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I had wondered how many people may know why Lilith is seen with both red and black hair? I have my own personal theories, but was wondering why you would say. Any takers?

"What you would say" sheeesh typos

Lilith? not sure who that is or was, please tell me were I can fin information about this.

this is only a guess but if she was with black hair when she was in eden, but after when she was casted out of eden her hair went red, only due to God's (christian) wrath that he thought she was evil so to was to be her hair... or i could be wrong and it was the other way... or im still wrong and it was only depicted but other cultures that gave her the red hair.

then again it could have looked black in the dark and having a red hue to it in the light..i dunno right now im grabing at straws... but they are good therories.

Lilith was the true first woman....wife of adam....refused to be subservient to him and was cast out....in favor of eve
after leaving eden traveled the outlands....was reputed to have been the mother of demons.....and early matron of magic

ahh thanks Daermon for the info

That was so cool! Thanks. No too far off Sapphire, not far off at all. My theories are pretty close to yours as well.

My thoughts are that, I believe she was the daughter of Nix - daughter of Night (I could be corrected) and with that she had black hair. When she went through the fires of the desert to the Red Sea her hair had taken on a fiery red to reflect the fires of her pergatory.

I could be wrong and a person with way too much time on my hands.

nightstalker...normally your posts are worth reading....but if thats all you have to say on the matter...then why even say it at all....?

When I saw this post I thought you were meaning how many different times she appears in religios texts and mythology about demons and vampirism. I'm not sure about the hair thing.

so try to add something to the thread....
damn newbs
liliths children are referred to as the lillin.....hmmm makes me think of the lady who started this thread....
just who did spawn you Lady Lillian?

Could we possibly have a little more courtesy then to post meaningless replies JUST TO IMPROVE YOUR RATING?? What in the HELL does your rating really matter anyway? The point of this site is to be a database of knowledge and information. The forums are a place to share knowledge and opinions. 100 years from now, noone is going to care what your rating was, but they might be interested in what our generation's views on things were.

Lady Lillian, I apologize.
My beliefs would have to be that it's because of different views of her by the people creating the images. I don't believe in her exactly, someone who may have provided a basis for what I consider myths and fables, sure. And there are two sides to every story. Some will view her as someone to look up to, for refusing to be subservient. Some will look down upon her for displeasing God and being cast ouf of Eden. Fiery red as an image of burning defiance, and black as the shadows she was condemned to.

I may be wrong but I tought that Lilith first was a Goddess then for some reason she became a demon vampire or queen of demons something like that.But I guess I am wrong.

It's just like humans, we have our sides, well, then Lilith has her sides. Good and Bad...I guess thats sorta the answer idk...she was a mysterious woman

Are you talking about Lilith the Vampirerave User?

*coughs!* wha?

twistedillusions, I concur, as the only reference I can find is in the midrash where it also mentions a transformation at the moment of her speaking the name of g*d and fleeing eden, turning her to a demoness.
Before this moment, all references indicate black hair, but after this, references I can find for her seem to be red associated, but I have not been able to find anything specific to a change in her hair colour...

honestly i know very littel about the subject i kind of know a littel but after reading this thread i think i need to hit the books thanks for the info i find it a very interesting subject more to it then i first thought

Thanks for agreeing STABB666... although, what happened to my last post? Poof, it's gone.

Another tidbit.

Everyone, well most, know that Adam was the first HUMAN soul created. So where did Lilth's soul come from? Again mentioned previously, she is the daughter of Nix (again, my theory) who is mother of Night itself. She was considered a free spirit, roaming freely throughout the newly created world (aka earth). When the Godsoul created Adam, all the angels marveled (sound affects ooooohhh ahhhhhh) and everyone wanted to know who would be his companion? Why would Adam need a companion you say?

Adam would need a companion to help him through this new world. Yes, true in the bible he was given the task to 'name' the creatures he came into contact. This is because he was (again theoretically) the first being to come into contact with these creatures.

Scenario: Adam; "Oh look. Big, hairy, tall, teeth! Ahhhh BEAR!" *chuckles. Sorry.

Lilith volunteered to become the first human, from angelic (if you view it that way) form. This is why she would not submit to the first human. He was made of dust, she was also. She was of the earth and in many ways his equal, though most say far more than equal. Just because you see these creatures being made, and not come into actual physical contact with, does not mean you are superior.....just equal. For both of them it was a new experience.

*sigh, I need to say again....my opinion. When Lilith refused to submit to him, she could not become human (just cause she wanted too.) Notice how the three angels sent to her knew her name....yeah angels know everyones names, but what if she actaully knew them before this? This is why she was banished, yet still in human form to roam the deserts, wastelands.

As for the demons? She is not considered a fallen angel, in human form. No matter what children she has, either human or not, God will consider them demons (aka fallen angels).

Oh Daniel and I both saw that picture of Lilith with the snake wrapped around her. We were thinking of buying it to add to our collection.

Maybe more than my two cents.

PS I have a tattoo of the name Lilith in beautiful script behind my neck. *wink. THAT is the reason I chose the name Lady Lilian........nice to see you picked up on it.

Perhaps the red hair representation is a sexual thing, a more promiscous women and she is shown with red hair to indicate she was lustful and not holy.

Wow I feel more and more stupid with every post about religion.

hmm interesting take of her being prior angelic....
I just took it to mean that she was made after adam.....but in the same fasion....and therefore would not be submissive being of the same makeup....
whereas eve is of his own and therefore his....
there is also some conjecture that her children were demons as they are not the children of men...but of the creatures she met outside the garden.....
white wolf games used this to say she is the mother of the skinchangers....or more commonly "were"creatures

Forgive me and you all should know by now that I don't read every single post made in a thread so if this was already answered daer as permission to buttfuck my mother's husband


Anyway

I was under the impression that Lilith was one of the angels cast out of heaven for refusing to be subservient to god. Damned to live on earth as a watcher or something like that.

thats possible...but then if she and adam had children they would be of the nephilim...and thats a whole seperate can o worms...but all I have ever found on her was the first woman stories....and the early pagan faiths often mentioned her as the earthmother

Apologies LadyLillian, but from my admittedly rusty memory, I understood Lillith to have been created simultaneously with Adam and fashioned from the same matter and because they each knew the nature of each other, they were as 'twins' as I think was already mentioned.

The split came when Lillith could not understand why she was always the subservient one, but there is some disagreement as to whether Lillith chose herself to leave Eden, or if perhpas g*d persuaded her or even forced her to. The general consensous is that she chose to and so was turned into a demoness.

once this happened, g*d saw that Adam was lonely and so decided to create a second partner for him. G*d waited until Adam was alseep before taking the rib, so that when the new woman was created, he would not know of its devine origin. So, essentially, Eve and Lillith are(were) of the same being in essence, although Lillith was now changed and Adam and Eve did not know of Eve's true nature and she was then to 'serve' him.

Once Lillith was expelled, she was indeed cursed to have her offspring killed by angels and she was led to take the souls of new born humans that Eve gave birth to because she refused to return. There is a discrepancy on whether Lillith was barren, or whether she could have children, but these would be killed by angels at birth each time. I agree with the former.

Then, the snake, one of g*ds pride, convinced Eve to take the apple and as Eve was of a subservient nature, it was easier to convince her of this and so it was that Adam partook of it and in doing so, came to realisation of himself and the universe around him and thus knew of g*ds decpetion and Lilliths pain, which precipitated g*ds anger, the expulsion form Eden and the rest, is history.

Lady Lilian: that's a nice little tidbit about you! Hehe!

=)

I agree with STAB666. Lilith was of the same material as Adam, therefore refused to be a subordinate herself. She was cast out of Eden. I am just confused on why she murders infants before their name day?

Yes, it's true. I have too much time on my hands. ((My apologies for the length of this))

"Alphabet of Ben Sira"

According to one of the versions of Creation, in the Sixth Day God made Adam, but Eve did not yet exist. God made Adam, and then set him to name every animal, and when they passed before him in pairs, male and female, he felt jealous of their loves, and tried to get satisfaction himself, coupling with each female creature (interesting passage which, in some way, gives reason to the birth of those fantastical creatures which Borges was fond of: hybrid with human torso, but ass or horse or goat legs).

Such experience, anyway, didn't satisfy him; and so he went to the Creator, claiming: «Every creature but I has a proper mate!».

God heard Adam's claim, and formed then Lilith, the first woman, following the procedure already tested with the first man: but, instead of pure dust, he used this time sediment and filth.

Adam and Lilith were not a happy couple. When he wished to lie with her, Lilith alleged that the recumbent position he wanted was denigrating to her. «Why must I lay beneath you?» -she asked-, «I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal». As Adam tried to force her, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magical name of God, rose into the air and left him. (Theatrical and magnificent fleeing which recalls the end of Euripides' Medea).

Adam complained to God: «I have been deserted by my helpmeet». God made at once a command, formed by angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangeloph, and sent them with the order of bringing Lilith back. The angels toured the orb, and found her at last beside the Red Sea, a region plentiful of lascivious demons: Lilith matched them happily, and gave birth to lilim (children made in her image) at a more than hundred per day ratio. «Come back to Adam without delay» -the angels told her- «or else we'll drown you!». Lilith asked: «How can I come back to Adam and live like an honest housewife after my stay beside the Red Sea». «You'll die if you refuse!», replied they. «And how can I die» -asked Lilith again- «when God has ordered me to take charge of every newborn children: boys up to the eight day, that of circumcision, and girls up to the twentieth day? None the less, if I ever see your names or likeness displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it».

Undoubtedly surprised with this agreement with God, which they knew not, the angels agreed with Lilith's conditions and, without achieving their mission, came back to Empireum. As the only reprisal, to please the unsatisfied Adam, God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; and it's said that, if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her.

I'd like to note the website and my thanks "http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/"

It is my opinion that she wasn't necessarily considered a demon by God until she refused. I don't consider it a 'drastic' physical change, more of a backturned banishment from heaven. "If you are not for us, you are against us."

True from my studies that she has been considered a demon all the way back to the Babylonian, Mesapotanian period. *shrug.

Again, just my two cents.....Ok, it's a dollars worth.

wow i never knew any of that cheers .....

She sounds like someone i would hang out with.

Some other takes from both Isaiah (NSRV) and Lilith Incantation Bowls.




Isaiah 34:14f
Wildcats shall meet with hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall repose,
and find a place to rest.
There shall the owl nest
and lay and hatch and brood in its shadow

NRSV


Lilith Exorcized on a Persian Bowl






You are bound and sealed,
all you demons and devils and liliths,
by that hard and strong,
mighty and powerful bond with which are tied Sison and Sisin....
The evil Lilith,
who causes the hearts of men to go astray
and appears in the dream of the night
and in the vision of hte day,
Who burns and casts down with nightmare,
attacks and kills children,
boys an girls.
She is conquered and sealed
away from the house
and from the threshold of Bahram-Gushnasp son of Ishtar-Nahid
by the talisman of Metatron,
the great prince
who is called the Great Healer of Mercy....
who vanquishes demons and devils,
black arts and mighty spells
and keeps them away from the house
and threshold of Bahram-Gushnasp, son of Ishtar-Nahid.
Amen, Amen, Selah.
Vanquished are the black arts and mighty spells.
Vanquished the bewitching women,
they, their witchery and their spells,
their curses and their invocations,
and kept away from the four walls
of the house of Bahram-Gushnasp, the son of Ishtar-Hahid.
Vanquished and trampled down are the bewitching women --
vanquished on earth and vanquished in heaven.
Vanquished are their constellations and stars.
Bound are the works of their hands.
Amen, Amen, Selah.
(Patai78:228f)





Lilith gets Divorced


This is the get for a demon and spirits and Satan
...and Lilith in order to banish them from... the entire house.
Yah ...cut off the king of the demons
...the great ruler of the liliths.
I adjure you ...whether you are male or female,
I adjure you....
Just as the demons write letters of divorce
and give them to their wives and do not again return to them,
so take your letter of divorce,
accept your stipend share [ketubba],
and go and leave and depart from the house....
Amen, Amen, Amen, Selah.
(Patai78:226f)






Lilith Divorced Again


In the name of the Lord of salvations.
Designated is this bowl
for the sealing of the house of this
Geyonai bar Mamai,
that there flee from him the evil Lilith,
in the name of "YHWH-El has scattered";
the Lilith,
the male lilin,
the female liliths,
the Hag [ghost?],
and the Snatcher,
the three of you,
the four of you
and the five of you.
Naked are you sent forth,
nor are you clad,
with your hair dishevelled
and let fly behind your backs.
It is made known to you,
whose father is named Palhas
and whose mother is Pelahdad:
Hear and obey
and come from from the house and dwelling of this
Geyonai bar Mamai,
and from Rashnoi his wife,
the daughter of Marath.
...Be informed herewith
that Rabbi Joshua bar Perahia
has sent the ban against you....
A divorce-writ [gita] has come down to us from Heaven,
and therein is found written
your advisement and your intimidation,
in the name of Palsa-Pelisa ["Divorcer-Divorced"],
who renders to thee thy divorce and thy separation,
your divorces and your separations.
Thou, Lilith, male lili and female lilith, Hag and Snatcher,
be under the ban...of Joshua bar Perahia,
who has thus spoken:
A divorce-writ has come for you
from across the sea....
Hear it and depart from
the house and dwelling of this
Geyonai bar Mamai,
and from Rashnoi his wife,
the daughter of Marath.
You shall not again appear to them,
either in a deram by night
or in slumber by day,
because you are sealed with the signet fo El-Shaddai,
and with the signet of the house of Joshua bar Perahia
and by the Seven who are before him.
Thou, Lilith, male lili and female lilith, Hag and Snatcher,
I adjuire you
by the Strong One of Abbraham,
by the Rock of Isaac,
by the Shaddai of Jacob,
by Yah [is] his name...,
by Yah his memorial...
I adjure you to turn away from this
Geyonai bar Mamai,
and from Rashnoi his wife,
the daughter of Marath.
Your divorce and writ and letter of separation...
sent through holy angels...
the Hosts of fire in the spheres,
the Chariots of El-Panim before him standing,
the beasts worshipping in the fire of his throne
and in the water... Amen, Amen, Selah, Halleluyah!
(Patai78:225f)

Ahh, and she is discussed as God's consort in the Kabbalistic writings:

"Kabbala: Lilith as God's Consort"

"In this striking passage we see Lilith becoming the consort of God! This resulting from God's regular consort, the Matronit, being in exile. While they are apart, the Matronit is abused by the left emanations (bad guys) while Lilith takes her place at God's side. Keep in mind here that 'God' in this context refers to one of the emanations of God, not the absolute (Ein Sof). Of course, it would be tempting to combine this with the 'Adam's first wife' streams of the tradition, leaving us with a story in which Lilith is at first rejected by Adam only to be elevated to be the mate of God himself. I suspect, however, that these stories come from different places and cannot be justifiably combined."


"Zohar 3:69a
One day the companions were walking with Rabbi Shim'on bar Yohai. Rabbi Shim'on said: "We see that all these nations have risen, and Israel is lower than all of them. Why is this? Because the King [God] sent away the Matronit from Him, and took the slave woman [Lilith] in her place. Who is this slave woman? The Alien Crown, whose firstborn the Holy One, blessed be He, killed in Egypt. At first she sat behind the handmill, and now this slave woman inherited the place of her mistress." And Rabbi Shim'on wept and said: "The King without the Matronit is not called king. The King who adhered to the slave woman, to the handmaid of the Matronit, where is his honor? He lost the Matronit and attached Himself to the place which is called slave woman. This slave woman was destined to rule over the Holy Land of below, as the Matronit formerly ruled over it. But the Holy One, blessed be He, will ultimately bring back the Matronit to her place as before. And then, what will be the rejoicing? Say, the rejoicing of the King and the rejoicing of the Matronit. The rejoicing of the King because He will return to her and separate from the slave woman, and the rejoicing of the Matronit, because she will return to couple with the King. (Patai81:468)"

So much trouble was cause because Adam just didn't slap her around a bit and tell her to get her ass back in the kitchen.

...


hehehehe


TINY

*smacks Tiny and tells him to get back to making Stroganoff for me*

As for the red and black hair, I was unable to find any additional information other than what has been posted before me.

you are correct that is one of the theories but i hear it was the fires of hell that gave her the red

Thank you Requiem. Double well said.

My favorite story I heard about her hair was this;

Her mother, Nix Queen of Night, was so saddened to see her human daughter lying there to be damned to live on earth, but foresaken by the Godsoul.

Nix appeared to Lilith in the form of a great dragon. Wrapping herself around Lilith to protect her from all the night creatures, which she had created. Nix stands up, and with one mighty blow of fire and flame over her daughter, she emerses Lilith in fire.

When the fires die down, the ambers disappear and the smoke disipates, Lilith rises up with long red hair and her rebirth. Yes she is considered a demon, by God, but she was now given the gift of eternal life by her mother.

Though her mother will never be able to hold her again, as Nix lives in the spirit world, she gave her daughter the only gift she could offer, eternal life.

Just my two cents.

To me she is not a demon, she is not a horrible monster. She is a woman, born and bred under the most incredible circumstances.
She is a witch
she is a vampire, maybe even the first (yes there are theories of that too)
and she is the great siren to men

of course maybe she just agreed with her stylist that red was sexy that season...hehehe
what do you think of that ladylillian?
hehehe
yup I know.....i'm a jerk
hehe
I try soo hard to keep up that image

not sure but i would like to know my self y this is so

Well, thankyou ToiletDUc for voicign my shared opinion on the one-line posters for hierarchal benefits. Its very rude indeed, not to mention how stupid it makes a lot of people sound.

Well, red hair used to be considered a sign of the Devils influence... but then again, so was being left handed!

Well, I know Christianity isa 'no go' area, but how come depictions of Jesus show him as both Caucasian and African? How come Shakespeare may simply be a deception, in the form of Queen Elizabeth I?

The interesting thing about the past, is that nobody has completely figured it out yet :-)

HOLY cow! This is getting great!

I never knew about the change in hair color, but I'd always wondered why she was sometimes depicted with clawed feet and wings.

thats an easy one....simple artists license.....you tell someone to do a picture of a thing referred to as the mother of demons.....and every artist will depict it differently as to their own inner vision

Dont no any thing about the hair thing MMMM haha

Found more interesting tidbits here.

Some text is copied below:

"Lilith has many origins. In one version of the bin-Sira version of the Bible, Lilith is the first wife of Adam (before Eve) and was created at the same time that god created Adam. In Greek myth, she is the goddess of the dark moon (Artemis is the goddess of the full moon, and Hecate is the goddess of the crescent moon). In Mesopotamian legends, Lilith is a fertility/earth goddess who protects people's children and helps to harvest food. In both Arabic and Jewish myths however, she is a succubus. A demon-woman who hunts men, seduces them and drains their life with a kiss. Jewish mothers believed Lilith would come to take their children away and eat them. "

Was Lillith also made out of a rib???

i am getting confused...........so is she considered a god t hen?

Some time ago she was considered the fertility goddess, and had her own temple, with Priestess' that would bless the young women who hope to bare children soon.

Some texts say she was created from filth and sedament. Yuck, that shows what they thought of her.

From what we understand, she was not made from a rib. She was created essentially from the earth. Eve was created from the rib.

Great add on Requiem.

lilith was sent through the fires of hell we she was cast out of eden

It's quite possibly just a view of the artist... When first drawn (With the black hair) that was considered the colour of evil, dark and forboding, hence both adam and eve were pictured as blond or light brown at that time.

As history progresses and the artists go through time, the new enemy of the church was the celts, hair of red and also demon worshipers as far as the Church was concerned, and so to demonise them to the masses, lilliths hair was changed to match theirs.

Only My personal views, but still probable.

I love that one, thank you.

I still say her hairdresser was feeling artistic and was in her "red" period...heheheh
but yes I think largely it was simply artist representations.....artists have long been given open license in these matters by the church

for your information i m not sure lilith have red and black hair all depend of the picture lol:^)