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Okay, so what is what? Many people mistaken light for good and darkness for evil...this is a problem cause everyone should know the truth...So, there are many things...there is Light, Dark, Good, Evil, Neutral, Lawful, and Chaotic...

What are each of these?

DARKNESS>Darkness is simply a form of light that is more mysterious and has different views and is meant to conceal and hide secrets.

LIGHT>Light is more direct and reveals things, but has no limitations and will go everywhere and illuminate everything.

GOOD>Good is for the greater good of the many without harming anyone or anything in the process

EVIL>Evil is for the greater good of whoever wants it to needs it and cares nothing for who gets hurt

NEUTRAL>Neutral is neither good nor evil, neither lawful nor chaotic

LAWFUL>Lawful is utilizing your talents and skills for a beneficial purpose and is well thought out and executed

CHAOTIC>Chaotic is lashing out in frustration or anger without thought or consideration

This is how it works...

Dark Evil
Dark Good
Dark Neutral
Dark Lawful
Dark Chaotic
Light Evil
Light Good
Light Neutral
Light Lawful
Light Chaotic

So, what's the lesson here? Simple, that darkness and light can be equally good or equally evil...a good example, darkness can crush in pitch black and cause you to go insane, but subtle darkness is shielding and protective...and light can be warm and fulfilling and revealing, but it can also blind you and burn you...

wrong! in my point of view lawful is just order and order is neutral not good and in many case...corrupt.

Order is control and loss of freedom and very oppressive.

chaos is not mindless anger and lashing out,chaos is nature and the natural way as its about freedom and anything happening. no control at all.


good and evil can influence these two though. evil chaos is about destruction with no desire to rule or be rich but to simply watch the world burn..i'm part this type.

evil order is about domination and the desire to have everything and control it.

i agree with mal, i myself is between the chaotic evil and and order evil but i would rule the world to make other laws invalid and then just leave it to chaos with a bit of rule to it. so it will 70 chaos and 30 order or something like that. this world is not mean tot be controlled but due to the stinking wretche dhumanity,its nothing but a gray wasteland.

Dark is peaceful, calm, soothing, a place where one can hide in safety, where ideas can fly, where the mind can find itself.

Light is chaos, noise, eyes must close to withstand the invasion to the senses.

Well, I had no idea that the first few people one this would be so quick to attack instead of discuss...oh well, so much for open-minded and intelligent debate...especially Mai, that was just rude and uncalled for, I don't recall insulting you at any point in time, but if I had, my apologies. So I won't be on this thread again.

besides discussions like this shouldn't be in the sandbox. it's in the wrong spot of the forum.

I agree and have moved this to General.

what I find interesting is that it dark in the womb of your mother before you were born, and the universe has dark matter and we don't think of them as "evil".
So, why is it when someone speaks of the word "dark" they automatically associate it with evil ? Well, that is actually a rhetorical question. humans get conditioned to think a certain way, and remember the elite don't want you educated, even still to this day. Some cultures don't even have concepts of good and evil, and some have them plus other choices. So, definitions, culture ,era, society and more factors in the perspective of this topic.

i really dont think such things are so easily defined, and i especially dont want to try to chart it out like its a role playing game.

i love the darkness...that which is obscured...less defined. im not evil in that i dont go out of my way to cause strife or harm others, but im not so good that i will sacrifice those i love for the "greater good".

would i leap into a rushing river to save a child if i knew it would take my life...
yes...without hesitation

would i sacrifice my family if the fate of the rest of the world was on the line? nope.
~W~

Lord fawn,

It appears you are taking the role of instructor, and telling the reader something, how is this seeking discussion? Then to openly abandon the thread when your dictating post is challenged.. is that
how you handle potential illumination?

I am curious, by what sources have to this conclusion? I would (if I thought I was supported a matter) refer to such sources, so Malicious (right, or wrong) is just as speculative as you are.

You are making absolute statements, then hoping others cater to your personal interpretation, no discussion potential here.

I actually see a hint that someone played D and D as a teen.

Dark Evil
Dark Good
Dark Neutral
Dark Lawful
Dark Chaotic
Light Evil
Light Good
Light Neutral
Light Lawful
Light Chaotic

Interesting to believe that the above is true. My opinion is that is not true. Evil is evil, good is good. The words "dark" and "light" got nothing to do with evil or good. Is just an addition created by the organized religion to influence the mind of the followers. If I go to the street, and a nice good looking lady is walking with her husband and I look and desire her, then, that make me evil or good. Just remember, what is evil for some, is normal to others, and what is good for others, is evil to some. My 2 cents to the topic.

I see and experience light and dark, and good and evil, as a continuum, a sliding scale, kind of like the one we use when playing with photographic images to achieve optimum results of picture quality, color saturation, hue density.

The key being not only my perception at the moment, but my goals.

In other words, the individual controls the balance and interpretation of these values.

In most circumstances, they are not absolute values, and the one continuum cannot be overlain on the other, like a transparency, and yield any conclusive results.

Problems arise when the individual is either incapable or not desiring of the control in determining these two aspects.

That's where religions, and other rule makers, enter their explanations and try to impose them on others. It's like playing a game. You want to play, then you follow the rules created by someone else.

i think that when you put it into terms that are like something from a role playing game, it makes things far too simplistic...people arent simplistic things at all.


~Wolf~
a 9th level chaotic good magic user
;c)

to quote my favorite series... light does not always equate to good just as darkness doesn't not always breed evil. it is all in one's heart as far as what is good and or bad and dark.

you're right, dark and light doesn't always mean good and evil but it really does depend on how you mean dark and light.

but its usually accepted as good and evil (if its not about the light of the room or lack of it lol),people say things like forces of darkness or prince of darkness etc.

in terms of morality though,an evil person can be light as well as a good person being dark.
me, i'm good old fashioned dark evil. i don't hide behind a mask unless deception is key to what i want.

you could say the witch hunters and inquisitors were a light evil as they hid behind a mask of righteousness and used the bible and mankind's fear to justify cold-blooded murder.

or they could have been a very dark good that actually believed they were doing good. remember, every era has its own moral standard.In the olden days, watching people scream in agony while being burnt alive and throwing rotten veg and cheering at hanged corpses were considered normal.

i've been told that i am a very good naturd person, but my persona radiates darkness and therefore considered an evil person because i am judged outwardly not with whats internal. this is a cliche' that i tire of constantly but have also found useful in the fact it keeps me from getting hurt.

from reading the views of the forum starter of this topic i can only say they are interesting but not views that i would agree with.

i think a lot of people like to make things more hdifficult than they really are and they tend to want people to read between the lines when there is in fact nothing to read.

i think light and dark good and evil is prety much straight to the point

light i feel is associated with good and dark is associated with evil

it's just common sense that this is how it is,i don't find any point in arguing with somethign that has no valid argumenative points.

to me trying to say good isnt light and evil isnt dark is kind of like saying the left hand isnt on one side of your body and vide versa.

but...i do believe that darkness can have a spirituality such as the alluminations felt by many occultist..perhaps that is what is trying to be reffered to by the author of this forum topic.

I think that the author of this post meant exactly what he said. That there are varying degrees of light, dark, evil, good, chaos, lawful, and neutral. And I personally can agree with that. He did put it in rather matter-of-fact terms but I personally have always felt that there are different degrees of good, evil, light, and dark. And to be honest, I don't think it's wise to NOT read in between the lines sometimes.

Evil has a different meaning for everyone just like good does. Same with light and dark. For example, say someone was following a certain path that goes against the beliefs of another religion... The people of that religion would, in fact, think those people are evil but the people of the path would believe they were doing good.

Light and dark can be applied to anything, if you ask me. I've met people whose own strength lies within the fact that they are just naturally dark people. And it's not as though they bad or anything. They're very good people that just have darker tendencies than most others.

I can honestly see the author's point here. He DID kind of simplify it far too much but behind the simplicity is a far larger theory than some of you seem to be considering.

We have been taught that dark is evil, and light is good, Roman.

I don't think it's oversimplifying to argue that those original teachings are outmoded.

Dark was evil to ancient man because he couldn't see danger lurking. It was also the nearest to the nothingness of death that he could imagine. Huddled around a campfire, they sought not only warmth, but the safety of the light.

It's a hop, skip and jump to apply these practical experiences and reinterpret them metaphorically.

But that don't make them true.


We can make light now. Does that make us GOOD everytime we flick a light switch?

Or what if we provide electricity to an impoverished area? That's good, right? But what if we do it so we can control the mineral rights there and enslave the people? Hey, they got light.

Black hat or white hat? The gunslinger who saves the townspeople; the hooker with the heart of gold; the tortured soul of a vampire who decides to pick off only the evildoer?

Light Illuminates, and Darkness Obscures.

There are those who stare at their light source, and some that turn around, and explore visually that which is illuminated.

There are those who are at ease in the darkness, and those who seek to scare others as to what allegedly lurks in the darkness.


Again though, I am curious as to the source of the sermon.

I have to agree with Bloodmother here. I guess the best example (for me) would be the movie "Unforgiven" starring Clint Eastwood.

He is the old "evildoer" in the black hat. Gene Hackman plays the sherriff of the town of "Big Whiskey, Wyoming."

I think the movie, "The Godfather" also depicts a certain aspect of the evil guy being good.

Good and evil, light and dark, are based on one's perspective.

From the United States' point of view, the taliban is nothing but a terrorist organization. But, to the taliban, the United States is the largest terrorist organization in the world.

There are not always clear lines dividing good and evil, light and dark.

Look at Batman, he is good because he defends the helpless. But, he is evil because he breaks the law as a vigilante.

But then, what about Superman? I believe the same arguement applies here, even though most would consider him to be completely good (a boyscout). He breaks the law of the land by being a vigilante.

Now, there are things that can be considered truly good and truly evil.

Helping someone up when they are down (figuratively and literally) is that not a purely good thing?

Child abuse, is this not purely an evil thing?

i would say look to the east the yin and yang, the light and dark, the good and evil,the male and female... i believe there is both and all in everyone and how we choose to use these forces is how we are percieved...because you can never judge a book by its cover..and you can never tell the motivations ..true motivations behind someones actions

LordWolf: 9th level chaotic good magic user. ROFLMAO

I am sorry but I needed that laugh today.

But to the OP I will quote Migene Gonzalez-Wippler, "...evil is the result of man's own wrongdoings."

oh, i consider the taliban pure evil. why?
the u.s. doesnt strap bombs to children. we may sometimes take out civilians (war is after all hell), but we dont target them with intent.

its like saying that the nazies werent completely evil because they were anti smoking and big environmentalists....


otherwise i agree... light not always good
dark not always bad.
~W~

Dabbler, maybe the reason the author posted this thread was simply to get people thinking. As indeed, it really has.

Whether the taliban is pure evil or not wasn't my point. The point was, that it depends on which side you're on as to who's the terrorists.

From their point of view, the U.S. is pure evil.

it doesn't help that some of these people are zealots and they believe so hard in what they are doing,just like the old witch hunters.
they can't be reasoned with either but they do not consider themselves evil.
pure evil would acknowledge its evil and revel in it.
these guys are just religious lunatics that use very cruel and dark ways ( to everyone else anyway,to the brainwashed suicidal its probably a great honor)

war is both good and evil or neither sometimes. it depends on the situation and reason of the war and if the soldiers fighting are enjoying the killing and reveling in it and not caring about the reasons of war except for the slaughtering(which the said soldiers are enjoying) then they are Evil .hmm slaughtering.( i think i just drooled lol)

I am still curious as to what material, or resource was used by the threads starter. If in fact the intent was to'get people thinking'.

but one must also remember that each of us must hav. balance of all of those things. as the thesis of the yin and yang states with out good there can not be evil, with out darkness there can not be light so in ways how can a person state that they are any one of this things exclusivily, as in stating such things in ways would contradict the human persona and emotional traits of all living beings as it would be from this statement that woul mean that all living beings are mindless vessels wondering the earth waiting to die an return to th bosom of mothwr earth.

Still come down to a 'us and them' attitude. Past history has shown this to be survival based, then fear and later Ego. Other than the literal meaning of night and day, there is no other separation. Only the big G. No duality. All these light and darkness, good and evil separations come from our own ego. And then it is our own ego that tries to define them!

Pedophilia is a modern term for new rules. Men married 12-year-olds, and younger, a century ago in this country, and they still do in other countries. Girls were raised in harems, and were not left to grow up untouched. Boys, too. Innocence is a relative term.

Came across this in Paulo Coelho's blog:

The first story about the division between Good and Evil comes from ancient Persia. The God of Time, having created the universe, sees harmony all around him, but feels that there is still something very important missing, a companion with whom to share all this beauty.

For a thousand years, he prays for a son. The story does not say to whom he prays, given that he is omnipotent, the sole, supreme Lord; nevertheless, he prays and finally he becomes pregnant. When he realizes he has achieved his heart’s desire, the god of time is filled with remorse, suddenly conscious of how fragile the balance of things is. But it is too late and the child is already on its way. All he achieves by his lamentations is to cause the son he is carrying in his belly to divide into two.

The legend recounts that just as Good (Ormuzd) is born out of the God of Time’s prayers, so Evil (Ahriman) is born out of his remorse – twin brothers.

The concerned father arranges everything so that Ormuzd will emerge first from his belly, to take charge of his brother and to prevent Ahriman from throwing the universe into confusion. However, Evil, being very intelligent and resourceful, manages to push Ormuzd aside at the moment of their birth, and thus is the first to be born. Distraught, the god of time resolves to forge alliances on Ormuzd’s behalf; he brings into being the human race so that they can fight alongside Ormuzd and stop Ahriman from taking control of everything.

In the Persian legend, the human race is born to be the ally of Good and according to tradition, Good will triumph in the end.

Dark does not always mean evil, just as light does not always equal good

~P.C. cast

Well is it not possible that he came up with it himself?
Though I can't answer for him and such.


I agree with some of the others in the thread though. They're all very relative terms that we, as humans, came up with ourselves.

that we ourselves come up with or are taught,nay drilled into by sunday scholl christian ,catholic ....upbringings because honestly if we were left to our own devices could we honestly say our thoughts and actions wouldnt be different...who can actually say one way or another...we cant ...we can only give an opinion...or what we are taught to believe is right or wrong good or evil

true but it still comes down to the fact with in each of us there I good, evil, light, darkness. or without a balance of all of them we would b nothin more then empty shells, for it is from that in essence we gain our basic understanding of the world around us and our shall I say morality. as I believe that all of us in a time comes to a cross roads in the way of which pa we take,

I don't necessarily believe in a concept of good and evil. Of course I have my own morals, just like everyone else, but those ideals change from person to person. Good and evil are all products of ones perception, and the views of society as a whole. The ideas of good and evil commonly adhered to in this day and age are quite different from say, a thousand years ago. Even from one country to another what is right and wrong, or what is good or evil, changes.
Nature is chaos, not good, not evil. Nowhere in the known cosmos do such concepts exist beyond the imaginations of humans. Just my two cents on the subject.

Doctors, bankers insurance brokers and dubious investors, pensions and politicians are all good right? Really??? mmm

I think some folk on bad drugs, bad investments, corrupt advice and bent policies would beg to differ.

They are mostly just wanna be Vampires just really crap ones with no clue where they are going. Some are affluent and give to charity in meagre portions but I know I will be waiting with some of my kin who never had their choices...Grinz as they frown upon us.

How say you?

Dark and Light have absolutely nothing to do with Good and Evil. Considering one is elemental while the other is what the human mind conceives of what is socially acceptable and what isn't. That's all this boils down to.

Since when does "dark" have anything to do with what is "Evil" and isn't evil or bad things that come into our lives just a teacher to make us stronger that which we overcome? They are simply nothing more than guides no matter what side of the fence you side on.

People's natures have nothing to do with "light and dark" or "good and evil". It's just a perception.

the problem is to define good and evil / light and darkness.

one can always put together a chart from a role playing game...and if that works for you, well and good.

good evil light dark...all relative terms.

a samurai that had defeated his opponent would often behead him if he still lived. not in contempt but out of respect and compassion.
is that an evil act?

for me its a bit like what the supreme court said about pornography...i know it when i see it.

i call myself dark because i prefer physical darkness....i also am a very private person. my family and i dont work in the bright light of day...we keep to the shadows in a figurative sense.
we dont call attention to ourselves normally, and our embrace is enjoyed in the darkness....

that said, i rarely feel the need to pop the balloon of a child, or to push little old ladies into the street.

i think im a bit more complex than good and evil can express...and sometimes the shadows hide the most interesting things...to just burn the darkness away with bright light takes all the mystery from the world...

and personally i love a bit of mystery
~W~

there is no way that good = light and evil = dark except playing rpg games

reason is say a person grew up not knowing of love from its parents only hate and being abused does not mean that they will grow up to be evil . . .I grew up in a family like this my earliest memory is of my mom telling me she wishes I was never born, she abused me verbally mentally and physically and during my teens from the ex step father had in those years sexually abused me did I grow up to be evil No but do consider myself a person of darkness cause there are times I am afraid to step out into the light and show my scars and standing neutral as there are things that I did growing up I wish that never did

same as if a person who grew up whose parents showered them with love attention and not abuse does not meant that they are good. . .used to have a friend that grew up this way and attended church couple times a week, helped the elderly etc but he also had a evil side that got worse as he got older he liked to rip wings off of butterflies kick throw sticks stones etc at stray animals and when he entered his teens he started to hurt those that were weaker then him, steal etc he is now doing time for murdering a ex gf's boyfriend and the ex along with his own son 25 years ago and was given lifetime with no parole he chose to become evil he didnt have to go this route

it is up to the individual him/herself to choose if they are going to be evil or to be good but most of us are neutral we have done things that were wrong and did things that were good

real simple, there needs to be both without good there is no evil without evil there is no good without dark there is no light without light there is no dark. REAL SIMPLE BALANCE!

it really does come down to the fact that all sentient beings have a balance of good, evil, light, darkness. I am also reminded of the samurai in the sense of there feelings of that there lives must be balanced

The metaphor dark for evil, and light for good (holy)is trite.. Trite I tell ya, trite and arbitrarily abuse, and assigned in such petty ways.

dark=obscure
light= illuminated, illuminating

ive never understood the whole idea of
in order to have A, you must have B


to me thats like saying in order to have an apple, you must have an orange.

so in order to have someone help someone, you must also have someone hurt someone???

just doesnt seem logical when you consider it. the balence thing?
its not for so many negative points you need the same number of positive points.

where was the balance for hitlers death camps? or for stalins gulags? where was the balance for the little children that died when we were bombing the reich?
i dont think there is a balance..
i think that things just "are".
~W~

im following this with interest...'good' and 'evil' are subjective terms. my definition of 'good/evil' will be different to yours and in different situtations i will re-define my own opinions on the matter too.

i cannot agree that it is a distinct or clear-cut matter at all. i am far too complex to say i am either one or the other because circumstances and many other factors besides determine what i am and what i think.

LW makes a great point about the atrocities suffered by many in war (and in peace)...it got me thinking...normally i would have aid that all life has balance but there would have to be an infinite amout of 'good' to balance out all the terrible things that happen in this world.

LW,

Pessimistic people utilize that cliche to justify their negative obsession.

People who live miserable lives (unremarkable), and fail socially, fancy themselves "Dark" to avoid actualizing their lack of social development, and abundant personality flaws.