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Are good and evil even required for morality?
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Mordes
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01:28:47 Jan 07 2005
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let me know what yah think....




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SyDaFect
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01:52:30 Jan 07 2005
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Hard Question...



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Mordes
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01:58:23 Jan 07 2005
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I'm glad people are at least giving it some thought tho...



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Daermon
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02:05:54 Jan 07 2005
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i don't think they are
as right and wrong are not always in agreement with good and evil
and I feel morality has more to do with right or wrong
and morals are more of a personal understanding...each persons moral compass as it were does not necessarily point the same direction.....
but i don't feel good and evil really are needed for morality



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Cancer
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02:06:48 Jan 07 2005
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There are many different definitions for righteous morality... There are religious, nationalistic, and ethnic among others. Which definition you choose will rule your answer.

If you are defining morality as virtuous conduct, I don't see how you can separate it.



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Mordes
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02:44:16 Jan 07 2005
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definiton of morality isn't required to awnser the question neither is knowing right and wrong....

the question is how do right and wrong come into being and how do evil and good come into being and how does morality come into being....

it doesn't require modern or even historical affectations to solve...



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^DarkMan
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02:54:06 Jan 07 2005
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there are no answers.... only the search :P



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Cancer
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03:19:46 Jan 07 2005
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Of course a definition for morality is required. If we are speaking Christian morality, it is a sin (evil) to have pre-marital sex.

If we are speaking of American morality, the majority does not consider pre-marital sex to be wrong.

Morality varies. The content of what morality encompasses varies.



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HellChildDami
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03:23:17 Jan 07 2005
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Wouldn't you then be looking at societies definition or views of what is right and wrong? With so many different cultures, who's to say what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. What might be right/good or moral to one culture, may not be for another. Is this a question that can truly be answered? I'd say it's a matter of ones opinion...



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MyIntelligenceIsAbsent
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04:08:42 Jan 07 2005
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Cancer has a point.. there are different definitions of morality.... depending on religion.. ecosystem.. the subculture u belong to etc.. it all depends on wat u think is morally right or wrong..



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Mordes
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04:15:05 Jan 07 2005
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I think your all missing the point.....

is there a way in your mind that you can construct a moral system... and do you require good and evil to begin with or is good and evil created from the system you generate?



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MyIntelligenceIsAbsent
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04:44:34 Jan 07 2005
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well of course u can construct a moral system in your mind.. and yes your moral system would need good or evil to start with.. but your moral's would vary to wat u define as evil and good :)



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Mordes
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04:53:34 Jan 07 2005
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or is it the other way around?

you define what is right and wrong and then that defines what is good and evil?



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AnTaNia999
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06:09:26 Jan 07 2005
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hmmmm very thought provoking.... but perhaps there is no answer????

which came first the chicken or the egg?????????



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MyIntelligenceIsAbsent
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07:02:12 Jan 07 2005
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hahaha... i thought they proved the egg came first.. a creation like the "big bang theory" :Ptwas i was taught in school...



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Mordes
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07:05:56 Jan 07 2005
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heh the egg is first if your an evolutionist

the chicken is first if your a creationist

I leave it up to you what you associate most strongly with



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MyIntelligenceIsAbsent
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07:13:18 Jan 07 2005
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good call Mordes good call.. you have proved worthy with these replies in threads.... uve earnt my respect :)



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Daermon
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09:01:16 Jan 07 2005
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yer both wrong...the rooster came first...
hehehe
and I know the answer he wants.....heheheh so i'll stay silent



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Moreish
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11:10:10 Jan 07 2005
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*applauds Mordes for a reason he knows why*

shhhhhhhhh >:)



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Cancer
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17:38:19 Jan 07 2005
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There is an unprovable truth here. Every soul has within it the spark of good. A beacon of light. No matter how evil that soul may be.

It is around this spark upon which all morality is based.

I find your question a variation upon:

Are humans inherently evil or inherently good?


You cannot scientifically prove it either way, although anyone who is enlightened knows the answer.



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salah
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19:59:55 Jan 07 2005
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I think good is required is required for morality, its like a black or a white soul.



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Khayman
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20:11:12 Jan 07 2005
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I think morality is the one word name for good and evil.

In the grand scheme of things... cosmically (to quote a certain someone) no one had the right to an oppinion. So how can one correctly define good and evil, as the definition itself is an oppinion?
Things are the way they are. Deal with it....

Its a matter of perception, kids.
Your 'morals', whatever they may be... Are the very DEFINITION of good and evil.
Do I think it's ok to slaughter a cow? Yes. I'm at the top of the food chain for a reason, and it ain't to suck on a piece of lettuce for an hour and a half at dinner...
Do that in India though,... stoned to death in town square.

Perception, kids.... perception....



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Mordes
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09:13:37 Jan 08 2005
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ok I guess I need to be more clear....

is there a way for a moral system to come into being without there being a system of good and evil first?

or are we capable of generating rules of conduct and behavior that have nothing to do with right and wrong, good and evil and only have to deal with self interest?

and if we are capable of it then what does that make good and evil, right and wrong?

if the rules come first does that make good and evil only the breaking of rules?



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AnTaNia999
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10:05:36 Jan 08 2005
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"The quality of being moral conforming to standards and principles. A religious code of conduct". A moral right; "A claim people would think is justified but not necessarily supported by law". F.S. Harraps Law Dictionary.....

The concept of natural law has taken several forms. The idea began with the ancient Greeks' conception of a universe governed in every particular by an eternal, immutable law and in their distinction between what is just by nature and just by convention. Stoicism provided the most complete classical formulation of natural law. The Stoics argued that the universe is governed by reason, or rational principle; they further argued that all humans have reason within them and can therefore know and obey its law. Because human beings have the faculty of choice (a free will), they will not necessarily obey the law; if they act in accordance with reason, however, they will be "following nature."

John Locke argued that human beings in the state of nature are free and equal, yet insecure in their freedom. When they enter society they surrender only such rights as are necessary for their security and for the common good. Each individual retains fundamental prerogatives drawn from natural law relating to the integrity of person and property (natural rights). This natural rights theory provide a philosophical basis for both the American and French revolutions.

In its simplest definition, natural law is that "unwritten law" that is more or less the same for everyone everywhere. To be more exact, natural law is the concept of a body of moral principles that is common to all humankind and, as generally posited, is recognizable by human reason alone. Natural law is therefore distinguished from -- and provides a standard for -- positive law, the formal legal enactments of a particular society.

Since law must always be some dictate of reason, natural law also will be some dictate of reason. In fact, it is law discovered by human reason. Our normal and natural grasp of the natural law is effected by reason, that is, by the thinking mind, and in this service reason is sometimes called "conscience."

We, in all our human acts, inevitably see them in their relation to the natural law, and we mentally pronounce upon their agreement or disagreement with the natural law. Such a pronouncement may be called a "judgment of conscience." The "norm" of morality is the natural law as applied by conscience. Lastly, we can say that the natural law is the disposition of things as known by our human reason and to which we must conform ourselves if we are to realize our proper end or "good" as human beings.

It is interesting to note that virtually everyone seems to have some knowledge of natural law even before such knowledge is codified and formalized. Even young children make an appeal to "fair play," demand that things be "fair and square," and older children and adults often apply the "golden rule." When doing so, they are spontaneously invoking the natural law.

Natural law theory is of the "practical order" of things and the first principle of the practical order is a principle that directs human acts in all their operations, and it will be concerned with the "good," since we act in terms of what a least seems good to us. Therefore, the primary principle of the practical order -- the first precept of natural law -- is a formulation based upon the notion of the good and is stated in the following way: The "good" (according to reason) must be done, and evil (what is contrary to reason) must be avoided. The simplest statement of this precept is, of course, "Do good and avoid evil."



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Cancer
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15:18:51 Jan 09 2005
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Okay Mordes, now I think you're talking about the boy that was raised by wolves. A boy with no human moral basis. His morality would be based upon wolf morality... Nature morality.

Yes, in this construct it is possible to have morality without good and evil. However, this is not human morality. It is a comparison of apples and oranges, as a wolf is a lesser life form than a human.

The wolf-boy would be ignorant. Once his ignorance is gone, there is no going back.



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Moonshadow
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19:38:02 May 06 2005
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I think that good and evil are necessary in our lives, cuz that way our soul will learn, and will reach perfection.

We must be opene minded and learn as muuch as we can, good things and bad things... ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blessed Be.



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Ravensbloodzero
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19:48:31 May 06 2005
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Morality is an odd thing. I think it's all about what each individual classes as moral. You might think that murder is immoral and evil and therefore wrong but are you therefore against the death sentence for someone who raped and murdered more than twenty young girls? Not everyone is but they will still claim that murder is wrong? I think morality depends on a situation and is being constantly redefined by changing opinion (but that's just me.)

(And I think the fish came first, not the chicken or the egg.)



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Lathander
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20:02:20 May 06 2005
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depands on how you look at life



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FraterRath
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22:51:32 May 06 2005
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Generally there is no such thing as good and evil. if you look at a newborn child, they have no comprehension of "right of wrong". You generally dont understand the difference until a "parent/religion/ideology/ect" is pushed on you and someone tells you "this is right, and that is wrong." and when it comes down to it, the only reason we dont go on killing sprees, or rape and steal from people, is the fact that we dont want them to do it to us. "right and wrong" is all what you make of it.....and probably what someone else "helped" you think about it.



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NightBlossom
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22:52:51 May 06 2005
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I'll unfortunately have to agree with FraterRath on that one



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Daermon
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07:31:17 May 07 2005
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k since thi one has been dug out of the bosom of forums time forgot i'll add again...
self interest...
if you do something others don't like you will be punished summarily....this was true back to the dawn of man...before ideas such as good and evil were really thought out.....so self interest would be the origins of morality as it was in your better self interest not to do that which was not wanted by the tribe or collective....
the line of thought is very early and very primitive....but I think that may be what Mordes was getting at....



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SoGothicItHurts
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07:37:21 May 07 2005
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It's no fun when a mother drowns her baby, or a husband beats down to death his wife..

Humans are born being able to do horrible things but their real nature is inside their soul, the soul that father has given us all, that soul belongs to him not to us and he put good, decency, and hope inside each and one of us..

My point is this: why do we feel bad when we do something that hurts another being human or animal? even as a small boy.. killing is something natural but for predators not humans we humans are "leaf eaters" by nature, every doctor or cientist knows that for sure, because of the way our bodys are.

We are able to feel bad, and that's proof enough for me to be sure that we are good inside even if we do bad things..

but don't worry because as long as we regret our sins, father forgives anything, his love for us is infinite.. beautiful.



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deathnitegrl
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19:22:21 May 07 2005
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Very interesting thread I asked myself this quest a lot to myself too.
My friend told me that it all depends on what you believe.I don't agree very much.For example if a child is abused everyone that is sane should know it'not
good.
My opinion is that the world is evil so to survive to this world a person has to be evil.However by being good if honest a person would feel better and help a lot of people and still would be cool.
So I am good with those who deserve it and love me but evil with those who hurt and hate me.



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