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In a court case Gelford v. Frank U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals decided that you don’t need tarot card or scurrying mirrors to practice your wiccan belief.
In England the priest brings in tarot cards but is not allowed the cauldron to make the spells.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/01/npris01.xml

http://www.topix.com/religion/pagan-wiccan/2008/04/religious-freedom-do-you-need-tarot-cards-to-be-wiccan

I feel divination tools are part of the practice of witchcraft for sure …. Mind you wicca has many masks.
I think tarot cards in which our guides or gods talk to us is the same as having a bible.
What is your view on this topic?

I believe that one should not be deprived of the tools necessary to practice their religion, as long as they are not using it to directly harm someone.

As far as I'm concerned, Tarot cards never caused anybody harm, and should be allowed to be used in the practice of Wicca.

Although not all Wiccans believe that Tarot Cards or any other tools are necessary, everyone should be able to make the choice for themselves.

Just as not all Christians feel the need to read the bible, the ones who do shouldn't have it confiscated [sp?].

As I have always said...

people should be allowed to live there lives the way they want...just because someone else doesnt agree and/or believe it doesnt give them the right to choose if that person is allowed to practice it...

it also doesnt give them the right to take away the tools that other person using for there religion...

we should be free to practice whatever we want by whatever means we choose...unless of course this involves hurting others...

The Church as many other religion do alienate people because they are different...I don;t believe in this...religion is supposed to be about unity...although this is not the case...there are more wars cause over religion then anything else...

I believe that we are all the same in one way or another and we should respect the small differences which make a person different to everyone else...

most religion are scared of things that are wiccan...mainly because they have not taken the time to understand them...I dont feel this is right...I have spent my whole learing about different ways of life...so I can understand the ways other people choose to live there lives...

surely the religion of the world should take the time to try and understand the way another person thinks before comdeming it?...

(sorry about the misspellings)

Lav > are you talking about taking the witness stand in a court of law ?

to practice the arts of low magick, or even the religion of such, requires no tools. If they have the sight, staring into a glass of water will have the same results as a scrying mirror.

A shiny piece of metal will have the same results. There are many tools already provided by the prisons and jail systems which they do not realize has the full capacity as the magick outside. One can work the same spells, in different ways. So letting them have luxuries to the symbolism of the tarot set is not an unreasonable denial.

I feel that anyone can choose their own path and use whatever tools they wish whether it be wicca,witchcraft,or other and should not be told what "tools" they can or cannot choose to use.
To each their own...

well I was taught to learn and understand as much as I could of all and any religion even Satanism as well.

I feel everyone is entitled to worship however they see fit as long as they are not breaking any laws of nature or harming others *just because they can*

I respect anyone and their religion which should be a freedom for all to worship whom and however they choose, yet, not to try to make others do the same..

Everyone is different and it would be a dull boring world if we all did the same thing and believed the same way in my opinion.... So let Freedom Ring! as they say....

I have to agree, how can it be freedom of religion if there are restrictions on the tools you use, as long as laws are not broken.

They are only saying that they are not "required" not that a Wiccan outside of the prison walls can't use them. Maybe they felt that some of the articles could be used to harm others, sharp objects etc....

I think religious freedom is a right but you lose your rights when you go to jail and religion is one of those rights they are not going to take away your beliefs but they can limit how you practice them.

That is true they cannot take away your rights as for as your religion goes, yet as you say once you are incarcerated then they limit you to how and what you may use for that religion.

When Missouri passed Wicca / Wiccan as a Religion the people in the Prisons had to keep all their *tools* locked up with the Prison Chaplain / Minister.

Because they felt some of them were too dagerous to have in their cells, Yet they were allowed to practice their religion with whatever tools that were locked up with supervison...

The term freedom of religion is a joke these days, we tell people practice and believe what you will and then we turn on them and call them evil or small minded, so if one tool to practice that religion is allowed all tools should be.

Well as I said in the Misssouri Prison system they allow you any Tools you need or want just you may not keep Certain ones in your cell with you .... due to the fact that you may want to harm someone or yourself.

I agree that people should be allowed to use whatever tools they feel is needed yet, the tool cannot be something to use that break the laws of nature.... LOL

It comes down to what the prison system thinks is more of a priority as I stated before those items could be used to harm others and that is their priority to protect the other inmates.

Also there could be inmates saying they have Wiccan beliefs just to get a hold of some of the tools.

"Freedom of Religion Means All Religions".

Christians have their Crosses
Jewish have their Kippot
and so forth and so on.


It would stand to reason to me, that others are entitled to their tools as well.

I don't feel tools are always needed to practice your beliefs. I know they do help in areas of your religion whatever that may be but it is possible to practice your religion without them if you absolutely have to.

well yes I agree with that if your strong in your belief you can practice it regardless if you have any kind of Tools. I mean when it comes down to it is it not you yourself the spirit that you carry within that makes you strong in whatever religion you are? I know I do not need any tools to believe and practice my belief as I am strong in my Religion.

So, tools are just the extras in my opinion ya know maybe I am wrong yet just how I believe. Just as a Christian is taught that their Bodies are there temple and to respect it and other as so... I mean I could quote alot of different ways that different Religions believe and as far as I know they all believe if you yourself are strong in it then there is no use for tools...

Just an opinion ...

No one should not be deprived of the tools necessary to practice their religion, as long as they are not using it to directly harm someone.

in wicca we are taught that it is not the tools but the one weilding them that matters,as in life anyone can use a saw,but it takes a true believer to make a stratavarious

what i am trying to say is wicca is within,not without.a true wiccan needs no props.the god and godess will provide

I dont believe its a matter of needing a "tool" to practice.

Its rather.. having those artifacts or relics associated with your belief. No denies the catholic preist their robes or scarves. No takes the Kabal away from the Jewish. No one goes into a church and drains the baptismal or takes away the cross necklaces or earrings. Why? because those things are covered under Freedom of Religion.

I guess. it only applies to society's concept of "tolerable" or "normal" religions.

Of course.. after the holocaust.. no one would ever tell the jewish they can't have their hat.

so you could practice in your mind?

I would think the majority of practice would either reside or at least begin in one's mind...As far as religious freedom...Religion seems to define rules moreso than..oh say..."Faith"

I think Faith allows more freedom to begin with.

your mind is your most powerful tool,it all srarts there

Well hell yea it's your tools. Whatever you want to use. It can't be deemed wrong by someone else that isn't even part of it. I mean, you aren't hurting anyone, not sacrificing babies or something. hahaha.....

Freedom of religion means all religions. Christians tend to forget that part.

That`s right, Jamie!
All religions should be equal when we are speaking about law!
If some things could be forbidden for security reasons and not like a religious tool that`s already another story.

If it is part of your religious belief to use these tools as part of your religion or to help you worship or any number of things involving your faith, then i agree that no one should be deprived of these tools.

I'm curious as to when tarot cards became a staple of the wiccan religion? As far as I knew they were general divinatory tools which could be used by anyone of any religion, provided they were of the right mind and inclination.

I belive that we can worship any thing we want and anyway we want as long as it does not being harm to anyone

_One of my roommates at my highschool used tarot cards to do her religion. She practiced Wicca, but through the Faery aspect of it. Although, she was forced to hide her Tarot cards because our highschool was a "Christian Based" school and therefore, Tarot cards were not allowed. However, everynight both her and myself would use those cards to help us to see how our day was going to go tomorrow. And they were right._

_In that setting, it is not right to keep someone from practicing their religion. However, as someone previously stated, once you go to jail, you lose your rights. Tarot cards can be refused, although I do not think it is right. As a Wiccan, I believe that, while I don't use any tools due to lack of money to get them, it helps to have such things. While it may not be needed, it definitely helps. Either way, in the prison system, the warden is king, and what he says goes. If he denies someone the usage of Tarot cards, then it's final._

The constitution guarentees freedom of religion, but doesn't really define religion. We can all look up the word on in a dictionary, but religion typically implies some sort of worship and organized philosophy. Wicca would and should be in this catagory as well as many others.

The article presented here was targetted at prisons. Prisoners don't always have all the same rights as others. You have to ask yourself, are christian prisoners allowed to have crucifixes, candles etc.. that are normally associated with christian services. They probably get them in their worship space, but I doubt they are allowed in their cells.

I think that it is reasonable to limit the items that inmates can have in their cells. Items that are needed for worship should be allowed in worship spaces.

I believe the same as many have already stated here. One must find what works best for them and live their life accordingly. No two people do the same things.. that is what makes us individuals. Personally I do use tarot as a way to show a more enlightened path in which I or someone else may need to travel. I learned long ago that the tarot is a valuable tool for myself.

well if someone can only tell the future through the cards well heck they should be allowed. its the way it was intended

I believe some one should not be deprived of their religious freedom, Forexample , Me being full vampire and satanist The courts are using it against me. But satanism is legal and in th bill of rites and was passed. So todays society it is hard to have Religious Freedom when they do not understand how u practice it.

this thread has lost a major part of the topic, which no one wants to seem to discuss..

Understanding the basis of wicca, seems to be completely out of the question. As no where does it say tools are required. Yes the help, stating most authors, but they are only a suggestive choice until the student becomes able to do things on their own,

No tools are needed to practice wicca, there is no standardize book like there is the bible. There is no symbol other then the adopted pentagram which has been a symbol of man kind since sumeria. For those and your history, that 20,000 years of development. Tarot cards developed in the 1100s ce. Wicca developed the first sects in the 1950s...There is just shy of 18,000 years of development. Where no one was plauged with the "tool-needing" wiccan. Where they did their best with materials on hand. No where in any pagan religion for the last 20,000 years did they requre that there be tools to practice the religous aspect of it.

The spell craft, sorcery, black arts, and assorted other ceremonies. The tarot cards were adapted into witchcraft via victorian magick. Nothing has become exclusively wiccan to date.

I see your point Infernalmage. That would be true for many religions. Many religions have talismans or tools that are used, but are not required to practice the religion, be it a crucifix, candles, incense etc...

I have no personal need for tools to divine the future or practice my religion but I use them to make it easier to be in a proper mindset to be receptive. The Sacred is all around us and we can contact it with will and meditation for prayer, divination, or magickal works. It is just easier with tools.

To that end, i dont feel its wrong to deny tools to those individuals who have shown disregard for the law of the land. How can they seek to understand themselves without first following the laws of the land?

After i spent my time in the county system, i had to go find myself for a few years afterwards to reconnect with the natural currents, and justice of the natural order. At no time was i for lack of creative when it came to the need for things, but then again, i wasn't in for any longer then a quater of the year. There is growing experience to be had from such trials. If they would join in the religious aspect of worship then by all means, they only need but an open heart to do that.

If the would study the arts of magick, then they have to go about it in diverse channels. I met more shamans in jail for being vagrents and drunks then I would really like to say. But we all made it out alright, and with a couple new tricks to boot. Why should the standard be set any less then using the materials on hand. Its what mages do. They should be adaptableto their envrionment.

as said in the beginning many masks, but only one basis of belief "Wiccan"

I think all people should be allowed to practice their own personal religion! As long as no one is being hurt against their will, such as sacrifice. I don't see why people thru the centuries have felt the need to persecute that which they don't understand. example, Mid Wives were burned on the stake as witches by the christians. Why can't we all be able to make our own free choice as to which guides we choose to help us along our spiritual journeys.

My thoughts on inmates having tools or talismans was really an issue of group safety. Specifically that inmates should not have objects that could be used as weapons, or made into weapons.

It also seems like the the discussion as a whole has sided with the thought that one can practic a religion without tools or talismans.

Interesting thoughts ….
I guess the mix is do you have any rights being a prisoner v the belief systems.
Also in the mix is do you need the props to worship your belief.
And to add a spanner if you did read cards or scurry why didn’t you see yourself getting nicked by the law lol

Being innocent and spending some time in prison I can tell you it’s not nice, being cooped up in a cell is far from good and a punishment in it’s self. Not to mention the inmates and the world you have to survive everyday as the under dogs fight for a level in the ranking….. or become someone’s bitch.
So for me I feel no desire to take more of someone’s freedom having had mine taken.
And on that note religion is personal and if one needs props then why not?

Lav, now that is an interesting thought. The cards should have foretold...

But really, I think inmates should be allowed to worship as the see fit. They should be allowed tools or talismans for their worship as long as the tools and talismans themselves could only be used for religious purposes.

I was in prison so this is kinda up my alley. I agree that candles, oils, incense, etc., runes, tarot cards should be allowed. It is part of the religion.

The explanation I got as to why -Tarot cards- specifically were not allowed in -that- institution is because of problems people were causing. Supposedly there were numbers of occasions that people were sliding the -Death- card under doors or throwing them into the cells.

These people could be telling the person in the cell to put a -Death- to a behavior. Or doing a spell. The guards don't know and if the person receiving the card doesn't know what the card means then they become scared little pansy asses and should put on a skirt instead of telling the guards.



Anyway on the flip side and not to down grade the topic ----- if you exercise your visualization properly and you are attuned with yourself and the Gods and Goddeses you don't need any tools. I successfully cast many spells in jail and prison with tools.

The beginners do need them, and believe me prison is filled with neophytes. I agree that the tools should be available on canteen/commissary or for order outside of the institution.

I agree with LadyPatricia. I believe we all should be free to use any tools that we find helpful in practicing your religion or beliefs. No court of law should determine or place limits on how we practice our religion so long as we do not cause harm.

another note....

if they are allowed playing cards, they can do the divinations just as well. Even the spells that tarot suits require. Despite the pretty images there are plenty of spell materials from the psalms, and playing cards, and water, and matches for cigarettes, etc.

I don't see anything wrong with tarot cards. I own a deck myself...I love them.

HellHathWings, I hadn't even thought about that that cards could be used as threats. I was thinking in terms of items that could be turned into weapons.

You mentioned that there were many neophytes, did they turn to this while inmates or had the started before.

Yet another area miscude by society...Tools of divination are not nessessarily craft related. Anyone with an open mind may use which ever divinatory tool where applicable. Does not mean they are witches or whathaveyou. Since when is it up to a jury or judge to decide what an individual uses and where?

I believe that religion is a personal choice. And going hand in hand with that is the right to use what tools you feel necessary to practice your beliefs. No one has the right to tell you what to do with your life, so no one has the right to tell you what to do with your religious beliefs and how you practice it.

I agree with Lav that tarot cards are a tool to which the gods guide you in your life. As they are a tool I use regularly.

Simply 'society' is a group of people whom believe in the same set of rules within the 'system' and from what I see everyone has their own beliefs and idea about that way things are...they do not all follow the same path...that is what I was told 'society' was...

my beliefs maybe differ from those of your own and other peoples...but that my opinon my belief...

the neophytes that are in prison are both interested before prison and become interested after entering prison

as for the playing deck....... when used as a tarot deck in the institution i was in it was just as big an offense as an actual tarot deck....... one must be careful to own two decks of playing cards in order to make a full tarot deck but cant have specific words, symbols or other markings to signify that they are used for the purpose of tarot....

what was that about matches in prison, most prisons don't have smoking anymore

yea, i wasnt exactly in camp snoopy but compared to other areas, but compared to other places it was. We had smoking outside,

But you could do burned petitions, and use the sulfer for banishing rites. Smoking varios things, and using bible papers in fire magick did some good

Religious Freedom should be exactly that freedom from persecution and the like. If you practice a certain religion then you should have the tools available to you to do what you wish with them. If you are being persecuted against then that is a violation of your civil rights.

everybody should be able to practice their own religion with or without tools....freedom ...as long as nobody gets hurt why should anybody care?

It's not the fact that people don't care it's the fact that laws are made and governments are against it. It makes it so that people have to practice in private and against what most say are not society standards. What most don't kow is that the society standards are changing and so aren't the people in that society.

I am a pagan religious services volunteer in a correctional facility in my state. I sponsor and facilitate Wiccan rituals for the local inmates. A new law was passed allowing Wiccan inmates to practice their religion in our state, and observe holidays with the supervision of an outside sponsor. Although your rights are limited in general when you are imprisoned, it was found to be an infringement on the first amendment to disallow inmates the freedom to practice their faith, within security limits.

In the United States, the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." However, there have been a few cases in which many trial and appeals courts have impinged upon this right. Most of these cases have been overturned.

On another note, the use of tools such as scrying mirrors and tarot cards, are really meant to help one enter into a trance state, and access the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind is the root of all intuition. Tools aren't really necessary to reach trance, but are helpful with this. I think some people are weary of metaphysical tools because they misinterpret their true purpose.

people are afriaid of what they dont know or understand so they are against

Exactly and that is why most people show hatred towards one another. The fear of the unknown dictates society standards.

Aot of the religious, You do not need tools or an altar, The tools just make u feel feirer and with out them u feel infereier, I think i missspelled those. Alot of rituals and magic being done u really do not need tools.

I think although you technically don't need the tools, you should be allowed to use them.

It's kind of like if you took the Bible away from a Christian.

I think religious freedom is important, but once you commit a crime. That's it. You are being punished for breaking a law which means you probably just inhibited someone else's freedom of something. You want to keep your ability to use tools, don't break the law.

Inmates still have rights. They certainly have the right to worship as they please, but they don't have the right to keep personal items unless approved.

I disagree completely about the nessecity for tools.

The proof is that there have been many prisioners of war, all of varying religions, who practiced their faith and beliefs all without their religious texts or religous symbols.

If one is true to their faith and beliefs, the tools only augment or improve their practice, but I do not believe they are a nessecity.

I believe that one should not be deprived of the tools necessary to practice their religion. It all goes with the freedom to do their own religion.

I don't know much about tarot cards though my mother reads them. She has read mine and well I guess its all how you perceive them.

i had an argument once...... it was regarding books.... i had 11 religious books though the limit was 3 not counting a Bible or Koran.... okay so 10 with the Satanic Bible then.....

however my argument stood that the Christian Bible has many "books" they have been called books for years and even have many different authors.....

so i said that if they are going to limit how many books a Pagan or Satanist has then they should break down the Bible into it's many "books" and limit the Christians and do the same with the Koran and limit the Muslims, so on and so forth

they didn't want to hear it and I found out that WI law only states freedom of religion to Christians and Muslims

which is also why the institutions in WI do not have to provide any materials for anyone other than Christians and Muslims

Tools, books, etc. do not seem like needed tools to practice. They are helpful, but not a must have. Until all the religions are recognized by the legal system, unfortunately some will always suffer the consequences.

I agree with a few postings here. Freedom of religion should be just that. You should be allowed to practice the way you deem necessary for yourself. If that particular method frightens other people, then they should stay clear of you. But, banning your method doesn't seem necessary. It seems to be a lot about knowledge. Lack of knowledge frightens people. Instead of taking the time to figure out what's actually going on, it's easier for some to criticize and ridicule.

Mind you, this is in respect to those methods and tools used that are NOT harmful to others.

N.Y. state prisons you can have cards --- even the Satanic Bible --- It's the law ..
and you can practice .....

ur right and i mentioned that i have done spells in prison without the tools, it would have been nice to have some as i know that a few of my spells were unsuccessful and the tools may have made them a little easier for me to not feel doubt

To doubt one's own abilities makes it so that the spells don't work to there full potential right?

I think I have to agree with myonlydarkangel about religous freedom, it should be our business how and what we practice and not societys

HellHathWings, I would guess that there are other states that recognize a only a specific group of religions.

No religion should be forced or repressed.

My opinion is that if I had to go to court and swear on the holy bible then all tools should be able to be used. why is it not aloud to have a satanic bible in possession.

ages before the printing press or plastic was invented, people didnt have tarot cards, bibles or some of the items used today. yet, the spiritual people were able to do greater miralces such as heal and raise the dead like Jesus for a easy example. i think its rather ironic that spiritual people now cant even divinate without a piece of paper.

yeah..ppl can believe whatever they want..but sadly some beliefs of others do in fact affect us...and yeah, with the court thing...they use that as a tool, to freak ppl out...they're like..OMFG! god will know everything..so i'm going to swear on the bible! if i lie, than i am fucked.. Basically it an scare some ppl into telling the truth..hahah...but yeah, some things set from religious customs in our laws, are just ridiculous, cos not everyone believes the same things..and their should be laws...but not religious laws...but like i said..ppl can believe whatever the fuck makes them happy..as long as it doesn't affect me, and in some cases it might....and so....i wouldn't mind depating some things with certain religions and ppl....lolz...but someitmes it's like talking to a wall....well....maybe it's what ppl make of it....i gotta go to bed too tired to ramble any further ^^

I believe you need all your magical devices to practice ur craft.

First of all, i'd like to see a decent Separation of Church & State here, inviting the government to "step off" religion and quit trying to decide how things are done. the mirror, the tarot, runes, etc. are all oracles and should be respected as such.

The government has no right to "decide" what a Wiccan can "use" or not use in their pursuit of their Craft.

I agree, a person should be free to practice their craft with any tools they wish and as they wish as long as it does not bring harm to another person. For example I don't agree with santanism, but respect that a person has the right to worship him, and do not scutenaize and look down on them for their beleifs or tools. I think every religion or practice has the right to do as they wish with what thye wish as long as no one is harmed in the process.

I think you should be allowed the freedom to practice whatever you wish to in whatever way. That includes being allowed your tools to work.

In school I had a religious (read: Christian) education teacher who would talk about how awful the persecution of Christians was and then condemn Pagamisn in her next breath. I started showing up with different books every week (Buddist, Wiccan, Satanic etc) but she never even noticed.

it makes me happier to know our religion is far greater than i have yet seen

Any religion, is about faith, a belief, an ideal. Taken to far you have a fundalmentalist, extremist.

Its about how much you believe, and keep an open mind. The tools don't make wicca, but accentuate it. Bones, blood, rain, the way that your foot stepped into mud were the old ways. Now its cards, cauldrons, wind, and spirit calling.

Just like the crucifix, if you idolize a tool of a belief too much, you're cheapening the importance of Faith.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.