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Okay, I posted this is my journal, but I would like some opinions.

As taken from my journal:
I am taking a speech class this semester. One of our projects is to present a speech in which we demonstrate how to do something. My idea was to show how to cast a spell, a natural thing for a witch.

Well, there is a mormon in our class (and goddess only knows if there are crazy ass catholics), so my professor said no to my idea, even though she herself didn't have a problem with it.

I feel very annoyed that although there is such a thing as religious freedom in this country, OUR religion gets shot down, or ignored, or whatever else when there are other more conventional religions involved. "We can not offend the religions who don't believe." That is so wrong!

Am I just being bitchy because I don't understand and don't want any part of coventional catholicism/christianity/mormon belief systems? Or do I have a valid point? What do you guys think?

I have to agree for it is the same way for Satanists..Doesnt matter who we are or what we believe it is how we present our-self..

you do have a very valid point
religons such as the ones stated are more popular and have a wider range of believers.
And it is unfair that your idea got "shot down" just because it offends someone in the class, if thats the case why dont they just simply not attend the class or learn to be my open minded.

*more open minded* stupid typo

If you came at it from a scientific point of view they wouldnt be able to deny it.

They cannot discrimintate you and you have legal recourse under the civil rights act of 1964 to be able to bring your work to the table so long as it is well thought out.

I think the mainstream world is not willing to accept that kind of religion. I personally think , it's ok .....but thats me! Religon is a personal thing , and no one has the right to tell anyone his or her religion is wrong. Being open to learn how others view things spiritually is interesting.

I agree so much with what has already been said.

It is a perfectly vaild point of view, as their is so much to the big wide world that people in college are there to come out of the box and learn something new. If they don't like something they have an obligation to keep their mouths shut for once and learn something new.

"Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to
adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people."
- George Bernard Shaw

I apologize for the comment about the possiblity of there being catholics in my class. I literally copied and pasted the forum post from my journal and didn't think to remove that comment for the purpose of the discussion here. My deepest apologies.

I fear for the sake of minority religions if classrooms become fair play for religious conversions/propoganda.

If it was a theology class, by all means. If you spoke of wiccan ideas behind natural herbal remedies where religion was second to the speech, once again its a different story.

Would I be offended if someone from another religion was given the space to discuss their faith, and mine wasn't, yes. But seeing how the LDS student and the others were not (i'm assuming) giving speeches on aspects of their faith, than the nuetral classroom environment should stand.

it comes down to this - should intolerance be tolerated? It's like a gay person having to keep their sexual preference a secret in case they offend non-gays, or someone in a wheelchair not being allowed in a restaurant because it offends "able bodied " patrons. what next? should blacks wear masks so as not to offend racists?

But if its from a scientific point of view that is non religious but merely a speech about a system of operation that encompases a state of being. I see no reason why anyone should have been offended.

Well, the fact of the matter is that the other students of different faiths could in fact present a speech based on thier religious preferences. There was never any statement made that it was not allowed.

Like previously said, if you ask your professor if you can present it in a scientific way, no-one should get offended, and nobody should have any obligation

But did anyone make such a speech? You cannot assume the Professor to have thought out all the angles that s/he might get in trouble for while writing the syllabus. Who is to say that your prof. would have prohibited a Catholic speech?

that is not right i would talk to someone at the school about it

i mean like the dean or someone

Point taken. She kind of mentioned (as stated in my original post) that I could do it as an informational speech, but I have my topic selected for that and don't want to change it just I'm annoyed that I can't do my demonstration. She won't let me do anything related to witchcraft if it involves a demonstration of any sort, even if approached in a scientific manner. I asked her. I think I'm just taking offense because I've had this problem in the past, and I get tired of walking on eggshells because of other people's religious beliefs. Ya know?

The thing that irks me, is that if someone DID do a speech like that...although I may not like it, I would listen and give it my best try to be understanding and at least try to give that person the respect of understanding that the topic is important to them, even though it may mean nothing to me.

If she was willing to let you speak about your faith in the informational speech, then how do you view the action as discriminatory? If the LDS did a how to speech on being baptised for the dead, or the Catholic did how to properly say the rosary, you might find yourself a wee bit offended.

See, but that's the thing. I don't get offended by other people's religion. Annoyed, yes...but not really offended. People have the right to believe whatever they want. I don't appreciate people trying to convert me. That's the difference.

But no one did a speech, correct? The scenerio running through your head is not applicable. You don't know what the prof would have done other than by how she interacted with your ideas- meaning that it is allowed for informative and not how to.

yeah...essentially.

you could do demonstration via a chalk board and there are diagrams and things that can show your point.

But if its not something that you are doing then you should just let this one go and come at it again from another more scientific point of view, which requires a knowledge of the sciences, and a greater understanding of the Caballa, the Zohar, the Sefer Yezirah, the three books of Occult Philosophy, the Magus, Magick book 4, as well as Psychonaut and the Liber Kaos, and some tibetan works,

I am not attackign any here, or trying to offence any here but it seems that "new " religion or minority in one country are getting an easier acceptance then the ones who are not so "new" or minority, no offence here but just in the next won they made it forbided to have chrisma tree on the street cause it was offending other religions, but the same ppl who aks to hav eit taken off will gladely take the holliday off work....how hypocirte....

Thats not the case thought Cryingmist. The prof was going to let her do a religious oriented speech in the informative speech rather than how to. She wasn't forbiding any discussion over alternative religions, just regulating them to a particular speech assignment.

If the only subject criteria is that it be a demonstrative speech and she did not list limits to what your topic could be, The prof should have a problem with it regardless of its subject.

...But then again, the prof is the final say.

I believe you have a very valid point and I also believe that people, no matter what they believe or who they believe in should have a right to that opinion or belief and that it is totally wrong for people to respect one relgion and not another.

The only argument against it is if it was something that had to have a verifiable outcome (i.e. this is how to fold a napkin) then it might be justified. But considering it was a speech class, no, there is no reason you should not have been granted the request based upon freedom of religion. I don't follow or subscribe to your religion (if you label it as such) but i would defend your right to practice it to the death.

I think that they may have grounds for a couple reasons but the best solution would be to ask the teacher what their reason was...

A) conducting a session on spell casting would be similar to having a christian conduct a lession on how to pray. I don't think you'd appreciate someone telling you that. Both situations bring religion into the classroom which I tend to oppose.

B) this could also be a situation where the speech was to be about something physical with clear action and result or end...like how to balance a checkbook (at the end, the checkbook is in fact balanced). Spells, magic or any thing that requires faith as the last step, doesn't give a clear result to your actions and might therefore be lacking an clear end to what you're doing. With a spell, you know you're done when...

It's not nice that people dont accept all religions. My friends understand me so I am lucky.

This isn't about acceptance but the role religion plays in schools.

That's actually something you can take up with your Dean. Unless you're actually preaching I don't believe that he can absolutely say no but I would find out what your school's policy is about religion first.

That is so wrong.
If I was you I'd protest for my rights.
You know damn well if any Mormon/Catholic/Christian would want to do a presentation about how Noah survived the flood or Jesus turned water into whine they'd be allowed.
Where do they draw the line when deciding which belief is more important over the other.
They have taken you rights and thrown them down the drain.

I think it is all a title that everyone pusts on each other. Wiccan,santanic whatever I hate being titled that is y i just call myself a witch.

I feel that it is a wise thing to keep church and state separate, so to speak. I am all for a person being allowed their right to choose the path they wish to take but school is not the place for one to exercise it.

Here comes my 2 cents....I don't practice any form of religion nor do I have a problem listening to anyone speeking about religion, but this doesn't come down to personal belives. This would probably fall under "seperation of church and state". many may argue practicing witchcraft is a form of orginized religion, hense being denied your request. Not that long ago the pledge of allegance came under fire for have the word god in it. even though it doesn't state a specific "god" the word itself was the problem. since then many school districts even those for colleges and high education have had to changed policies in reguards to relogion. so the teacher dening you request to use a spell may fall under the idea of being a religous expression, and not an attack on you personally. again this is my 2 cents..(pls excuse the spelling errors.

i think u have a point,well basically i will just say if u are not allowed to practice ur own spell or wateva i think no other religion are expected to participate aswell,and since when did education start critisizing religion.

i think u have been denied ur own human right by violation of freedom of social and human believe's i advice u go back to ur teacher and prove ur point to her and besides what is with the class mormon about.if they like let em listen and if they dont let em bounce when u doing urs.

and i am pretty sure if they listen to u some of em will like wat u are doing i am 100% sure give it a go again

piratedean I suggest you read what Sevenn wrote, as it explains why this is not a good idea.

It's funny how people love to discuss their beliefs, yet do not have patience for anothers. Remember while you find it wonderful and fascinating others do not relate to your religion in the same way.

If it is information, that is one thing, but often times we get blinded by what we see as 'normal' others are put off by.

Think of a chocolate bar- I LOVE dark chocolate. Now while I can tell people all about the benefits of pure cocoa, most will still prefer their milk chocolate *yuck* See- I just related a candy to this discussion.

If you really want to share, find ways that are appropriate for the class, and don't take it personally if they tell you that you want to go too far. It is a belief and honestly it is your personal attachment that is clouding your judgement.

i never figured that religion would be a part of school now days since they seperate that from state well here in the u.s. the do. but i am sure that project should have an interesting aspect to it.

To play Devil's Advocate......

I'm thinking there would be a protest of the same nature if, say, a Catholic were to ask to give a demonstration on how to properly say the rosary. Just look at the uproar over such things as the mention of God in the Pledge of Allegiance, or display of the Ten Commandments in public courthouses. Your teacher may feel that a display of a religious ceremony in a public classroom may be veiwed by some as proselytizing. *shrugs* And I'm agnostic, so I'm not taking anyone's side, just saying......

From this point forward any post done that puts down another religion will be deleted.

And I agree with above, as I think that is why your teacher said no. Not the other "opression" theories.

this might have been said above somewhere however,
keep in mind in the constitution were the whole freedom of religion was posted at that time era, which has yet to be updated honestly

some religions are yet to be seen as a religion but rather that of some occult gathering. until the government gets off their high horse to reckonize these religions whether they be pagan,wiccan, or what ever a person wants to call theirs, It really will only be accepted by open minded people or those involved with that religion

While I hate to even say it...I think your professor made the correct decision. I am a witch and I follow a pagan path, however, I don't think school is a proper place to exercise your religious beliefs in any way. You mentioned you have no problem being tolerant of other's beliefs so long as you weren't trying to be converted. It's possible that a demonstration of this sort might cause others to feel you were trying to convert them as well. I'm all for religious rights, but also for a peaceful existence..and religion ...any religion...just has no place in a classroom unless the subject is theology.

alot of this it going on, if one religion can show case itself all should be able to provided no human or animal is harmed...what a bunch of crap...

Another thing to think about is why you feel it's important to do this demonstration for your classmates.

Have your classmates shown interest in your religion?

Or is this a response to the feelings that you've been looked down upon for your practices?

If you're using your religion as a cudgel to gain acceptance for it, it typically wont work. You only fuel the idea that you need their acceptance or approval.

I agree that cultural awareness is important and that it's good when students and children are exposed to new ideas...which is why I'm surprised you didn't jump at the chance to do the 'imformative' non-demonstrative version and with teacher approval, discuss your religion culturally and begin to open an in-road to wiccan awareness among your classmates. Why you felt it was more important to demonstrate is beyond me.

I am in the middle of college classes..and the first thing the teachers always seem to emphasize is no religious discussions and no topics such as abortion. It is to keep the peace in class because there are so many different beliefs present. A simple discussion could be turned into a full out war if taken far enough. I understand and abide by these rules because I have to, but there are times it takes all my willpower to hold my tongue.

it really sad that those topic have to be limited because of the chances that things can get out of control, hermione..

i see wat u are talkiing about just as im wiccan and ppl judge me cause they see diffrently and we are freeks to them but of those who under stand Blessed Be

i think you should be true to yourself and the answer that you seek will come to you.

This always happens when people don't want to acknowledge us. It's something most of us have lived to deal with. Others have stood out and rebeled in many different ways. It's up to you to decide what you want to do. If you want to live in the shadows or bask in the flames of glorious freedom. :)

One thing that always annoyed me about my high school was its narrow-mindedness view of religion. Now, I've been agnostic all my life, but I find religions fascinating and I really enjoyed my religious education classes, but it wound me up that they only saw fit to teach Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism. Hello, are these the ONLY valid religions? I think not! Or is 5 years not long enough to touch upon other religions?

I would have appreciated some teaching of other faiths, but schools over here just don't dare touch them.

While I don't claim any religion whatsoever, I don't judge any one person for their beliefs, I actually find other people's beliefs fascinating. I hate the fact that schools will favor Christian, Catholic, and Mormon religions over every other religion out there.

Isn't it our constitutional right to have "Freedom of Religion" anymore? Or should we just say screw it and hand the baton over?

LovesEternalDeath,

I think you should go ahead and do your demonstration on how to cast a spell. If need be, get permission from someone from a higher authority.

I think the issue wasnt the practice in itself but there is such a thing as keeping religion out of school 9witch craft is considered a religion by some folks) and that is problay is what happened here at this time. The school is problay runned by the state and the gov would have made a big deal about this litlle project of yours if the teacher had gone and let you go on with the project.

You do have a valid point. I don't understand why it is considered okay for christians and other religions to be open about their religion, but witches and the like can't because it might "offend" someone. Did they ever take into consideration that displaying overly catholic/christian/whatever views might offend us too?

Tell her your mad about not being able to do the magic spell and have changed your mind your going to do Bowling for Columbine….. did I just cross a line with that humor ? lol

The thing that bugs me is that because other religions are so wide spread we are exposed to them everyday, and yet they refuse to be exposed to us.

You do have a valid point.Now I'll give you a piece of advice I always told my kids when they were in school."If you don't stand for something,you'll fall for anything"Take that anyway you wish,but it always worked for them,Take care ,And I hope it works out for you.........The Nocturnal1

everyone have different views on religon....and some are not to open to other peoples religons....and it is very hurtful.....so you have to hid your own so people don't go crazy about you showing it.....

well that's how I think of it

I agree...you should make a stand...I do that all the tme here at school...i get things done....

Taking a stand has always worked in the past. :)

Are people even reading the discussion or just jumping to an uninformed decision on the matter?

I am reminded of my herbology semester; we were asked to do a study on an herb that wasn't covered during the semester, and as Cannabis Sativa was being decriminalized that year and was already permissable by MS (and other) patients, I did my report on the benifits of marijuana.

It was not admissable, and I did not pass the exam. I refused to back down on it's medicinal uses (I do not advocate recreational use) and I believe it only hurt myself; however I did find out that alternative medicine is as full of backward scared and little people as any other discipline.

Point is that there is a time to fight, and a time to mock them for the rest of your life...

I don't think I would introduce the concept of mockery when discussing religion.

I'm just going to step out on a limb here, but have you considered maybe doing a speech on how the elements are interconnected?

This is part of my belief system, and I incorporated it into a speech that was amazingly well received and earned me a "A".

I have to agree with woman. Try to make it more general.

You have a very valid point; to a point.

While you see things from a religious point of view, the instructor could be looking from the topic itself (closed minded is still closed minded).

It is my opinion that if this is a public institution, you should not be denied this topic for anything which is protected by your 1st amendment rights.

And if it were me ... I would find a new topic for the speech; and then make a lot of noise if any of the other students are permitted to lecture on a topic which you find offensive.

you have to fight for what you believe in, no matter if it tends to offend the religious right wing...333...there are plenty of legal cases in which the us supreme courts of ruled on matters such as this...do a little legal research...333

I experienced a very similar situation not too long ago. In my English class, we were told to write a paper describing a process (basically a how-to paper). I wrote about a Satanic dedication ritual, and my teacher asked me to rewrite it because she didn't think the topic was "appropriate" for an English paper.

I, too, find it incredibly unfair that witches and Satanists are discriminated against for practicing their freedom of religion that was promised to them in the First Ammendment. So no, you are not being bitchy about this, by any means. You have every right to be frustrated.

A good reason why religion should be banned in schools, society is still close minded.

I had the same problem here with my daughter. It was the public school system. We fought it and won..they wanted us to go away and we stood our ground....

Okay I am LDS and I personally think that all religions should be acknowledge as a religion. I may not find it true or I may not agree with certain things but all in all any ways I think that all beleifs have an amount of truth to their teachings. I think that schools should have a class where they take the time to go over the different religions of the world both new and old, perhaps they should even bring in people of that faith to explain it and let others ask questions therefore there is more understanding of other religions not to mention more people are given a chance to find a religion they feel comfortable in and not just following the faith they were raised in.

I believe that all religions should be treated with the same respect. I'm a catholic and even I get disgusted with the fact that we can have prayer in school and christian groups but no halloween costumes. There is a double standard and you were right to be upset about it.

i think religion is a purely personal thing, and it is wrong to shove your own religion down someone else's throat. i know fundies do it all the time, but two wrongs don't make a right. I'm sure you wouldn't want to have to listen to some long speech by a Mormon about how joe smith brought enlightenment to an ignorant world, so why should they listen to your speech on how to cast spells? if you want people to respect your beliefs, you must start by respecting theirs - even if they are wrong.

Some folks seem to have at least caught that there was an offer to let her do an informative lecture on Wicca or spells.

Most wiccan's of spiritual strength would see that as an opportunity to educate people on your belief and your religious culture. I would think that spoiling for a fight when faced with a positive solution would go against your own teachings.

LovesEternalDeath, I happen to agree with you. I find it irritating that being anything OTHER then the conventional type of religion restricts us. I find that people seem to fear what they don't understand. And given the opportunity, they still don't want the chance to understand because of stereotyping.

damn the religions to hell. if anyone has a problem with the things you decide then they should let it go in one ear and out the other.

nods in agreement, but sometimes, what others have a problem with, tend to restrict a person from their freedom............. of choices in all things really....

not upholding any one religion at all- but how would you feel if one of those "crazy ass catholic" studetns decided to try and baptize everybody for THEIR project?

I'm sure of it was some catholic ritual or w/e they have......
that they could do it..
witchiness, though is less mainstream. and I guess that's all that really matters.

hm. *yawn* that's really lame.
did you pose the relig freedom bit to your prof?

If it's a public school I suppose they have the right to say no, but if anyone else does a speech pertaining to any religion I'd throw a major hissy fit. Besides, it's not like you're telling them what to believe in, just giving them a little view of your religion. One that most people don't know about, and may be curious about.

Excellent idea nv.

And its not like Loves wants to do the spell ON the class, just a demonstration... No one else has to be involved, am I right???

"If it's a public school I suppose they have the right to say no"

Umm, excuse me ... that's is 100% backwards. If it is a PUBLIC school; they have no right to say NO.

Private is different, but remember that public schools are funded by the public - and as such - they cannot inhibit the Bill of Rights.

Hehe Someone put the smack down!!!

Well, I did go off a bit but c'mon....oh lookie here is a dead horse....I should beat it!

people fear what they don't understand and when you try to explain it to them, they don't want to hear because christianity has brainwashed society so much that it's passed down generation to generation.

Your teacher probably said no for the reason of fear of what the class would say or do. Your teacher did not seem to mind the subject but feared how the class would react to it. I can understand her point of view in this.

Thank you on your knowlegde it is more clear to me now and thanks also about the comment of the Mormons

LovesEternalDeath

Well you seem to have ecxited quite alot of people with your ideas lol....

However I'm of the opinion that schools should be religion free.......you will face enough conflict when you leave school, let schools teach you how to deal with that first and foremost.

We are who we are, no one can take that or should even try to take that away from us!

Everyone has the right to believe in what they do equally, but for the sake of conflict, there is a time and a place for such things..

Should the teacher have done what they did, who knows, opinions be what they may on the subject..

I for one would have loved to see the presentation, but that is me.

I want to commend you on wanting to do it publicly in the first place.. bravo.

Well the proffesor said no because it could cause conflick between you and the other student because the way they was raised it could be against their reigon and could cause trouble with the school.

All righty, so...I have had some time to think about this, what happened, why, and so forth. Now that I am calm (I wrote this literally 10 minutes after it happened) I have come to some conclusions.

1. I am still upset that I can't do my speech on this topic (of sorts). I do think it's unfair, because when I asked her if someone had wanted to do a speech on how to properly do the rosary, she said "Well, I wouldn't now, but I can't say that I would have said no before."

2. For as much as I would like to do my topic the way I wanted, I am going to do my persuasive speech on the topic of "Are religious freedoms imposed upon" later this semester. I will use this as an example.

3. I am sick of hearing about "normal" religions. I had to listen to the mormon lady talk about her church vacation (which she really didn't need to emphasize the religious part of it as much as she did) and I had to listen to a woman talk about how her picture that she drew of trees represented the father, son, and holy spirit. Come on people, we DON'T need to know this.

4. I don't particularly care anymore what people think of me, or my religion. I am sick to death of hiding behind a veil of fear concerning repercussions due to what I believe. If it's okay for mormons and christians to talk about it, it's okay for me to talk too.

and last but not least:

5. I can find other ways to express what I am trying to get across to people, so I am not going to stomp my foot anymore. I will do what I can, and what I feel is necessary to teach people that I am not evil or a horrible person because I choose not to believe in "God" and "Jesus".

yay good for you. sounds like you are feeling better

Well said. Just be cautious how you go about it. The more you imply the less they can poke holes in your argument. Make sure you have Emprically proven your argument leaving no holes for any fallacies which they will seek to find since you are doing something that basically slaps them all in the face.

But you are correct in your actions to write and speak about the forced imposition of religious right limiting the expressions of others. I would very much like to read what you are to say.

I believe you have a very valid point. Though on the same hand I would not want to listen to a speech from anyone on how to save a sinner's soul or how to hand out pamphlets (if you know what I mean.) I think it more has to do with separating religion from class to make sure no one feels awkward.

Find something to incorporate the fact that you weren't able to do what you wanted, just to piss off your teacher.

Or you could always demonstrate how to make a bomb, maybe? :)

This thread has been automatically closed for length.