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Vampirism in the Theories of Evolution and Intelligent Design
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JedixMasterxCheryl
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06:06:51 Aug 21 2006
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How do you think Vampires fit into the theories of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design?

I do not intend this as a debate about which is the "true" view of man's origins - instead this is meant to be a discussion about the place that vampirism would fit into either theory (and they are both only theories as neither one can be factually proven - so don't even go there...).

That being said - I am curious. In the Evolutionary viewpoint human life exists as a sort of "accident." The random formation of amino acids into proteins then into funtional living cells...etc... Does this allow for vampirism? How do you think vampires arose if the theory of Evolution explains their existence?

In the Intelligent Design theory - well it is sort of self-explanantory. All life comes about as the creation of some higher intelligence(s) design. If this theory is closer to your personal viewpoint, how do you explain vampires in this context? Do you consider them some sort of supernatural entity or rather, what do you consider vampirism's purpose in an intelligent design of life?

Since I have been reading a debate on these two theories, I thought this might pose an interesting topic for discussion in our forum. Please keep this discussion from detoriation into a religious debate. I do not want this to head down that path. I am only interested in your ideas about how vampires fit into these theories.

Thanks :D




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sacredDefiance
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07:00:02 Aug 21 2006
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Maybe they would fit into the Intelligent Design theory for the purpose of keeping the population under controll?



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lolitamarie
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07:05:30 Aug 21 2006
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I think it is possible for humans to evolve into vampires. Genes can mutuate and lead to all kinds of things. I would think it would be the result of a genetic mutation or something that would happen due to the need for other means to survive. Survival of the fittest is the first law of nature.

As for intelligent design, an intelligent creator could allow vampires. For what reason, only the creator would know and I doubt if he or she would reveal all right away.



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Kglitterous
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07:25:56 Aug 21 2006
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Oooh, I love this topic...
I would like to say first off that I personally believe in Intelligent Design (creationism) in that I do not believe that any species has ever evolved into another species. That indeed a species may have evolved... just not into another species.

Secondly, it pisses me off when people talk about what came first, the chicken or the egg. It is simple if you believe in Darwin, then whatever laid the egg was not a chicken, so the egg came first. If you do not believe in Darwin (as I do) then the chicken was created first (even if it doesn't look like a modern chicken.)

That said, I would like to suggest an arguement for both sides.

Creation: God created Vampires... they serve a purpose... either as predators, as cursed by God, or some other purpose either malign or benevolent.

Darwin: they are evolved,
from man either being racial or a new species, or (probably) recessive genetics (like Cystic Fibrosis)

or from a predecessor (and have evolved to mimic it's prey)



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DeathKnightShimitar
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07:54:38 Aug 21 2006
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I can see man early in evolution going in two different directions, maybe as a means to survive one have drank the blood of animals for extra food.After awhile there bodies became dependent on this and evolution did the rest.Now being stronger and smarter than most they have becomed almost a different race altogether, so naturally live apart from man. Such as Atlantians.



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inmyshadow
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11:57:44 Aug 21 2006
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I think Vampires have always been here, and we always will... I believe in Intelligent Design myself, and i think vampires are just a variant from humans to regulate the human race. sort of guardspeople to stop humans from destroying the world



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ShroudedSith
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14:18:31 Aug 21 2006
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Agnosticsm for the win! Wait scratch that. There are far too many possibilities to weigh assuming the given information (ironically for any topic that questions any of my beliefs). Alternate reality is an option, creationism, Magic, Alien colonization, etc. While this all points to Intelligent Design, it does not however, rule out evolution which is proven. So my answer is anything imaginable is always a possibility (until proven otherwise). ~.o Nice answer eh? This is often times seen as dodging a question or "hanging out on the fence". Hey, you start proving it and I'll start believing :P



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Jakyna
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16:35:13 Aug 21 2006
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I beleive in a higher Intellegence, a Creator, so therefore we are made and the vampires too, then as for their purpous. I might allow the fact it was at fist maybe creatures meant to feed on energy and nothing more then they tasted blood and it turn out they got hook on it like drug, now they need it and will do most anything to have it (since I saw that god forbids to eat blood, please no offence and no hurt me, I read it in the god book) so just like the first creature he made they disobay and now needs blood, so they became predators on humans.

This is my two cents.



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Kglitterous
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16:59:03 Aug 21 2006
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Maybe in the garden when we did not eat animal flesh we were Vampires? Just a possibility... Elaborate or discard the thought as you choose, you've got free will to do so *chuckles*



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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04:39:52 Aug 22 2006
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For my turn on that one, I don't think there was a "garden" even though I too subscribe more to the theory of intelligent design.

I don't buy into any dogmatic symbology or religious mysticism to explain historical fact.

As for not eating meat being a reason for vampirism, that is an interesting thought and one which has never occurred to me before.

That could explain why humans are not vampires as they get there "blood satiation" from the flesh of animals now - but I personally don't think that is the case.

I am more prone to believe that vampires serve a need of sorts whether that be to drain the weak and thus thin out the population or to serve in a capacity as a conduit for energy is open to debate.



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Strigocia
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04:52:28 Aug 22 2006
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Ready for some psy-fi action?

I came up with this, mostly for fun, over a coffee conversation. We were talking about the human spirt and the oddities of the human ability, and I came up with a possible explaination for vampires, psychics, etc.

Lets say that there is a maxium number of souls that are allowed on this planet. This would explain the death/birth ratio. Now, lets say that the souls on this planet are the only souls ment for this planet. I came up with the posibility that people who can do this mystical things are "rogue souls." (This is what I called them) They were never ment to be here, so they are able to do things that souls bound to this planet can't. To add to this, the souls ment for this planet have a sort of "Lo-jack" to them. There can be seen as a soul that belongs here. The "rogue souls" do not have this, so can not be found, explained, or understood.

FIN

That was my little contribution. Tell me what you think.



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satanicvampyre
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04:57:37 Aug 22 2006
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E vs. ID, ID loses everytime. ID, if it ever existed, in its finite wisdom, let a snake loose in the garden, mistake one, mistake two, created the GRAND CANYON by mistake, altough it's doing rather well, then left embarassed.



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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08:44:51 Aug 22 2006
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What a great topic, intelligent design, and who isn't interested in that? Hurrah for intergalactic sex and all those star vaginas just waiting for me to mix with them. And I know what I would love about alien chicks too—their eyeballs. Big tits, huge bums, and the eyeballs with the sensitivity of an octopus.

Intelligent design has it all over those dull boring evolutionists who keep talking about the eyeballs of human as a particularly stupid design, and a design that can be easily explained by evolution. So what if we all know that in an eyeball, putting the optic nerve in front of the photo receptors is just plain dumb? our intelligent designers were having a bad hair day. And now those Aliens must visit me, have a quick bonk, so that our next generation will have a clever eyeball.

But never mind
NEVER MI-I-I-IND!!
I'm an Ape, she's an Alien
And love is species blind.



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Kglitterous
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08:54:03 Aug 22 2006
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I had mentioned in House Eternal

quote
"I believe that the mind is part of the soul, and not a part of the brain. One should not inhibit the mind by what the brain is limited to. It is only recently that people have associated thought with the brain. It is probable that the brain is a safety cage for our mind, while we learn the ropes of it's true capability, in this first of worlds."

Perhaps witches vampires etc are simply those who have overcome the restraints of the brain.

In fact, if one were to believe that there are more advanced alien cultures, then as a race they could have discovered this skillset and could be assisting us with our developement. (Oh no, somebody shoot me; did that just sound like a Vampire Scientologist Statement?) Or, it could otherwise explain supernatural phenomena.


The Vegan Vampire:

The Vampire Herbivore concept was something that had only occured to me seconds before I posted it. I hadn't thought of it as applying to Evolutionary standpoint; however it is possibile to apply it to both views.

That we were created as Herbavore Vampires and that most people evolved into Omnivores.

Or
We were cursed to forget the gift of vampirism when we were thrown out of the garden, and thus tried to augment our loss by becoming omnivores.

Am I throwing this Off Topic?



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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17:07:35 Aug 22 2006
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satanicvampyre says:

"E vs. ID, ID loses everytime. ID, if it ever existed, in its finite wisdom, let a snake loose in the garden, mistake one, mistake two, created the GRAND CANYON by mistake, altough it's doing rather well, then left embarassed."

Actually, Evolution is the "accident" or rather the "mistake" theory. It states that all life arose from a happy accident of the mingling of cells to form amino acids, which in turn form proteins, etc...

The only replication of this that has ever been formed in a lab got so far as to form the amino acids but was never able to get the acids to form into proteins.

ID only presupposes that there is a higher form of intelligence in the universe than humans. And quite frankly, given our track record and the intellect of most of our world leaders (a "C" average?), the fact that "Baywatch" was on for so long, that Gallagher made a million dollars and the Olympic Ice Skating scandal, that isn't hard to imagine!

Miz - I am sure all the intergalactic vaginas are eagerly awaiting your seed to spawn a new generation of smarty pants. heh heh heh At least the universe will have humor!

K? You can throw this topic off all day - it is already totally out there. I was hoping to get more discussion on HOW VAMPIRISM MIGHT FIT INTO THESE TWO THEORIES. Hello?

sigh....



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STABB666
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21:29:03 Aug 22 2006
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MinaMurray,

I have a couple of theories for you.

The Evolutionary path;
Homo Erectus struggles agaisnt a harsh world. With competitors in the more physically developed Neanderthal's, hunted by prehistoric beasts, starving for lack of farming and living on a meagre gathering.

Cold, tired, scared and hungry. Recounts of the post WWII world, show that humanity can easily be driven to cannabilism. But if they all ate each other, how would they survive. And they likely would not eat their own.

In many countries, the fried blood of animals is commonplace. So, what if before fire, the blood was both nourishing and warm. To bleed one's own would cause little harm and perhaps develop into intimacy.

Perhaps as a means of survival, before humans found tools to hunt with, it was a neccessary act, a need for survival?


The Design path;
I'm not overly Christian, but my religious exposure has been more of that leaning, so I have to base my perspective of how the theory works, upon how I inteperate that religion.

The way in which I understand it, is that 'g*d' is a single universal consciousness of being, from which all others are derived. The nature of this one, is balanced, from where one part flows, it must be filled with another.

Vampyres must also have a function in such a system, perhaps as natural channelers or absorbers from those with additional energy, in the case of those who work with that, or with blood drinking, maybe as simply as a counterbalance to those who have the opposing state of being.

Isn't it said that everything has an equal opposite, perhaps in the intelligent design, vampyres are just that, but opposite to who and what?



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Kglitterous
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06:51:40 Aug 23 2006
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Satanic Vampire - this was not intended to be a forum for defending either theory

MinaMurray - same to you... LOL

Stabb - You and I seam to be opposites... Oh wait a minute, I don't believe in Duality... I guess we are not. *wink*

I'll agree with you in regards to the warm blood before we could control fire thing... I am gonna have to try that the next time I am cold... A vampiric Hot Toddy... Obviously I disagree with you on the duality issue, but we are not here to discuss the merits or fallacies of Duality either.

Miz - You are a twisted F'r, I love it.

-Kg



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ButterflyxTemptress
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07:28:58 Aug 23 2006
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Maybe it all comes down to Human nature and the fact we all have animal instincts. The thirst for power as well as the lust for blood.



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Kglitterous
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First off I think that human nature is what we use to overcome animal insticts.

I would like to talk about the evolution of lust for blood in humans for a moment. What do you supose the purpose for that is? I mean, it is almost as captivating as staring into a fire. Most humans have some form of facination or extream aversion to blood; is this that latent blood drinking for warmth and servival thing in humans?



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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22:23:20 Aug 23 2006
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lol STABB - you are starting to get existential with your bad self now! I love it :D

I think the ultimate debate truly has been "Why are we here?" Intertwining that question into the topic at hand of vampiric origins is a small attempt on my part to engage in intelligent discussion with others about that very question.

But I still wonder what the purpose of vampiric creation is even beyond the meaning of our own existence. What purpose do vampires serve and how do they fit into these theories?

What is their purpose?

Is Vampirism somewhat based in hedonism? If so, I would speculate that as you stated about duality, and I have long wondered, they are the "Antithesis", if you will, of "angels". That doesn't mean I think they are "bad" or serve the dark one (lol) - but that they are the opposite of angelic beings who give an outpouring of emotion and love and comfort - etc. - to humanity. Vampires, by the very definition of what they do and what they are, take from humans.

That isn't to say they are bad or good - that is simply a statement of fact as I see it.

So one answer for the ID theory is that vampires were created to be the photo-negative of an angel as all in our existence has to have some sort of balance.



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nobodysfallenangel
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00:21:30 Aug 24 2006
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All I have to say is. There is the hunter and the hunted. I do believe there is always something more out there that keeps the chain of life to a mininmum.~NFA



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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08:48:07 Aug 24 2006
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Vampires as a kind of evolutionary process is rehashed Social Darwinism, and Social Darwinism is barren like an old woman's shrivelled and shrunken genitals: the grey sunken cunt of the world. Vampires as a result of "survival of the fittest" is a misapplication of a biological theory, and as barren as Herbert Spencer's original philosophy:

Human society is always in a kind of evolutionary process in which the fittest- which happened to be those who can make lots of money--were chosen to dominate. There were armies of unfit, the poor, who simply could not compete. And just as nature weeds out the unfit, an enlightened society ought to weed out its unfit and permit them to die off so as not to weaken the racial stock.


I agree with Sir Glitterous in that vampirism is by design of man and exists in the mind of man. The lust for blood, the feeding on sexual energy is all controlled by the mind. Vampirism is a testament to the mind—man's ability to transform himself, and all it requires is the word vampire to do the metaphysical magic. But then again all real magic is done with words.



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KA0000
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09:32:51 Aug 24 2006
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Dark Greeting's, As I've said in many post's as a student of Anth,/Arch. The Junk DNA as science calls it isn't. Some of us have more DNA turned on than other's I feel Vampireism is part of that.I am not putting religion into this.As science goes there is much they don't know.DNA research is more advanced than it want's to let on.Vampireism is in all of us (I could Quote religion but won't) It i sall in the DNA.
Dark Blessing's,
KA



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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13:23:17 Aug 24 2006
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We know the vampire did not emerge fully fanged from the intergalactic vagina of Intelligent Design, and we know the old hag Evolution is barren. So where did vampires come from? The logical conclusion is of course metempsychosis. That is what the ancient Greeks called it, and it means the transmigration of souls. The Greeks used to believe you could be changed into an animal or a tree, for instance. What they called nymphs, for example. Vampires are man made, we change our souls using our minds.



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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16:47:17 Aug 24 2006
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Wow - great point KA0000! I never considered that DNA not being "turned on" could be an explanation. Interesting theory.

I like it because I am positive that certain "drugs" also open neural pathways in the brain and allow for a greater expansion of conscious thougth. Hence they are labeled "illegal" and anyone who makes these drugs if caught, is jailed for at least 5 years. Good old government control....

Miz - the idea that the Greeks had of transformation is fascinating as well. Certain Native American tribes held similar beliefs along the same lines.

It is certainly possible that vampirism is a man-made condition. If so then it totally negates both ID and that shriveled up theory of Evolution.

NFA - thanks for your input too. I always appreciate hearing from you.

I still somehoe think there is more to it than that though...

Good ideas folk! Keep them coming - I am learning a lot from you all!



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JacobLecore
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04:32:52 Aug 26 2006
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To live in darkness is to see the light......Perhaps a Vampire were to find himself having to adapt to a modern world where there was little place for there kind. Feeding on blood became an issue......Knowing that to reviel that there is such a thing as a real Vampire would be suicide for most all of them......The Vampire in my opinion would do what the Devil himself has done.....Make the world think he does not exist.....In my opinion it is the greatest trick he ever pulled......
Take that and think about it for a while.....



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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05:15:49 Aug 26 2006
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KA000 writes:

Vampireism is in all of us [...] in the [Junk] DNA.

Junk DNA? Horse shit!. Too bad you can't shovel the manure back into the horse.

Stabb writes

But by the same token, the mind does not create the physical any more than the other way around. There has to exist a pre-constructed energy formation into which, or onto which the id, soul, sprit, mind or self, must imprint.

Bah! Humbug! A retreat from knowledge into falsely profound answers. Back we go to Zen Buddhism.

But I'll repeat it for you," I say. "We believe the disembodied words of Sir Isaac Newton were sitting in the middle of nowhere billions of years before he was born and that magically he discovered these words. They were always there, even when they applied to nothing. Gradually the world came into being and then they applied to it. In fact, those words themselves were what formed the world. That, John, is ridiculous.
—Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig


What I mean is that there is a group of ordinary people who have decided to discover and employ other forces of nature (influencing someone at a distance, mind reading, etc.) and some of these people have discovered the ability to extract energy. The force has always being there but now we have a word for it, it is called vampireism. The cost is that you have changed your soul - you have awakened as a vampire.



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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07:55:30 Aug 26 2006
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Very good points, Miz.

Still...How does this idea of vampirism fit into the theory of Evolution? Of Intelligent Design?

That's what I want to know.



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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13:11:59 Aug 26 2006
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Fuck!

I Dunno!

An immortal that switches his soul from body to body as each body wears out is a complex life-cycle. And complex life-cycles seem hard to justify on the face of it. A vampire is employing a dicey strategy. And a strategy that does not seem to mesh well with evolutionary theory. You are have to got to creationism.

Here are some more organisms with complex life-cycles. The vampire I think fits neatly into the irreducibly grotesque category of organisms, such as the Cicada Killer Wasp, and the Candiru catfish.



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Kglitterous
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19:06:46 Aug 26 2006
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Ooooh, look at that. If you poke stab in the right combination he becomes a fountain of philosphy. Somebody do it again, but let me get my dictionary first and a large cup to catch some of this fount of knowledge.
*NOT sarcastic*



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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01:50:34 Aug 27 2006
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A quick summary of the difference between a dualist and a materialist.

[...] the dualist position holds that mind and consciousness resides in a realm outside the material world. Descartes ("I think, therefore I am") felt that the mind world and matter world could interact with each other, which he hypothesized occurred in the symmetric pineal gland. Leibniz's theory stated that all substances were composed of monads, an analog to the atom. These monads are the simplest substance that anything could be composed of, which in his theory automatically had perception and consciousness in the dual world as well. Berkeley ("to be is to be perceived") took the line of argument of the dualist that the material and mind worlds are separate further by hypothesizing that only the realm of consciousness was real. Johnson tried to refute his theory by kicking a rock, to show that matter does exist, as we can kick it, feel it, and see it. more...


Stabb writes

That my thoughts are developed by my conceiving of events, does not facilitate the birth of my being as a result of experience, imo.

No problems for a materialist, a soul can exist without a body. Just as a computer program can exist without being run on any specific computer, the software of a soul could be stored somewhere by some means, and then revived even after death of a material body.

The soul is as real as a carnal body
Needs none of this cant of monads
Software stored in pergatory
(Kicks a rock and scratches gonads).



So, hypothetically speaking, I would say that if God placed us all here for a reason which we have yet to understand and vampyres, hypothetically of course, do exist as a part of this plan and not as a result of the aforementioned process of evolving humanity, then the purpose must be to provide our knowledge and experience with what it is to be in a state defined as 'vampyric'.

I fixed your typo.



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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03:46:11 Aug 27 2006
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It is not me, you are the one with the wrong view of reality. Time is just an illusion and nothing ever changes. For example I was taught to think of my life as going on instant by instant. That is not how physicists think, they think in relativity. In relativity it is insightful to think of your life as a path in space-time that is all splayed out. That there is no individual events to your life it is just an unchanging existence in space-time. In relativity, it [edit]does make sense to think of your thoughts being shaped by your perceptions or your birth being caused by your experiences.



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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04:36:31 Aug 27 2006
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Are you speaking of the existence in your mind of multiple life times?

I can certainly relate to that.



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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05:01:45 Aug 27 2006
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We have a very similar outlook on that subject, then.

I have done extensive hypnosis work with myself and others and have actually healed people's emotions by being able to "see" images of their suffering in my mind while with them and articulate what that means when I "come to".

There have also been several past life incidences that I recall, quite vividly and the people have been factually proven to have lived.

I completely agree that there is a purpose in rebirth and I have no real "fear" of death (although I do attempt to live a quite healthy lifestyle with regards to diet, exercise, smoking , drinking etc...one gets smarter as one ages about vices usually) anyway...
Yes, life is about experiencing new ideas an opening new mental pathways for further expansion of something - the collective unconscious is as good a thing to call it as midichlorians.

I may not be able to articulate all my thoughts on such deep subjects with written words, but I can talk your ear off in person about metaphysics and my theories on all these interesting subjects.

I have been fighting with carpal tunnel lately...it is effecting my typing abilities a great deal - I need a keyboard break - :D



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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12:22:25 Aug 27 2006
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Fuck I just read what I wrote. Would someone edit my last post in the bit that says "does not make sense," to "makes sense." Otherwise the post doesn't make any sense.



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LadyRaisha
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13:09:27 Aug 27 2006
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A normal person uses approximately 10% of its brain. I beleive in Higher Intelligence. If we can train our brain to go past that 10%. we will sur[ass to the Higher Intelligence.

Now, I strongly beleive that Vampirisim always existed. Be it the same way it is today or if it has evolved as well no one knows for sure.

Another thing I do beleive in are Hybrids (the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics).



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shinedemongod
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13:40:20 Aug 27 2006
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this is interesting
i am venturing to post a collage and edited version of some posts made a while back on another topic regarding the validity of sanguinarism, it appears that this thread may be a valid field also for the text therein

all things that may appear out of context i am sure will be most gracefully overlooked



here it is

vampire is perhaps a stage in evolution and not a thing per se

it is the movement of the organism from matter to energy
the intake of more subtle forms of nutrition and stopping of the intake of matter has already begun

it is the germ of this movement in matter

there are already beings , demons, spirits and so on that feel on energy and more subtle forms of matter
they though are disembodied and so need the use of human beings from time to time

the human body is the pinnaclke of evolution bearing the seed to a thing that is beyong divinity beyond the ethereal even
a new matter

vampire is a stage

about time it is about death
time is death

speed of evolution is about experiencinfg that death at high speed

pain is about death and time

it can happen now
in fact it always happens now

there is also the matter of the validity of the "fictional vampire " within the reality structure , it must be plausible for it to manifest, assuming ofcourse that manifestation is a reality and natural process

imagination is just that , imagination, it is also a reality in its own right a creation and universe, but it is governed by the god that created it, in this case many many minds and wills, the conglomeration of generations and passing the parcell that has created this fiction


perhaps the validity and extent of validity of modern diagnostic methodology is what here is really the thing that is brought into question here

for instance the basis of distinction between matter and spirit being one of faith or belief as opposed to experience, that matter is the realm of existence that is tangible , can be felt ,held, is subject to scientific enquiry , that can be dirctly percieved and experienced by the senses, and spirit is that realm of reality that must be only believed in, some sentiment and feeling invested with suppositional value, needing to be affirmed from time to time

what if matter is but a denser form of the ethereal

what if in it is clothed the ethereal

we may go even so far as to suggest that reality is an oscillation between matter and energy or spirit or what is known as the wave nature of reality

the old dillemma of "is light matter or wave"

for reality is really about light or sound , anyway you like to look at it


perhaps this oscillation is what enables both material and spirit to exist together and seperately at the same time

perception is then about a resonance with the frequency of oscillation, the closer one one vibrates to the frequency of reality, the closesr is ones perception to the actual natuire of reality

the issue of the doctor is finally resolved as diagnosis and experimental techniques

which further reduces to a test condition and the sample, or patient, or phenomenon

all this assumes that the test conditions are not subject to change

the margin of error determining the accuracy of the results as always

what if like we suggested earlier blood is both its physical compnents, RBCs WBCs Platelets and so on, as well as red essence, as well as the memory of its living and vitality, as well as the medium by which live manifests itself in the body
what if all these realities exist , together , seperated by a half cycle of an oscillation

matter wave,matterwave and so on

what if there is a near simultaenaety of existence

as in when one tunes into the radio, how all the stations are always there, yet one listens to the one that one has tuned into the one that ones resonated most sympathetically to, one reality manifests, inspite of the simultaenous existence of many

what if perception decides reality

after all what is reality

we are told it is eventually protons and neutrons and so on, we are told it is also trees and biology and gravity

this thread is very interesting in that it in its own way questions the extent to which diagnostics and the observation to theory process which is its base is valid


perhaps blood is the exact shade of red, that some photochemical reaction requires, maybe it is just about that

perhaps haemoglobin is the exact substance that a metabolic process is lacking


theories and theories

it is the same on both sides of the thing

it is all after all only theories
science is after all a theory, a supposition and construction

the supposition is the point at which its reality fractures, till then it yeilds quantifiable explanation


perhaps all of it is only about a race to whose supposition is more real lol

whose imagination is less imaginary

proof, what is the basis of proof, we rarely ask this question

we rarely question the validity of proof itself

it is always assumed as if by magic or conjuring that proof the concept of proof is beyond question

we have perhaps made a papacy of proof




the concept of inner ,outer and skin here perhaps is the point

horizon and edge

the edge that presumably seperates

what if this edge itself is the construct

that this seperation is the things that seperates so to speak

there is an interesting question that is raised here, one of evolution, and the crucial points, where the thing did go down

for instance the first fish that began to breathe air,
that came out of the water's edge, that till then was the universe to it, the real, and science, and provable, beyond which lay the unknown air, that suffocated

did this fish perhaps not have to die on that unknown shore as fish , did not perhaps this fish have to relinquish gills and become lungs, to transform, to metamorphose,

who saw this fish i wonder recorded this moment, was it not such a beautifully lonely moment ,truly and in every way

this is not science fiction that this example is from bythe way, but the implication of genetic evolution theory, one that usually supposes a gently transition from tree to land to two limbs to tools and so on, that does not raise shocking situations, unbelievable and magical almost situations like this one

for the first fish to have evolved lungs something very much like this needs to have transpired, as it was

it could have been only about one fish, not some gentle process over many thousands of years

this covers the matter of transformation and the fact that genetic theory is based on it, whether one looks at it this way or not, it is the natural implication thereof

the matter you raised, of fangs and so on right about now seems very plausible compared to this transformation of the very organ system of an organism, the very restructuring of an entire anatomy, and physiochemical system

not even a reprogramming but another thing altogether

i have purposely veered away from the matter of mind and matter, will and afirmation

of will and affecting change,
that route becomes about a dialectic, which is just more yeses and nos
more opinions and more things to be proved, more papacies

that matter is also not so much about discussion than experience and experimentation

hallucination if willed and backed strongly enough perhaps becomes pseudoreality also, as in how the memory of an event or person, their reality statement in the present can be doctored

and that is just a conjuring, a sleight of hand and trick of time


real proof is perhaps about experience, that proof is more a continuum than an event
yes that is the thing perhaps whre the error occurs in assuming proof as a thing out of the time matrix, the continuity

perhaps the body is the ultimate field of all phenomenon, the only field even maybe

the laborotory scientist and experiment itself

yantra ,tantra and mantra , perhaps all reside in the body, to borrow sanskrit terminology


we have so far spoken about these things only in very objective terms, in this language, that keeps the element of opinion and undefined terms and concepts out


also everything is natural

since nature is the field where all processes occur , for something to be unnatural it would necesarity have to exist outside of this feild

the left handed path is exactly about accepting all that is natural

darkness, danger ,fear, natural disasters, death and pain,

that is why the terrifying deities

they are meant to scare the denial out of the aspirant

but all this is tangential


it is already about prana

consumption of blood is still a less evolved form


subtlety makes for greater freedom and access to the depths of the human body, and its true potential

as the I begins to identify with less gross elements finer sublte elements, its reality and the rules that govern that reality too become subtle


the supernatural abilities and so on

are actually just a clearer view of nature
it is all nature,

layers and layers of reality

the layer one identifies, one is bound to
when one identifies overly with material one is subject to the laws of material or the earth element like density, grouinding, securitty, congealing, gravity, inertia and so on

it is the things base the I on that determine the nature of how that I manifests


what if reality is actually unlimited and limitation is the skin , by whose means manifestation may occur

that without limitation nothing would exist

it is however important to understand this matter from a non polar or moralistic or sociological point of view, from any point of view whose cbasis is a construct, however good and usefull that construct may be

this is a matter of reality


also the matter of both understanding and environment are products of thought and mind

we are speaking of the self, the I the master of mind, the thing for which mind is a tool a means to function

the key word being identification as opposed to thought

thought is but memory a replaying of perception, sensation and impression

identification is about being the thing that is identified with

all doubt and crisis of the human condition is about a dilemma in identification

immunity is about identification

when every cell is bathed by the blanket of the I

when every cell knows that it belongs to I

and then that I identifies with what it determines to be reality , from there the mind, cells and so on derive their realities
not the other way around

there are many methords, one is to determine what is not I in this mess that we find ourselves

this is usually preliminary amd amounts o letting go and releasing patterns that no longer serve the purpose of the I

health is perhaps about a consistency in the I
and a harmonious relationship between the I and nature

and nature is a form of truth


yes these paradigms are constructs

structures and machines which serve a specific purpose for a period of time

like first grade books in first grade like university books in unioversity like research material whilst one is doing a phd

they are not reality , but tool to arrive at reality

they are things in time

depending on what one is requiring at the time within the greater scheme of ones overall agenda

the agenda of agendas being liberation freedom, truth, bliss, hapiness , contentment etc

also identification is an action, an afirmitive, process, not so much reflexive or reactionary

if it were it would merely be a replaying of another thing

like when we say that we have identities

we are here speaking about an actual inquiry into the nature of this I

this I whose awareness is falsely assumed every time we begin to speak

also perhaps a clearer understanding of this I may further lead to insights into you, and we, and they

maybe this is what the cord compassion means

that when one understands ones I one automatically understands, to that extent the I that manifests as the other

perhaps when one allows freedom to oneself to be, that freedom begins to extend to the other

the matter of the other is brought in here to elucidate the concept of evironment

the apparent source of pain and pleasure

there are two processes then that we have spoken of

one aims at being more aware of the present identifications of this I, the many things that I think, feel, believe that I am,

and the other to create an I through a conscious process of selective identification

both ofcourse are mutually inclusive and are informed by the other


also all concepts we have discussed, individuality, identity , environment, crisis etc can be perhaps more simply understood in these terms

this also ofcourse at some point is a machine and construct as it is based in language, grammar and the illusion of space time causation and continuity

it is though a useful machine at this time and may be used to fulfil a purpose

like all machine when one reads more meaning into it than there is , one faces conflict from its unreal aspects

that brings us to the point of clarity of intent, purpose and ones own schema

that one has developed oneself for specific purpose

perhaps a continous awareness in real time of ones intent , is the thing that may take away confusion with regards to our dilemmas as to whay am I here, doing this and so on

when one takes full responsibility for ones condition and movement , the other then is instantly nullified

all then is brought back to self

again and again it comes back to self till it is perfected
till as the buddhists say ,the form is perfected

one is then free from the limitations of projection; blaming, envy, jealousy, greed etc

one can then use them to ones advantage


one is then in a real sense free ,or moving in that general direction, if there is such a thing as direction that is






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shinedemongod
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13:43:10 Aug 27 2006
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much of the writers veiws regarding many of the things mentioned above have however been altered as views do with greater awareness and recontextualisation, the text though is valid from the point of the premisis it is based on



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leviathandelioncourte
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01:06:40 Aug 28 2006
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I think that when the human race evolved, vampires or our kind as some put it were a simple mutation within the body, that made us (vampires) become what we are now...none the less even if we are some genitic mutation, we are continuously evolving even right now as I speak we are evolving and become a higher species, for example...someone with mental telepathy,or esp...the could one day wake up and realize they have that certian gift, and slowly progress to the point of mental force. Or become able to lift object with their mind....Abywayz back to the subject at hand, we as vampires are our own intelligence, we exist and science cannot explain it. When you ask someone in the medical field about vampirism they either question everything or they lock you up in a psyc-ward...the bottom line though is this, People, vampires, we are all evolving. Nothing that can stop it, its change...it will alwayz happen and must happen, but how we let it affect our lives is a different story.



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JedixMasterxCheryl
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15:50:52 Aug 29 2006
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I agree that we are all evolving to a certain extent as we have learned to adapt to surroundings.

I am still questioning the why of vampirism and how it fits into either (or really any) theory of existence.

There are some good ideas here. I am enjoying the discussion and the various theories that have been set forth.



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Simona
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04:04:14 Sep 03 2006
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I would have to agree w/ the majority here who think that vampires are here as a type of regulator for the human race. I believe in intelligent design to some degree and this would work nicely in that theory.



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Xzavier
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19:31:19 Sep 03 2006
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Vampyres fall into the Theory of Intl. Design. I am a scientist and have found little proof of any thing but some sort of design.
Been around much longer than evolution would give us.



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highadder
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01:53:05 Sep 04 2006
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Wow! Ok as I began reading this post I thought "ok, this is going to be intense." Needless to say, I was not disappointed. After all that, I felt as though I would like to respond to many of the things that were said. I will however, just answer the question of topic - as I see it.

Just for the record I conceive of both Evolution and Intelligent Design. How and why is not relevent to this topic, as stated.

The Vampire has always existed, since the begining; as history will acount. The Vampire in history was an energy gathering entity. Somewhere along the line of Time humans began to cash in on this idea. Thus you have the birth of humanoid psychic vampires.

Cannabalism is a very ancient practice indeed. The ancients would drink from the dead, from fallen worriors in the belief that they would gain the strength and power of that individual. As in aboriginals eating the heart of their prey to gain its strength and might.

Later in history after the idea of "blood is the life" had been firmly established, there was a melding of these two points.

Thus you have the concept of what we think of as a Vampire. With those two points in mind it is evident that the sangi vampire evolved from the psy vampire. As means of bringing into a more concretized form.

*highadder braces for the stones --



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highadder
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02:02:17 Sep 04 2006
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Correction of my last line:

Thus you have the concept of what we think of as a Vampire. With those two points in mind it is evident that the sangi vampire evolved from the psy vampire. As a means of bringing it into a more concretized form of reality.



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Kglitterous
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02:23:27 Sep 04 2006
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Perhaps, Vampirism is actually the natural and/or origionally created condition. Perhaps those who do not, or can not, manipulate energy are the abboration.

I mean barring the undead theories. Allthough who's to say that antilife doesn't exist... I mean if anti-matter theory can exist, why not antilife? If one were to believe in Duality... one has to belive in antilife in order to avoid hypocracy... wouldn't one?



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18:13:42 Sep 04 2006
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Both in my mind are correct.

Originally I think we came from some sort of intelligent design, which over time has evolved, similar to how our belief systems have.

Someone mentioned cannibalism, for many of these cultures it was for the purposes of absorbing the power or energy if you would, of their enemies. I do not think that Vampires are any different. Are they our human control? I disagree with that.

I think there are other mental illnesses that are more of the control of humanity, too many people associate and feel from blood. There is knowledge in blood that transfers, perhaps it was put there originally so that we could commune and understand each other. Add to the equation that many vampires have feelings and morals, then you take away the ability to control. Sociopaths, there is a control for you.

A metaphor seems to speak more about this than anything else. Our own vitality is linked to the essence of our blood and we all have an attachment to our blood, otherwise shedding of blood would be no big deal. But is very intimate and alluring. It is hard to say at this point if we still have the intelligent design guiding us, or if in fact we were designed and then left to evolve as an experiment.

We are born in blood and we die in blood.




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