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The Coven of Murmur is hosting a new Philosophy project. Every two weeks a new philosophical article will be posted on our Murmonic Mind Meld page for discussion in this forum thread.

As of today the first article is posted. If you are interested in participating in the discussion please post your comments about the piece here in this forum thread.

Please keep the comments and feedback on topic, clear, concise, and kind. Any off topic or unnecessary comments will be deleted. Any post that violates the VR Forum guidelines as posted here will also be deleted.

Now with all that legal business aside, shall we begin the discussion?

If you are interested in joining in, please click on the following link to visit the latest Murmonic Mind Meld article, and post your feedback for discussion in this thread.

Enjoy!

This was a very interesting piece.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between the two theories.

Let me take the cyclical therory as the "baseline". A succession of civilizations which start, build, reach a peak and then decline. There is ample evidence that this has taken place. However, in my opinion, after the "peak" of the civilization the decline never reaches the state where things were less advanced than they were at the start of the rise. Not everything is forgotten.

In this case the cycle of advances and decline would be plotted on a slowly ascending baseline.

Excellent point. One I had not considered before. So in building on the fallen civilizations the younger has a higher base upon which to begin. Wonderful accessment, thank you.

i think this is a great idea ...and i wish you good luck in it...*smile*

Believing in intelligent design as I do, I believe that both are true. Society is everadvancing... that is in the design. Each "Prophet" came at a time and place at which the world was morally and culturally decayed. With each "Prophet", civilization, culture, and Morality showed Significant Advances very shortly therafter.

I found this very interesting. I happen to believe that both theories are true.
When you look at the linear theory it is almost exclusive to the advancements mankind has made in knowledge and technology. On the other hand the cyclical theory is more applicable to mankind itself. Our mental and emotional advancement that determine our decisions and actions. With a few notable exceptions the human race continues the same path as our ancestors trod all being led by our emotional needs. Greed for land and wealth still lead to wars as it has always done, grief and anger at the loss and destruction caused by war are usually what brings it to an end. Governments still rise and fall by use of force. So while the human race may have made great advancements in our knowledge of science and technology our emotional development has not shown nearly enough advancement for the Linear theory to be completely correct and those very advancements make the Cyclical theory nonexclusive.

Thank you, Tammy. *smile*

Kglitterous, Nightgame and KCRC:

As I see it, and this is personal opinion of course, I don't think the two lines can be considered under a single headline. Meaning the technical advancements must be considered parallel but seperate to the 'evolution of man', as I call it. As Nightgame points out, though we have advanced in technology, we don't seem to have advanced emotionally as a species. Thus it comes back to improving productivity through improving machines, but improve man and you gain a thousandfold. We can see the improvement of machines on our productivity, but, again, as Nightgame points out, man still falls into the same patterns. True we are slightly improved with the foundations of previous civilization, but our own improvement has not advanced nearly as quickly, in fact nowhere close to, the improvement of our technology.

well I guess I shall play the hard arguement and say it as all forgoten and we are just rediscovering it. in the hindu Mahabharata there is described radiation fall out and cities being wiped out by atomic bombs. and this is so far before christ it is not funny.

then there is the Vimana-Vailix battle on the moon which is still beyond us.

and so you guys dont think I just belive books some proof When the Rishi City of Mohenjodaro was excavated by archaeologists in the last century, they found skeletons just lying in the streets, some of them holding hands, as if some great doom had suddenly overtaken them. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on a par with those found at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ancient cities whose brick and stonewalls have literally been vitrified, that is-fused together, can be found in India, Ireland, Scotland, France, Turkey and other places. There is no logical explanation for the vitrification of stone forts and cities, except from an atomic blast.

Futhermore, at Mohenjo-Daro, a well planned city laid on a grid, with a plumbing system superior to those used

now for the personal development as a civilisation. I think we just loop in circles and then kill each other hence the old atomic wars. so one would think there comming again not that im doom saying or anything. but hey we need only look around us to see that violance and ignorance is on the rise. to do a degree these days is not to learn about morals and how to learn but how to do a monkeys job and follow blindly with no opinion. once if you were a phd you were given a lab to work in and told to go for it now they put you in a team and you make them money so they can control the people.
it will all come around I think just as the mayans incans and first dynasty of ming have said.

Though I don't believe that I'm as widely read as you are on the subject of which you speak, I am not entirely unfamiliar with it. The technological advancement is thus sustained as a linear concept, and the cyclical advancement is also sustained. Man improves machine, in the case of which you speak, perhaps over and over again, but never improves himself. Thus my last post still stands. Perhaps the two concepts must be looked at seperately, rather than jointly, with the linear advancement falling solely in the purvue of technological advancement while they cyclical theory falls to the area of actual human development.

well there are some good points here.
If you look at some of the ancient cultures,they seem to have done thing far beyond there means and then just up and fell apart so I would have to say that this would seem the norm for all cultures.
as for our own today how long untill we start to fall apart? I think it is happening already.

No matter how big our cerebral cortex becomes, or how much of our brain we develope, man is a primal being. The cyclical theory basically facilitates this concept. Man developes a superior society only to lose it through self serving primal instincts of attaining pleasere at all cost.

exelent point DarkAngelGina I could not have said it better.

True, however the entirety of religeon is the process of overcoming that with our spiritual nature. Some believe we are currently living in a "judgement day" (1000 year cycle) in which humanity makes the transition from a primal being to a spiritual being.

we like to consider ourselves more civilised and enlightened than our forebearers, but the truth is that there were ancient philosophers just as enlightened as anyone today.order grows from chaos, and new societies grow - only to decline - it's happened so many times before, it would be hubris to believe it wont happen again (or isn't happening now). what does progress - despite a few setbacks whenever a society collapses - is technology. true - some ancient civilisations had knowledge we are only just rediscovering - but on the whole it progresses. true - the egyptians had a basic knowledge of electricty, but there is nothing to suggest they had the internet - or that the Mayans had robots to help them build their cities. maybe eventually the technology will take over, and develope its own philosophy.

my question is were did the guys with the nukes go :) now answer that one and you have the riddle that I think is where we were ment to aim for. truly they left for a reason I think and maby becouse they were doing us no good. if we truly had nuclear tech would we not have a more thorough record of the past. these diggings can not be overlooked there straight out fact. not fiction. there was something here that started us no question about it and it was not a god or they would not have used nuclear tech to fight here.

dude egypt is nothing look into india thats were its at :)

as for computers and internet how does on get to the moon unless they can map a tranjetory throught the holes in our ozone layer. and no mind I know of can do such a thing. not with out a lot and I mean heaps of time to do so and pre checking and such. then put a war in space not possible with out computing tech. personaly I think the bible is a chinese wisper and the key is in science. we were created in there genetic image they took the tech with them and to be honest I think we were not kicked out of paridise but left behind. after all a monkey see a monkey do hence the egyptions and electricity. so are we the same or are we different. the genetics would be I think so does that make them part of our race. this is documented in heaps of indian text and proven in scientific findings all over the world. its not a phylosiphers debate but rather a finding of science. to be able to sit and look at ones life and wonder why we went wrong is just a language development. to be able to explain the obvious but to develop space tech and have wars of such a nature is a compleatly different thing. and to add to it they were just like us or there would have been no wars and no scientific evedence. you dont see this stuff on tv its only in old religios text and digg reports.
but its there.

I must agree with dark angel though. the only thing that can save us I think are some of the seeds in religoun like budism and hindu that belive that we should keep a karma system (wicca as well) to save our ultimate souls. the worst thing that could have happened to this world was christianity and lavey after all to be forgiven at all costs just by asking and to be self serving and selfish are the two things that make this circle.

onto the callanders of maya inca and ming the first. you dont worship your computer. thats a human development. why then would they worship something they made ?????? good question is it not.

ill leave it at that for now. now please to make this a fair arguement ;) give reference to what you say. I shall furnish some dig reports of what I have said. as I have listed the books and I doubt a single one of you will read them I shall also give you sitations of the books :)
to be honest though dark angel was truly insitefull on this matter. may you find buddha in your heart dear :)

No-one is going to argue that there haven't been individuals who are ahead of their times... even individual cultures that have been progressive (perhaps even more prgressed than we are today) but as a whole... the entirety of the earth?
How often has the earth as an organism, seen a serrious backslide? This is what I am trying to convey. The earth has on occasion had very prgressive aspects and very decayed aspects... but as a whole it improves. The process of this is cyclical... No one aspect has not seen a cycle and the entirety has progressed.

Excellent points, all.

Hmm. Now. Man is a primal being. But that doesn't mean that he cannot overcome it. There are those who get past that part of themselves. We call these men honorable and noble. Since some have done this, why can't others?

But, saddely, it does seem that our society, like so many before is in a decline. But does that mean that we cannot pull ourselves out?

I have found this to be extremely interesting. I believe that both philosophies must work together in some way, because each is so accurate.

Indeed, mechelle007, I agree with that. I think that this particular area should be seperated into the advancement of technology and the advancement of the species, as you suggest.

I thank you all for participating in this, and would like to remind everyone that a new topic will go up every two weeks. Everyone is welcome to participate and express thier views on the subject at hand.

Also, please keep in mind that anyone who has an idea for a topic could write one up and send it to either Pookahchu or myself. It has come to my attention that there may a problem with the message link that Pooka put up, so you may have to go to one of our profiles in order to message us.

Thank you again,

Shadow

What a wonderfully thought out and well written idea. I think once a society reaches it's pinacle human nature takes over. It falls. But the next time it reaches even greater heights. Maybe it is the way the human spirit learns.

That's how the human spirit learns. Could be, certainly, nice point. Repetition is a common means of teaching.

EXCELLENT!! Intellectualism at it's finest! I happen to agree with cyclical. The best example I can offer,, and of course this is only my opinion, is warfare. Here we have man's ability too produce weapons that are technologically far more advanced than our third world counter-parts,, but yet we have reached a standstill,, because we are still risking the lives of soldiers in order to use them. Again,, this is only my opinion,, and I may be wrong.

NiteCreature. An opinion is never right or wrong, it is a point of view.

On the subject of arms, I disagree with you. I believe that line to be linear. The reason we still risk lives is because the alternative would be too terrible to consider.

Firstly theres nuclear devastation. No one would win in a nuclear war. The united states, alone, has enough nukes to destroy the world three times over.

Secondly, what would happen if we took the human element out of war? War would likely become the first option rather than the last. After all, if pushing a button destroys a city, who cares? What might be forgotten is the fact that a city is not just brick, stone, pavement and glass. There are living being that inhabit it.

Soldiers see who they kill, largely, and so war is still a terrible thing. Your not blowing up a 'city'. Your taking a life. An enemy, yes, but a life none the less.

this is one of the best threads i have read. and will keep an eye on. i have learned a lot from the post here.

I'm glad that you enjoy it Neodragon. I've learned things myself, and have enjoyed it as well. I like hearing peoples viewpoints, it's interesting to see from the perspective of others, in order to expand upon your own.

Wow this was a really great post! Really makes you stop & think, so different from alot of others where you can just rattle of an answer quickly! Great idea you had here!
I think the answer is somewhere between the two theories!

I agree . And thank you thank you for this thread..finally something intelligent to discuss instead of are vampires real etc..

Well there will be a different item up for discussion on a fairly regular basis. I do hope everyone continues to participate in the discussions. And thank you for your enthusiasm, it is most rewarding. *smile*

Interesting reading,and i,ve had to read twice to come up with something.we are in constant evolution life and technological wordly,but things happen to come back around,like the age old saying that you reap what you sow,keeping an open mind and being willing to learn and having the courage to face things is the key,life is a learning curve.

i agree...this is good thread and an awsome idea....good to have something new for a chan ge...

Thank you. There's been a delay in the next article due to unforseen issues. If not resolved soon, then I shall see about posting the next one soon, myself.

Thank you,

Shadow