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In many legends it says to help fight evil you are to use a holy object or say holy words.

Now the question is if you do not believe in the holy object, can it really work to help you? How would you know to use it? Or could there be worse problems if you do not believe in it but try to use the object?

Let's look at this logically, assuming that holy relics have any sort of effect in the first place. The understanding is that holy relics contain the power of God/gods, and that's why they are effective against evil. If they have their own power, then it shouldn't matter who's using them, or how they are used, because the power doesn't rely on the user. If the power DID rely on the user, then what's the significance of a holy relic? If all of the power is within or dependent on the user's knowledge of magick or what have you, then the object (or words) shouldn't matter at all.

There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. People either feel that the right words or combination of them can have some sort of power, or that the power is within the caster and the words are merely a method of focus. I find both concepts laughable. The same goes with holy objects. Either they have power or they don't. If they have power, then it shouldn't matter who uses them. If they don't have power, then why use them at all?

This is hypothetical, of course.

I'd like to see a crucifix work on a Jewish vampire ... lol

Since you state that these are legends, then the whole argument is hypothetical...
Do we believe in a flu remedy when we use it?
I think the entire aspect is based on faith.

It would require a certain amount of faith in order to "Use" the object. Its the same with things such as a "Magic" you have to beleive in it on order for it to "work"
But, having faith in something that magically "works" could be seen more as a Placebo effect. For example, there has been medical tests done on the subject, telling a certain person that they have a cure for something such as cancer and only injecting them with water but finding that infact, the cancer had start to retreat anyhow.
I believe thats exactly what these "Holy" objects are. There just a physical metapor.

The suggestion that one's personal belief (or lack thereof), can alter the effectiveness of an external object tends to be offered mostly as a response to the failure of such objects to demonstrate the affect/power they're claimed to have.

One doesn't need to believe that a gun can kill or injure for the injury/death to occur. One doesn't need to believe that their vehicle is out of gas before the engine stalls. One doesn't need to believe that the batteries in their flashlight are producing a charge differential across the filament for the flashlight to work. That's because these are all valid tests of claims made for the power of an object or substance.

If a proclaimed "holy object" doesn't provide evidence consistent with the claims made of the object, it's evidence that it has no such power, not that the user holds doubts about the proclaimed power.

If you flip a light switch and the light doesn't come on, do you conclude that you have a lack of belief in the mechanism of illumination or that the filament in the bulb is broken? It's the bulb or power supply, not the belief or lack of belief of the one flipping the switch.

La6Muerte66~

There is always believe in a product even if it has to be evaluated and that includes natural remedies. When a mother nurtures her young we may not believe in the medicine but we do believe in what mum says. We go on trust, faith.
Maybe I wasn't being very clear.
When we talk about mythical or mystical objects needing a belief for them to operate we normally refer to an 'essence' or the religious part of you believing it.

La6Muerte66~

Without re-writing your paragraph ... Im sorry but I just didn't 'get' the gist of that. (sorry)
Let me try again ... If an object is blessed by the Pope, is that object now holy? If we believe it to be then it is and it has potential to do wonderful things ... again it's about faith but not necessarily in the object.

Speaking purly from ritual POV you'd need to get them bless to use them....when your scared, you'll bleive in anything to get out of that sistueation. So I do believe that you can use something with out totally believeing in it.

"One doesn't need to believe that a gun can kill or injure for the injury/death to occur. One doesn't need to believe that their vehicle is out of gas before the engine stalls. One doesn't need to believe that the batteries in their flashlight are producing a charge differential across the filament for the flashlight to work. That's because these are all valid tests of claims made for the power of an object or substance."

I think it si more based on the faith of the individual and not the relic or object.

For how can an object diplace a demon or ward of vampires or other creatures. mths handed down thru the centuries to find a way to deafeat evil.

Much like the movies, every evil has a means to be destroyed. the good guys always seem to prevail.

This discussion brings to mind similar questions about crystals and wards.

Many people say to use quartz crystals to keep your "working area" clean when performing ritual. Does the crystal then have magical properties that keep the "aether" clean? Salt has also been mentioned as a tool to use in magical practice. One particular example that comes to mind is when "disposing" of negative energy. A few sources claim that salt will dispel any negativity in the energy, or something like that. What are the supposed qualities of these crystals (salt is a crystal, so I guess it's part of the same belief) that allow them to "clean" the "aether?" Or is it the person's belief that the crystals will work that allows them to do so?

As for wards, or enchanted objects, do these objects have their own power as well, or do they also depend on one's faith in the spell? Many sources on magick will tell you to make wards to protect your house or family from evil spirits and such, but as with holy relics, would they have their own power, or would it be dependent on belief?


Of course, I again don't feel that there is any evidence for any of this, but from a hypothetical standpoint, these are valid questions.

My family coming from Italy had these charms in their house to protect the house from evil. Remeber it still.

Superstitions and traditions, yet I do think the faith in the object makes people have inner piece for themselves.

If you don't have any belief or faith that an object (holy or otherwise) has the power to cause change, for better or worse, why would you use it to begin with?

If an object were to be considered Holy, I think you'd have to have a fundamental belief in the religion of this object for it to have any power for positive change.

Of course, this is if any object has the ability to hold power other than the energy (positive or negative) the holder imparts to it (through faith, as mentioned above), for whatever purpose its used for.

La6Muerte66,

"However, what if the object is being used on you? Does your belief (or lack thereof) in the object have an effect, or does the object itself have a power that isn't dependent on belief."

If someone who believes in and practices Voodoo makes a doll to represent you, then sticks it with needles, will you feel pain?

That's a basic philosophical question that has yet to be answered by anyone who actually believes in the supernatural. Never has it been demonstrated that a Voodoo doll has any effect unless one already believes in it. But to someone who believes these things can actually have an effect, the question remains as to whether any object can have its own intrinsic power, or if the power is only in the belief of the user.

I should have continued that. A person who believes whole-heartedly in the voodoo doll will almost certainly feel pain when it is pricked, but the question arises as to whether said pain is actually because of some power in the doll, or entirely in their own mind.

the key is in the word "holy". what makes something holy? being sacred to a religion or faith. without the faith, it is nothing more than an artifact. the holy relic may be a weapon or tool, but it will need a conduit for the power to pass from the diety to the relic, and that conduit is the weilder. if that weilder has no faith or belief, then it will not work.

if a perfectly good lamp is connected to a perfectly good power supply by a solid plastic cable, it will not give light. it must have a metal wire running through it.

the principle is the same for holy relics - the user must have a strong faith running through him / her.

Beliefs have never been shown to hold any power to do anything other than to misguide those who place belief above evidence.

yet if all we had was evidience or science, we would in fact live in the dark ages.faith has given way to many scientific revolations.

faith is only as powerful as the person who believes. nohing more. Like scientific eveidence, if something is given to me that shows evedience or scientific theory, and my faith determines other than that why would i believe in your theory.

Just like the cases being proven here. Holy object have been around since the dawn of our age and the key to the gods and their weopons.

Much like the mecury sword which Ghangis Kahn was theorized to have. do we believe its existance. why never been proven, yet the myth still holds.

The holy objects of the christain religion, from the ark to the thorned crown. faith is a powerful tool. will it ward of demons or anything < probably not, but for the person believing in the faith and object it holds a lot of power.

I beg to differ. When has faith ever given way to ANY scientific revelation?

yet lets flip that and ask when has scientific revelation given any to faith. why is it so hard to engulf the power of faith.

Why because it cannot be proved yet it is relied on in our cultures and societies and takes up more than half in all living humans.

belief in objects whether its tailsman, crystals, daggers in rituals, every faith has its own luck charms or medalions. faith or science who cares it was just a post based on"do you have to believe to use them"

True it does not have an effect on anything. but the the person who has the faith in the object they do in some strange way feel that they do have the power of the object. psycological aspects.

Its all in the faith. I wear jewelery, a black beaded bracelet, and a hand made metal wolf. The bracelet, is to help contain the evil " " with in me and to turn in it to energy, to keep it from moving on to someone else, and harming them. The wolf is more of a protector to keep the evil chi and spirits ar bay.

Like I said the stronger the faith the stronger your object will become, no matter if you are right or wrong.

I don't wish to go too off topic here but would just like to respond to something that Beastt17 has written.

At the same time, how can a belief (faith), displace a demon? Beliefs have never been shown to have any power to change anything.

It seems to me that a person who believes ( rightly or wrongly ) in demons, would also believe in a power
( whatever that power might be ) that would defeat them.

Beliefs have in my view changed things, at the very least beliefs bolster an individuals courage.

La6Muerte66


you always make valued points, yet alot of mortals do have trust in their religion, their political goverments. yet it has in many ways the values of faith in these things too.

Holy objects have always been assiociated since the dawn of the days. is there proof of these things. Spear of destiny. the thorn crown, cup of christ. no evedience of yet,

but alot look to these as real as the air we breathe and yet not found. the faith or trust in ones religions are their trust in something higher than we could explain or prove.

My beliefs on this subject is that in order for a "holy item" to work, one must have faith or belief in that item. You don't have to belong to any certain religion to believe in an item. But that would just lead into another subject to wither faith is only specific religion based or not. Basically I think the in order for the object to work, the power really lies within the beholder so to speak as I think one's own energy would be required to make such items work as well, not just the items them self or by blind faith alone.

well i believe that you do need to believe. because why use if you don't believe in another power. no matter who you worship.god,satan,budda,etc. there has to be magical powers around. and there is power in numbers as well. so the more people you have that believe gathered can do more.

i think that yes you do have to believe, if you dont believe you dont expect it to happen anyway and you wont look for evidence that it is happening.

"we respond to our beliefs".

well written and said Beast, the mind has the power to believe that tailsman work or doesn't, the faith the human race holds in ones self that the object is helping.

ORIGINAL QUESTION POSED:

In many legends it says to help fight evil you are to use a holy object or say holy words.

Now the question is if you do not believe in the holy object, can it really work to help you? How would you know to use it? Or could there be worse problems if you do not believe in it but try to use the object?


My Response:

Holy objects? Hrmm... Lets see.
Depending upon your own personal belief system or religious orientation, this question has so many variables.

Holy objects, vestments, libations, amulets, talismans, sigils - just to name but a few - have various uses. As both an occultist, a shaman and a healer, yes I do use certain facets of "holy objects" ranging from self protection when doing a working right through to empowered objects that enhance any given working.
So my answer is yes. I do believe, as I do use and I do see the difference when using them in comparison to not using them. It actually can and usually does make a huge difference. Even as simply as using them for a shifting of consciousness, if nothing else.

Depends highly on your personal beliefs.

I yet again must refer to the word faith..... If you believe something has power then it most certainly does... Think about the power of an object that many people hold in reverence..

To assume that no scientist believes in the Christian God, and therefore their disbelief is what causes the lack of results, would be incorrect. There are theist scientists, and I'm sure not all of them actively disbelieve in objects they test. However, to let any belief or disbelief interfere with the data and results is bad science, and most try to avoid it. If they didn't, such results wouldn't make it past peer review.

yes faith and believe `` two wonderful words got me threw alot of hard times ` i believe and have faith and i swear it works everyday at chemo and radiation ** it helped me so much to be strong and live another wonderful day !!~

Yet in certain areas these so called holy objects have been sought after since the Arthur Fables to even Germany Looking for these to help control the world.

Scientific proof or not these objects still hold meaning in those who believe. The mind is said to hold the power to make a sick person be healed and in faiths these tailsmans are even stronger.

From christians to Voodoo tailsmans have ranged in all sorts of objects, and are still collected and used by those who are in this religious society.

Beast, La6Muerte66..

yes the mind can basically change the outline of heal in a body to the mind only.

My mother has had cancer for sometime now, and they gave her 6 months to live.She refused treatment and said she is going to have fun and enjoy her time before she goes. It has been 5 years to this date.. her doctor tells her it is the mind set she has.(the cancer is still there and getting worse.)

So objects percieved as holy, crosses and other tailsman, are infact just objects, but to the people who hold them and believe in them they are endowed with some power. The faith in believing is strong.

will it run off the devil, or demons,probably not. like the salems lot movie when the master vampire and the preacher went head to head

"faith against the face" we know the outcome...

see what we feel entire nature of the whole universe (I mean here feel entire cosmos) give us the matter, the entire nature will give us and what mode we dsire it, the nature gives us that way within the act of law of karma. see if you say oh god bless me shielding of my daughter from evil, nature will provide us as the God or Jesus or Mother Teressa. But important is divinity and feeling of the ask whome you asked. That directly reaches the core of the universe depand on your feeling towards your ask and the mode you asking from the cores of the universe.

The feeling of demand and awareness of giver in core must be there.

then mode may be mantra or monument whatever it may be. yes mantra help our conscious grown that way and work in that line.

Understandable with ALS , but this is breast cancer, but that is here or there anyway. But the mind can indoubtably change the outcome of ones own thought process and have the abilty in my mind to slow disease or even in some rare cases cure.

But we must think objects presumed by believers is there faith to ward of evil or such. scientific or not we can not truly understand the patterns of the human mind and thought process. for we are not all computers that act and do the same program.

wether the scientific community or not believes in objects is up to them, but faith holds a lot to those. it is like taking the scientist computers away, for they are their symbols or objects of belief.

I agree with cadrewolf. Faith is what most people either consciously or subconsciously "rely" on. Its of a personal and most intimate nature of any given scenario or action (ie: ritual or otherwise).

In Voodoo, holy objects are a mid-stream to main ideal.
In Satanism, holy objects are fairly common in many regards.
In Wicca, holy objects are only to enhance the shifting of consciousness.
In Christianity, holy objects seem a must more often than not.
In Chaos Magick, holy objects are merely held within oneself.
In Shamanism, holy objects do hold SOME significance.

So really, it depends on the person, their intent, their purpose and their environment to which they dwell, either physically or metaphysically.

So by wearing this medalion, you will be rescued by angles, if you jump off that roof.. your beliefs are suspended, how confident are you?

Some would be, yet we know the outcome, yet the faith or beliefs would be there tell the end.

Much like solving problems yet lets take all machines away and now try to solve theories.

You could because the faith you have in science and problems would be there. like the faith believers hold true and dear wether spirtiual or the fact of mattr.

So you have no faith that a holy object would produce an Angel?

Are you confident that a dab of holy water would cure your wound (providing you have enough faith)? Or would you go to a hospital?

some faith healers would say yes. It has been in the news lately with religious people ho believe not in science or medicne but their own faith.

Objects are man made, and inspired by the religions they may be asssisated with. this is the belief. I wear a cross for my faith. will it protect me. my faith says it helps me from day to day. will it stop a bullet or rid of demons no. it is my own faith is why i wear it, for my inner faith.

So when people claim an object will physically demonstrate something they confide in that item, there is no faith.

A cross protecting a person from "demons" is unverifiable, so to assert that a cross has power to repel a "demon", is all in the head of the person who believes so, first they believe demons exist, then they believe that the unwanted demon, is repelled by the power of the cross.

So if something happens that can be intepreted as demonic happens, the persons faith is brought to accountability.. sad really sad..

but this is the way most of the societies feel. the religious faith(whatever the religion) is based on the practices and the inner belief of that structure.

If i stopped in front of a car would my cross stop the car, no, but my faith is if i did die i shall hopefully go somewhere better, or be hurt just a little.

do i claim demons possesed me to step in front of the car no. my own action. demonic possesions have been document yet are they real, i would need more evedience on this.

but the inner faith of the object to keep from getting sick or to ease my day to day routine fine, much like worry stones or crytals or even lucky money in pockets. all quirks of society.

If they are a holy object then it makes sense that you need to hold some sort of religion to actually use it.
Where if the object holds its own power then anyone has the ability to use it.
But of course your must hold some sort of religious belief to use anything with a holy reasoning i.e. a rosary.

This is a very interesting discussion. Any object can be infused with energy. Literally pushed in, exact oposite of what a psi vamp does (Some intelligent PSI Vamp comment about this). I suppose that if a person was blessed by God or a Demon or the Elements and they channeled pure faith, protection etc, the object would still carry a charge. I have a few special crystals that are like that. I use them mostly for adjusting my aura frequencies but yes I believe an object can become infused with the energy of the believer and if potent enough (through repetetive encantation) could send a charge out to someone it was designed to target even if the person wearing it did not believe in it. Peridot stones are notorious for that. :) That's why you put them on your kids! -Chela

Holy objects are used from much ago. holy water, concentrated one and other objects are much used. here the rice crop is much used in holy rituals and in spell works. or lemon or coconut is used. it fade takes away bad spell and even bad spirits some time other's soul too if spell is of that type. Holy water has most importance in hinduism. It used for purification and banishing.

What makes an object Holy? Man decides they are holy because they were used in connection to someone or something they believed had some sort of powers. Water is merely blessed but anyone could bless water. It wouldn't have to be a cleric but not everyone sees it that way. You imbue the water with energy of a certain type by your very thoughts. If you don't believe me look up the research Dr. Emoto has done with water and thought.

I have read more than a hundred cases of exorcisms and the one's that take the longest to work, from information I have come in contact with, are the more ritualistic. Those are usually Catholic and sometimes those don't work. Generally exorcisms done by a Protestant pastor or a trained lay person seem to work better from those I have read about otherwise in the past. I am not so sure if it is belief so much as determination. Whatever they are they lie and don't give their names but say something dumb like Legion or we are many or state some name that people believe in that might not be their name at all or even what kind of being if they are indeed a being at all. It could very well be something caused by the person's unconscious. Thoughts can do many things and we do know some have disassociative personalities so it's hard to know if any object would work whether one believes in them or not. I would say whatever the use is would depend on where the belief should lie as far as the practitioner or the recipient.

True Holy objects are deemed holy by Humans, yes we know this, for i am sure that in the animal world they may have a holy tree or something. It is what we as our culture has deemed worthy because of religious background , history or up bringing.

Exorcism, is not just done by catholics, more records have been done by them and yet are deemed not viable in any religion. But would like t see the studies that have been mentioned.

Faith or inner faith I shall call it seems to hold the meaning of holy objects. but like I have stated, the objects are essentialy man made and gave preceedure to the claim for history or faith based religions. that is all. its ones own self that will hold the faith in the object.

There seems to be a lot of conjecture on this, but i believe it will mostly come down to faith, but whether its the faith of the holder of the object or the thing you're trying to combat is the big question. If a thing is scared of a cross then it would matter little if you believed in it, but your faith in whatever you have faith in would be your best weapon in my opinion

If you didn't believe in something and then tried to use it whatever you were trying to use it against could sense that and the object wouldn't affect them. It's all about the energy you project.

I believe to use a holy object you have to have a believe that it will do what you intend. I woudl say the energy is absorbed through u then into the object

As it is all psychological effect (imho), of course you must believe in the "holy" objects for any perceived effect to be received.


- Upir'

i believe that the bible, the objects anything in that matter is all false. yes we may use the bible as a guide on how to live and so on, but that is about it. the objects are nothing but just that.

~anu

Holy objects- do you have to believe to use them?

RE: All in the faith or belief of the person I for one used to have faith in holy objects.Untill I attended a cleansing with an exorcism and none of which worked no matter what the priest did or said. This went on for a week.And after a week the priest said just move out of the house.
I lost my faith and belief after this happened.And I was so faithful I ware holy objects and even had a medicine bag.
Had holy relics and objects such as crystals in my house for cleansing rituals I went as far as to play with my corn dolly and that didn't even work I even made a wax doll used it on some one i really hated. I had so much faith i even saw in my head they were hurt. Nothing happened.

question Holy objects- do you have to believe to use them?
I suppose you would have to but I do not any more.

I believe it is the faith within ourselves. The object may become a comfort to us.

I have many objects that I use in Sangomancy Rituals. They all have their purpose and I bless each one of them.

I know for myself , not that I would consider the holy, but the tools on my altar are all blessed. My chalice,bell,athame each bowl represent each element and so on and so forth.

Believing in something to use them, I would say more of that would go along the lines of charms and talismans. And yes I do have a strong belief in them.

I do believe in holy objects and the way the prayers and faith in them my ways.

The power lies in ones self, but a catalyst (object) gives that person more security to believe.

Yes you have to believe in their power for them to work.
Other wise it would be like going to church, going through the motions, but entering and leaving with nothing .
Anyone can go, but if your faith is empty, you get no where.
A catalyst/object of power is the same.

It is belived that a cross is a ward against vampires, yet what is the cross but 2 objects that form a lower case t. OR is it more? To them who believe in the Christ it is a source of power.. not the item itself but what it represents. To them who do not believe its nothing but an object made out of raw material. To me it come down to faith not in the object but the one that "endows it" with power... not the man, but superior being, hence making it more then just what mortal man can. So i'm in the mind set of: the object is nothing more then the focus point to remind one of where the power comes.. If you believe then its your strenght/conviction in what you believe more then the object itself.

First off..why would you use an object of faith if you did not believe in it? To me it would be useless unless you had a faith or belief in it.

Well I am like Bloodlife I think it is all about Faith. I mean you need to have faith and Belief in soemthing or someone in order for it to work for you. why would you use soemthing or try to if you do not even believe or have faith in what your doing?.. oh well

When I was a kid I had a glow in the dark religious artifact. When I was scared of the dark, I would take it under the blankets with me. It seemed to make me feel safe.

What if you believe in the faith of the person who blessed your holy object? Does that count as a belief in the object not the reason it should work?

Similarly if you do believe in that person's faith doesn't that mean you think their faith has merit and therefore automatically have some belief?

theyre only legends.

Look it up

"Legends - n, pl. the stories people suscribed to before television existed."

legends that has some base of truth behind it.