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Do you believe the stories people say when they have near death experiences and say they felt they saw heaven or hell, and if this is not truly what they are seeing, what is it?

With the numerous near death experiences I have had the only thing I have seen are my brown pants....Oh and it apperars to go in slow motion.

Are not most of the people who state they have these experiences spiritual?

What are referred to as NDEs, are often as varied as Dreams.

While I accept that some people need that comfort that it is seeing the "beyond" or "After Life" I accept it personally as soft ware, a Finally to occupy the mind away from the shutting down of the Body, a rapid on set dream.

I take offense when people insist that I should subscribe to their personal beliefs, just because they say they "witnessed" a "vision" of their after life. obviously what are referred to as ndes are very common, and I suspect that as medical science gets more adapt at resusitation they will become far more common, and far more varied.

So I am personally convinced people experience a very intense vision, I personally had mine. It fit my personal ideals, that which I subscribe to.

Yeah I am inclined to think that’s it possibly a vision/dream because of the shutting down of the body.

In other words body’s way of attempting to make the passing more pleasurable for the individual.

I, too, am highly skeptical of people's NDE descriptions of Heaven/Hell, etc.

Seems to me that it's a bit too convenient that all such coincide so perfectly with the each NDE person's own specific religious beliefs: Catholics see Saints, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, etc.; other Christian sects see personages and/or "celestial/infernal" landmarks specific to their beliefs; Moslems see Allah, Mohammed, etc. ... whatever fits perfectly with their own highly disparate religions.

As it seems rather ludicrous that post-mortal reality is simply a dream world specific to each individual's Earthly religious beliefs, the only logical explanation is that if such people actually did experience a true NDE, they were interpreting what they saw by their religious upbringing and culture.


There is, however, ONE TYPE of NDE that is not so easily explained and dismissed.

The one type of NDE I do find credible... highly credible, in fact... is that in which the person leaves their body, travels to locations on Earth beyond the sight of their body (e.g., floors above or below them in, say, a hospital, or miles from where their body lays), witnesses events and/or conversations, returns to their body after same has been revived, and accurately and verifiably describes in minute detail exactly what they observed to others that is then later proved to be identical with what actually happened elsewhere that they witness while out of body.

There are many documented cases of this latter type of NDE ... even from those who were literally braindead (flatlined EEG) at the time in addition to being physically dead (flatlined heart rate, etc.). Additionally, such NDEs are often witnessed by and verified by actual doctors and other medical personnel in attendance.

Thus, for me at least, this one type of NDE provides quite compelling evidence that indeed the consciousness, the true core identity of each of us is separate from the body and does not die with it.


- Upir'

Another physiologic response the body has is endorphins, I have triggered those endorphins to "get high", I noted a significant numbing, and detached feeling prior to interfacing with my vision.

Sadly, I suspect that pressure, and dogma aimed at people by fundamentalism's condemnation may suffice to imprint, or impress upon an individuals "software' in such a significant capacity as to panic the individual while they engage in their Finale Experience.

It could be reasoned that cluttering ones consciousness with multiple software, one could create clutter for "play back'.


A sensible perspective of ones faith serves a dying person well.

I have never had one. I have my own opinion on the matter, however if what I need to cope with a life and death situation is a vision of naked winged men, then so be it let that be real to me.

I do agree that for the most part it goes with what people see and feel in everyday life. personally I want to go out thinking and seeing myself having sex, thats just me though.

You Know TP..

I recall it being said that Orgasms are micro Deaths.

then I micro die alot

and I like it.

In that delicious context, I also have multiple NDEs daily, then. ;)

everyone should have micro NDE's on a daily basis

LOL oh no way Im laying my micro deaths out on the table.

Anyway, Fate,have you ever heard of DMT? I will post some information on it for you.I am also throwing another outlook other than dmt.I am not saying either way which one I advocate..I am only posting information.Enjoy.:)

My question has always been (even when I was active in faith), why impose ones expectation of the afterlife on others?

It would be like a kid walking down the street, and two people come along and ask.. "where do you believe you are going?" so the kid replies.. "I going to X' and they tell him.. "No your going about it all wrong.."

and even though the weather is hot, they tell him he needed a jacket, and if he does'nt know the language then he will get lost on the way. ..

worse is that if he keeps going that way people will throw rocks off buildings, and put him in the hospital..



What does proselytizer gain?

I suspect it is more to reinforce their security then altruism, or genuine concern.

note this is more a modal relative to fundamentalist, and people with practical faith mostly distinguish themselves from such zealotry.

Then their are the Pious.. who go out of their way to sway people to accept their experience as conviction beyond faith.. but that is breaching ToS.

Dabbler, I don't think you should force your views on anyone just because you disagree with someone else, because people need to have the individual right believe what they want.

Hey Fate,I died once.Froze to death and they found me in my car.It took took shocks and time in a themal bubble and about three months in the hospital to recover.I didnt see anything.I do remember fuzzily my mother slapping me hard on the butt...and she had been passed a year prior.There was also a hand print on my butt too and no one we asked ever hit me.So what it was,I have no clue.Other than that,there was nothing.

Dab,I will tell you that I for one really want there to be life after death.But I will also say that I cant fully believe it because I havent seen evidence of it other than whet we experience ourselves and what others might say.Maybe I lack faith.And maybe I just need a little more to go on than just testimony.

I've had numerous out of body experiences (OBE's ) , but i've never come close ot dying so i cant really comment on NED's . I do belive that these states are very close to the states you have in dream , it's very easy to slip from one into the other . I belive that dreams are the ramblings of the subconscious and that they can be brought close to a more everyday waking consciousness where the dreamer is in more controll over the events that unfold , but an OBE is not set in the construct of a dream . It usually takes place in the surrounding area of the dormant body . The main things that differentiate and OBE from a dream is the overwhelming realness and awareness you have . In a dreamstate you offten go through the dreams without the awareness that your even dreaming , but in an OBE your acutely aware of your disembodied self and your surroundings . Very often you wake up into your astral state and find your self actually leaving your body or floating very near to it .

I'am a firm beliver that my consciousness can exist outside of my body , but where i will go when my body ceases to exist i dont know , but i have a few plans .

"Dabbler, I don't think you should force your views on anyone just because you disagree with someone else, because people need to have the individual right believe what they want."

fate? I know how Dab puts things can sound pretty forcefull,but he has a right to post what he believes as well.And he can back it up.Just let it roll and get what lesson you can from it.
It isnt personal and in no way should prevent you from posting what you believe too.
Some experience the white light,some dont.And if there is an afterlife,I wonder why some see it and some dont.I know there will be those who say because youre in limbo,or whatever,But I am not one to follow one religion or another as far as their beliefs in heaven ,hell and purgatory and limbo.

Fate, I am not forcing anything, actually I am stating why I personally don't subscribe to after life ideals.

People have a right equally to not have beliefs.

I am curious why believers are offended when a person simply states their reasons for not subscribing to a set idealism.

I base my conclusion on personal experience, the same as a person who concludes their NDE to be divine, or celestial.

As I state, I can see how it is important for people to have a reasonable degree of devotion to a faith.

What I find appalling is the fundamentalist who impose upon others as if their is not other way then theirs. Such entities corrupt, and drag down those that are not devote converts.


You asked about alleged NDE Hell, that to me is being 'driven to hell" by the oppression of ones peers, and even family.


The mechanics of death are tested, more and more people are being revived after lengthy spells without physiological function support . If anything I hope to help a person find context for their faith, context, and application. rather then a banner to wave about.

Oceanne: I agree, I too WANT there to be something else besides this, it just seems so short and insignificant

number of points here...

yes...the french call orgasms le petite mort (pardon my spelling if i err, french not being my first lingo).


there may be a chemical reason for nde, and it can be recreated in a lab.

there are also pathologists, and nurses (one i personally know that works in a hospice) that think there is far more to it than that.


lastly...heaven...hell....i personally subscribe to something different...
i think when people actually do see heaven or hell, its because that is what they subscribe to.

personally i think that whatever we subscribe to, its going t be rather different on the other side.
~W~

LW - "there may be a chemical reason for nde, and it can be recreated in a lab."

Where NDEs reporting visions of heaven or of passed-on loved ones, I agree that such might be chemically induced or simply the hallucinations of a dying brain.


However... no chemical reason can explain any of the following examples of NDEs:

Example 1: An elderly woman had been blind since childhood. But, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation of her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.

Example 2: One patient told Moody, After it was all over the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, Yeah, I know.' He said, Well, how do you know?' and I said, I can tell you everything that happened.' He didn't believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn't know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.

Example 3: In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.

- http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html


- Upir'

The information is really compelling Upir and there are more where those came from.And this is exactly why I cannot discount it .

I believe this is one of those things where either you believe in it or you don't you could come up with reasons why the person in question is knowing this stuff, perhaps they are faking? perhaps their spirits leave their bodies and see some stuff or perhaps they go to a different plane of existence, there are several possible answers

Among those is a biochemical cocktail.

Personally, for me my Finale was most Phenomenal, and reassuring. I would hope that everyone has such a personal affirmation when they encounter death. An uncluttered, untainted send off is all we can ask. Make the most of faith, exercise personal development. Avoid confronting others on theirs, realize that it is not required, and some don't feel obliged to validate what others choose. Because in the End, Dieing is a personal experience.

Is anyone really impressed by every testimony delivered? Not really.

Ahhh, the euphoria of the brain. Most of the people who claimed to have Near Death Experiences always are coming from the operation room of a hospital, and let me tell you, those lights, are powerful. (wink) so, my humble opinion, death will not let you have a glimpse of his/her domain. So, no, Near Death Experiences do not happen and do not exist.

This is pretty interesting...
I have to admit while read through the read the orgasm section threw me off a bit. lol

but I always wondered... I know this will be unfortunate of the person having to deal... but who was the man/ woman who experienced the most of these NDEs in one lifetime...

[I can't help but to think of the man who was struck my lightning multiple times in his life....]

upir, please dont misunderstand me...
it was not my intent to say all ndes are just the result of chemical changes in a dying brain, but any means.

i was only saying that some may be.
while i havent experienced such myself, ive known too many health care professionals that firmly believe in the "next world" based on what their patients have related.

(i posted this before, but it vanished!)
~W~

Well i do belive in near death experinces. I havent had one but i have had dreams of the end ot the world and how it looks. I believe everyone has something to offer in this world. Some even come forth with there beliefs and thoughts to what they experince and what will occur.

i do wish someone on here had experienced a nde.

i would enjoy reading of first hand experiences.
~W~

Anecdotal accounts, by themselves, are of little value given that anyone can say or claim anything.

The only such accounts that provide true evidence one way or the other are those that give verifiable details, such as those previous presented in which while out of the body the "spirit"/"soul" witnessed events and conversations far from the body and when revived was able to relate all such in minute detail that was then fully verified by others.


- Upir'

I can tell you of one, and that is my husband.
At the age of seventeen he was thrown out of
a car. He states he seen his body lying on the road.
He heard a voice that said we are not ready for him yet.
Then he felt the pain of the impact of what the accident
caused his body.

My husband's church is when he is fishing, and watches nature around him. That is were he finds his peace within him. As for reading anything on NED's or obe's
he does'nt. As for his religious views...I have no idea.
For as he says he has his own views and I am free
to explore mine.
The event he has only spoken of as once.
As for my take on the subject...it will always be
one of controversy.

upir, i agree that for purposes of conducting a scientific investigation, there would have to be a controlled environment ect, but for the purposes of informal discussion (which is obviously what vr is all about) then even second and third hand accounts are of interest.

personally if you have experienced something yourself id love to read your account. if you know someone that has, it is still of great interest to me.

~W~

Near death experiences, when i was a child in Montana i was ice skating on a frozen pond at my grandfathers place, when i fell in< i do not remember much but awoke on the bank some distance off, do not know how or what got me there, but I did, in some lives we seem to have them so much with the amount of technology in the world, every step is now a life or death situation.