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Yep, I read all that...it's funny though, you can find a LOT of stuff about Michelle, but almost nothing about Fr. Sebastian. A lot of what I found about him has been negative comments from the vampire community.

Anyway, so while it clearly states when the real vampire community developed their Code, I've had a bit more difficulty finding when the V:tM game started. All I can find is that it may have been the early nineties...at the very least, the game won an award in 1992...but 'the early nineties' is the same time period real vampires had this code.

So which came first, man? People like to say that the fetish community gave rights to the game, but in researching the game, I've found nothing of the sort.

That response only furthers my confusion at why real vampires would be angered or distressed by the vampire archetype in movies and fiction. Bellanger clearly states that VtM as well as the gothic culture and even early vampire fiction television is really responsible for the adoption of the term vampire and the style of both the Black Veil and the Codex if not it's actual content.

In reference to the email Michelle sent that I posted here- she also sent along this scan:

We get a kick ass thread going here... and people don't want to join in on the convo :(

Before this ends up on the second page- *bump*

Now to me, you can't go showing off a sharp Ankh necklace without giving some props to The Hunger with Bowie. That movie not only began to break down barriers between myth and reality (no sharp teeth on these vamps) but also a great crossover between showing the regular lives of day walking vampires...was The Hunger the closest thing we've seen in film to sanguinarians? And The Hunger did start a great trend of wearing ankhs...you can evidently even get the ones with the little blades in them.

i have read a book about bellanger but i see no real proof of what she claims and why anyone would write a bokk as she has, i think completely fictional

I would actually argue that much of art parallels life experiences, after all why does it move us? So to hear that there are bits of fiction that have opened the door to ideas used in real life, is that really so bad? In most religions teacher teach through stories or parables, why not here too?

Does it make the truth of the belief less valid? I personally do not think so. I think the truth of a message is far more important than the reality of the words used to create the message.

okay raziel- so you personally think psychic vampirism is completely fictional?

How could The Black Veil be completely fictional? It's simply a code- a set of ethics for vampires to follow if they choose to. There's nothing fictional about these 'laws' that many abide by. It's quite a reality.

Anyhow- that's not what this thread was about- it's about the history of a vampire code beyond Michelle, Father Sebastian, and V:tm.

That is awesome, Images! It's a really compelling insight into how the vampire community got started. Who would think, that perhaps due to the popularity of V:tM, the Rave might never have come into being.

I think Raziel is entitled to his opinion...certainly he shares it with Jack. :) It is interesting to note though, that in Image's post with Michelle's response, Michelle clearly states that the Code was derived from V:tM. So while the game is completely fictional, what was adapted is not, as real people use it.

So for me, that begs the question; Raziel, did you read that post?

I didn't mean that last post to sound bitchy, and I'm sorry. What I was trying to figure is to what extent Raziel thinks it is fiction? (I had just gotten off work, and had an extremely interesting last two hours of it.)

I think that this thread is still a bit of a mine field and as such, I just love skipping through mine fields :)

Here's my take on the Black Veil and the Codex. Writing about something that is real, does not make the author's intentions pure. I won't begin the argument of vampires as a reality. The society and organizations that make up the brotherhoods don't need proof for themselves and therefore it matters not. I do have some issues with an author of gothic fiction and poetry, producing a work that continues to use dramatic and narcisistic gothic imagery but claims a sense of prophecy and suddenly finds herself 'the high priestest' of a vampire clan. The fact that it has been followed up with a revival of her previous work and a revival of a previously defunct magazine as well as a fair amount of fame in the gothic community including gothic photo shoots and backup singing in a gothic band, imply that the fruits of this labor have been squandered on cheap thrills and theatrics in becoming a living 'vampire legend'.

I fully admit that my views have been drawn not from personal interaction but from reading her work and seeing her self promotion. Again it's not that I find the subject unbelievable...I just find the use of her noteriety rather wanting and selfserving for a 'high priestess'. I found Anton LaVey to be just as lacking in credibility on another very credible subject (modern satanism).

FelixFelix- those are valid points I hear from many.

Too bad no one out there on VR who is actually a 'subscriber' (as Arunima puts it) to the Black Veil is actually taking part in this conversation.

I feel this is one of the more interesting topics brought to the General Forum in a while- but too little too late for the many that are tired of the lame and RPG that go on here.

FelixFelix:

I can see how a leader of the vampiric community should have a duty to uphold a certain, 'correct' image. Then again, it is of course up to said leaders, and said leaders are also human beings. I certainly couldn't say for sure that I personally would give up a chance to sing in a band because of the position I held...I mean, that's just freakin' cool. Haha!

But I do see what you mean. The vampiric community doesn't need anymore Lestats.

My question to you, then, is what should a leader of the vampiric community do? Just act normal? What would you do in their position?


imagesinwords:

It is a shame, isn't it? I would love to see Veil subscribers participate in this thread. I don't know what else I can do, though, unless I offer to pay them, and I'm greedy. :)


Come on, guys. I don't bite. ;) Tell me what you think of the history of the Veil and the Codex.

Truly, it's not simply the act of success that cheapens the idea in this case. I don't know how she's doing financially. I was a singer in a goth band. I was very much into the style and trappings of that community. But I knew where I stood.

The Black Veil talks of discretion and making sure that you do not flaunt what you are. "Your actions will reflect on the rest of the community". So how does that square itself with the writer of the Black Veil reenacting photo shoots with her as the 'nightly predator vampire' feeding on the virginal bride like some Bela Lugosi film clip. How can she support the idea of someone going on a reality show and acting the total fool of a goth vampire like Don Henrie. They appear to try and promote a vision of themselves as real mythological vampires with the language and the dark imagery and dramatic photography. Which would be fine if you weren't also trying to promote vampirism as a serious and valid spiritual path.

If she didn't have so much involvement with the Veil (the rewrites and promotion of it), then I wouldn't see such hypocrisy in those actions. The end result is like that of a televangelist but for vampirism. All showy and special effects and money making, but without the actual spirit of what was written.

images- i do see that there is nothing fictional about the veil or the code, and its great that those believers have a religion to follow, as for me many say they are psychic vampires as i also believe in these gifts as i have some myself, but as far as what they claim to do, i have asked many vr members to prove it to me and they all seem to back out i truely want to believe there is such, infact i would pay someone to do the proposed "energy draining"

I don't want to turn this into some kind of attack on the belief of energy vampirism. I know it's not my thread and every opinion is valid be it for or against the belief in something but I just don't want to see the dominars lining up on the hillside...

I think we've been doing a good job of focusing on the Veil and also the author of the Veil.

Teehee!
Raziel, you're talking about something I actually tried to do. I made a thread asking for someone to prove their vampirism and I would buy them a premium membership.

Ah, that thread got RIA'd. Apparently people don't take kindly to being so bluntly challenged.

As far as all that goes, I can see why. Vampirism as a 'spiritual path', as FelixFelix put it, would be something much more subtle and harder to prove. That would be like asking me to prove to you God exists. I sure as hell can't do that, but at the same time, I sure as hell can't rid myself of that faith.

I'm sure this reply would be have been better, had I not been so hungover at the moment. Oh well.

That's the general idea Arunima. I'm not here to challenge faith. My point is that given the rather quizzical behavior of the writer which might seem to contradict the writing, why would anyone else give the Veil so much weight over other vampire philosophies or beliefs. If the idea of the Veil is to give seriousness and credibility to vampirism, why does the author act in such a dramatic way as to nearly discredit it herself.

*bump*

Hopefully more people take an interest in this thread. Rather you are a fan of Michelle Belanger's or not, I know Michelle responded to Heidi knowing this information/input was for Vampire Rave.

I appreciate the effort Nihonin but it appears at times that discussing these aspects of the Codex or the Black Veil appear to be almost too much for many to handle. People don't often like to discuss the in depth reasoning behind their faiths but prefer instead to simply believe. Perhaps many view discussion of the Codex or Veil as an act of breaking the Veil...though the writer of the Veil apparently doesn't.

Some have discussed it at length before now, I just haven't been able to locate the threads, but no matter.

I wouldn't wish to cause further offence myself, but I still have unanswered questions relating to the veil and it's basis. These can only be answered by a specific few, but until then, I see it currently as one more variance on age old sets of wisdom.

This is just like any other type of faith. Faith in one god or another, faith in the system, faith, at the very core, in being right. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong, or in this case, not that they are wrong, but that the origin of the faith is different than what they have been led to believe. The ideas themselves are faultless.

I wish to what God there may be that those who openly discussed this topic before would see this and understand that nobody is insulting them, nobody is trying to say they are role-players in disguise, and nobody is asking them to change who they are.

All I ask is that people are openly honest with themselves and with the truth.

Yeah, pretty much, Strigocia.

You might have joined us a little too late too see it, but what inspired this thread was the fact that someone posted something like three or four threads discussing the different aspects of the Veil; what it means, whether it's okay to discuss them even on VR, etc, etc.

A lot of people responded to these threads, speaking as people who know it and follow it in their daily lives.

'Susannah' has pretty much ever been a respresentation of myself and how I really feel, with Jack and Elroy providing the polar opposites that do occur in my own mind. I was the one who actually spoke with one of the more active posters to these threads. And the guy did tell me that the document that was supposed to prove that vampires gave rights to the game may have been a fake....and that he still believed it was true.

That I could not abide by. I can't just sit back and watch people lie to themselves and watch others be lied to.

Exactly, and as I stated before, there is nothing wrong with the ideas themselves. They are pretty good ones, actually.

What I am trying to battle here are not the people who live by these rules, but ignorance of the origon of the rules.

Right, but perhaps the approach might be construed as an attack agianst the idea, by those who are predisposed to a defensive attitude?

and are they (the tenets), not universal truths themselves?

But brought together and given meaning to the vampyre community. I guess thats what you are saying?

Pretty much, yes. And as I'd said, when it comes to defensive attitudes, you'll find those attitudes with pretty much anything that requires faith. When it comes to the origon of these rules, many have faith that they were in place before the game, which not true.

In short, there is no getting around raising some hackles. It's unfortunate, but the hope is that the ones with upright hackles will actually read what has been written here and understand that nobody is trying to attack them. I'm just trying to raise awareness of how the rules they live by came into being.

The pre-revised version of "The Black Veil" was stolen, almost completely from the game. Yes, they have rewritten and shortened them since, but that still doesn't take away my disgust for them. Basicly, if someone has to write out common sense, and then tell me they are rules that must be followed, they should recieve a boot to the head.

Also, White Wolf released the first addition of Vampire the Masquerade in 1991. Sabretooth didn't write "The Black Veil" until 1995 (claimed copywrite date).

*bump*

Ars magica predates the White Wolf World of Darkness, and is where most of it's color comes. I believe that vampires in the world of darkness was a spinoff of this 1988 game and so it is likely that the Veil is probably not even the intellectual property of white wolf. Perhaps indeed some vampire subculture was playing ars magica and at that point codified a form of vampire conduct. I supose one could just ask the developers of white wolf where the concept of the veil/traditions came from.

From the other side of the coin, I remember there was an incident of people biting other people (back when the scarecrow fangs were porcelin suposedly) in a club. I remember gamers being mortified that someone would be so stupid as to do this. If it were widely known about sangues at the time, I supose that the disclaimers that started to show up in the games would be quite different than they are today. Indeed, the stigma attatched to those games would be more squarely placed apon this community.

Perhaps the veil has had it's intended effect after all.

Just to put my two cents into this...I have actually been a member of a (largely vampiric) house IRL for about 10 years now. Not all of the members of this house are vampires, but it is a vampiric house, and it has been around for about 300 years. I don't want to go too much into that, as I do not speak for the house, but we have our own veil that we follow, and we are required to follow it to remain members of the house. It is not a house based on religion, as members are of many different religions, and it is not a cult. The vampiric community has been around for a long time, long before V:tM, and there are veil much older than the black veil, but I believe they are specific to a house, or coven, not an overall veil for all vampires to follow. I will say that I think V:tM and teh black veil did help bring the vampiric community to a more publicly recognized status, and I see nothing wrong with someone adopting the ideal of the Black Veil for there own life, but as for me, my first loyalty is with my house, and it's veil.

It's threads like these where I realize I'm not all that insane lol...

Sith,

Hahaha... hah....ha...h... :|

I think my final gripe with The Black Veil is not about what it is, but it is how it was put out there. A few of us here have stated how The Veil brought the Vamprie community to the public. Hello? Is this thing on? Isn't that one of the major points that it stresses? You are not supposed to bring it to the public.

/Hops off of soapbox
//FIN

haha, I didn't know it said that Strigocia, I haven't read the whole thing, as I follow the veil of my house, and that is the only veil that matters to me...that is pretty funny.

Agreed Strigocia, they should not be making it public. However, whenever a certain belief system gets either

1. Too big that they can’t control their members
2. Too small that they actively recruit members

You will find many blabber mouths. Granted there are those at the rave who view this place as a safe place to post since it is a site about Vampires. It is still public.

As for the Veil being constructed from a game I think the line from the movie V is appropriate, “Actors use lies to tell the truth.”

I do not hold the ideals less from where they come. I hold them less because the people that hold them do not follow them.

I had not ever heard of any of this yet it is very interesting and I will check it out cause it has caught my attention seriouly