , and it is just that ,a theory .

I belive that the astral body controlls the physical body by means of the brain . The brain controls the conscious and unconscious functions of the body , and therefore is its control center . Unlike current scientific thinking which belives electrical activity preceeds thought , I belive the opposite , that thought creates the electrical activity . Now this would be a non-physical process effecting a physical reaction , How ? I just don,t know . I think that astral enegy can effect physical enegy ( hence my original answer of yes to the question ) .La6Muerte66 wrote " Enegy isn,t a substance , but merely a measure of atomic / molecular activity " ,So the real question is , can astral enegy effect atoms / molecules ? To be honest i don,t really know , i have to base my answer on my own experiences . They have taught me it,s possible to feel astral enegys , wether I,am feeling them with my astral body , or my physical body is unclear . I,ve had definite physical sesations of pressure , electrical crackling ect . I belive this is essentially astral enegys effecting our physical reality . I wish i knew how it was done .

About people who are brain dead , I think as long as there body was kept alive the astral body would stay attached , but if the brain was dead the astral body would have no way of controling thought or body . I think it,s unfair to keep someone in limbo " switch them all off "

I don,t want to babble on about chakrahs , suffice to say , I think the heart chakrahs is the emotional center of the astral , the others are linked to emotions and thought states to , but in a lesser way .

The way our soul and body are connected is through thoughts and emotions , which are intrinsically linked to physical existance .

Moving actual inanimate objects with the astral body or thought is something I,am working on at the moment . I could tell you how I,am trying to do it , but theres no use as i cant back any off this stuff up . I,ll just say if i succeed i,ll let scientists poke arround inside my head .
Theres loads of stuff in this you can rip me for , go for it !

I didn't ask the question so I could rip on you for your answer. I posted it so someone could try to give a decent answer. While yours wasn't what I would consider satisfactory, at least you did what no one else has, and tried to answer. At least you had the guts to make an attempt. There's nothing to rip on anyway, as you openly admit that there's no evidence to back up what you said.

Another related question: Do you believe the personality is part of the "soul," "astral body," or what have you? You believe that thought precedes electrical activity, so that would entail the idea that personality also precedes electrical impulse, and therefore is cause by something else as well. If this is the case, then why is it that brain damage, most notably temporal lobe damage, directly affects thought, cognitive ability, and personality? If these thoughts precede the actions of the brain, and are actually the cause of such activity rather than the result, then why is it that damage to the brain adversely affects these processes? If you can think without using your brain (as you suggest,) then why does brain damage affect your thought?

I think that all HUMANS are connected in some way or another

The energy fields are stronger near water, that's why the Egyptians build the Great Pyramid opposite to the river nile. They beleived that the constellations were connected like a spirtual path, that leads the spirit to the heavens.

Why don't you ask Konstantinos himself. He has a myspace and as long as you are not rude he might answer you. He is actually a very nice guy according to people I know La6Muerte66. I don't think he should be disparaged that way because you have a different viewpoint. He is an occult writer and viewpoints of those who write in that field or metaphysics are quite different.

Astral Projection is a metaphysical term and not a scientific one and the belief you ask about comes from those circles. (some will say occult)

Astral projection (or astral travel) refers to episodes of out-of-body experiences perceived as unfolding in environments other than the physical world, by an astral counterpart of the physical body that separates from it and travels to one or more astral planes.[1] Astral projection is experienced as being "out of the body".[2] Unlike dreaming or near death experiences, astral projection may be practiced deliberately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

Robert Monroe actually used OOBE which has now been shortened to OBE. You can also read Oliver Fox or Sylvan Muldoon who came prior to Monroe but Monroe did a lot of research on this topic and created a research foundation that still exists. Monroe felt astral projection was rare and not every person who wanted to practice this concept would ever be able to achieve an OBE.

The idea of astral projection has not exactly been accepted by science since they haven't varified there is a soul or other part of one's body that can separate, unseen by outsiders eyes to go to other realms or planes of existence.

A source talking about flying dreams from another perspective.

http://healthfitness.com.au/articles/sleep/flying_dreams.htm

.. okay, my take on it: and unlike some in this thread, I won't be derisory.

I have Astral travelled twice & had control of it just the once.. but wow, that was an experience to last not one, but several Lifetimes.

~L6m66~ If that "fieldday" happens to take place, you should share the discussion, perhaps in your journal or something, seems like an interesting subject/debate to read from.

I concur with reavous, would like to see this posted in your journal or somewhere, I know how well intuned you are and the speculations and points you may question may have some answers for the rest of us to see or even learn from.

"What The BLEEP Do We Know?" I am offended by your responses on this docudrama. I simply do not agree with you and yes they had some metaphysical people in it but MOST of those speaking throughout the movie were quantum pysicists and the like. Do you have a PH d. ? I am curious in what? If Dr. Emoto is so scandalous and not considered by fellow academics as legitimate, then why did the United Nations invite him to speak? I think much of what you are saying is opinion which you are entitled to but I also think you should tone down your responses because they border on being extremely rude.

azuredark, you would probably be surprised to know that the physicists interviewed in the movie were abhorred at the final result. Their interviews were twisted, their message distorted, all in the name of sensationalism. I don't have to have a PhD to know what the academic community said about the movie. It was a pile of shit.

And no, I will not "tone down" my responses. If you're offended, then don't read what I have to say. Read the responses by the scientific community themselves.

http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_59/iss_11/14_1.shtml
http://www.einsteinyear.org/bleep/
http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/bleep/
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/reelscience/reviews/whatthe_bleep/


And straight from wikipedia:

Academic reaction

Scientists who have reviewed What the Bleep Do We Know!? have described distinct assertions made in the film as pseudoscience.[17] Amongst the concepts in the film that have been challenged are assertions that water molecules can be influenced by thought,[3] that meditation can reduce violent crime rates,[8] and that quantum physics implies that "consciousness is the ground of all being." The film was also discussed in a letter published in Physics Today that challenges how physics is taught, saying teaching fails to "expose the mysteries physics has encountered [and] reveal the limits of our understanding." In the letter, the authors write "the movie illustrates the uncertainty principle with a bouncing basketball being in several places at once. There's nothing wrong with that. It's recognized as pedagogical exaggeration. But the movie gradually moves to quantum 'insights' that lead a woman to toss away her antidepressant medication, to the quantum channeling of Ramtha, the 35,000-year-old Atlantis god, and on to even greater nonsense." It went on to say that "Most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins, and many are susceptible to being misguided," and that "a physics student may be unable to convincingly confront unjustified extrapolations of quantum mechanics," a shortcoming which the authors attribute to the current teaching of quantum mechanics, in which "we tacitly deny the mysteries physics has encountered."[5]

Richard Dawkins stated that "the authors seem undecided whether their theme is quantum theory or consciousness. Both are indeed mysterious, and their genuine mystery needs none of the hype with which this film relentlessly and noisily belabours us", concluding that the film is "tosh". Professor Clive Greated wrote that "thinking on neurology and addiction are covered in some detail but, unfortunately, early references in the film to quantum physics are not followed through, leading to a confused message". Despite his caveats, he recommends that people see the movie, stating, "I hope it develops into a cult movie in the UK as it has in the US. Science and engineering are important for our future, and anything that engages the public can only be a good thing." Simon Singh called it pseudoscience and said the suggestion "that if observing water changes its molecular structure, and if we are 90% water, then by observing ourselves we can change at a fundamental level via the laws of quantum physics" was "ridiculous balderdash." According to João Magueijo, professor in theoretical physics at Imperial College, the film deliberately misquotes science.[6] The American Chemical Society's review criticizes the film as a "pseudoscientific docudrama", saying "Among the more outlandish assertions are that people can travel backward in time, and that matter is actually thought."[8]

The film's central theme -- that quantum mechanics suggests that a conscious observer can affect physical reality -- has also been refuted by Bernie Hobbs, a science writer with ABC Science Online. Hobbs explains, "The observer effect of quantum physics isn't about people or reality. It comes from the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and it's about the limitations of trying to measure the position and momentum of subatomic particles... this only applies to sub-atomic particles - a rock doesn't need you to bump into it to exist. It's there. The sub-atomic particles that make up the atoms that make up the rock are there too." Hobbs also discusses Hagelin's experiment with Transcendental Meditation and the Washington DC rate of violent crime, saying that "the number of murders actually went up." Hobbs also disputed the film's use of the ten percent myth.[7]

David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he endorses the film's thesis that quantum mechanics are linked with consciousness. He says he is "profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness."[18]

In the film, during a discussion of the influence of experience on perception, Candace Pert notes a story, which she says she believes is true, of Native Americans being unable to see Columbus's ships because they were outside their experience. According to an article in Fortean Times by David Hambling, the origins of this story likely involved the voyages of Captain James Cook, not Columbus, and an account related by historian Robert Hughes which said Cook's ships were "...complex and unfamiliar as to defy the natives' understanding". Hambling says it is likely that both the Hughes account and the story told by Pert were exaggerations of the records left by Captain Cook and the botanist Joseph Banks. Historians believe the Native Americans likely saw the ships but ignored them as posing no immediate danger.[19]

And just a few more:

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-10/cult-science
http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep/index1.html?pn=1
http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/david_albert_wh_1

La6Muerte66 wrote :
Another related question : Do you belive the personality is part of the " soul " " astral body "

My answer :
In essence i think we,re born with a character , we are different from each other in spirit at the moment of birth . We are different before our acumulative experiences develop our egos and behavioural patterns .

La6Muerte66 wrote :
You belive that thought precedes electrical activity , so that would entail the idea that personality also precedes electrical impulse , and therefore is caused by something else as well . If this is the case , then why is it that brain damage , most notably temporal lobe damage , directly affects thought , cognitive ability , and personality ? If these thoughts precede the actions of the brain , and are actually the cause of such activity rather than the result , then why is it that damage to the brain adversely affects these processes ?. If you can think without using your brain ( as you suggest ) then why does brain damage affect your thought ?

My answer :
Ok i,ve done some research , so heres a quick version of what i,ve found :

Kolb & Wishaw (1990) have identified eight principle symptoms of temporal lobe damage:
1) disturbance of auditory sensation and perception,
2) disturbance of selective attention of auditory and visual input,
3) disorders of visual perception,
4) impaired organization and categorization of verbal material,
5) disturbance of language comprehension,
6) impaired long-term memory,
7) altered personality and affective behavior,
8) altered sexual behavior.

We, re interested in the later two because they concern behavioral patterns ,

Seizures of the temporal lobe can have dramatic effects on an individual's personality. Temporal lobe epilepsy can cause perseverative speech, paranoia and aggressive rages (Blumer and Benson, 1975). Severe damage to the temporal lobes can also alter sexual behavior (e.g. increase in activity) (Blumer and Walker, 1975). http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/btemporl.shtml
This website has far more detailed descriptions of the symptoms of temporal lobe damage :http://www.humboldt.edu/~morgan/tem3-s0.5htm

If people are experiencing outbursts of anger and rage , violent mood swings ect , the damage has indeed effected their behavioral patterns . If a peson was experiencing the other symptoms aswell *i,am not suprised they are prone to outbursts of anger , i would imagine it,s extremly fustrating not being able to percive and organize verbaly what they want to get accross .

*1) disturbance of auditory sensation and perception,
2) disturbance of selective attention of auditory and visual input,
3) disorders of visual perception,
4) impaired organization and categorization of verbal material,
5) disturbance of language comprehension,
6) impaired long-term memory,

However if they are exhibiting only aggressive behavior or altered sexual behavior , i belive that these are only symptoms of the brains inability to correctly process the thought , There are drugs , such as Depakote an antiseizure medication know to stailise activity in the temporal lobe , returnig normal personality . agression and sexual behavior are both only symptons that can be suppressed , they are , in my view physical affictions that upset the natural ability of the brain to correctly inturpret thought into electical impulses . The underlying personality has not changed it has just become afficted by otuside phsical damage.

Not taking into account that such medical conditions as diabeties and hormonal imbalances that can cause violent mood swings and unexplained aggression . Other conditions clearly have the ability to effect behavior not just brain damage . Personality in my mind is something that preceds thought , thought is the process by which we interact with our physical enviroment , but our physical bodies can also adversley effect our thoughts physical processes , making it difficult for the brain to interpret correctly the thoughts of the personality . I think ! Ok now you can rip it .

La6Muerte66

Yes I know they used the river for survival, but they also pyramids, because the Earth's energy fields in rituals are stronger near water. If you don't beleive that then look it up.

I believe I can project my consiousness to other people places and times.

I believe in astral projection for I have out of body experiences before in which I was asleep and saw my body sleep but was moving thoughout the apt to the living room.Thank you for your information above I shall read more into the subject.

Astral plane and dream plane both are different. astral projection can not be done in dream. dream and astral both can be projected but when the spirit (4th dimension when do night find entry to astral plane, mind creates dream planes to its vision. and when in sleep spirit do get astral planes its astral visit but we call it dream. astral projection we can do even in woke up mode. but dreams can be projected in sleep only and preparation is done earlier.

Its very simple to do for me but very hard to explain mathod for me. Coz i had my own technique came out of many techniques and many teachings including meditation, vision, relaxing exercise, following, imaging etc etc.

But one thing sure i can tell you. For astral projection you have to have subconscious boost. for this different peepal have different methods. I have little lengthy astral projection but once i really get ride its really very beautiful and thrilling just you can compare it with bungee jump or gliding. but i am not telling of speed just i am telling of thrill.

In astral practice I still not tried and learnt to see the self as though seen many a time myself from outside and going to my insde and looked my body parts. but i did not try to project this much. Coz reaching this stage will consume my lightside balancing and time too. coz once i locked to subconscious state, it keep me in darkside for much time. What i can project is to particular type say flying over sea and reaching to sea shores. Going to any specific monuments and or mountains or unknown vallies yet i have projected to go to my seen places. in astral projection what we do is goes to astral plane from materialistic plane and we don't know when the spirit land or open to materialistic plane of unknown time passage and places in normal case. To reach perfact place at perfact time will need little practice.

the best way of subconscious boost is t drown the inner self mind and conscious to seat chakra (Womb place) stay there some time and then try forr astral. this way the astral projection will be the most easiest. coz your subconscious is most alert to get boost.

One more tip. when you reached some place at astral or in lucid dream and do not wish to leave it, give the self a little swirl or whirl this will lock you to that place by subconscious lock.

i have had many dreams and actually they been premonition just warning me and alerting me what would be taking place.... Like for example i had a dream that my dad was going to be stuck on top of a hill without gas. and the exact model of car he left with..... my dad love to collect cars.... when i woke up i ask my mom where dad? she told me he was gone ... i told her about my dream she told me dont worry about it... My father later on came to the house telling us what occured to him exactly as the dream. occured....