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IT SEEMS I WAS IN THE WRONG SECTION,AS TONY SOPRANO WOULD SAY 'OH POOR ME' LOL.any way,with all these strange,things around us,creatures of the night,black eyed children,shadow people,hell hounds,you catch my drift?,do you think the devil is here,maybe these things are spawned from him,of course not all are evil,your opinion?

There is nothing substantial to any of the claimed experiences, I mean in this day and age everyone has a camera phone so where's the pictures. People can't grasp the concept of abstract perception. BTW what is this continued off?

Spawn Off SATAN!..? As far as the general public cares there is no god, or devil, believers are in the minority. You can throw a penny and hit a person that claims to have known someone who..."......." Or claims to have experienced X yet bulk at every hint of inquiry made toward them, either critical air sympathetic. I think people need to exercise the superstitious mind in order to free themselves from becoming enchanted by their own delusions.

The Idea of the Devil has been around since the beginning of knowledge of our consciousness. If there is a Dark, there is a Light. If there are "creatures of the night", then there could be beings that walk the day. Just because one can prove the existence of one doesn't exclude the possibility of the existence of the other. I would believe if someone were to prove that it doesn't exist. Anyway, do I think these things are spawns of the Devil? No, I don't. I firmly believe in the Devil. And Evil is something that happens when something goes terribly wrong in a person. Falling into one of the Sins does not mean that someone is Evil. They have merely... wronged. It's a mistake that ought to be corrected. Blame it on stupidity, even. Beings of Evil are not created, they are made. By what or who, I do not know. They coukd be beings of Light or Dark who fell wayward, with absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose. Just because something causes death and destruction does not mean it's Evil. It is...like that. It's only Evil if it's repeated, unforgiving, and relentless, feeding off the negativity from something. Then, yes, that calls for damage control.

What I am saying is that based on the data (or lack of) brought forward by those who claim to have experiences
or sightings.

Yes, in this age and time, having no recorded proof is quite unbelievable. Maybe these things have an aversion to technology? :) Some perks of the modern world.

I'm not one to blame other beings on wrong doings unless it's a human who clearly did something wrong

I think computers, video games, and mobile devices have been abused and are decreasing social interaction and communication skills, making life easier also allows us to use our brains less which means people with less social skills and intelligence have a lot easier time surviving and reproducing

As for repeat offenders and "evil" people I'd have to blame the justice system, a homeless prostitute gets caught in a sting operation and she gets clean clothes, a shower, a warm place to sleep, and 3 meals a day, prisons should be worse than street life and they should educate prisoners on how to be productive members of society after they leave so they don't break the law again

Then there is the government and shitty economy to blame for a widespread decrease in general happiness, comfort, and security which are all things that help people do better in life and stay relatively sane

I HAVE SEEN GHOSTS,I KNOW THERE REAL,I HAVE SEEN PICS OF THE YETI IN TIBET AND PROOF OF THERE EXSISTENCE,THE TIBETIN MONKS DONT LIE.I HAVE SEEN SHOWS WHER THEY GOT PHOTO AND VIDEO PROOF.SO SOME HAVE BEEN REPORTED,THE TRUTH.ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE AND I ALWAYS KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

Yea an open mind, just like all CAPS I get it, so please link the sources for this compelling evidence.

ok dabbler,i know your a non beliver,but you have the internet,with tons of info,do some research.Peace Brother

Well why would you cringe at me asking for you to stee.r me in the right direction.

I also believe in ghosts and other various astral beings but they aren't behind everything good or bad that happens

dabbler, we take in so much stuff with our eyes every day that it's impossible for our brain to process all of it, some scientists think that if you don't believe in something and don't expect it to be there that your brain won't bother processing the image of it being there, kind of how you can type things like "a" or "the" twice in a row in a sentence and a lot of people will miss it because they don't expect it to be there and don't pick up on changes in something they see so much

that's also why scientists think small children report seeing things much more than adults, it hasn't been engraved in their brains that ghosts aren't real and they are still familiarizing themselves with their environment

Then please enlighten me to this source that documents the findings, and opinions odf scientist.

If such encounters occurred then the interpretation of the individual is predisposed to their (no THERE) indoctrination, and religious bias.

I learned it from the deception episode of Your Bleeped Up Brain on H2, I would post a link but my phone won't let me

Here's a question as I am an investigator as a hobby and I quite enjoy it and don't charge people but I came across something on another site that has me perplexed.

A well known couple who work in the paranormal field are auctioning off a one hour SKYPE session with them, what are your thoughts on this?

For me, it angers me because the paranormal community wants so much to be taken seriously and then there are things like this that make me cringe.

I know there will always be skeptics and non-believers but this will make a stronger argument for these people.

Right now, I'm just miffed because someone is getting scammed big time with this one!!!

Thus is the nature of their beast, riding in on the tail coats of an already ambiguous study.

That post might get a better response in the professionals thread because that's kind of what it is, people who believe their information is true are willing to pay for it and that's about it

but I don't think it'll do anything for the community, advice and help should be free until there is enough concrete evidence to prove to the general public that there is some truth in what they believe in

I believe.. but I also believe that I don't have to prove anything Ive seen to anyone.. Some things can't be explained.. and to the non believers.. its a waste to try.. Not knocking them at all.. but its like trying to get a vegan to eat beef.. not gonna happen..

It's all in what we experience that makes us the way we are and people experience a variety of different things, if their experiences haven't made it so they harm themselves or others and they hold no influence over you or your life then let them be

as far as vampires and creatures of the night and so on

i believe they could exist after all the world is so big
and we know pretty much jack all of it history and what has happened before us so yes i do believe that they could exist but at the same time they could not its one thing we will probably never find out lol

and to dabbler
you crack me up every time u go on you
give me proof add a article... state this scientists name blah blah blah lol if u are as smart as u claim to be then
you know full well as much as any of these people who claim to have seen ghosts or believe in god or vampires
cant put forward evidence that they do exist when you ask them for "evidence" you also cant prove 100% without a shadow of a doubt that they don't exist lol

if u can give any of us some "evidence" or "proof' that you will be able to show anyone on this planet and they will look at it and go....well yep thats 100% irrefutable your 100% right god
vampires and ghost do not exist then please by all means do and prove us and the Majority or us the world wrong....cause yes you go on bout how religion is the minority my god you are so off with that statement lol and don't mind the pun

but anyway its a great topic :) and i also think that they all cant be evil but until we get to meet some we will never know the truth

In the past and some now, people used the idea of a devil to try and excuse their misdeeds...the "devil made me do it."

This always comes down to belief. I believe there is some sort of higher power but I wouldn't necessarily use the term god as I don't believe in demons or devils. If Satan exists he is an angel. He never fell from grace as they call it according to those who actually wrote about all of this originally and there is no Lucifer. Its a misunderstanding of a passage in Isaiah. So therefore, for me I see no evidence that it is anything more than superstition and misinterpretation of events and very old writings. As for ghosts and hauntings, I reserve judgement on that but I do know often it is an environmental condition causing hallucinations.

Correct, he was given Licence by the Creator to Test mankind.

Many of us have expereienced these Tests, the desire to kill, maim, or screw those who often really deserve it.

The question is this, when you are down trodden, treated unfairly and breached on all sides do you attack with Mustard Gas And Anthrax or Ponder?

The Greater being retracts.

Pours forth its Soul.

No, we are better than that.

And Satan smiles "I Was wrong Lord" for you gave me licence to torture these unworthy Souls wrought of clay...

But in Truth, the were forged of sterner stuff.

You see Satan is Gods right hand man, the best of the best and here to Test.... Ahem...and many of you failed. Hence Ebola.

In my belief system there are things that are 'good' and 'evil'. To see something as one perspective is well in the nicest way I could place it is nieve. We all see things in color, yet if we look deeper. The color fades. There is light during the day, and darkness during the night. Yet both reside during the evening hours.

There is proof for all to see that things exist, though as we all know we have the blind, and those who refuse to accept them. Thus it brings me to this ordeal. Dabbler, I respect you as a debative commentator. Much is in fact needed in such a line of talk. There are in fact fakes, and real deals. Thus the fakes do need to be expelled.

When I was taught science, I remember one rule. A theory is not right nor wrong till proven henceforth. That in which has yet to been found true or false falls under the category of a hypothetical theory. As in this is what the outcome should be, yet it proves to be unsolved. Till it is proven solved it remains there.

A scientist cannot be closed minded in pretaining to things such as quantam physics, string theory, or even the supernatural. Thus brings me to my next subject to this thread.

As we know there are two forms of 'athiests'. The ones that are open minded, yet still hold their beliefs and do enjoy a good debate. Then there are those that are close minded and attack all things spiritual for the sake to 'prove' that nothing exists except what they firmly believe.

Before we bash Dabbler, lets look at previous and present posts from him. He does not deny that some things cannot be explained, yet he does not believe that it is supernatural. All in all he is a very finite middle of both of them. Open to some things, closed to others.

Yes he could research certain things, such as people waking with wounds unbeknownst to them. No possible way of them happening, ghost sightings, the lot. The problem is. Like us, he see's the discredited objectors as well. If he looks further into the 'credited' ordeals or not further. I would not know.

With that said, before you bash him, understand he is acting as he was taught. Either by his own doing, or another. Though in such subjects as this thread, it could in fact prove useful to weed the fakes from the real ones.

Granted in a personal note it would be nice to see him a bit more... cogent, I guess you could say. Though we all have our flaws, and I am not one to judge. For to judge another, is to ask to be judged. Only one person in my eyes can do that, and frankly that person isn't even part of the human race. Whether it be a hoax, or he be real. In the end, we all will find out.

I agree, Dabbler should not be bashed.

However, people in this forum need to remember one thing...

Your personal experiences are YOURS, own them. Don't let anyone (high level education or not) tell you that you didn't experience what you know you did.

It is true, science/scientists can prove many things true and false. Yet, science is flawed. Why? Because human beings are flawed.

To believe that supernatural things don't exist or happen just because some Phd told you they don't, is foolish. Try asking that Phd how gravity works.

Thank you DE, and ZOmbie. I can only add that there are believers, and True Believers, only true believers except every claim related to their belief. Moderate believers don't concern me. It is the ones that claim their reason for believing should be right on the tip of every time you look around it should hit you in the face.. they claim that what they believe stands up to "scientific scrutiny ". Believe what you want, but accept that not all who dont believe have always not believed, or researched as a believer. Something DE and Z have made indirect note of. I am wrong for coming on strong though it takes a little something to get a reply.

I agree, not all claims should be readily accepted as gospel. Those who are "true believers" should have learned this early on in their study. Even teachers such as Jesus the Christ made this point.

You are welcome, and it is true Dabbler. Sometimes you have to be a bit strong coming off. Especially when you write walls of text. Today's society isn't the same as what many of us grew up to be ready for. To point though...

He is right in one systematic expression. There are believers then there are 'True Believers'. Also known as Bible thumpers, and the like. My faith is my own, the reason why I don't state what faith I am is because I don't wish to force it down someones throat.

Though I also look at things and look deep into them, for instance. What got me into the supernatural is the very thing I spoke of. Cuts, lacerations, bite marks, and other ordeals that could not be explained. That and I have been known to 'see' and 'hear' things. Even things seen and heard that perhaps are real, can and will eventually make you insane. Am I insane? To the eye of the beholder I guess.

Though one thing I have found for certain is this, we all see unexplained happenings at one point or another in our life. I look into it, both scientifically and spiritually. I look to see what it truly is. Is it real? Or is it some scientifically explained thing. Better yet, could it be explained by both or neither? If it is the latter, well it's time to go find me a shrink. That or I found something that needs to be investigated.

Lol dabbs.. You shouldn't care about any ones opinion. You know what you saw. Own that shit.. Just like she said above me. Just like I know that I am capable of doing things with peoples energies and emotions so I could not care less what other people think. Love ya buddy. Keep on keepin on! ;)

^always calls me a she for some reason... then again I do come out feminine sometimes. Comes with being raised around women. Among other things. But yes, dabbler has a place here. In truth I don't think he is here for no reason. There is something about him, like he is searching for something in perticular... an answer of some sorts.

He is into the occult, he finds it interesting. But he never explains why. I think his status here is a good debunker, he's found a few things that has been debunked. For instance the shadow people. The Fox Sisters, and a few other 'occult' falsehoods. Someone like that is vital for spiritual progression even if they sit on the opposite side of the fence. It helps those that do stray and listen and believe everything to see what is 'possibly out there' What 'isn't out there' and what 'could be true'.

It is easy to stray in spiritual contexts, and after a while after seeing enough, able to do so easily. Hence why where many are aggravated, and others are annoyed at his posts. I find an enlightenment to them, though sometimes he does have to be guided the right way himself, and has admitted to his faults. Which brings more respect for him from me. That is a rare trait these days. To admit when you are wrong.

When he asks for proof, I believe there's more then one reason for it. Not just to discredit it, but he too is searching for something, a truth to be found so to say. Then again that's just me rambling. I could be wrong.

I think it's all crap. I don't believe in the supernatural, the occult or the religious.
There's no scientifically proven proof, no real photos, no real evidence. It's wishful thinking and in some cases, quite delirious.

Peapod actually there are scientific studies that are credited. And they have brought up some interesting facts. The thing is shifting through the falsehoods to find them.

Granted many are still unexplained. There are some things I have seen that are not on the internet, and was done merely for 'flash photography' that brought some debatable pictures. Getting a hold of them would be near improbable right now due to loss of contact with said people. Though understand, a closed mind draws a blind sight.

If I do get to commandeer the(or similar) pictures again I will be going to a scientific institute with them and seeing if they can make sense or debunk them.

You don't know where the actual 'proof' is, therefore it doesn't exist in the eyes of science.

True without the proof of cold hard facts based on scientific discovery you really only have the testimonies of people saying that these creatures of the night exist. Based on the stories they tell and folklore from past present and future that surrounds the myth that makes up there very existence. So if you tell a few stories or here some doesn't make it real without documented evidence to back it up.

i do agree that asking questions and asking for proof is needed to weed out all the bullshit claims and false sightings and so on. there is nothing wrong with that but you have to take every single case and look at it separately not just plaster a its all fake and bullshit and dosnt exist ...and weather in be ghosts demons or religion science does its best to make sense of the world we live in...but when science fails...and it does alot of the time thats were the rest come in and everyone will have to except that fact.... they both have merit in this world and they both have there place and they are both going to be here for the rest of humanity's existence and is a really boring mood point to argue all the time lol let ppl believe what they want and just accept it

and to mr peapod
i go back to my original comment you say its all fake bs and dosnt exist.....give us all 100% irrefutable proof that u can show to anyone in this world and they will have no choice but to agree with u that religion/ghosts/demons/angels do not exist until then its just merely your opinion which is fine but inst really cool blatantly ragging on others beliefs

I would settle for a relable source these days. Bring something to the table already. BTW I am not a seeker. I am simply maintaing that it would serve believers well to have something new to promote themselves with by now. The whole "field of studies" is rife with for profit writers that are ambiguous as to just what their credentials are. By faith you can have your beliefs. Yet when you badger non believers that you are above simple belief, and have found something to convince you, then prepare to be scrutinized with inquiry.

DE you state I must be here on an occult site seeking, yet you demonstrate the bias of believers. You looked narrowly at the presented big picture. The site is also appealing to Goth enteisist, and Horror fans, it is also now a sci field site, and power punk site.

Along with those claiming experiences, especially reoccuring experiences could ( and one needs to accept this even as a believer) are those with Schizo disorders, and those suffering from temp sleep deprevation.

maybe those you shrug off as debunkers. Are in actuality out to thin the artificial darkness that has been spread. So that they can see what actually is and be fascinated by the nifty mundane once again.

http://www.skepdic.com/ghosts.html

Ghost stories, on the other hand, are lots of fun, as long as you don't take them too seriously, which seems to be what the ghost hunters are doing. Amy Bruni, one of the St. George hotel ghost hunters, produces "Beyond Reality Radio," a program popular with those who play at being paranormal investigators. "Ghost hunting is almost a belief system," she says. "It's about trying to figure out what happens when we die. People want to know what happens when we die, and ghosts are a lot more tangible for a lot of people. In the paranormal, there are a lot of people who aren't naturally religious, but they believe in ghosts." If Ms. Bruni really thinks that ghost hunting will reveal anything about what happens to us when we die, then she is definitely taking this stuff too seriously. You'll be a long time dead, Ms. Bruni, and there will be plenty of time then to figure it all out. Of course, then it won't matter, but I'll wager you'll be just as successful then as you are now in your investigations.

In the meantime, children, can we think of any other explanations for what's going on in the St. George hotel?

http://www.skepdic.com/skeptimedia/skeptimedia6.html

so once again dabbler alot of empty words and links
and your opinions that its all bullshit without any conclusive 100% proof evidence that ghosts do not exist....instead just a whole bunch of picking on other ppls beliefs and calling them dumb or stupid for believing in ghosts

im seeing a pattern here lol

What believers lack is a field of study fr their scattered claims. Too may in the business are out for self promotion, and gain. Let's say that despite the credible evidence that demonstrates that at death a body simple stops functioning and the biochemical reaction we are becomes memories for or survivors. So despite that and the lack of verifiable evidence of any sighting. See what it takes to maintain belief in the paranormal? Calling people stupid for believing? Where? Bring it down a notch Logan we can avoid the activism.

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being." -A.E.

"The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion.

Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning." -A.E.

another wall of txt saying alot but meaning nothing all to dodge the fact there is no hard evidence either way...
got ya

Logan, stop flaming dabbler. In truth those posts he did post up, if you would read them do not deny or even criticize the belief system. In fact if you read it, in which I know you didn't. You would realize that his point is the lack of proof on either side cannot cogently admit either are wrong in the end.

You can't cogently say this happened, and he cannot cogently say this did not. The point with the paranormal investigators is most of them are frauds, and more so the few real ones doing it to actually find the truth get blasphemed for what the profit dwellers do to get their money. It works the same with any situation.

Credibility is shot when even one person claims one thing, and another claims the same and is proven fake. People as a whole have become too close minded, too judgmental, or too nieve to realize what is real, what isn't, and lets not forget what might be real. Both sides of this discussion has that. Logan you being too closed minded on one end, and peapod being too closed minded on the other.

Take my words as what you wish Logan, but there is a reason why the truth holds a bitter sting before it heals.

lol im flaming no one im just poking much needed wholes in peoples statements and adding a element of thought to those who are set in there bias :)

and you said hes trying to say there no evidence either way to prove either theory that's what ive been saying this whole time so please read before making my point from the start XD

and im not close minded at all im up for any theory or story and i will judge it accordingly to the story or theory given
you say u can teleport well then cool! im down with that theory until either u teleport or you don't thus bringing out the real truth u say your jesus cool im once again down turn some water to wine or something ...my point is im 100% open minded to everything but if the proof doesn't back it up in the end then then fair enough thus the truth

but thank you for being the white knight evolve i respect that :)

Ok Logan I shall give you that, though come on man, keep it clean. I will admit I have realized I missed a few posts. It happens from time to time.

Also Dabbler, there are many things I do believe. I do not wish to sound as though I am biased. This is a forum post originally meant for debating such and what not. One thing I will admit, today's 'christian' faith is flawed without a doubt. I have talked to many whom are 'Christians' who agree that to be true. I myself, well in truth I do believe in a higher power. Though I walk a path of truth and not sheer blind faith.

We all see things differently, even those of the same faith these days. Even some atheists and antagonists, and the omnitheists. However you spell that damned word... anyways. The belief system in all aspects is tearing itself apart. Yet drawing a new era of each.

Dabbler you are right, this site hosts a wide verity of people, from various backgrounds. It isn't just skitzo disorders though I fear, I have seen some very ...pardon my lack of better and more intelligent words. Fucked up people while on this site. One thing I must agree with on many people is the 'retro' vampire. "I have lived for thousands of years." Mmmhmm, right... Do you know the full meaning of immortality? Or the difference between it and longevity?

One thing I have learned is regardless of immortality, the only way the body would preserve itself is longevity. In every lore, teaching, and understanding I have come across. Also Longevity, is not immortality. Far from it.

Anyways back on subject.... well more directly of course. Even an atheist can agree there are dark and light 'beings' now if they are inhuman, probably not to the atheistic mindset. But humanity in itself can hold people with a dark psyche, for a lack of words there. Or even a light one. Some of us have adapted more tot he night, and being nocturnal can happen in the human race.

Also Logan, even in the object of faith, there are limitations that one man or being can do. Walking on water, probable, yet not per say possible. Water into wine... very iffy. Teleportation... in terms of vector physics it is merely improbable, not impossible. To particle physics, a little more improbable. Then again not one of us understands what that 10% of the brain is actually used for. Why it has a hole in it, and why it don't work.

hole logan, there/their/they're are all respective differences. Is English your second language? Skeptics seem to draw fire from most believers in such things, and atheist draw fire from theist, yet once they leave the room the in fighting starts, at least logan you can acknowledge that.

nonsense and irrelevant Exe' man you couldn't make sense with a step by step diagram. Such nonsense..

to evolve all good i miss posts sometimes to XD no problem there and yea i have a open mind to anything such as what was stated but like u made some good points to wards them....the fact of them being real is the iffy part which is when the truth of those matter need to be sought after in order to clear the bullshit from the truth but as long as every case is taken differently and look at as a whole i firmly believe the truth will come to light on all of these subjects in due time :)


and to dabbler
English in my first and yea my grammar is shit as XD that's a combo one 1 not paying attention in school wasn't my thing
2 playing lots of computer games and 3 its the internet i cbf trying to go grammar pro lol

but yes at-least we agree on something :) good to see


and dabbler i agree with u on exe he doesn't like to make sense but his posts are good for a laugh XD at-least i enjoy the ramblings lol

but yes all is becoming rather constructive i like

The only thing here I don't understand, is why does anyone care whether someone or no one else believes what they believe.

I believe what I believe. Why? Because I believe it. The proof that convinced me may not convince you, so what. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about what I believe. Yes, you can give your opinion, but at the end of the day, does that change anything for me? No.

"The burden of proof is on the believer."

No it isn't. What I believe, does not require me to prove anything. If I tell you something and you don't believe me, what do I care? If I am required to tell you and you don't believe, that is not my issue. I am required to prove nothing.

Why do you want proof handed to you? Stop being lazy. Find the proof you seek (one way or the other) yourself.

Also, let's not bash moneymakers too much either. Scientists are constantly begging for grants to research stuff that may not exist at all. Not to mention, it takes money to do just about anything these days.

When a person reverts to "Well you can't prove what I can't prove exist doesn't exist." They fancy themselves as taking the hand in the exchange. This is not the case. All it does is demonstrate Confirmation Bias, especially after I clearly presented a list of sufficient evidence found through research that was at the time responding to experiences that people had, that included compelling elements to warrant genuine science to investigate. Note that nothing has come from the paranormal believers in a century worth of "investigation." No new methods, no new field study technical manuals.. nothing accounting for anything they believe. So with that said you can get over your mantra, it does nothing to make your case more probable, or real. As for me being on the fence.. no I am not.. I am one who has already "Pulled the wool over my own eyes." I have been a believer after having my own experience, however as I researched and learned from data, and info about such subjects i found the answer that accounted for my experience, along with very compelling evidence against the conclusion that disembodied spirits exist after death. So what I am willing to concede is that yea I can't prove that ghost don't exist to you, but I am content with the evidence, and case presented against such a belief. The same material that you scoffed at Logan.. though at least DarknessEvolved acknowledged, which shows the degree of rational belief, and totally irrational belief. Here is a source that will demonstrate that all the high profile cases have been met with years of debunking, and this is a site that that caters to the concept of paranormal matters.http://www.prairieghosts.com/museum.html

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens


so if it is by personal experience you claim to hold your belief, that is all you. But when you start implying that for others who have not had that experience are so unreasonable to not accept your experience as credible, or as evidence of what you conclude it to be evidence of, you are out of line. Also if a person is compelled to speak of, and relate accounts of their experience to those who are not predisposed to such beliefs, and maybe share those experiences then expect inquiry, and scrutiny.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens


Oh, how I love this quote and it's so very true. How do I know it's true? Let me explain...

My dad recently died. My dad also loved me. I can give proof after proof that supports my claim. Such as, he worked and provided for me. He took me fishing. We had long wonderful conversations about the faith we shared. He supported my dreams, without belittling them.

However, at the end of the day, whatever evidence I provide, will not prove his love for me.

I can also give evidence that he didn't love me. The last 10 or so years of his life, we had not spoken a single word to each other. He only ever told me he loved me once and only ever hugged me once. He could be harsh and cruel at times. I participated in multiple sports in my teen years yet, he only came to one event.

See, I give evidence to support my claim and dismantle my claim with other evidence. How much more could I dismantle this claim, if I had no evidence at all.

You can stand and scream the evidences all day long, either way. But, there are people who believe what they believe for a reason.

Also, about inquiry and scrutiny. Like I said, you may give your opinions or the evidence you have to support what you say. At the end of the day, I have also done my research and I know what I know.

Now, I open myself to being called closed minded. I am ok with this. When I finish reading a book and I close it, does tt make me closed minded to never want to read it again?

Some may argue that it does and some may argue that it doesn't. In the end, I really don't care.

Now here you have a very valid case. However it is universal in nature, and the majority of people routinely share such feelings, and can relate. So while it is a bit relevant to the thread it has far more substance then supernatural phenomena. So yea your fathers love is in a sense tangible, far more credible then the experiences made by believers.. simply because of the findings that account for those experiences.

z you have never implied or stated that anyone that doesn't find your belief to be as compelling as you do is being irrational, or unreasonable. To me that is a mark in your favor. Props. A practical believe I have always found you to be, a set aside from the normal irrational lot.

I however do agree on the point, that one shouldn't believe in something simply because they have a feeling. I believe they should do their research, weigh the evidences and come to a logical conclusion.

There are MANY who "believe" a thing, simply for shock value. Also, there are many con artists.

As with anything pertaining to beliefs or the supernatural, you have to wade through the crap to find the truth.

Although our findings may be different, I think both Dabbler and I agree on this point.

Oh no, I would never consider someone irrational, on the basis of coming to an opposing view. People are going to have an opposing view.

I cannot expect someone to respect my point of view, if I don't respect theirs.

Respect doesn't imply agreement. Even enemies can show respect.

Right said. As I mentioned to you in message, it is more what believers don't say then what they do say that lend credibility to their stance on the belief. Sensible believers, verses erratic believers.

Just to get back on the topic directly...

"with all these strange,things around us,creatures of the night,black eyed children,shadow people,hell hounds,you catch my drift?,do you think the devil is here,maybe these things are spawned from him,of course not all are evil,your opinion?"


I do believe Satan (if that is who you're speaking of when you say "devil") is a real being. If these beings do exist (which I have no evidence of) and they are spawned of Satan, I do believe they are completely evil. Man is easily deceived.

As far as the devil being here, I believe he has always been here. "Always" meaning, since before the creation of man.

*Of course, this is all my opinion.

well everyone doesnt have evil in them but at yet some people have attitudes that makes them seem evil.

Here's a question (speaking of "evil")...

If a man has nothing but evil thoughts his entire life yet, never does anything that society as a whole considers to be evil, does that make him good?

Isiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

All "The Devil" did was challenge God about having his creation worship him mindlessly. Were does it say anywhere in the bible that "The devil" is in charge of evil?

Also Gawds track record in the old testament includes inciting his followers to genocide,m and condoning rape to name a few. In the New Testament he concocts a plan to send his Son (himself) to earth to be executed, sent to hell, and taken home.. Gawd, not "the devil" hatched that plot. All "the devil" was alleged to have done was appear to the son and say, "Hey make it not so." What's the us of you doing this, aren't you all powerful?"

Earth was put in the control of Man. When Adam and Eve sinned, they voluntarily handed control of the Earth to Satan. Hence, he is the prince of the "air." God could have prevented Satan from taking charge, but He voluntarily let Satan take over so He could show men how merciful He is by offering salvation to each man.

If this doesn't confuse people then I am baffled as to what would.

Epicurus said it well:“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

lol dude hes god pretty sure he can do watever the fuk he wants XD.....and if he sat there and spoon feed every person with there problems then the world would stop moving forward its like giving a child everything he wants down to a tea hes whole life then dropping him in the middle of the desert he would be dead in a week

the more god stays out of it the better he built us gave us a code to live by and left us to do our thing...and people say ohhh but if god is so powerful and loving why does he let ppl murder each other and why dosnt he stop all the wars.....becouse hes greatest gift to mankind was free will....and that means he cant stop a murder becouse he has no right and he knows it.....if one person kills another there its that person exercising there free will and yes the person dying diddnt want to die but ohhh well if u lived a good life not being a dick to anyone and trying to do the right thing then you get to spend the rest of eternity with the ppl you love and care about.....pretty solid theory and not to out there compered to time travel and string theory with the millions of different universes all happening at the same time

all of a sudden to think that there are ghosts of ppl who were brutally murdered in a very horrible way sticking around on earth or sticking to a certain spot were they..got murdered dosnt sound to far fetched ....but of course if u have a closed mind and are stuck in your bias of ghosts dont exist well then that whole theory would sound like the biggest load of shit you have ever heard ;)

but with that beautiful thing called free will you can believe in watever the fuk you want to!!! regardless of what other say or evidence provided...pretty nifty thing god gave us...or flip the coin...that we just developed by ourselfs :)

Sticking around? Just what sticks around? How many years has the idea been floating around (NPI)? The only thing I know that lingers is the idea of ghost, and people that have not made any head way in the "field" of paranormal research. As I said already it is stagnant, and antiquated. If there was ever anything to it either then Paranormal researchers must be seriously incompetent, because by reasoning there would have to be such a large percentage of disembodied spirits around.. yet as it is believers have no manifest of the departing, or hold over rate. They have nothing substantial to present.. no findings, no break through. Logan if we are to continue exchanging may i request you tidy up your text. I swear you make my eye flutter with your abuse of elementary grammar. Let me make it easy for you. There- A place, Their-Possessive, They're-They are. Pause a bit, you may be to anxious to post your comments, it screams of desperation.

If god is omnipotent, why does the devil have any power at all? I hear theists say all this crap the devil does to get your soul, but then they say something like "god never gives you more than you can handle". So if that's true, and I have the ability to overcome the power of satan, why does god need to test me with his temptations anyway? And if god is omniscient, he already knows what's in every ones heart to begin with, so again, why tempt believers?

Seriously folks, the mental hula hoops you have to do to believe in god, makes me tired.

Ok, where should I start on catching up with the recent posts. I guess I should start with the whole "God" ordeal. Logan, dabbler, you both have one point that is quite relevent to both your cases. Though Logan how you write is getting to show you tend to write in the sake of the argument rather then seeking the enlightenment of it. No offence, it's what I read out of it. You speak of how god has no right to prevent, yet if you have read the Torra, or the Bible, or anything "God" is represented in. He has several times.

The whole thing with Satan, Dabbler you do have a point there. If God was omnipotent. Why give another power? Wouldn't that in fact provide opposition? When it comes to the faith of many. Those whom dabble in reading the faiths of many tend to find a very fine line. THere are parts that are... speculative, parts that are broken in some way or form, and a few parts to be truth. It's all about cogently breaking down the system and understanding the faith itself that you find the truth within the faith. We can say that this this and this was written by some "God", yet the thing is, it was written through the fingertips of man. No matter how we look at it, it was mortal ink, mortal blood, mortal sweat and tears. In the end the quill touched a physical parchment, and that quill was attached to a mans fingertips.

"..pretty solid theory and not to out there compered to time travel and string theory with the millions of different universes all happening at the same time "

Allow me to stop you there Logan, for one simple reason. String Theory, it has come a long way since it was thought of. Granted it's original aspect was not completely true. Through scientific advancements we are finding it to be more and more pheasable.

Time travel, has always been a myth, but the reason it is still being researched to this day. Is because it holds a cogent ideal. It hit a brick wall, as do all things in science.

Parallel universes, it is one of the more iffy scientific facts. Though due to string theory, there are people in world renowned Universities working on the very first Warp Gate. In theory it works, and construction is in fact in construction. NASA has also talked about possibly tackling the Warp Drive in 2013. Oh, as for time travel. There are recent studies that a Wormhole may in fact be a pheasable way to do so.

My point to this Logan, is this and simply this. Before you denounce a study, or any other form of belief. Scientific or not, do your research first. Also I do have to agree with dabbler, I may not be perfect in my grammar and spelling. Though I do take the initiative to try to make it better. Either through spell-check or relearning what I forgot/never understood.

Now, as for how Zombie demonstrated his faith is quite admirable. Dabbler is correct in saying, it is what is not said that can bring the cogency to your debate. It alone can provide as much proof to a conversation as laying it all down on the table. "Ghosts" Plausible, but as Dabbler said, no true evidence, no recent tangible evidence. As well as several debunks. Does it mean they do or do not exist? That, in itself is a question that can't be truely answered. Though as of late they show they do not.

There is something I find quite interesting about the human psyche. We pride ourselves on how much we understand and know. Yet, we don't know jack shit when it comes down to it. There is so much we are still looking at. "Are there beings other then us out there?" "Is this possible?" "How can we convert particle physics, to vector physics?" "How can both particle physics, and vector physics be so different and yet in some cases possible? Yet in others, only one can be applied?"

We have so many answers out there to still find, one of which is in fact the very question that is being asked in this thread. At the current moment, it is not per-say scientifically possible. Then again twenty years ago, you talk about a lazer, and they would look at you and say it isn't possible. Science is ever evolving, yet the belief system is staying stagnant and unwilling to entrust itself to evolve.

" Science is ever evolving, yet the belief system is staying stagnant and unwilling to entrust itself to evolve." Thank you DE.

For example science, and math came together to reason the existence of life existing in distant systems. Yet to irrational believer that is not enough, they expostulate that there are aliens among us.. yet their contribution to how these alleged visitors got here, and why they are so selective as to who they interact with is completely absent. What believers of fringe ideals do is trash science as insufficient for meeting the expectations of pet beliefs, and then they try to pass themselves off as being as adapt as science.. that simply not being the case.

The very definition of science suggests that it alone cannot explain anything that is not of the physical or material.

This suggests to me, that it is possible that normal research into the paranormal, may not produce any result. It also suggests that, science may never prove or disprove the paranormal because it is not designed to.

Asking of science, to prove or disprove the paranormal, would be like asking your car to cook you an egg.

science
[sahy-uh ns] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:
the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.
any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.
systematized knowledge in general.
5.
knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6.
a particular branch of knowledge.
7.
skill, especially reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

ahhhh fun fun fun i enjoy the flurry of ideas coming forth here its truly a lovely debate and so far as stayed rather clean :)

as for my grammer it comes down to i merely cbf putting the effort into it considering this is my leisure time :) and by the fact that u can reply to what im saying its obvious u can understand it regardless of weather ur brain flutters thus tis a mood point but more of a personal preference on ur behalf that you like everything to be perfect...and i respec the grammar nazi in you u need it like i need to be short and not think alot about minor things when im on the interwebs :)


now as for the devil gaining power and what not the reason god wouldnt give a shit about any amount of power he was able to obtain comes down simple to the fact that....well hes god....if u turn ur science brain off for 1 moment and really think of the scope of power u would need to have to create the world and universe and heaven/hell the angels....having one of your rouge children fukking around with a few human souls wouldnt really concern you would it lol life is a test and its a test for a reason if anyone could get into heaven then what would be the point of it....if all the murderers and rapists and theifs could get in cause no one was tested to keep there faith and live a good life by essentially not being a gigantic dick in life by treating everyone u come across like shit and by killing and raping whoever u wanted to....that's the reason why life is a test and that's the reason why god would be fine with Lucifer doing hes thing cause if u take the demon bait guess what......ding ding ding you don't deserve to be in heaven with those who led good life's.....and even if Lucifer ate every soul on earth god could thump him for a second time with ease




and for the ghosts all the paranormal teams are using scientific equipment to try and find proof of ghosts....lets be real here is i was a spirit that has been dead and hanging around for the last 1000 years....u reckon some dude walking into a room with a shiny gadget and asking a few questions is gonna make me go....HOLY SHIT A DUDE yea yea im here watch imma move a chair for ya and whisper....something into ur device so you have tangible proof to solve the ghost mystery.....

personally i dont think so i think its gonna be like....great another fukking human if said spirit would even acknowledge our presence to begin with....only 2 types of spirits would hang around....those with unfinished business and those who are have ties to a loved one who they cant or dont want to let go of and wont move on....both would no be concerned with thousands of dudes walking around being alive there already dead they cant die again....us on the other hand were alive we can still die thats why humans are obsessed with our mortality and the universe we want to know why we are here and whats on the other side or if there is even another side and whats out there in the universe....

and when u think about it all those questions are trying to be answered by both science and religion but unfortunately we are humans and humans are dicks with
free will and there own personal a-genders and instead of pooling our knowledge and being open minded and trying to work together to find all that shit out.....we tend to just sit here and go.....religions right ur going to hell if u disagree or u don't have evidence of this so your full of shit and belong in a mental asylum and no one gets anywhere and whatever little progress is made to uncover the knowledge of our very existence is drowned in a sea of bickering....

but it is also just so much fun to see how people voice what they believe in and what lengths they are willing to go to....to essential prove them the victory and the opinion the supreme...but still fun fun fun

If I happened to be a believer logan, i would distance myself from anyone like you, and would prefer company with a believer with perspective, and articulation like DarknessEvolved.. I am done being baited by you trollish gabber man, you rank a notch above troll.

That would have been better put "When I was curious and dealing with my experience that made me a skeptical believer, I would have distanced myself from people like you logan. Like I said, and you just continued to make my case, it is more about what believers don't say as opposed to what they do say, that compels non-believers to separate them from the herd of mindless believers.

First off, thank you Dabbler for the comment. When it comes to the belief system I don't walk blindly. Do I believe there is an almighty being, a god, a deity, a creator? Personally yes. Though one thing I do try not to do is shove it down peoples throat. Secondly, I seek knowledge in the belief system I follow. Rather then just reading one thing, I expand my reading to different 'religions'. As all of them hold some truth no matter how small.

I also look at the scientific aspects, given it is evolving. Zombie is right though science may never be able to prove the paranormal. Though it can prove to show the false claims. That alone can be good enough when not wanting to be led astray. We all have our ideals, and in truth they should be respected. Has God or any god been proven to exist? No, though substantial evidence also shows that he is a mystery in itself. Some scientists will say yes, some will say no. Some will even say he did at one point. When it comes to the belief system and what we humans believe. No matter how the facts come, we lean towards those facts.

The ollie for instance. A common trick skate boarders tend to do. The whole maneuver is logically and scientifically impossible. The ability to kick a board up without the use of a ramp, down force, or even inertia. But rather to pick it up through gripping the deck from the top and use sheer upper force to pull it up into the air. This alone proves there are two versions of physics. As stated, there is Particle and Vector. The ollie uses Vector, which is improbable in Earths gravitational workings, and more probable on masses such as our moon. Yet even there it is improbable.

THere is a saying that is in the scientific threshold and used quite common, at least it was at one point in time.

"Nothing is impossible, but simply improbable. The possibility may be there yet it may not be through this method or the technology may yet to be out there." ~Unknown

dabbler my man ty for the complement :D id love to be worse then a troll make meh sah scary and shit


but if your done then all good i wont keep it up u have your views i have mine and the world keeps spinning but it was fun :) have a good one

I don't believe in any of it, therefore to me, none of it exists. I think those things are conjured out of the pure fantasy of the imagination, only some people take it all too far and start assuming it's real.

in my years as a child and an adult i have seen, heard and experienced some pretty strange things . so i have always been interested in the paranormal. do i believe in ghost and things that cant be explained yes. do i believe in heaven and hell not so much . i do believe that some kind of existence does happen after death . only because of the experiences i have had. so i have done a lot of reading on the subject and have found some interesting insights that other people have on it one had stuck in my head cause i found it interesting . they claimed that the reason we have so many ghost sighting and experiences is because heaven is only 4 ft off the ground so at times our paths cross with theres and that is why we are able to interact with them and hear and see them like we do .yes was a interesting concept. now as i stated no i dont believe in heaven or hell so much . do i believe in evil demons or things of that nature well it could be possible i suppose but people can be evil and have evil tendencies so how doyou know its just not ghost of evil people . its a thought .

now on the matter of yetis and thing like big foot and so on well new species are being discovered everyday to the expanding of the populations and what not growing and building and new towns going upall over the world . so anything could be possible .