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I came across this article earlier tonight, and found it interesting.

The Zombie Poison By Clair G. Wood

When Clairvius Narcisse entered the Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, he appeared to be suffering from malnutrition, high fever, and aches throughout his body. His condition deteriorated rapidly as he developed respiratory problems, became unresponsive, and then slipped into a coma. Two days later, on May 2, 1962, he was declared dead by two attending physicians. His sister, Angelina, identified the body, and another sister, Marie Claire, authenticated the death certificate by placing her fingerprint on it. The next day Angelina, Marie Claire, and the rest of the family buried Clairvius in a small cemetery near their village of l’Estere. Here the saga of Clairvius Narcisse should have ended, but 18 years later, in 1980, a shuffling, vacant-eyed man approached Angelina in the village marketplace and identified himself as her brother, Clairvius. His family and many villagers recognized him immediately, and he told them a fantastic tale of being dug up from his grave, beaten to his senses, and led away to work as a slave on a remote sugar plantation. Though surprised, the villagers accepted his story because they believed that the power of voodoo magic made such things possible. It was clear to then that Clairvius Narcisse had been a member of the living dead—a zombie.

Wade Davis, then a graduate student of ethnobotany (study of human use of plants) at Harvard University, went to Haiti to explore the world of Haitian secret societies to learn if the legend of the zombie had any basis in fact.

After a number of setbacks, Davis secured the authentic “zombie powder” and sent a sample to Professor Leon Roizin of the New York State Psychiatric Institute at Columbia Presbyterian College, New York: Roizin conducted some quick, preliminary tests. The powder was applied to laboratory rats on a shaved section of their backs. The rats soon became comatose and moved only when strongly stimulated. After six hours they did not respond to stimulus and, by all appearances, were dead. However, when Roizin used electronic monitors, the EKG showed a faint heartbeat, and the EEG revealed the presence of brain waves. Davis pointed out that these were preliminary tests that should be repeated (with different samples, different doses, etc.) before drawing firm scientific conclusions, but the results indicated that the powder contained a very active ingredient.

Laurent Rivier, a plant chemist at the University of Lausanne, Switzerland, had the sample analyzed and confirmed that it contained tetrodotoxin, the well-know toxin of the puffer fish.

Tetrodotoxin

The liver and reproductive organs of the puffer fish contain tetrodotoxin, an extremely powerful nerve poison. Only 0.00000065 g of tetrodotoxin is required to kill an adult, making it about 1000 times more toxic than cyanide.

The effects of tetrodotoxin are well documented in Japan, where the highly prized dish fugu is prepared from the raw flesh of the puffer fish. Chefs must be specially trained and licensed to prepare fugu. Even so, during the 1980s, nearly 200 Japanese diners have paid the ultimate price to satisfy their craving for fugu.

“It is a terrible death,” reports on fugu devotee. “Even though you can think very clearly, your arms and legs become numb and you cannot sit up. You cannot speak, cannot move, and soon cannot breathe.”

Japanese researchers have described three degrees of tetrodotoxin poisoning. The first is distinguished by a progressive numbing sensation and a loss of motor control akin to having the entire body “fall asleep.” The second includes paralysis of the body, difficulty in breathing, cyanosis, and a precipitous drop in blood pressure. Meanwhile, the victim can see and hear what is going on around him, although he has no sense of touch. In the third and last degree, death is caused by acute respiratory failure.

If tetrodotoxin is ingested, the victim nearly always succumbs, but if it is applied to the skin, there is at least a 50-50 chance of recovery. However, it is not always necessary for the toxin to be ingested to be deadly. In 1967, an Australian soldier picked up a blue-ringed octopus that was tiny enough to crawl on the back of his hand. The creature bit him and, despite immediate medical aid, he developed respiratory distress, became paralyzed, and died.

A great deal of research has been done on the physiological effects of tetrodotoxin. It blocks the function of the axons (that part of the nerve cell through which electrical impulses are transmitted), making the voluntary muscles unusable. It also causes the smooth muscle of the vascular system to relax, leading to a fall in arterial blood pressure. A rapid drop in body temperature appears to be related to the toxin’s action on the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates temperature, ion and fluid balance, and certain hormonal secretions. The mechanisms by which these phenomena occur are not completely understood, but the toxins appear to work by blocking sodium ion transport channels in neurons and disrupting nerve voltage.

Zombies

Haitians believe that the “zombie powder” works when merely brushed on the skin, and therefore can be administered without the victim’s knowledge. According to legend, the powder can be smeared on the doorstep of the victim’s house so he will absorb it through the soles of his feet. Davis points out that all reliable reports show that the material must enter the blood directly, through a cut or abrasion, and it is therefore unlikely that it could be administered without the victim’s knowledge.

Somehow, Narcisse received a dose of the zombie powder. He became ill, went to the hospital, became paralyzed, and “died.†He later said that he was conscious throughout and heard himself pronounced dead. After burial, he was dug up, beaten “to prevent his spirit from reentering his body,†and led away to a distant plantation. According to some accounts, zombies are fed a paste made from datura stramonium—the zombie’s cucumber—that contains tropane alkaloids capable of inducing a psychotic state. Continued doses could keep a zombie confused and docile during his new life as a slave.

In the case of Narcisse, the slave owner died after 18 years, and Narcisse regained his freedom by simply wandering away from the plantation.

This is an excerpt of an article that originally appeared in the October 1987 edition of ChemMatters.



So, if that was the case that indeed was poison how many others do you think have had the same "cards dealt to them" ?

A few I would imagine. I mean, its not like the movie: Serpent and the Rainbow, yeah... I said it first, HA! was based on a fabrication, I mean the scientist was actually in Haiti on assignment, the movie was based on a true story scenerio.

Now as far as how a zombi virus could be created, instead of a toxin itself... If what I researched is valid, then if a virus were created to take the absorbtion of Serotonin to the brain away, what would happen? I am only drawing on hypothesis here... But could it happen?

In a human form of the Mad Cow desease effectionately known as Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, the symptoms ellude to that of being an apparent first stage of zombi-ism:

Changes in gait (walking)
Hallucinations
Lack of coordination (for example, stumbling and falling)
Muscle twitching
Myoclonic jerks or seizures
Rapidly developing delirium or dementia

Now, if the serotonin went missing then what praytell would be the outcome?

SS- There's a flaw in your argument, CJD is always fatal and lasts from 4-14 months so the chances of it being CJD is highly unlikely. Many diseases cause the symptoms listed some are fatal others go into remission etc.

From a medical stand point I am more apt to say that it was drug induced causing various hallucinations along with the other symptoms. Serotonin Syndrome, a possible side-effect of the drug Ecstasy or "X" among others causes increased heart rate, dilated pupils, sweating, myoclonus (Uncontrolled muscle movements/twitching) as well as unresponsive reflexes. It can also cause a high fever (106F 41.1C), coma and death.

I have heard of many "zombie" cases and personally I think most of them fall into 4 categories:
1) Drug induced psychosis/ side-effects
2) Physical Disease
3) General psychosis
4) Lying/story telling

Since I do believe in the supernatural I don't discount the possibility of some form of possession or other supernatural occurrences but only if the case fails to fit into those 4 categories.

~Xzavier~, there is almost always a flaw in my arguements. Some are rhetorical arguements to keep the "kids" on their feet, and some are there to instigate discussion even if the level seems a bit fantastic.

Such as this thread for example, no offense ~LDR~. Zombi are a fantasized reality, so any information that stems from this discussion and or debate is purely speculative at best. Unless scientists actually concoct a virus that is transmutative on a molecular level and can actually produce activity from dead flesh IE Frankenstien, then I see no reason why my arguement should be questioned. But I can see you point as well as where you are coming from.

Purely from a scientific perspective of course, there at the moment is no phsyically possible way a true flesh eating zombi could ever exist? Could there?

The CJD was a simple example post to get the thread started in a right direction as apposed to a wrong which is where latter zombi threads have run their course too. Forgive my rhetoric.

I know I know, I just had to point it out because I'm like that haha.

Could actual sustained flesh eating zombies be a medical possibility? Not on your life, any such creature would die very quickly.

Now if we take a more broad view of zombies to include those that don't eat flesh but are basically mindless wondering "corpses" (but not actually dead) probably, but not for long. Anything that could cause the brain to basically shut-down would cause great damage over time and lead to death.

Damned straight, and even if the scientific community could come up with a virus IE Resident Evil, then I would give said zombi at least a 16 to 24 hour fighting chance at best for physical survival. This includes all brain activity shutting down for true death to happen.

Now, if the virus were to effect the brain accordingly, would it not lead to some sort of chemical transmitting to happen on a molecular level that treats the zombi as a sort of flesh computer? Such as a leach wrapped around the spinal cord barking orders?

The final question is a referance to the Bruce Campbell movie: Mindwarp.

I've been in the medical field for sometime but I don't know a whole lot about parasitic agents. The only creatures/viruses I know of the can alter the actions of a host animal are with ants and bees. Most parasites of course either feed off the host's food intake or the host itself.

Now, genetically altering a person (changing it's DNA before implanting it into a 'mother' would be the best way) could possibly produce a zombie like person.
The idea of an actual dead person being reanimated for more than a day, through any means, is impossible. There really isn't even any room for speculation. Once our immune system shuts down (which happens within a few minutes of death) the billions of bacteria living inside our gut and other places would begin to consume the body and make the work of any virus even harder. Creating a virus that could stop the hundreds of types of natural bacteria in humans would also attack and destroy the person's cells as well. Remember one of the biggest problems with finding vaccines isn't that we can't find a drug that can kill a certain bacteria or virus but that it would also kill human cells because their structure and mechanisms of action are so very similar.

Love seeing a good debate on something ! The forum is ALIVE ! . Now to have no seratonin in your body, The Happy Hormone, that is in it self is what the pharmaceutical companies just love, so that we can be adviced what drugs we need to take.

If you have low levels of serotonin, you could experience a variety of symptoms ranging from the "blues" to serious emotional disorders, including:
Anxiety - Fatigue - Depression - Pre-menstrual syndrome - Problems in thinking, concentrating and decision making - Low self esteem - Needless feelings of unworthiness and guilt - Loss of interest and pleasure in usual activities - Sleep and appetite disturbances
Chronic depressive disorder - Obsessive compulsive disorder - Bulimia - Alcoholism - Violent temper and poor impulse control - Panic /agoraphobia syndrome.

(above paragraph from http://www.smart-publications.com/depression/serotonin_deficency.php )

So with symtoms like that you are for all purposes a walking zombie. I myself suffer frommoderate to severe panic attacks, OCD, Sleep problem and others. And when not taking something I do feel kiuje a zombie.

In the case of Serotonin Syndrome or "Serotonin Storm" it's actually an overabundance of Serotonin. What happens is the cells that produce the chemical goes into over-drive and won't stop. Serotonin is more than the "happy chemical" it also plays a role in movement, communication between body parts, behaviour and other things. Having to much Serotonin I feel would fit the bill of a zombie more so than to little. Of course at this point as SS said it's just speculation.

Hmm, interesting. So they don't really become zombies at all, as in they don't die completely and then come back to life, they enter a cataleptic state from which they can eventually be awoken.

Voodoo, much like Gypsy practices are shrouded in mysticism, that mysticism is usually pretense for actual practices.

I learned to never insult gypsy, or those who are affiliated with voodo, not because I fear " mystic power" but because of the Networks that they both engage.

Identity Theft is a possible motive for an apparent death.

Image the following, you are looking for man power, you have a pool of
immigrents, you promise prevaling wages, to lure them in. Spike the after work festiv' beverage, and drug, and ship off the new slaves.

How then do you silence the occasional inquiry from family members that knew generally that their family member was employeed through X Employer? Simple tell them they died.

Dabb didn't say those who practice various spiritual systems are low lives, he said those that engage in spiritual intimidation (spells and so on to harm people, or force negative things to happen etc) are low lives. Something I happen to agree with.

Zombies, vampires etc all have multiple meanings. The Hollywood zombie is some mindless flesh eating undead dead thing. A zombie in general is basically someone who lacks higher brain functions, is diseased and violent.
The same with vampires, one version says they turn into bats and can't be out in the sun and a more historical version of vampires are people or spirits who feed off the life energy of others.