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This is a quote from the Christian magazine "The Watchtower," November 15 2005, it explains the Devil:

Long before Jehovah God created humans, he made a multitude of spirit creatures. (Job 38:4, 7) In the Bible these sprits are called angels. (Hebrews 1:13, 14) God called them all perfect - not a single one was a devil or had any evil trait. How did the Devil come to be? Just as a formerly honest man makes himself a thief by stealing, one of the perfect spirit sons of God acted upon an improper desire and made himself Satan the Devil. The bible explains the process of self-corruption this way: "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire, when it becomes fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." - James 1:14, 15.

And Daermon: if satanism is considering the self as the only power, how is that not a blueprint for self-corruption.

Please, for those who would like to reply, please remember the technical terms :)

The word "devil," means "slanderer" and thus refers to someone who tells malicious lies about others. "Satan" means "Resister," or opposer.

i actually just have a question. didnt lucifer become the devil, cause he was jealouse of the humans and desired a soul like the them and therefor rebelled against god?

or did i just watch too many movies? lol

I was taught of it like that too.

wow i love that article verry verry interesting do let me knwo if u come up with anymore, for some reason i was allways facinated by satinism but then my mother was a big satanist to so kinda runs in my family

satan, to me is the inner demon which makes the pain feel less agonising and makes it that much more pleasurable. i dont beleive in the bible, i see it as a fairy tale that has led people beleiving such rubbish for centuaries. i say, let them get on with it.

Kat writes

I actually just have a question. didnt Lucifer become the devil, cause he was jealous of the humans and desired a soul like them and therefore rebelled against God?

That is a good question Kat, and the Watchtower article answers your question in the very next paragraph. This is apparently what happened.

When Jehovah God created the first human pair, Adam and Eve, the angel who was about to rebel against God took note. He knew that Jehovah commanded Adam and Eve to fill the earth with righteous people, who would worship the creator. (Genesis 1:28) This angel saw that there was a possibility that he could gain honor and importance. Motivated by greed, he coveted what rightly belongs only to the creator - worship from humans. Instead of rejecting such an improper desire, this spirit son of God nurtured it till it gave birth to a lie and then to rebellion.

hmmm, that makes me think and come to the conclusion that lucifer was kind of the first human :) he wasnt perfect and neither are we.
Don't most people want something badly they cant have? like more money, more love, health, looks, etc.

i dont believe in the whole bible thing. for me its just a nice story book with some morals. But i have to say that Lucifer is far more likeable with his faults then the oh so pure god. (no offence to the people who actually believe in god and the bible)

kind of sad that we sometimes have to write little disclaimers in a thread, cause we have to fear to get stoned for our different believes, even here.

No sympathy for the devil LOL

i follow occult, meaning, that satan can be represented as a symbol. it gives me honour to celebrate all of the festivals and make all of the sacrificial offerings.
i am proud to wear his symbol around my neck.

dmoreton writes:

i follow occult, meaning, that satan can be represented as a symbol. it gives me honour to celebrate all of the festivals and make all of the sacrificial offerings.

i am proud to wear his symbol around my neck.

The article continues:

Man's sprititual inclination has led him to explore the unknown. This has exposed him to another of Satan's deceptive devices. Exploiting man's curiosity about what is strange and mysterious, Satan has used spiritualism to bring many under his control. As a hunter uses bait to attract his prey. Satan employs such devices as fortune-telling, astrology, hypnotism, witchcraft, palmistry, and magic to attract and entrap people around the world. (Leviticus 19:31; Psalm 119:110)

article schmarticle, of course they are biased- they are strictly Christian. We are not here to pass judgement, not in the forum anyway.

Miz- 'innocently quoting someone else'. As long as it is kept that way ;)

i agree with kat, thats what i t hought to.

may i just say, i am not in anyway christian, never have and never will be. satan flows in my blood!

LostSoulsTragedy writes:

I agree with kat, that's what I thought to.

How do you agree with Kat?

That a perfect angel became Satan the Devil because he gave into the desire for self-exaltation? You know he also awakened in Eve a proud, selfish longing to be like God. Don't alway agree with Kat, Kat has a soft spot for the bad boy.

Buddy boy, I pray a lot! Just spare me! :P

lol!

I have never read the bible, I am not part of any organised religion. I do believe in positive and negative energies which surround us daily and try to influence us to lead a good/bad life, call this god or the devil if you want. I do not know what or why this is, and I don't think anyone does, I mean it could all be a massive chess game for the powers that be for all we know!!

See, I think sin comes about by love, just for the wrong things. The bible says you're love should be towards God and formost, therefor it's a sin to love gold more then God, it's a some to love sexy more then God, and a Sin to love ones self more then God. And that is what made the angle fall from what I remember, loving himself more then God. So sin is little more then love for the wrong things

I agree with most of the posts, Most people viewed me as a Satanist when I tore apart my bible, but when they asked my why I had done it, all I could say was: because their is no sin...

Lucifer did rebel in heaven, and was there for cast into the fires of hell where he asumed the title of Dark Lord, and yes it was because he wanted a soul of his own, and to be loved in gods eyes as humans were.

see sin is just a word used to describe actions that "god fearing" religions deem sacraligious.

for example: Vampyres drink blood (most of us), Christians see that as a sign of a blood bond with Lucifer... tell me What is Sin?

I thought michelle the fallen angel, was lucifer, or the devil, who rebeled agianst god....

But from what I understand (not just from the article posted, but other sources as well) angels we're created without free will. If this is so, then how could they deviate, especially if they only knew and could learn what they were told?

Of course I could just be going crazy and getting my info mixed up.

Miz - You've set up the argument to limit the free flow of debate. You've required that within your rules, Satan be interpreted in a strict biblical interpretation (and really on an even more strict Jehova's Witness intrepretation) wherein Satan is an actual intelligent being with powers over man. Satanists often disregard the existence of a 'devil' figure so you've shut them out of the argument.

You've also used Watchtowers (Jehova's Witness publication) as factual support which not everyone will consider a legitimate reference source. Most importantly, you've used the bible as a factual document of divine inspiration which is also highly debatable. How am I supposed to argue the nature of sin if you've already seen fit to establish the bible as factual and literal. Of course if we are required to accept the bible as literal historical fact and therefore real and literal prophecy, than being a Satanist would be both foolish and self-destructive. But Satanists do not necessarily agree to the bible's accuracy or it's prophetic accuracy.

I respect those that are christians but i fail to see how I should be expected to debate the nature of satan, sin or evil if you've already set those down as rules.

Images - I apologize if I seemed to have jumped the gun but I frown upon use of the bible as a definitive or even definitively interpreted text. It's impossible as you've said, given the sheer number of different christian sects to try and establish a final interpretation of Satan and sin. Some of those sects that also call themselves christian, view characters such as the Devil or Satan as metaphorical and others as literal figures. While I sympathize with Miz for taking on such a tough and broad subject as this, it seemed like the ideas were being rather narrowly answered on a biblical sense without actually listening to the alternative view points.

No problem at all, FelixFelix :) I just want you to feel able to participate here just as anyone else. There are so many different points of view, it's good to hear them all- in my opinion anyway.

FelixFelix writes:

[Miz interprets] Satan is an actual intelligent being with powers over man

The Scriptures portray the Devil as a real person. The Devil is a spirit creature. Unlike the Creator, however, the Devil had a beginning. There was no Devil until the first lie. I continue to quote from this article:

The rebellious angel used a serpent to speak to the first woman, Eve. "Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?" the serpent asked Eve. When Eve cited God's command and the penalty for disobeying it, the serpent declared: "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from [the tree in the middle of the garden] your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad." (Genesis 3:1-5)

That was the first lie ever spoken. Telling it made that angel a slanderer. The Bible identifies the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan."

I found the thread very interesting and informative. I however do not believe in satan or god. But learning is a great thing. Thank you for the insight.

The Watchtower is not a christian publication. It is published by the Jevoahs Witnesses. This is a not a christain group, but rather a "christian" cult. Just as the pagans were once lured into christianity but the way it was made familiar to them (holiday and some practices), many of todays cults lure new members in by professing the seemingly innocous nature of chrisianity while having a very different agenda.

you know i don't think i really believe in satan. well, in a way i don't. at my church (my parents make me go.....lol.) they always say that it is satans fault when you do bad things.....oh no no no, i don't think so. it is not satan that made you do the bad deed, it was your self. you have control over your self. saying that satan made you do that.....once again, i don't think so... i think it is just an excuse that christians use to get them selves out of trouble when they do something bad....lol.

the way i have read into the one called god and its counter part representation.

they apear in the three books on the subject (torah, koran, bible) to be simular.

this god of the books, has killed (great flood) has dictated (given commands that MUST be obied) in one book has raped and coherst to commit adaultry (mary becomeing pregnant while being maried, and not haveing the choice to say she did not wont to be impregnated) in two of the other books this got that has been claimed to give all humans a chance, retracts that by claiming that only those of that book are the ritefull ones.

now without going of on a tangent here, this gods oppersit is claimed to be evil, yet it has less damaged the humans that the so called god has.

i was tort that the greatest form of aknowlegement one could give, is to act like the one you wish to praise. so if i was to act in a so calledc god like way would i be seen less or more like satan, would i be more evil or less evil as a dictator, a rapist, a murderer as i acted god like compaerd to the so called oppersit one.

i was once told that god created the angels with equeal power, and like a body biulder uses waights to get bigger so did one of the angels, exercise its power becomeing stronger, then one day god set this angel a task. this angel told god were to get of and repleid for god to get some other lacky to do his dirty work for him. there then ensured a great battle between god and this angel, a battle that this angel eventualy one as he had trained to do so. god then grabbed a handfull of what he created and bugged out before the angel destroyed it once and for all. humans are now trapped in this angels world, and it is this angel that set before mankind all the roadblokes that have then liveing and dieing without the sence of eden. this angel has done this so humans do not find there true power bestowed upon then by god, and exercise this power to take the angel down as it had done to god. and the visions that pop up every now and then is god slipping in under the angels guard, just trying to let humans know it has not forgotten them.
remember this is but one more story out there and in it there is no evil one (satan/devil/ ect)

cheers

i really wish that these so called religious people would do their home work.

satan and the devil are not the same person......or Angel. they are 2 seperate beings.

they are 2 of the higher lords of hell with Lucifer being thee high lord.

this misconception really just ticks me off.

very interesting that you should single me out at the start of this miz...and then go on to only use PART of what i described as satanism..
if your going to quote me do it properly..
My referencing satanism as a belief as the self as the only power does not say that it doesn't lead to corruption...I never said I was a satanist...in fact I am quite far from that mold...
what I said is simply the way satanists see themselves....
as I have pointed out in many different threads on the topic the term satanism as used by Anton LaVey is in fact a misnomer.
he was using the name as a form of free publicity for at the time any occult bases were being labelled under satanism....
many still are...

But back to the thread
"God called them all perfect - not a single one was a devil or had any evil trait."

after this statement they go on to say how one was actually imperfect, therefore showing either that god is himself imperfect, for being wrong in that they were all perfect,
or that the bible itself has been misrepresented and therefore loses it's worth as the word of god....
and really.....there are very few people who consider a jehovas witness rag as actual scripture....even most christians avoid that particular group....I grew up in a very open and yet christian household...have read the bible a few times...and agree with large portions of it....but i also acknowledge that it has a very bad habit of self contradiction....showing it's truly false nature as the word of god..
it might have been the word of god....before it passed through the flawed creature that is man.....and then been hidden and mistranslated for 2000 years.

kwinks writes:

It is not Satan that made you do the bad deed, it was yourself. You have control over your self.

Satan made you do the bad deed, but there is good news in the Bible: You can succeed in resisting the Devil. The article continues:

"Oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7) Even if you oppose Satan, he will not give up immediately and refrain from causing you any trouble as you take in knowledge of God. The Devil will try again at "another convenient time." (Luke 4:13) However you need not be afraid of the Devil. If you continue to resist him, he will not be able to turn you away from the true God.

Phear continues:

This God of the [divinely inspired] books, has killed (great flood) has dictated (given commands that MUST be obied) in [the old testament] book has raped.

Many of the things in the old testament I do not understand. Little children being torn limb from limb by bears, seems a sort of extreme divine punishment, for teasing Elijah because he is bald. (2 Kings: 23-24) I just look at it that the Lord backs his administrators no matter how fucking wrong they are.

Phear concludes:

Humans are now trapped in [the rebellious] angel's world, and it is this angel that set before mankind all the roadblocks that have them living and dieing without the sense of Eden. This angel has done this so humans do not find there true power bestowed upon then by God.

That is a good summary of the Old Testament. The New Testament brings the good news that there is a way of finding eternal life.

you know, I feel bad in exposing certain "truths about the Christian bible that we already know...about its various authors and various printings; it seems irrelevant and almost "scrappy" that someone should choose a "fringe element" from which to promote scripture without any independant supporting evidence. I am going to do the same thing here that I do to all Jehovah's Witnessness'....uhhh..slam the door in your face.

Daermon writes:

But back to the thread "God called them all perfect - not a single one was a devil or had any evil trait." After this statement they go on to say how one was actually imperfect.

No! An angel had an improper thought.

Right through theology is the knowledge that thoughts and words are powerful. (You as a witch exploit that knowledge to make your spells.) God called them all perfect, his word made them all perfect. Later an angel had an improper thought and made himself imperfect.

Isn't it funny how Christians do not dismiss witchcraft, because they know the power of thought and word. Power enough to make the perfect, imperfect.

All I can really say on this is-

***DISCLAIMER: My post is full of opinions as well as fact, take it as you see fit, no more no less.***

1. If you came here to preach the Watchtower- leave, I consider preaching your religion AT ME a form of harassment and I will respond like any animal that is threatened.

2. The Watchtower has been PROVEN both in and out of the Jehovah's Witness "group" as a politically derivate of Christianity for their own ends. GO reread why the Catholics are still the only Christians who use a pre-KJ bible.

3.Lucifer (Satan being just another alias to me, IMHO ) was a fallen angel who was cast out of Heaven by God for the sin of Pride. He sought to be loved better than the humans he became jealous of. Most Theologic historians can back this up consistently...

4. In reference to Christians understanding the Pagan use of words etc, - DUH!!! Thats why they borrowed and converted half of their emblems and holidays to help convert people back in the early 200-300s AD!! It got people to listen when they wouldnt!!


Thank you, I am signing off now lol

On the note of the JW's and the Watchtower. They do not use the bible, they quote from "New World Translation of the holy Scriptures", so the quotes from the article arn't even from the bible. Second, JW's don't even believe in the trinity or that jesus was God, they profess that he was the archangel Michael. Which makes them, as was state in a previous response, not even christians but a cult.
I agree with my friend Wolfcry, Preach somewhere else.

so true. preach to those who care (sorry but i cant see the point in this thread)
find a colony of over the top christians to play with..

I started to read what was said about Satanism on here, it was short on depth, ideas and musicality. Sadly it still is. Ideas in the Watchtower magazine were thought provoking. If you are not interested, then go and watch Foamy the squirrel - I don't give a flying-fuck!

As for preaching: I am not preaching, I just read widely, and I am certainly not on any mission to save any of you.

From what i have read here you all belive ni something god, saten,( devil )or somethign else which is strictly related and found origins in books.

Here i understand that the effect of this influences are working on the poeples mind therefore is difficult to discusse such a hot topic.
the way i see it is that long time ago before even god was mentioned in some book or the devli was even there poeple still used to live in bad and in god they are justpatterns of our behavour and we still try to seek a greater power in which w ehave to belive. non of you have ever tought that all this is just human imagination? or answers to things and events that we can't understand just the fact that you desire bad is of non sens and just the fact that same one loves others wath ever the others do to him is non sens niether.

Every individual belives in different things and different things happen in life. he way i see it we are our own gods and demons and we make them live in our mind . If you only had to act rightly you will see that everythign comes right along and if you act badly them you wwill see that many things comes bad in life ( for any action there is an equal and an oposite reaction ) from everythign my frineds xample if i help an old lady to cross the street she mighte help me in the future if she dosen't them is up to her but in my self i have no worries that i didn't help others being part of today social communitys brings us to state thatw e are one single mind from millions of individuals which all of us have right and wrong in there being .

Regards to all and start thinking out of the shell we are into.

Leave it to someone from Malta to bring peace back to a thread.

Miz, dude- I think to continually quote 'The Watchtower' is not such a hot idea. I know you are not a preacher, but no one else would be the wiser from this thread.

If we could just reply on the first post as usual in a thread and continue in conversation- without constant interjection from 'The Watchtower'- we might be okay.

Let's stay away from the nonsense 'Foamy the Squirrel and flying-fucks'. I know you are not easily offended, but you easily offend. You know the deal.

The Bible has a view of Satan- each Judeo-Christian sect has their own idea, Satanist have an idea, they are all allowed because they are personal views/understandings.

I don't want to have to RIA this thread and lose the effort I put into my posts. It's not hard to get along, really.

Discussions of the differences of Lucifer/ Satan and others have been done. This thread, as I see it, is nothing but bashing the Watchtower beliefs. Granted they're all nuts, the building is just around the corner from me, this site is not the place for it. People should place they efforts elsewhere.

MstJuan writes:

[it] is difficult to discuss such a hot topic.

Most threads are hot topics; Christian threads are moreso.

Long time ago, before even God, people were good and bad.

Here is a quote from "The Human Story," by Robert Dunbar (Robert Dunbar is the Professor of Evolutionary Pscychology at the University of Liverpool.)

Religion would seem to be a universal trait among humans. Every human tribe that has ever been encountered has some form of belief in a spirit world and most (but maybe not all) have some sense of an after life.

There is no time before God. We are the only species to have religion and believe in a parallel world. We are happiest with religious belief, it even stimulates the production of endorphins in brain.

And for y'all who've got lost this is the thesis of the thread:

The Devil has observed humans since the creation of mankind. He knows man's makeup - his needs, his interests, and his desires. Satan is well aware that man was created with a spiritual need, and the Devil has cleverly exploited this need, by feeding mankind lies.

truly the devil ’s greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist

i was always taught that Lucifer was beautiful, but why does everything i've heard about him make him look red and ugly?

I think that man made the devil up because he needed a scapegoat to pass off the responsibility for bad moral judgement. By blaming man's imperfection and therefore his sins on a deed that he was 'fooled' into committing millenia ago, mankind is able to be a victim instead of a responsible free thinking group of beings who can make good or bad choices with far reaching consequences.

To imply that mankind can never solve his problems without the help of some divine source of help is a cop out on human responsibility. It gives us an out to just let things happen because without some gods help, it won't work anyway. That's not a knock at any religion in particular (JW's included - because I don't believe them to be anymore a cult than Catholics)...but a knock at organized religion in general.

I believe that Sin and Satan are man's responsibility alone. I think we made both and we should own up to it and start acting like the intelligent responsible species we claim to be.

hmmm...tough one...

very intersting im not religous though

FelixFelix writes:

To imply that mankind can never solve his problems without the help of some divine source of help is a cop out on human responsibility.

WTF! Having a personal Devil is not a license.

There is a lot of differentiating facts on satin (Lucifer). Every religion has its own belief on what and who Lucifer really was. Here is the most common one:

Who was Lucifer?

Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God.


If God is so good, then why did he create Satan?

Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
( this is found in Ezekiel 28:15 )

Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.

Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness (This is in Ezekiel 28:17)

imagesinwords very true and well put. Every culture has there own beliefs and I guess the only way we are going to find out what is true and what is not is to wait till we die and see what happens. almost like the lottery.

Yes following the 10 commandments is good and all but the thing that gets me that they say no matter what you do ask God for forgiveness and he will take your sins. So what your telling me is go kill a bunch of ppl and ask for forgiveness and you will get into heaven.

Another favorite is that in the bible it states that witch craft is sin. OK I got that BUT, you are telling me that a man lives in the heaven or hell and can do (MAGICAL) things. OK Gotcha but we cant do magic. Y cuz we may do it better.

Think about that one.

Magic is cool with me :) It's all the power of the mind, focal techniques and faith... anyone can do anything if they want it bad enough.

images:
When i saw the topic i had to come in and see. But woman you said it all, you took the words out of my mouth. The Watchtower was originally done my Jehoviah Witness's. But when it comes to religion everyone has there own beliefs. I say bah! Religion here is to broad of a discussion. To each there own. People can believe in any higher power, thus it be anything you trully put your heart and soul into it.
~SwT~

And i re-read your statement images, for thy am Pagan beliefs and maybe this is why i feel this way but this thread could go on forever. Religion is contraversy.

Satan is a childs story made up to scare people to believe in a god that would cause people to do evil things. Evil comes from within us not from a creature sent down to earth to burn for eternity. It is said in the old testament that God is a jealous god and shall not create any other gods. Even after Jesus apears in the bible it speaks of free will and the fact that whatever man wants if they truely believes in their heart in it that they shall have it. The Watchtower is a magazine for Jahova Witnesses and has nothing to do with christians or catholic or babtists or agnostics. Im not knocking any religions as they can follow whatever crackpot they want and listen to the ideas of one man and not make their own choices on who they want to be, but I will follow my own beliefs and let the people who read the bible as it is a text book and and take in the words and not the meaning fall into a pit of worries about where they will be in the end of time.

Images-
I can see you RIA'ing this its going to get mighty hot i forsee that now. Blessest be to all. Im out :)
And not all Pagan's are Chrisitians ty :)

"No! An angel had an improper thought."
God called them all perfect, his word made them all perfect. Later an angel had an improper thought and made himself imperfect.
So what you are saying(rather obvious to anyone with common sense)is that this PERFECT being....had an imperfect thought...
see here is my issue in a nutshell...
how does a PERFECT creation do ANYTHING imperfect....only an intrinsically flawed thing would be capable of such.

"Right through theology is the knowledge that thoughts and words are powerful. (You as a witch exploit that knowledge to make your spells.)"
Actually some would say that...I personally believe that magic has far more to do with intent and applied will than words....words are simply the ritualization most need to focus their thoughts into their will.

"Isn't it funny how Christians do not dismiss witchcraft, because they know the power of thought and word. Power enough to make the perfect, imperfect. "
now this....I can only partially disagree with...
of course they know the power of words....
the term indoctrination says it all about the way they teach each other

indoctrinate
verb [T] DISAPPROVING
to repeat an idea or belief frequently to someone in order to persuade them to accept it:
basically it also works the same with brain washing..the techniques are disturbingly similar....
but as to them not dismissing witchcraft...
of course they dismiss it...that is why they simply say it is all satanism....
which is completely wrong and no more intellectually sound as claiming all women can't drive, all asians are in gangs, all blacks are criminals, and all muslims are fanatics, it is generalization on it's grandest scales.
But honestly...if you consider watchtower as widely read....then I don't know why I am bothering to respond to you...and yes I have read it....so I do have a basis for comparison .

Daermon- you respond because you have something worth saying. If you are making a post, it's one to be read. Keep posting them.

The bible as well as other books takes many ideas and stories from older religions . There is not as much uniqueness as some may think . The modern concept of Satan is a man made idea . Most thoughts of Hell and such aren't in the bible anyhow . They come from Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise lost .

thanks images...I don't feel the need to use large words to try to sound more intelligent than I am....I like being considered somewhat rough around the edges....I have little but disdain for the thesaurus warriors....those who make a point of using big important sounding words in a string of statements in which many of the words are improperly used...but it sounds all important like....
but I won't name names on who does this...at least not outside my journals..lol

wow, ive just been reading all the posts in this thread, i dont know if i even want to inject my input for fear of getting flamed by someone, this is definately a touchy topic....oh well, lol
personally i have never read the bible either, never been to church, dont really have a religion at all...i dont actually have too many opinions on "God" and "Satan" at all... but this thread has been very enlightening and thought provoking, and i shall return to read up some more :)

Yes, I agree with you, Daermon. I was reading through the posts and hoped someone would address the Perfection creating imperfection thing. Well thought out, better than what I would have written.

Daermon writes:

how does a PERFECT creation do ANYTHING imperfect

Sesame Street is brought to you today, by the letter iota.

Iota, the smallest letter in the Greek alphabet was at the center of bloody and fierce religious battles over the nature of God. Most Christians (appologies to JWs) now accept that “Whatever God is, Jesus is that; and whatever humanity is, Jesus is that too, in one whole person.,” but the fight that led to the Nicene Creed, so weakened the early Christian church that:

[...] in the middle of the seventh century there appeared [...] an alternative culture: Islam. The strength of Islam was its simplicity. The early Christian Church had dissipated its strength by theological controversies, carried on for three centuries with incredible violence and ingenuity. But Mahomet, the prophet of Islam, preached the simplest doctrine that has ever gained acceptance
—Civilizations by Kenneth Clark

The controversy was over whether Jesus Christ was God or formed from the substance of God, the difference between them being that one letter iota. The judgment of history or at least the judgment of a historian named Gibbon, is that it didn't make one iota of difference; an expression that remains with us today[1].

So to answer your question: one of the perfect spirit sons of God acted upon an improper desire and made himself Satan the Devil, and in my judgement, the metaphysics makes not one iota of difference.

[1] Plagerized from here

i like to go back as far as i can to understand peoples minds, it would seem to me when cavemen started drawings of men with beasts heads we got the first conseption of man the preditor, from that has stemmed the meanings of good and evil. 'satan' is the mask we wear for the hunter we are

I have to agree, God who is supposed to be 'all knowing' should've known better when he created his creatures what would happen. Otherwise perfection was just what the writers thought God's creatures were.

Awesome write up Miz. The Biblical standpoint on this issue is hypocritical to say the least. I have lived a long life and these sem to be more like guidelines that rules. No disrespect intended. I have been a Christian longer than I care to admit. I still do know jack shit. LOL





"Not a Christian anymore" I'm converting to my own faith. It's called, "Smoke Alot of Weed." :p Peace~ TM

Interesting topic. Although I'm not too sure whether the "Watchtower" can be considered reliable, honest and unbiased theological reading. That's like saying I read highlight's and now I'm a college scholar. The fact is...christianity is derived from paganism. In the vatican today there stands 13 obelisks(sp) all of which represent egyptian and pagan symbols. The bible is now flawed and meaningless due the Gospels of Judas which are being noted as one of theology's greatest finds.The Vatican refuses to acknowledge their validity, but then again, let's not forget the Inquistions. It speaks of the relationship between Judas and Christ and how Christ asked of Judas to betray him.The Catholic church does not want you to know this, and has tried to bury these facts over 1800 years ago. And as far as Satan goes....the meaning that is universal is he is the fallen right hand of God himself, Lucifer, the angel of light, the most revered and most loved of all God's angels. The horned one that is depicted and said to be "Satan" is the horned God of the Hunt...a Pagan God. Who after the autumnal soltice arises and provides for the Goddess in the winter months. The Bible is flawed in so many ways it's a miracle Christianity is still around. Luckily for the Vatican who promotes their propaganda that 90% of the human race is ignorant. Do you realize that the bible gives 2 different accounts of Christ's birth. Both of which are several years apart. So, if you happen to be one who thinks that the Watchtower is even WORTH a gander. My sympathies go out to you. For you are fooling yourself. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

Daermon writes:

I simply postulate [...] because A perfect son simply does not have imperfect desires....otherwise he IS NOT PERFECT....

Fuck logic! Logic falls down quicker than knickers off a whore.

interesting topic u have here!!

Oh miz
"Fuck logic! Logic falls down quicker than knickers off a whore."

and this is why I have always held you in such low regard....when your intellect can no longer come up with a viable argument you resort to rudeness....and then you begin to insult and try to berate...instead of just accepting that you either might be wrong...or haven't done enough research to accurately argue your point further....

Felixfelix: damn...I love a guy who has a clue what he is talking about...hehe

You know Miz, Daermon and I don't get along but I'd have to agree with him on this one.

i believe that god and satan are at war and that satan does come n all shapes i think he can rebll himself but from humans... i dont think ive heard that one before but why would anyone think satan was human or am i miss reading something?

[Sigh, tries again]

Daermon writes:

I simply postulate [...] A perfect son simply does not have imperfect desires....otherwise he IS NOT PERFECT....

Oh, no, no, you are not seeing it. Your kind of visualizing mind is not right for seeing this. You are looking for truth, and logic is an iron door closed against truth. I left you a link, you know, that shows even in something as ordered as math, you cannot find any truth with logic.

That seems a hard lesson, but religion is not a pompous activitiy for logic; it is more like music. Use your penetrating mind - you will see running through religion a clear intellectual line like a tune.

I came very close to closing this not long after it's conception, from miz's typical roundabout and subtle insults.

But, as a result of some of the conversation arising from others, I decided to let it go for awhile.

But when the one bringing forth the topic of discussion, in the face of being able to even appear to maintain the upper hand of the conversation, turns to crude vulgarity without any intellectual value, it's pointless to let it continue.