A couple months of go I was reading a quantum phsics book. My friends were discussing it and suddenly got on the topic of (of course) Alternate Realities. Debating: How many ther could be?
What would be the diffrences?
Where they even real?
Ect.
So I started thinking about it and thought who knows. Well i'm intrested in hereing your opinions what do you think on this most curious matter?
well, the way i understand it is that there is a different reality for every different choice any person could make. even something as mundane as "soup or salad?" could spawn two universes right there. so in other words, an infinite number of them, all stacked upon each other.
but then, i'm not all that intelligent.
Rosenrot, you have it right each choice causes a new reality to theoretically be spawned. This idea has been around for decades in Science Fiction and Science.
Here is a LINK to an article on parallel universes and some easy theoretical thoughts on the existence. :)
never really gave too much thought to it.. but i do believe ther is at least one... the opposite of the one we are in now... were things are good here they are evil there... and visa versa!
Every person has their own different reality, that's what makes us all different. We look at and perceive things differently. If we all lived in or had one reality, we would all be mindless dull machines with no personality or uniqueness about ourselves. No matter how similar a person is to someone else, they will always have a slight difference in how they think, making them have their own unique reality.
I think alternate ralities may and do exist, not like stephen kings the mist, but maybe at some points and times in the future or the past of our own lifes. even parellel worlds only minut minutes off of ours.
Parallel universe or alternative reality is a self-contained separate reality coexisting with our own. A specific group of parallel universes is called a multiverse, although this term can also be used to describe the possible parallel universes that comprise physical reality. While the terms "parallel universe" and "alternative reality" are generally synonymous and can be used interchangeably in most cases, there is sometimes an additional connotation implied with the term "alternative reality" that implies that the reality is a variant of our own. The term "parallel universe" is more general, without any connotations implying a relationship (or lack thereof) with our own universe. A universe where the very laws of nature are different (for example, it has no relativistic limitations and the speed of light can be exceeded) would in general count as a parallel universe but not an alternative reality.
I believe theres only the reality that we live in the moment , nothing else!
Well , this is science we are talking, and being that we in this lifetime maynot know exactly what the universe is capable of i do believe that yea there are alternate realities. it is not that far fetched at all.
man i can remeber way back when writting a thread on something similar it feels like a decade ago but I know I believed then that they are real and I certainly havn't doubted their possibility of existance simply b/c of that whole bramuta triangle theory and that also ties into people who have a so called sickness where they remeber stuff that didn't really go on maybe it did but in another reality maybe it isn't as far fetched as people think sure a little hard to grasp at first but I mean what if it were true that would certainly explain feeling that people feel when they reach a certain spot and they feel strange maybe it's not ghosts but someone in a different reality standing where you are in their world and you just intercepted some how that would also explain the bramuta triangle disapearnces and the existance of worm wholes and so on :] this is a really fun topic!
a thought just came to mind what if someone from a different reality or a hand few of people rater found a way to our reality and put these ideas of vampires and such creatures in to our minds b/c they really did exist in their reality? wow twisted the era of the dinosours is still occuring in another reality and always has been maybe theres a reality where all your dreams are acuality and all your night mares too that would be a bit of a scarey thought.
maybe thats where all these stranger creatures are coming from... that seem to be just washing up on shores... lol
there are infinite possible realities. For every choice that could be made in one reality it was made therefore creating an alternate reality. Also the butterfly effect also applies. If one detail is changed that detail can alter the path of reality. Ex what if the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs missed earth? What if Rome never stopped exapanding? What if parts of the World weren't swollowed by the sea becuase of the currents?
Each of these examples leads to the idea of many different possible outcomes therefore a new reality
From what I have read on topic here and in life. I understand that there are multiple parallel universes, billions of them, each where we all exist in and make different choices.
Strangely enough the Jet Li movie the One does sum things up pretty well, considering its a movie.
They do exist, and i think there are only 2 this one and the parallel one as this is a balance, the only difference would be is that we would be ourselves, but different, like the classi red dwarf episode.
i do believe in alternate realities,the topic of astral travel and the alternate realms that one can go in comes to mind.
My version of a story/account (no matter how accurate to facts) will perceive to be, or may actually be varied from your, that degree of difference.. is only the first degree of alternate versions. So if you leave spreading your accepted reality, and I leave with mine.. then the split is in two more degrees.
i think there may be other realities out there but because other the change in matter materials and dimenions it may be difficult or even impossible to reach them
Yet they exist around us.. even if only in a metaphoric sense.. every time we think, "What if.. I had.." we could be said to dwell on an alternate plane.
For every dissension there is a reality and a life takes on it's own.
Sorta like a string theory .And sometimes I wonder if it is possible for the other you to cross over to the other universes.Or reality but each reality takes on it's own life its own planet its own universe.Would if the other you come across the reality's be a doppelganger ? Or if you entered the same space as the doppelganger would you then turn in to a big splat of molecules?
Dwelling on such things can limit capacity to comprehend the current reality.. blurring the degrees of interaction.. spooky.. I have a hard enough time keeping up to snuff on this present reality.
all realities run at the same time.we are life.time is in fact elastic.we are being born,dying,and living in many creations and souls all at once..
Some hardly interact with the current reality, yet they seek to, or claim to be aligned with other realities.
In application it is all metaphorical.
When history is altered.. the resulting acceptance of the former belief takes a long time to fade, a parrel reality fading along side the corrected reality. The over laps in those reality, are what detectives become dynamic in detecting.
i would like to find out. i wonder if those realities could explain why people see ghost. if there is another plain interacting with ours
I dont think we will never know about alternate realities because of the fact they only coexist with use, we couldnt touch, feel or walk into them.
could there be any other explination for it? i mean how do we know for sure though that they are out there or they exsist?
That we know because there must be a balance, i might be wrong but there has to be one to be balanced
I have read and seen many documentaries on Alternate Realities. The basics is that when you make a decision all the other choices happen in alternate universes or realities. That there is an alternate universe that is the opposite to all you think, say and do.
It is all rather fascinating really.
I feel compelled to quote Patton Oswalt right now: "I just remember, back in 2003 – and this is my fault, by the way, because I'm such a comic book nerd – but there was this time when, in 2003, I got honest-to-god panic attacks, because I felt like we had all fallen into this really creepy Alternate Earth, like the bad Earth, where Bush won, and the towers fell, and we were going to Iraq, and Paris Hilton was successful, and everything was just wrong, everything was goddamn evil! And I felt like there was an Earth next to ours, where Gore won, and the towers still stood, and we weren't in Iraq, and Paris Hilton had been eaten by wolves, and everything was just wonderful, and it was all good.
And now it's 2006, and I feel like we're in that same parallel universe, but now it's become a wacky universe, where it's kinda fun, where it's like: "On our planet, Arnold Schwarzenegger runs California, torture is legal, and spinach is poison!"
*cue circus Music*
well the Universe is just that *The Universe* alot of wide open space and therefore I would believe that we have many different alternates out there, I mena as was said in one of the posts Balance we need balance, therefore it would only make sense that there are Alternate realities to our own.
Myself I would love to visit (not stay) one of our Alternate realities and see how they do it there LOL maybe things are total oppisite of how we live, imagine we are the bugs to the animals, like planet of the apes... that would be weird yet, interesting at the same time .. but as I said would not want to stay in any other reality other than this one .
By over lapping reality, with such things as McGruffins, and common links.. or uncommon links, including novelty, and sentimental.. two things that are very likely to shift a reality. Those that keep elements from other alternates running in this reality. que the door sound, think of the way a loved on would come home.. creating that sound.. a recollection/mnemonic device shifted reality.. or lingers us back to a memory.. by letting realities get to layered.. we are investing a large storage to confined loops, how far we can loop the alternate reality, well perhaps that comes down to how unattached we are to the current reality, as well as the number of McGruffins in each reality.
People create their own alternate realities to protect themselves from the world around them. Children who are abused by parents create their own world where they can't be hurt.
Its their little peice of heaven, A mental haven maybe?
that just my thoughts.
I only believe in the reality that I am in. If I ever get to another then i will believe in multiples.
The more realities created the more our attentions are spread out.
Separating the created from, the "actual" reality becomes a task around some people. Temp. Shifts in reality can be entertaining.. yet to absorb elements from the created reality to carry into current reality.. if one chooses not to alter their acceptance, their are plenty around who will attempt to encourage them.
Dabbler? I'm just trying to follow -- are you implying that these realities are based on fiction... like role-playing? If so, there is no connection to theories put forth in Quantum Physics. That seems more like alter ego, schizophrenia, reality displacement, etc...
Alternate, and true realities/universes are a very fascinating subject for me. How does one go about proving the theory? How do we go about reaching that alternate reality and what effect would it have on all other existing realities? See? Great subject matter!
The basic principle of every action having an equal and opposite reaction is a segue into the possibility of this being applied to the fabric of life itself. For example, ever hear that everyone has a twin? Have you ever seen someone that looks exactly like someone else you know? I have, and I have met people who have, as well. As a result, I am thoroughly open to the possibility.
Would that imply replication? Physical splitting? How would anyone keep track of such things? Getting "stuck" in between two realities?
I see Alternate reality as Sci-Fi. Those that seek physics perplex me.. duel thought tracks/realities are bond to collide. Is it not actuating an escape from one reality to insist that another one exist? Conviantly void of the harsher reality that is current. There have been many sci-fi books on this subject, every one followed by some "psuedo-science fad to generate "temperal Realities. So if you accept that their is another reality.. is it enough to imagine, or is it proof (physical) you seek, because in the other reality it may not matter.. or materialize..
i believe that time plays into this, einsteins theory of realitivity comes to mind....when we sleep we do in fact travel in time and as others here have posted we make the realities....
Subconsciously i think we do travel to different realms, realities, so i do agree, but when we do dream its all different every night perhaps so does this mean there are many alternate realities?
Concepts of relativity aside, doesn't the term "reality" kind of exclude alternatives?
There is one reality. Whether we properly or fully understand it does nothing to change that. There are no "alternate realities'. There's just one.
The question becomes; how many of us are willing to accept it for what it is, rather than what we want it to be?
How much we invest in "alternate realities". Potentially created by splitting away from our present actual reality. If I say I am a single man, when I meet a possble affair partner, I create an alternate reality, one that is only valid for the potential partner. How much I invest in creating that other reality.. taking my ring off.. avoiding any chance of encountering others that may surface the underlying reality.. does nothing to change the fact that I am really married, and that I am having an affair. Yet I can create the appearance.. in the realm of denial, and deception..
How many there could be?
There could be infinite indeed depending on the changes and choices presented int he continum that could alter a reality through out time.
What would be the diffrences?
Each difference could indeed be deemed by following the path of possibilities from each and every choice into the web of possibilities where each choice renders multiple possibilities on top of chaos theory of event probability.
Where they even real?
In a sence there are indeed very real as they seem to influence one another like the echos of the ripples of waves through time. In some manner I believe each one either effects in balance or discordance of one another to play out all possibilities of all the choices of infinity and the pure potentiality. Hense to bring something into manifestation one may need to just look beyond the vale and brign it accross the thin skin of life from the blood of life.
True i dont think there is only one because it all has to have a balance, so if there is one for this reality then there must be one for that one and so on and so forth thus creating and infinite amount.
Then again if there is balance their must be neutrality, a middle ground where they all converge to create something new in order to maintain and equilibrium of sorts in the energy fields created by pure potentiality. My preponderance is, Is there multiple converged personal alternate realities that over lap with everyone elses to create a conscious hive reality. Or if Each reality itself is an energy web of cascading possibilities with each persons own alternate realities interwoven between the threads to create a complete continuum of cause and effect. Each with their own microcosm and macrocosm meeting at one specific point of convergence to create the astral realms.
Hmmmm...
Well, I think I see the nature of the assertion. I'm afraid I'm still going to have to go with "no sale". We can make choices but we cannot choose to change reality. We can only make choices within the one reality that exists. If I have rice instead of beans, I've not changed reality. I've simple made a choice within reality.
Were I able to choose lunch from a list of things that do not exist within reality, and to actually eat those things, that might well represent an alternate reality.
From a perspective of the more significant, one could look to say... the number of dimensions in reality. Is it three as we once thought? Is it four as Einstein demonstrated? Or is M-theory correct requiring a minimum of 11 dimensions? Perhaps there are actually 42 (and Douglas Adams is a prophet). No matter how many dimensions exist with reality, that is still the one reality and I can choose no other. Reality doesn't care what I think, believe or choose. Reality will continue to be what it is with no other possibilities from which to choose.
It's nice to FINALLY disagree with you, dabbler. :)
If you believe in free will and choice then there are *potentially infinite realities...each choice spawning a new reality. If you believe everything is preordained and discount free will then there is only one reality and we cannot escape it.
*I say potentially because this presumes an unending Universe. If the universe or any particular reality were to collapse in on itself and end then the number would of course be finite and not infinite.
Its not so much we cause a reality but there is many. In one you may be rich, poor, sick, fame ect. They Just are like you are in this one , and can not change to another. almost like another world within a world. Fun huh?
I believe there may well be many different realities apart from ours, but trying to state what the differences would be is surely pure guesswork.
There could be an infinite number of alternate realities - what could restrict their numbers?
Realities are not changed mearly influenced by subtle ripples of the energy fields of things reacting to one another. With a large enough of a ripple from enough people in a short enough amount of time I am thinking realities can indeed in some sort be altered to a degree with a new balance or equilibrium established with in the network then again this is speculation.
I speak once again from a metaphoric slant Beast.. Your Menu of alternate food is well stated. Same camp just aiming at Sci-fi could be's.
My menu of alternate food is a wide extensive range indeed. from many natural sources such as elemental, manic, pranic, viate, emotional, knowledge, and various energy sources. When I travel it can be simple energy imprints, simple manifestations, the land itself. Then again in some places I have gone the food sources of a living or energy providing nature are not present so one turns to darker means. Depends on the places and situation. Most times I am not partial and with permission just enough to get by is more then enough. Though being a natural battery helps return the favor with permission, though I cannot personally use it.
I Do Not Know How Many There Are But Ponder This, What You See In The Mirror Could Be A Opposite Reallity
I'm still not sure how anyone can assert more than a single reality. There just isn't any evidential or logical ground upon which to assert more than one. Whatever is, is reality. That which isn't, is not reality. Making a choice to post or not to post doesn't alter reality. Everything I do and anything I can do fits within that one reality. When I do something impossible, I'll have an alternate reality. Until then; there's just one and we all share it whether we accept it or not.
I doubt there is more than one reality in existance. If there is it would more than likely affect our current one -- almost how the aftershock of an earthquake can effect some place on the opposite side of the earth is powerful enough.
I have done a small amount of research in the past and I am by no means a scientist nor do I want to be. I have to of course rely on the sources and sometimes I research the background of those and those they quote as well.
“Scientists now believe there may really be a parallel universe - in fact, there may be an infinite number of parallel universes, and we just happen to live in one of them. These other universes contain space, time and strange forms of exotic matter. Some of them may even contain you, in a slightly different form. Astonishingly, scientists believe that these parallel universes exist less than one millimetre away from us. In fact, our gravity is just a weak signal leaking out of another universe into ours.” (2)
Many believe that there are 11 dimensions within the multiverse. Described as a bubble that ripples through other bubbles to the eleventh dimension. If two of these dimensions were to touch you would get a “big bang” and voila you have created a universe such as ours. It is believed that our “big bang” may not be the beginning but a result of time and space acting naturally and they existed prior and this exchange could be going on infinitely.
“Creating a wormhole of a size useful for macroscopic spacecraft, keeping it stable, and moving one end of it around would require significant energy, many orders of magnitude more than the Sun can produce in its lifetime. Construction of a wormhole would also require the existence of a substance known as "exotic matter," or "negative matter", which, while not known to be impossible, is also not known to exist in forms useful for wormhole construction”(3)
(2) http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/paralleluni.shtml
(3) http://www.crystalinks.com/timetravel.html
Supposedly we would need to make those to travel in space or inbetween. Maybe there is a scientist in the crowd that has been working in this area.
I believe there are real some and opposite version of our world, like evil is good, and good is evil, without anternate realites the universe would be not be in balance
What application does an alternate reality serve? What do those that subscribe to such ideas invest in whether, or not there are alternate realities.
Well many subscribe to this idea and some are at MIT.
Laura Mersini-Houghton claims that the WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe) cold spot may provide testable empirical evidence for a parallel universe within the multiverse. According to Max Tegmark, the existence of other universes is a direct implication of cosmological observations. Tegmark describes the set of related concepts which share the notion that there are universes beyond the familiar observable one, and goes on to provide a taxonomy of parallel universes organized by levels.
Prof. Max Tegmark
Dept. of Physics, MIT
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.html
Excerpt from his FAQ:
Q: You state in your paper "the key question is not whether parallel universes exist (Level I is the uncontroversial cosmological concordance model), but how many levels there are." Are you suggesting that the existence of level I parallel universes is not a key question? In other words, do you argue that the number of universes is larger than n=1 (the lowest number we can obtain from observation)?
A: Indeed. Although it's far from obvious that n=oo, I think the astronomical evidence is very compelling that n > 1. The curvature of space measured by the cosmic microwave background is so small that if space is a (finite) hypersphere, then it is large enough to contain at least n=1000 other Hubble volumes. If space is finite by connecting back on itself like a donut, the cosmic microwave background measurements again require the donut to be large enough to contain n > 1 Hubble volumes. Of course you can always postulate that space ends abruptly right outside the cosmic horizon with a big warning sign said "MIND THE GAP", but you'll have a hard time providing an elegant mathematical formulation of that theory, let alone convincing other people of its virtues.
space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.pdf
His article on PDF
http://holtz.org/Library/Philosophy/Scientific%20American%20Parallel%20Universes%20-%20Tegmark%202003.htm
Transcript of his Scientific American Article
I think their is some pending "research" that seeks to link to this, in a defacto manner.. "well this is accepted (by credible science) so then this {insert psuedo science agenda} must be accepted as well.
Azuredark,
What you've posted is the result of current M-theory. And M-theory is the present answer to a problem with String-theory. One of the bigger problems with String-theory is that there were five separate versions of String-theory. It was readily recognized that if a theory is correct, it shouldn't have more than one version. Eventually someone found a way to embed all of the aspects of the five versions into just one theory called "M-theory". M-theory doesn't work with less than eleven dimensions.
But the point is that if there are other dimensions beyond the four with which we're familiar, that's still reality and it's only one reality. For a time, we thought we lived in just 3-dimensions. Then Einstein helped to demonstrate that time is actually a fourth dimension. The one reality was always that there were at least four dimensions. Nothing changed about our one reality. We simply became better informed about that reality.
well, maybe not so much a parralel universe, as to life repeating itself every few years
I believe there are atleast 2. I think there's the current reality we live in now and then there's the one when we pass on and are reincarnated and thats the new reality, the new universe we are body and soul spawned into. When we are recycled (cause I don't believe when you die, it's ever the end) the new life we are entered in to is the next reality for us and a whole new exciting world fo us to revel in, in our new bodies. So atleast 2 realms of reality exist and perhaps many smaller ones as well but two main ones I believe in.
MsSanguinarius,
Many people have believed many different things throughout the history of man. In ancient Mesopotamia they believed there was a god over the light of day (Horus) and another over the dark of night (Set, the brother of Horus). Of course this can be seen as metaphorical or literal. But the point is, night and day are the result of Earth getting almost all of it's light from a single star and Earth's rotation. It has nothing to do with Horus and Set battling it out every dusk and every dawn.
Whenever we analyze such ancient (and contemporary) beliefs, we find them to be devoid of credibility and fully lacking in evidence. When verification is achieved, it always complies with the objective and never with the subjective. This has been the case over tens of thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of concepts. There is something to be learned in all of those completely consistent examples.
So my question would be; do you believe in your two (plus) realities based on evidence or is it just something you like to believe? Does it make you feel better... more comfortable and secure to think you'll never die in a manner that results in the complete loss of your consciousness? Or do you have some tangible evidence which supports that belief?
Are you given vision
Are you second sight
Are you older than your life
Eighty days of sorrow
Endless more in sight
Still you child burn bright
And you see me crying again
And you hold out your little hand
Lead me shaking to his room
I thought I'd never see again
Close the door behind you
Turning out the light
Press a flashlight up against the wall
You say this is how we knew him, in a little egg
It opened up and this is daddy now
Now you're stepping back towards me
Til the room is bathing in light
And the answer there before me
There's no ending when we die
Are you sleeping here beside me
Are you shining bright as the sky
Are you breathing now inside me
There's no ending when we die
Lyrics to the song "Begin" from Toad the Wet Sprocket
A song that always moved me and that deals with reincarnation.
Look, reincarnation isn't a new topic. I am simply giving my take on it, it's something many peopel believe in, in one way or another. What you choose to believe, apparently you need scientific, full proof backing to believe in it, I don't. I am a spiritual person, though not religious. It's that spirituality that harnesses my faith in reincarnation. I don't need books and scientific proof behind that. My faith, my heart and spirituality are enough. Also I am not saying we don't fully die. We do, I am saying our bodies and souls are recycled and move on in some way, form or matter.
Let's start by clearing up a very common misconception about science.
There is no such thing as "scientific proof".
Science doesn't operate on proof nor does it produce proof. Science relies upon the objective observation of evidence to arrive at the most likely conclusion -- that conclusion which fits with all of the known evidence, contradicts no evidence, and fits more plausibly within reality than others.
Science doesn't produce "facts". It produces conclusions. Those conclusions which upon advanced and relentless scrutiny, demonstrate that they are consistent with all known pertinent evidence are dubbed "theory". That's what science produces and each theory is used as a kind of foot-hold to advance further discoveries. And sometimes it's necessary to go back and revise a theory.
What is "spiritual"?
I see people using this term all of the time, "spiritual person", "spiritual evidence", "spiritual experience", etc. What does it mean? From the context with which I'm most familiar, it means an emotional intensity. But people seem to be aware that emotions are highly unreliable so they tend to find other words for them. Is that what spiritual means to you, or is it something else?
I have all the same questions about "soul". What's that? Do you have any evidence of the soul or the spiritual?
Note that I asked only for "evidence"; not "proof", not "conclusive evidence", just "evidence. So what evidence supports your belief or do you just believe because it more fully meets with your desire to do so?
A metaphorical reality expands every time a person creates a fable.. story.. lie.. or day dreams.. these people sometimes blur their created reality on others, the reasons and motives very intensely.. the more they are told that they need to deal with their reality.. the more they are likely to retreat into their created reality. A place where things are included or excluded at their whim.
I can have a belief in the after (present ) life. I accept that it is a mystery, I will not be convinced that there is any interaction between the two, metaphysical, and physical. I actually see many things that are phenomenal get low billing under all the psychic/occult/spiritualist movement. I watch as psuedo-science panders to those with occult agendas (seeking to bolster their nothing for money ventures). As quickly as they are exposed, and their "research" losses funding they change their pitch, and fleece more people desperately seeking some physical aspect to place their faith on. This is not limited to the occult, and it is not limited to religion, in the financial world people use real data, to back ponzi scams.. linking actual science findings to occult claims is nothing new.
I am learning that I will not get an answer from occult followers for my question posted earlier. What Application would "evidence" of an alternative reality serve? I would bet that it would follow with.. "Well that is how ghost exist.. or "that is where all the PSI energy is." A class on how to access the alternate realities will be offered shortly after any "evidence was accepted".
My evidence comes from within and it's not anything I can describe to anyone in a cohesive sense it's something I have determines through various readings and such and anyways we are all entitled to our believes, our sprirituality without having to defend or even explain it to anyone else.
well i ahve not yewt thought about it deeply but still i am a firm believer that your present is your reality.
MsSanguinarius,
You're absolutely correct that you have total right to your beliefs. As for defending them, that's part of discussion, is it not? I'm just trying to get a firm grasp on why it is you believe what you believe. Unless I ask, I can't know if you have solid evidence behind your beliefs or if it is purely subjective (which appears to be the case).
I note that you stated before that you were spiritual but not religious. And while I still don't know what you mean by "spiritual", aside from the strong likelihood that it means; "prone to emotionalistic tendencies", the fact that you're not religious perhaps opens a door to present some comparisons that you shouldn't find offensive.
Until recently, most of my online debating took place at a site called "Christian Forums". It had a section which was claimed to serve the purpose of "General Apologetics" where people of any belief could engage Christians in discussion/debate. The truth, unfortunately, was that on any one-to-one discussion field, the Christians quickly walked out bruised, battered and with nothing left to say but that they didn't need logic, didn't need reason, didn't need evidence and only needed their "faith".
Eventually it was pointed out that "faith" as they were utilizing the word, meant nothing more than applying the usual logic, reason and evidence to every concept UNTIL... until that concept began to show them things they didn't want to see regarding their religious beliefs. That's when they suddenly abandon reason, abandon logic and declare a distrust of evidence in order to simply believe what they want to believe. Eventually statistics showed that despite being a site dedicated to promotion of Christianity, the deconversion rate was actually nearly 13-times the conversion rate. In other words, far more Christians were becoming non-Christians than the other way around. In fact, in order to be a moderator at that site, you had to electronically sign an affidavit declaring total believe in the Nicene Creed, the Holy Bible, etc. And yet, during my time there I know of no less than four of the former moderators who deconverted after spending time trying to moderate the General Apologetics forum.
My point here is that people following any religion, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Faithist, Muslim or what have you, tend to offer exactly the same subjective "evidences" proclaimed of every other religion. And each one presents them as an indication of their specific god. Many attempt to sell the idea that their "faith" comes directly from their god, while paying no attention to the fact that nearly every other religion also operates on faith and "internal" subjective "evidence".
I think history offers a very strong lesson about beliefs backed only by subjective interpretation of experiences, "feelings" and supposed faith-issues. In every case where any level of confirmation has been reached, those following logic, reason and evidence have been right, while those following subjectively backed beliefs have been wrong. And the number of cases is incredibly vast.
For instance, look at the number of people who used to worship gods like Dionysus, Osiris, Mithras, Tammuz, Horus, Attis, etc. Each follower had nothing but subjectivity upon which to support their beliefs because none of these gods (as it turns out), ever existed. They were all fooled by their subjective assessments. On a secular level, we find exactly the same thing (if we practice the intellectual integrity to really dig into the available data). Studies on placebo-effect never fail to produce strong beliefs held on subjective merit which the study itself is designed to be able to confirm or discredit.
One recent study was presented as being a comparison of two new treatments for chronic arm pain; a new drug and a new form of acupuncture.
Based on the subjective beliefs of the volunteers for the study, the acupuncture was far more effective at relieving their chronic arm pain than was the medication and the medication produced more side-effects and much worse side-effects. In fact, in three of the subjects the side-effects produced by the drug were so acute that after a reduced dosage failed to offer relief, the subjects elected to discontinue their participation in the study.
So if left to the subjective indications (the "internal evidence"), the conclusion must be that the drug was less effective at reducing chronic arm-pain and more effective at producing substantial and quite unpleasant side-effects.
The objective analysis shows something quite different. The objective side demonstrates that the drug was nothing but cornstarch pressed into a pill and the acupuncture needles had been specially designed to retract rather than puncture the skin. So all of the subjective data was wrong. It was simply people experiencing exactly what they had been told to expect. None of those experiences were any more real than are most subjectively held experiences and beliefs.
And in every study on placebo-effect (subjective vs objective), the results are the same. People will experience what they're told they will likely experience, even when the objective side (the side fully supported by evidence and documentation), clearly demonstrates that none of those subjective assessments held any degree of merit.
What you believe is purely up to you. Your reasons are your own. But I believe that when people gather together to discuss subjective beliefs, it should be with the knowledge that subjective beliefs have a tremendously scarred history of being totally unsupportable, and completely wrong when faced with opposing objective evidence.
Most beliefs end up being one of three things. Religions, Not enough information, or lack without proof. Who decides what is enough proof? I agree on that science isn't always the solution to everything, but there are those that take their hypothesis and indeed prove it within the bounds of what we know scientifically.
Beliefs are just that, they are not proofs nor truths. There is generally anecdotal evidence for all of that but then again belief comes into play. Do you believe the reems of information from people. Instead most will rationalize it off.
Spiritual:
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
One believes in the unknown but they don't attach it to a concrete philosophy. All of these things are subjective and can only be debated. Skepticism cannot prove something does not exist as belief cannot. Man believes in many things and are influenced by them. Some are religious in nature and totally illogical but they are written about and people who would normally be a skeptic believe these things. They affect every walk of life. The scientific community thinks the idea of alternate realities warrants looking deeper into it.
They teach Darwinism in school as fact and it was only a theory which has numerous anamolies. Many things we think are theories and most of them do not get proved completely except those things we deal with on a day to day basis. Mostly inventions and if they work we believe in the concepts even if we don't understand them. Most think of alternate realities bordering on the paranormal/metaphysical side but what if it isn't? What if it is fact that we have been unable to prove as yet? Most of us won't know because the likelihood of them solving this puzzle will probably be hundreds of years in the future when they will be wondering what the use of a microwave oven was.
Can anyone help me?
~What is the difference between a different reality and a different dimension?
I cannot think how it would be described in words..
The many-worlds interpretation or MWI (also known as relative state formulation, theory of the universal wavefunction, parallel universes, many-universes interpretation or many worlds), is an interpretation of quantum mechanics. Many-worlds denies the objective reality of wavefunction collapse, instead explaining the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse with the mechanism of quantum decoherence. Many-worlds claims to resolve all the "paradoxes" of quantum theory since every possible outcome to every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world". In layman's terms, this means that there is a very large, perhaps infinite, number of universes and that everything that could possibly happen in our universe (but doesn't) does happen in some other universes.
Some Cosmologists argue that the universe is in a false vacuum state. There is also the claim that the universe should have already experienced quantum tunnelling to a true vacuum state. This has not happened. That may increase the probability that many-worlds is true. The many-worlds interpretation should not be confused with the many-minds interpretation which postulates that it is only the observers' minds that split instead of the whole world.
http://frombob.to/many.html
Alternate reality is usually a synonym for a Parallel universe.
Parallel universe or alternative reality is a self-contained separate reality coexisting with our own. A specific group of parallel universes is called a multiverse, although this term can also be used to describe the possible parallel universes that comprise physical reality. While the terms "parallel universe" and "alternative reality" are generally synonymous and can be used interchangeably in most cases, there is sometimes an additional connotation implied with the term "alternative reality" that implies that the reality is a variant of our own. The term "parallel universe" is more general, without any connotations implying a relationship (or lack thereof) with our own universe. A universe where the very laws of nature are different (for example, it has no relativistic limitations and the speed of light can be exceeded) would in general count as a parallel universe but not an alternative reality. This takes you back to Max Tegmark mentioned previously, who is actively doing research.
Azuredark,
Most beliefs end up being one of three things. Religions, Not enough information, or lack without proof. Who decides what is enough proof?
That's an excellent point and one of several reasons I avoid the use of the term "proof". "Proof" to whom? Certainly there is more than enough evidence that the Earth is an oblate spheroid to convince most people, so do we have proof? Not to a member of the Flat-Earth society.
I agree on that science isn't always the solution to everything, but there are those that take their hypothesis and indeed prove it within the bounds of what we know scientifically.
That seems to be a very good way to put it. The only problem I have with that isn't really with your statement but with a false concept many people seem to have concerning science. Science -- in the most general observation of the process -- is simply the study of reality. And because subjectivity has shown itself to be wholly unreliable, science excludes the subjective and focuses only on the objective. And as they say, "the proof is in the pudding". In a mere 400-500 years science has been around, it has raised us out of the mud and given us every technology we enjoy today. It has provided us with the understanding we currently hold of the universe. In short, it has shown itself to be without competition; the best means ever developed for extracting truth about reality, from reality. With that understanding, I agree with your statement.
Compare that to beliefs of the subjective which following tens of thousands of years have produced a sum total somewhere near zero. We keep hearing, "we just can't prove it yet".
Beliefs are just that, they are not proofs nor truths. There is generally anecdotal evidence for all of that but then again belief comes into play. Do you believe the reems of information from people. Instead most will rationalize it off.
To me it seems there are beliefs supported by objective evidence and beliefs devoid of objective evidence. If we look to the history of beliefs, we find that a fairly firm line can be draw between the two. One side of that line is labeled "truths" and the other side is most properly labeled "superstitions" or just plain "false". There are very few exceptions to this.
Spiritual:
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
I appreciate the attempt but what I see (and I assume this is probably taken from some officially recognized source), is the attempt to define "spiritual" through use of the word "spirit" which is simply the body of the word we're attempting to define so that's of little help.
Next comes what it's not; "tangible or material". Okay, we now know two things it's not. We still don't know what it is.
Then we connect it with the other word I asked to be explained "soul". If I don't know what a soul is, then I don't know what a spirit is and if I don't know what a spirit is then I can't grasp the concept of spiritual, other than how I defined it earlier -- an intensely emotional feeling.
Then it's related to God and/or the divine, to church, religion or that which is sacred. And none of those things appear to be supported via any kind of objective means. So is it just superstition?
For those who think I'm being obtuse, that's not it at all. Sometimes the best way to get someone else to recognize their arguments or assertions for what they are is to ask them to explain them to you. So that's all I'm doing. Obviously, the assertion is that something called "spiritual" exists as a reality. If someone can hold that belief, I would trust they can tell me what it is.
One believes in the unknown but they don't attach it to a concrete philosophy. All of these things are subjective and can only be debated. Skepticism cannot prove something does not exist as belief cannot. Man believes in many things and are influenced by them. Some are religious in nature and totally illogical but they are written about and people who would normally be a skeptic believe these things. They affect every walk of life. The scientific community thinks the idea of alternate realities warrants looking deeper into it.
The scientific community holds that there exists cause to explore the possibility of "alternate realities", (though I'm fairly uncomfortable with that particular term), because they find evidence to suggest the possibility that such things may exist. They have evidence -- objective, demonstrable, credible -- evidence. They don't simply decide based on a feeling or something "spiritual" or look to their "soul" for answers or ideas. They look to the evidence. And they do this because evidence is what science operates upon, not proofs or assertions or feelings or anything subjective. And the reason science operates on the objective is because it has a fantastic track-record. Subjectivity, on the other hand, is the basis for the vast majority of failed beliefs throughout man's history.
They teach Darwinism in school as fact and it was only a theory which has numerous anamolies.
"Darwinism"?
I think you're talking about the Theory of Evolution as it stands today which is science, not hero-worship as the term "Darwinism" tends to suggest. It's also not the Theory of Evolution as drafted by Charles Darwin.
Many people like to point to evolution and proclaim "It's ONLY a theory", as though the word "theory" had any kind of credible doubt behind it.
This tends to stem from the idea many people hold that a "theory" is just an idea that remains to be tested or supported. Nothing could be further from the truth. A "theory" is the absolute pinnacle of scientific credibility. Nothing tops "theory" in the world of science. And of the theories of science, the Theory of Evolution is among the strongest and most substantially evidenced. There are literally dozens and dozens of observed cases of speciation (the gradual change from one species to another), along with the fossil record, ERVs and the many industries (including medicine), which utilize the foundations of evolution to predict the outcome of their products and do so with complete accuracy utilizing the proposed mechanisms of evolution. Were evolution untrue, a sizeable portion of valid medical science would fall flat on its face.
Many things we think are theories and most of them do not get proved completely except those things we deal with on a day to day basis.
There is a common saying among those who understand science; "Proofs are for maths and alcohol". Science doesn't function on proofs nor does it produce proofs. It never has. What it produces are demonstrable truths in the form of conclusions which are thoroughly challenged, tested, doubted, filtered, subjected to intense scrutiny and after all of the challenges, emerge having demonstrated a complete compliance with ALL of the known pertinent evidence. The word for such a successful concept is "theory".
Mostly inventions and if they work we believe in the concepts even if we don't understand them. Most think of alternate realities bordering on the paranormal/metaphysical side but what if it isn't? What if it is fact that we have been unable to prove as yet? Most of us won't know because the likelihood of them solving this puzzle will probably be hundreds of years in the future when they will be wondering what the use of a microwave oven was.
People rarely go about producing inventions based on nothing more than subjective ideas. I don't know that it would even be possible to do so. Unless you understand how something works or should work, how do you build it?
Inventions are based on the findings of science. Science is not based on the success of inventions. You need the science first which is then applied to the design and mechanics of the invention.
I think there may be a bit of a void here between what science is and what some here seem to think science is. I'll try to help anyone who wants to understand the difference.
Pressing a set after life on others has always unsettled me. I did the witnessing with church groups, yet I easily backed down, part of the reason for this is that I hold sacred the accepted after life of others. Their acceptance is sacred to them, as it is to me. I accept that as a greater mystery then I can imagine..
When others declare that I am lacking a set after life (because it theirs is), then I will request they state clearly what it is they would have me accept. I will notice their confidence in their alternate path, I will question any physical dependent proclaimations from them , note how any evidence they present has been challenged and how it fail the challenge..Why? Because that is their intent as well. The discussion ended the moment they placed their path as an All Path.
When one religion says that we have faith that this or that exist, and then refers to fabricated evidence to "prove" that their exist evidence.. I will challenge that, just as I would expect them to challenge me should I press evidence.
I understand the concept of walking lightly around the sacred beliefs of others, simply because they're sacred. It's a long-held socially accepted idea. But I think the idea lacks merit. Just because someone holds a belief to be sacred, it shouldn't be demonstrated that it holds no merit? Says who? Why? When did we make that rule?
It's one of those things that has enjoyed a long unchallenged life in social circles but I think that life is finally coming to an end. What is it about certain unevidenced beliefs that place them outside of skeptical discussion? If someone tells me their car gets 280 miles per gallon and can fly, I'm going to be skeptical. And even if they tell me their "faith" in their car is a sacred belief, they're going to need to present some kind of credible evidence or I'm going to label their claims as what they are.
I know it's considered more polite and socially acceptable to just smile and try to find something sufficiently neutral to say. I don't walk up people and openly challenge their beliefs unless they first make assertions. But once people make assertions, judgments and attempt to press their beliefs into action, enough becomes enough and it's time those beliefs are challenged openly and unashamedly. Had this been done generations ago, perhaps we could buy alcohol the same time Sunday morning as every other morning. Perhaps stem-cell research would be years ahead of where it is today, perhaps the Salem Witch trials would never have taken place and it wouldn't have ever been illegal to teach evolution in schools.
Superstitions promote ignorance; sometimes through legislation. They should always be challenged without hesitation or suggestions of social impropriety. Truths stand up well to challenges, falsehoods don't. If you have to protect your "truth" from open and hearty skeptical discussion, it's likely not a real truth, but a falsehood.
In my personal feelings on this, I believe that there is alternate realities. I feel that there is one that matches what we know now on this plain.
Just because there is no documented proof on it does not mean that they do not exist.
I'm not sure who asked for documented proof. What's "proof" anyway? Outside of math and alcohol proof is an unattainable standard because the next question is; who has to be convinced before it's "proof"?
I tend to look for a far more reasonable standard -- evidence. But in this case, perhaps all we need is a little logic. So here goes; what exists, is reality -- the one and only reality that exists. Anything which doesn't exist isn't real. So from where does one find support for the idea of more than one reality? Things are either real or they're not and that has no reliance at all upon humans understanding what is or isn't real.
It seems terribly clear to me; there is only one reality because there can be only one reality. There are no alternatives but what is real, and what isn't.
Parallel universises are interesting. Some scientists believe that it's like a load of bread, each slice being a parallel universe.
Well, there's always the general debate on whether or not our universe was created by God, or the by the Big Bang theory. Considering no one can really prove either of these, no one can really prove that alternate realities/universes do or do not exist. If they do, however, the possibilities, are practically endless...
I find even in psuedo-scientific fields their is debate over interpitation of "finding". By referring to those who do not accept your "possiblities" (usually based on hoax, misperception, or hack "experiments"). Apparently those so called possibitities are used in symathy to the claim that is made.
The application is what I ask.. I notice this is avoided, in all para-normal areas, when asked "What is the application of alternate universes?" I get no attempt at answers. I could easily imagine what applications could come from such things being found to exist(though they do not, outside of metaphor).
all i know is that they have found a 13th diemenchen so i would say its a posabilty
Multi-verses have always intrigued me. Is Quantum and the theories not an actual science these days? Stephen Hawkens himself has proposed there my indeed be Multi-verses.
"Their is more to Heaven and Earth than meets your philosophy Horatio".
Mans mind is only limited by his imagination. We have yet to bend time and if that would be possible then perhaps so is a Multi-verse.
Mikhail
I believe there are many alterative universes as each one is created as each of makes a decision as most recently demonstrated in the Doctor Episode ‘Turn left’, yes, it’s a t.v programme, but that episode demonstrates the possibilities exactly.
Of course, all of this is still theory but hopefully it’s one of the things we’ll be able to have a look at with the continuing ‘big bang’ experiment as well as the existence of parallel universes.
Exist is one thing, exist in a way we can interact with those alternative realities, I would say only in sci-fi, could we interact with other realities. I find the books that do that to be quite inventive.
I thing alternate realities would be cool and may be a possiblity...I know I for one would love to see what would happen if i made this choice or that where i would end up being...
But I kind of like the mystery in life of is there another me on some other plane of existance
I'm not certain that attempting to equate "alternate universes" with "alternate reality" is accurate.
A 13th dimension? Are you certain?
"it is said that as little as the flutter of a butterflies wing is enough to alter the destiny of the entire universe."
I'm not sure where I heard that. but I think it's true and that it fits here. our destiny isn't planned, we plan our destiny. our future is established by the choices we make now. But the question to me is what is reality? I don't know but you have me thinking now. lol.
One theory is that if you have enough gravity pull from a singularity, you can cross over to other alternate universes. I wish I was more intelligent so I could speak to the specifics, but I can't, lol.
I dont know how many times ive said this but what you can't see could still be there...think aobut it...you don't see alot of things, but they are still there and still happen...don't they?
SO yes I believe they are real...
Oh, I would never suggest that sight should be the sole point of verification. We can't see the wind, but we know it is there. But here is the key; we can observe the effects of the wind. We can track it, calculate it, measure it, predict it and even utilize it.
When there is no objective evidence to suggest the existence of any proposed entity, realm, etc., then I see little call to subscribe to belief.
My point when it comes to the topic of alternate realities is simply that just because we don't understand a reality, doesn't make it an alternate reality. There was a time when men accepted the Earth to be flat and the sun to orbit the Earth. Eventually, we found those beliefs to be correct. So are we now living in an alternate reality, or do we simply have a better understanding of the only reality that exists?
A parallel universe, to my way of thinking, isn't an alternate reality. It's simply part of the one and only reality that exists, which if it exists, has not yet been verified.
There is one reality. Only one.
Nourist wrote:One theory is that if you have enough gravity pull from a singularity, you can cross over to other alternate universes. I wish I was more intelligent so I could speak to the specifics, but I can't, lol.
I read all sorts of Sci-fi that creatively imagines such thins, you are a creative person Nourist. "smarts" have nothing to do with being creative, and imaginative.. that all comes in the application phase, real verses imagined, we can never go wrong with imagining, And we can fill shelves with entertaining fiction as well.
I think it would depend on what you mean by alternative realities or parallel realities & do you mean physically alternative or spiritual?
I believe there are both physically alternative realities as for every decision you make creates a possible ‘alterative’ dimension where you made a different choice regarding anything, as someone has mentioned, something as simply as, soup or salad?
As for spiritual realities, ask any priest, guru, shaman etc and they would certainly say there is more to this earth than just flesh and bone as I also believe, as without a spiritual realm there would be no point of having a soul or spirit or what ever you wish to name it.
The increasing snowball effect, of increasing degrees of belief, from, accepting, or adopting a belief, the base belief here is alternative realities, so once that is "set" it is on to phase two, accepting or extending that belief to not just existing, but that the Guru, etc. or even you (with the training from 12 seminars) can interact with.. what next, I mean every established belief has a fringe separation.
alternate realities is a fascinating thought. I would love to visit those realities while awake. The different places i visit in my sleep are amazing. but if this is the case what about when i have the exact same dream sometimes three and four different times and nothing changes. does that mean that im going to the same place and if so does it mean something.
I think it'd be interesting to go to a differetn reality,
I had a few friends who were really big on the subject and figuring out a way to enter them.
I believe that there are alternate realities and that they are the same as ours. but that each is different based on a different choice that could be made for every instance for every person. So there could be an infinite amount of alternates.