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For centuries mankind had been gifted as well as cursed by visions and visitations from both Heaven and Hell. Through these, we learned things from both sides. We learned about the fall of Lucifer, the possible end of the world, and other such things. Now, we cut ourselves off. Anyone who claims to have had such visions or visitations are drugged and locked up. For all we know, Lucifer is no longer the King of Hell. For all we know, anything could have happened in the past few thousand years. What do you think?

Interesting topic; I've always had the feeling that while we go on about our daily mundane lives, there is a continual war going on between Heaven and Hell - angels are still being cast out; some are being forgiven and brought back to the fold; others end up being on earth with us and adapt, etc. Who knows?

Hmmm, I guess that's an interesting theroy, but what am I supposed to say? Honestly..... well there's this pastor named Jesse Duplantis who's claimed to have seen and been in heaven. You might try and look him up.
There's also another one, although I think he's died now... and I can't remember his name at all... well anyway he had a near death experiance that was pretty memorable apperantly he kept dying when he was a kid, he had epilepsy or something, and coming back to life. He came face to face with the devil or something. When he came back he prayed to god and saw jesus (I can't remember the whole story, i'd have to look it up)

I think heaven and hell is what we make it to be in our conscious minds , the place that you feel is right for you to go, and you choose where you want to go by following the light. Anywhere in the cosmos, and spirtual enlightenment is finding your own nice place, where you are close to the pagan gods, and the spirits of your loved ones. I think people choose hell for themselves, because they create their own hell.

I have Pagan beleifs, so I would like to be close to the gods in the cosmos, because I seek knowledge and spirtual enlightenment, and to be close to my loved ones.

I will not claim that ethereal visage is one of my best topic for discussion and or debate, since it would be a matter of; to each their own beliefs at this point. Nonetheless, it may not be whether the individual chooses to believe in any consequencial hereafter, but whether or not the consequencial hereafter does indeed exist without any imaginative qualities or perceptions.

I always look to the sky during a storm and can mayhaps tell that a "war" may still be going on in the heavens and the entities on the other side are still fighting it out and or quarrelling amongst themselves. Such as a thundercrash, or lightning war.

Its all the same to me though...A quote from Ozzy Ozbourne with the song entitled: Dreamer..."Your higher power may be god or Jesus Christ; It doesn't really matter much to me."

Personally I think it is a way for the religious martyrs to suck their followers in deeper and further by seemingly manipulating them into thinking that their truly is a destination for the good vs the wicked.

Hell, if not...Then Hitler is in the same place as Mother Teresa. How ironic...

I dont think everyone is necessarily "cut off" as you say, from their spiritual beliefs and world views. Nor do I think everyone who has a "vision" is getting locked up in padded cells and medicated out of their heads either.

But mostly, what I think is that all of these aforementioned examples are that of subjective biases more than any "facts" regarding "Heaven and Hell". Kind of like dreams. There's never been any "proofs" of "truth" of any religion beyond that of emotional subjectivity, which is one reason why the human race has been arguing about it for millenia.

That doesnt mean one's beliefs are false..just means we dont actually know the Will of God (or Gods/esses) at all. At best, we've got Opinions espoused as Facts where it comes to the nature of God(etc) and for the most part, that's caused the Human Race far more grief than good.

In that case the balace used to determine "Hitler vs Mother T. Calcutta" its with a biblical (among other deities) moral scale , since for all believers and subscribers to such deity judge in base of the morals imposed by it, so the adoption is by perception of what is good or evil in their religion, the followers of Hitler believed in what is right and what is the truth behind their belief imposed by the author's preachings, so did the Crusaders, Muslims, Vlad, and anyone that fight their interest with their beliefs. If the privilege of 'Heavens' were to be granted by believing in the christian God then Gautama or Ghandi (jesus-like individuals by kind actions) were non subscriber to the christian religion; Therefore if you dont ask for that God forgiveness of sins and accept him as your God, then you are not going to be accepted in heavens, no matter how good where your deeds in earth and how kind you've been with others, it will not happen, so in terms of christianity Gautama and Ghandi among other similar individuals are in hell right now, even if they left their material things to help the most needed and adored other gods withing their beliefs. So if even a guy that lives in a subcultural tribe in the forest and doesnt know about the world out there and less in christianity and adore other gods other than the christianity, then they are automatically go to hell. With this i try to say that; Heaven and Hell is within the opposer/believers perception and judgement in base of beliefs, you might think you are in the right track and the truth one and the other may think you are in a miscarried religion and going to hell because of it, or that they are the good guys and you are evil, devil worshipers, heretic, etc. Heaven and Hell are man-made paths for the control of the mass sanity of the world actions. Good and evil are things made by us as well, our actions are reflections of our psyche's development since conscience is originated in a individual, so nature has the key to good and evil, not us by default. Nobody choose their parents; by extensions our way of raising; by extensions our way to see life in that scope, in time everyone meet something/someone that can shift change or make someone change his raisings but that falls down in nature itself again, you met the circunstance or the person that did.. may it be a video, a dream, a book, a voice, a channel, a song, person or w.e the interest came and in changed something in you to start a search for your own truth or discovery along the way, so we can choose our paths but nature makes us who we are today.

Me too Sinora,

Yet in mind mind heaven or hell is words we humans have created for the unknown thoughts of death.

Yet are we cut off or have we in our own minds cut our selves off from the boundaries that we think heaven or hell has placed on life.

well i dont know about any of that we do have cold hard facts about some things that happened in the past and that makes them truth look at the fact that so many people in the bible are truth they were actual people in that time and it is written history so even theo we dont know all the facts does not make them any less then a fact .
as fot the part for waiting till we die to find out as i said before i dont think we do die we just go into another plain and if so why leave it to chance to give up your eternity with just a guess.
saying well we will find out after the fact is like saying i dont care and that is same as letting the fact that you cant make up your mind but i say if you dont is no ones falt but your own and you are were you belong.

You see if we do go to the other plain and we are wrong then we are wrong and we pay the price forever.
If you belive in the fact that there is a God or Devil.
And you dont choose one does that not mean you belive in a lie and beliveing in a lie you should go to the Devil .
Makes it easy right or no ...
And just becuase you dont belive dont think you are safe because if you dont belive in one or the other is that not a lie how do you think you got here just from some kind of poof i am now here thats one big lie .
We are created and you have the right to choose by who but not that we were just here forever that makes no sence at all.

This is a hard topic because first you have to believe in a heaven and hell and a being called Lucifer. This is from basically only certain perspectives and that there was a fall of Lucifer who doesn't exist according to Jewish teachings so I would have to say it is all moot. It would solely depend on one's belief system. Coming from another system I think there is an afterlife and such but I don't believe in hell at all nor in any person called Lucifer because Isaiah does not mean what people have been saying according to Judaism. Since they wrote it they should know. It is not my belief system or anything but I would think they have the last word on the Old Testament where a lot of these stories seem to have been derived from due to misunderstandings and mistranslation. I believe this place is hell and life is a set of trials. That's where I stand on that one. I couldn't say why some people say they have visions of certain things but back in those times it is usually representative of ghenna, the fires outside Jeruselem that were perpetually burning where they sacrificed the first born babies.

I would hope we get away from some of these religious oriented threads soon. I know it's interesting but it is tough to answer truthfully one's opinion and why without offending someone who has certain types of beliefs. To answer it presupposes that this idea is indeed fact.

As we look at society good and evil are always at battle we presume, yet one could not be with the other. logicically insight of humans.
the assumition that powers of the heavens and hell are fighting over the souls of the human race to me is a far fetched scheme in our life.

Do not get me wrong I am a christian and believe in these realms seem so abundant and yet at the same time absurd to say the least.

Belief in religious or lifes structure on this would be left up to each of us to make the choice or beleif that when we die that these powers would have choosen the path for us so when we die we belong to one of these super powers.

I would tend to say that the relevance is gone. The locations define themselves, and people/beings enter leave based on the match of their will and the place they exist.

So any change in personnel, does not change heaven/hell. You'll end up in an afterlife which represents either your will, or the will of someone outside your control.

This points attention back to our lives, decisions, and interactions.

You state that we have learned things about both sides (heaven and hell). I ask this…..do we REALLY know the story. Remember that the Christian Bible is only one story and it is no where near the complete story. Many many books were left out because they did not agree with the “church”.

I think that the wool has been pulled over our eyes for a long time………I would like to know the whole story before I choose a side.

Nedra~excellent, we assume that other parts of the bible have been left out by the church.

I concour with your thoughts on this, I believe that many of the written chapters the bible and other books have been left out for the reasons unknown. With dicovery of some related chapters being discoverd we are seeing thoughts and realms of both sides of the spectrum.

Yet would they give the stories or chapters to the people today, or still hide them within the vaults of church.

my question is (and i hope someone else didnt already address it...id feel silly lol) is what about those that have other belief systems? my beliefs have an afterlife that dont include the christian/jewish/islamic veiws of heaven and hell.
for what its worth, most of the pagan belief systems with the exception of wicca are far older than christianity and islam, and many older than judeism.
i personally dont feel the age of the belief is what is important, but i wanted that out there.
so...does this question really take into consideration the non monothesistic beliefs?

~W~

personally I'm a fan of box theory, what ever it is you spent the most emotion doing with your life is what you'll be doing in the after life and you won't know your dead. As far as Lucifer he's not dead even if he died he'd be put right back and his will is to strong to ever want to retire.

It's amazing how religions are pushing the theory of heaven, yet reducing the theory of hell's existance. Due to Human fear factors.
Even the entire issue of Purgatory has been erased and almost forgotten, old testament teachings.
I believe in all three personally.

I don't truly believe in heaven and hell anymore. However when I was a kid I dreamed that I was in a place that was golden and filled with light. And that this guy, "jesus" had come to me looking at me and talking with me. Showing me all the people who are crying, dying and the soldiers that did it all. He said, "you are to save these people" do I believe in this?
Not anymore. I believe I have a different way to bring people to an understanding. I believe that in the after life, if you want to call it heaven it's a good after life, if you don't get stuck on earth or willingly stay on earth you go to a few different possible places. Maybe there are different levels of "heaven" like maybe there is an oasis, or a jungle, or something tropical. Or maybe there is a golden place, or maybe a sanctuary of your dreams, maybe it's something you always felt that you want after you pass.
And as for "Hell" maybe that's a place where people chose to go when they believe in no laws. The anarchist mostly. A place for no jail or prison, a place where you can do anything and everyone does what they want even if the place is well, just destroyed and turned into a hell.
Maybe hell is just this black space with no one around for those who fear being truly alone. with no one, not even your mind to keep you company. Maybe it is a place with that firey lake. But still. This is what I think. And yes, there is a lot of maybes.

Well personally I believe if God exists he can talk to anyone anytime he chooses and any way he chooses. Now if you believe the Bbile to be a factual collection of books anytime man stears from the will of God he either gets cut off from Gods presence or destroyed or called to repentence. The Bible also makes it quite clear that if you are cut off from heaven then hell is were you will go, whos to say that hell isnt remaining in spirit form still having habits, addictions and cravings and notbeing able to satisfy them while watching the living partake. Who really knows!

There are many questions related to this topic.One of them is interesting:
Was Lucifer ever considered in the sacred old texts the king of hell?
I doubt.

Nedra:
About the texts that were left outside the orthodox christian religion: the greatest theologists at that hour left some texts outside not because it was against their belief or the mentality of the age but because some of them have a too big amount of speculations, exaggerations and some contradict the ones accepted having a less secure information related to them.

I believe in many things.
For example thousands of religions believe in a different form of after life. How can thousands of those religions/people be wrong?

how can they be wrong?

Quite easily.

It is the human condition to be perceptionally limited.

There are a conglomeration of many other factors; death anxiety, order seeking and pattern detecting tendencies.
Survival instinct.

Most find the concept of non existence the most abstract and difficult to grasp.

I am in no way pronoucing truth, just speculation.

ALL we will ever have.

Are we fashioned from the god/s or vice versa?

I have difficulty (to make an understatement) to imagine higher deities to be petty squabblers...

To what end is this battle? To merely exist?

If so, they merely fight to exist as *we* do...????

Life after death can be a false comfort derived from mans fear of the unknown or ultimate desire to live on. Our bodies hold energy within them whichis reported to be our conscience selves and as we know energy cannot be destroyed only transformed, the universe wastes nothing, so in an essence we do continue on after death but in what state? I personally believe in a being superior to us.

Why would anyone wish to return to the days of ignorance when charlatans abounded on almost every street corner claiming "visions" of "heaven" and "hell," whatever it took to gain power and influence over the gullible masses around them?

Yet even today there are still those who make such ridiculous claims and those like DJJarak who apparently still believe them. And despite what he asserts, those charlatans who still make claims to "visions" are not "drugged and locked up." Anyone is still just as free today to claim, to believe, and to attempt influencing others however they choose.


- Upir'

Well states Upir, I would only add that such peddlers of spiritual flattery have more books to sell regarding loop holes, and ammendents that make
formally Formal religions more User friendly for secular intersest.

Why do people worry about heaven or hell so often? It's such a debated subject. I'm not scared to go anywhere when I die. because I know, that whatever happens happens.

The reason we don't have visitations from heaven or hell anymore is that we have better explainations for the visions and we don't automatically assume that they are from supernatural beings.

Heaven was created before hell. If I am correct, the Angel Gabriel was kick out for being a bad boy. So, he decided to create his own place and he called it hell. So, both side, from time to time send some warriors down to earth to fight each other. Now, we, the Humans are cut between those two worlds. They both are doing the best that they can, to brings you into their sides. My opinion.

I do not normally respond to these types of deep issues in the forum for reasons many would not understand. I have protocol to adhere to, like not saying too much unless you are an apprentice. And this arena is not necessarily the best place for heavy discussion, due to elements that I will not explain here, as to not take away from current subject.
Okay, what I am about to say is not my personal opinion. It is a truth that was passed down to by my elders from one generation to the next, for literally thosands of years. I completed a 25 year apprenticeship to know certain things. Some I can share, most you must earn, that is what makes you worthy.
But I will tell you this :
Heaven and Hell are not the only two destinations for the afterlife. My culture does not deal with either, and Buddhism has eight levels of afterlife, for example. So, there are many pursuits and many destinations. The path you walk today determines which one you be in. First of all let me address the definition of religion. It is from the old laton, relio negra. It means to return to, and my people don't have to return to something we never left. So, not all beliefs/practices are a religion. Next, the definition of heaven is from the old english, heofon, it means to be heaved up or to be in a place of contentment. Hell is from the old english helan, and it means to hide, or be in the dark. So, truely those two options are here in this realm, and are determined by the choices you make. It actually has nothing to do with the afterlife. And anyone who wants to know more, may message me.
especially you my Zi, =) ,
Okay, that is all I will say about this here in this arena, due to ancient protocols.
Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Now... on to his remarks re: the topic itself.

For one claiming ultimate knowledge on this topic, though he conveniently can't actually divulge any deeper details, yet it seems highly suspicious to me at least that the hints or "truths" he does provide amount to nothing more than the universal opinion of almost everyone that whatever afterlife there might be will be based upon the path we follow in life. This is then followed by an error and typo-filled etymology lesson on the origins of the terms "heaven" and "hell."

- Upir'

anyways back on subject. There are many people who have many debates on heaven and hell. I also have believed that if you truly think you will go somewhere when you die, you will probably go there. But I'm not for sure on that one. It's always been a thought to pass my mind.

I believe in neither heaven or hell, but if I am not mistaken, after God cast Gabriel out he told him to start hell to maintain balance

Anyway, heaven and hell area very controversial topics. It would be impossible and uneventful if we were all the same. Variety is the spice of life.
And again, not all beliefs have heaven or hell as elements of their afterlife. That is what I was trying to articulate. Nothing more, and nothing less. I am a humble messenger.

Wait - was it Gabriel who was cast out - or another angel(s)?

Everyone is entitled to believe as they want. Personally I do not take into account too much of what others "claim" as that is their own perceptions and their own experiences.

It is almost difficult to discount that they do exist as almost every culture believes in them..it may be by a different name but the belief is still there.

I can't say for certain whether they are angels or demon, but I do know that there are spirits in the world that want to help humanity and there are those who would rather we destroy ourselves in a blaze that would set the heavens alight. Whatever they are I just wish they'd get over with it!

Lol, yeah certain spirits have been known to wreak havoc on mankind, and still do! The proof of this although a personal experience, is after a night out, falling over and cutting my head open...dam that Vodka and Gin was strong...never mix with the spirits ^^


This is what I think...

I always felt sorry for Lucifer when I was a kid and going to Sunday school. It was run by Christians they taught the concepts of religion. The all forgiving god who decided to not be all forgiving! After a couple of years questioning I was booted out!

Heaven and Hell is just as fantastic in my mind as Adam and Eve. A great story, the battle between both sides. The bible is full of wonderful literature.

Excellent topic. AS a former pastor The separation from both heaven and hell are matters of degree. When a person starts the experience with the understanding that before Christ we were cut off from heaven. That only a very select few were allowed entrance, Enoch being one example. Then the premises that after the crucifixion and Christ own experience of separation from heaven for the hours he hung on the cross as a mortal. Then at his death and resurrection he then opened the gates to humanity. Now those who are born again learn a similar example life before becoming a Christian the dark time of their live that this is a separation from god then upon deciding on becoming a christian that now becomes the lighted side of their lives without that separation.

As for hell Fallen Angels of which there are two individual casts. Those that fell from the sins of pride which was 1/3 of the angel lead by "Lucifer". The Greek translation is the Morning Star. For he was the most favored by god sitting at his left hand side. Their sin of pride was what cast them out. But even then Lucifer still worked for God. as a judge and jurier for him. Doing moral inventories on humanity, example Job. But after the years past he realized that gog love the humans more and chose to reign on earth over the humans to steal gods precious love.

The second set fell for the sins of lust over human women. This is verified in the lost books of Enoch and his account and observation for god on these fallen ones.

So there never really has been a seperation from hell persay. Now for more clarity in that look into revelations for a more defined explaination and the writing of Nosrtrodamus there you find what is to follow next. The trials and tribulations and the 1000 yaers of peace and the final battle of good and evil

I believe that many people just believe what churches teach us and alot of people dont look at thier own personal experiences. The only time that we will really know the whole story on heaven and hell is when we die

Aint that the truth Blackhawk. We only know about heaven and hell because we were taught when we were young. And as a whole, the body of teaching has changed over the decades, and over the millenia for that matter.

The two previous posts state it very well. We have our own thoughts and ideas but those were based on what someone else has told us it is. Whether it be a church or a parent. We truly will not know until the time comes and we can find out for ourselves. Then again it can still be based on our own perceptions and be a different experience for everyone.

Aronoch -
Thank you for your post; especially on differentiating the two different times that angels were cast from heaven.
It would appear that the first group were cast out due to pride, while the second group were cast out due to lust - two of the Seven Deadly Sins. It just ocurred to me how ironic it is that the first sinners were mostly angels, and not humans. And - how humans still have a chance of redemption with God, whereas the cast out angels seem to be s--t out of luck.

DeadlyDesire,I respectfully disagree, with you. And yes, we can still be friends and disagree.
In my Native American culture we do know when we are going to die .Many of us see it in a vision quest; and are told of the choices the afterlife offers. It is up to us what we do with the information. But I do tend to stop and listen to wisdom that has been down for centuries, far older that Christianity , Buddhism, Muslim, Zoroasterianism,Satanism, Wiccan,etc...[ there is a huge list, just too many to name them all here. ] And I always consider with the weight factored in by considering the source of information, as well. I am not saying any practice is better or worse than another. They are all different destinations, and each have their pros and cons.
There is an old saying used by medicine people :
I am like a rock in the desert, no greater, and no worse than another rock in the desert. The spirit keepers of my people would say :
I am like a piece of sand in a great sea of sand, difficult to distinguish from any other grain of sand. That which is hard to find, that which is beneath the rock.
That which holds the rock.
Also, in my culture, and again this is just one very old ilk. We have many beings that are not human in our world as well human. I am a spiritual being, and have known many who have seen them, including myself. It especially occurs in ancient private ceremonies. And yes, we have Native American vampires, and shapeshifters. But there are many more. Some live between worlds. In my culture visions and spirits, and non-humans are a part of our everyday life, so it makes it difficult for some to understand these kind of experiences, especially if they have been city raised, no offense, but it does dissconnect you from Mother Earth. What I can definitely say is : OH, what my eyes have seen...................

therealthing...yes hon we can still be friends and disagree as we all have opinions and personal experiences of which we draw from.

I understand and respect what you are saying as that is something you have experienced but there are those of us who have not experienced anything like that and have to go on what we believe to be true..not that it is..but our own personal thoughts and ideas.

hugs

back at ya! LOL! Too bad more people can't agree to disagree and be amicable about it.

Thank you for saying so. I try to be a reflection of my learning,LOL
Otherwise, why did I bump my head so hard to get the information, if I am just gonna waste time and effort not applying it, and end up with no fruit at the end, LOL
Now, this is heaven, you give yummy hugs.
Your Sister Always
=)

I am glad you are sharing the fruits of your knowledge to enlighten those of us who have not experienced it and to open our minds to other possibilities.

Thanks sis!

Ok deadlyxdesires and therealthing, but it seems you two are actually agreeing. Therealthing, did you learn about vision quests from your elders? Did they not assist in your early training on vision quests and teach you various other information.

yes

yes, I did learn from my elders many things. I wrote about it earlier in this thread.
And I didn't imply we weren't agreeing. DeadlyDesired said she disagreed with me.
if I got this right,LOL.
So we agreed to disagree and hugged. Then she appreciated a mature reaction to beings that aren't necessarily all alike. Everyone is different. then we went on oggie-fest,hehe

The two spiritual paths I personally respect, are Taoism, and Native Spirit Medicine.

Respect is a very important element in life.
BTW
I respect you dabbler, and many beings that I have met here, too many to name here, since dabbler was above me, I had to say his name,LOL. Plus he is in my Coven,LOL
VR is most stimulating.
=)

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs no matter where they come from. In this it is personal perception and the faith in which we grew up with that usually forms our minds and opinions on such matters. Just because I am not Native American does not mean that I cannot accept their beliefs because they may not match mine. So yes you could say that we agree but not about our beliefs but that each one is entitled to believe as they want.

I guess my point was that you both seem to have beliefs based on what you were taught and what you experienced. The teaching and experiences were different, but you both got them from your elders, teachers etc...

Yes you are correct in that assumption 1024..it is the way in which we were taught that formed our opinions and beliefs. However, in my case, I do not necessarily follow was I was raised to believe in but have inquired about different belief systems to expand my horizons and understanding.

Correction : I have to correct myself. I made an error when I forgot about me saying that I did disagree, or whatever. I have dyslexia ,LOL.
So, now I am not sure if we are agreeing or not,LOL
And yes, I stop at green lights and go at red ones. And no those days I don't drive,LOL.

Also, to address issue of well rounded education. Yes, I have been taught many things for that very reason of a round education. That is why I mentioned some of the other pursuits earlier. One of my teachers, actually knew the Dali Lama
[ not sure of spelling, so I had very close contact with that for example. Also, he knew Anton LaVey. That elder I am referring to has passed on to the Great Dream Time. I also, mentioned all the other destinations that are possible , other than the one I am headed for. I wouldn't want everyone to be the same, how dull.
I love stimulating conversation with other intelligent beings like yourselves.
=)
Knowledge is a gift, but it is of no use without the wisdom to wield it.

Unless you have sought the edification of the rituals of the ancients, you are cut off from the knowledge of Heaven and Hell ,but you are subject to the perils of faliing to follow the path.

Doru, are you making a random comment or talking to me. Because if it is the later, I already clarified I follow all proper protocols.

Disclaimer,LOL :
I find it difficult to really convey certain things through the computer. Misunderstandings are easily born, due to its limits. I am the type of being that prefers to have conversation face to face. I also strive to be thorough, just a quirk,LOL.So, even though I try to be thorough, that is impossible,LOL. So, no amount of writing can express the depth of what I wish to speak.This subject of Heaven and Hell is such a firecracker, especially for Western modern thinking. Even in this big world of the internet, it is amazing how tunnel vision can set in even here.

Plus I should have me eyeglasses on when I write this stuff,LOL

Also, Doru I wonder if you have considered, that if certain practices never had a concept of heaven or hell, then it would not be an option of that culture's afterlife. Isn't that what we are really discussing, the afterlife options ?
Plus, if those places are not a part of that world then you can't fall there even if you tried.
=)

TRT don't worry about being perfect. I know what you mean about trying to talk in here. Sometimes I read my post after it is done. Then wish I had of said something in a different way, or you wished you had of added something or whatever. Sometimes my mind goes faster than my mouth. Hugs Ya

Anyway, yeah I think we are talking about after life cause the title of the thread is cut off from heaven and hell. And what you said is that if the belief of something is not known to a person, then they could not think about something they have no awareness for, therefore making it unable to go to that place at all for that individual.

Thank you mercurymoon, exactly. You said that very well. I liked it very much.HUGS YOU BACK
I guess it is hard for some to wrap certain known knowledge around their brain, because they were never exposed to that. I understand that because I see it from the other end . They have a hard time envisioning something other than heaven or hell. I won't envision heaven or hell,And I have a difficult time even thinking about heaven or hell, much less going to either; then much less to cut them off. And,yeah, I am saying you can't get cut off from a place that wouldn't have been an option. in the first place I am enjoying the depth of our discussion very much.
I like to help inspire deeper thinking.
I am cross-eyed already, from reading computer screen,LOL
I and am gonna go , I am getting tired now,LOL
Your Sister Always,
XXXOOO

So is there a theme in the last several posts that suggest that certain tried and true techniques, taught by those that came before us, will keep us out of peril as we follow our spiritual path?

1024 I am not sure if that is what they are trying to convey other than stating their beliefs and practices. I believe they are trying to make the statement that for people who have never been exposed to the "idea" of heaven and hell would have no concept of it so how could their non-exposure to it cause their peril in the end?

Thank you DeadlyDesire, my Sister. You got what I was saying.
yeah [smiles happily and hugs ya ]
I just love good healthy deep esoteric discussions, gives me the warm fuzzies.

yes, another essay, well you asked 102,LOL.......
there are no easy way to word some things, and the best can not be spoken.

But to answer 102 , from my culture's view , would be to say that no one can avoid peril in their quest for spiritual enlightenment or any other aspect of life in this realm,[peril is the opposite of safety in the balance of ordered chaos].
So, no matter how times things are proven and tested, you cannot escape the fact that this realm is imperfection.[ That doesn't mean we don't strive to be the best we can be, as close to perfection as we can get here in this realm]
So, nothing can be perfectly safe.

Life itself is one big risk. It is one big school. But it is worth every minute of it. They say you are never as alive as the moment right before you die. It is said to be so electric, intense and spiritually elevated. Like the quickening in the movie Highlander; for lack of better way to describe it. Well, I want to live that electric with every breath. I want every breath to be that intense, that fulfilling. To be that alive. Like the rose, it is most beautiful when it has fully opened, right before it dies.
So, nothing is perfect absolutely; the closet you will ever be to it is at the first split second you wake up, and then it is gone. This can not be a realm of perfection, or there would be no drive for self improvement, for example.

But since nothing is perfect. I am going with a spiritual pursuit that ends in the fruit meant for me . Everyone is different, as to what ultimate afterlife they wish to be in. Look at the wonderful many options there are for spiritual enlightenment. The roads are a numerous indeed. It is good to be educated about the options. That doesn't mean practice them , it means be educated. Then decide to practice the craft that ends with the fruit you want. Look at the fruit that each of those pursuits offer, and if the fruit that you see is not what you want, then don't pursue that belief, craft, practice, etc.... That part is pretty simple. So, I hope this answered you 102 my friend.
=)
I do so enjoy the stimulating conversations with friends, sweet fruit indeed.

Realthing, my intent is not argumentative. I think I see a thread through these posts that I just wanted to clarify.

I guess what I saw was that Doru made the comment:

Unless you have sought the edification of the rituals of the ancients, you are cut off from the knowledge of Heaven and Hell ,but you are subject to the perils of faliing to follow the path.

I take this to mean that the rituals of the ancients would help to keep one from falling into peril. Not that one path or set of rituals was better than the other, just there are know paths and rituals that many have followed before. I took this to mean Doru was suggesting learning about these paths and rituals.

Your respnose was: ...I already clarified I follow all proper protocols.

I guess this suggests to me that you also felt that there are rituals and paths to follow, paths blazed by others before us.

You go on the say: Then decide to practice the craft that ends with the fruit you want. Look at the fruit that each of those pursuits offer, and if the fruit that you see is not what you want, then don't pursue that belief, craft, practice, etc....

Again a reference to the existance of previously established practices that one should learn.

My real questions is:

Do you see dangers in blazing your own path?

What if I didn't learn about previous crafts, practices rituals that other had developed over time.

What if I went on my own search, with no guidance? What would I find? Are there perils that can present themselves along the way that I could avoid by learning from those that came before?

There are some misunderstanding, but I get what you are asking now. Sometimes communication is a trip. I am a strong and passionate being, and people often mistake that for other things, so miscommunication begins.
I also, tend to be thorough and cover more that the question usually asks for, but I want to be a benefit to as many others as I can, so many readers may benefit at once.
Yes, blazing a trail off on your own can de perilous/dangerous, even spiritually mentally and physically dangerous. There are creatures that would wish you harm for their own gain; just as the world of man. There are those that want to harm, those that watch, and those that help. Going off on your own is only done after learning and gaining enough spiritual armor and weapons to be able to do that. Then you become the teacher with your apprentices. This is how it has always been done. Today, even doctors are the masters of the craft of medicine[ science of the body and mind]. They go into an apprenticeship to learn surgery, or cardiac specialist, for example. You can't just wake up and do brain surgery, you could kill someone. Well, these dynamics are not different in the spirit world that is all around you. There are worlds inside of worlds, inside of worlds. I will leave that discussion of worlds for another day. Or else this essay will get even longer,LOL
I would suggest reading Manly P. Hall, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages".
He was an apprentice to something old, like myself. It is a good place to start. But remember books are wonderful tools, but hey too have their limits.
For example, you can't ask it a question and get a response.

Okay, I hope this gives you your answer to your question 102; if you want to know more please ask.
It is my pleasure to a humble servant,[ and not in a western definition ].
And I thank you for the gift of your time.
=)
Okay, hugs 102..............................

What you say makes sense Real.
I have tried learning on my own, and you can only get so far. You can not teach yourself what you do not know. I spent enough years banging my head; it took someone like Real to help me grow. I asked for Elders for years, and looked, and looked. They are not that easy to find. But I got lucky. Now, I see what it is I need, and kick myself for not being able to see it myself. It is so simple, and yet so complicated. I know that sounds contradictory, but it is true.
Such is life and irony.
I am loving every second. Even though my growth has been painful; and I am not done. It is all so delicious and I don't want to go back to not knowing what I do know now. It has made an impact on my life for the better. Also, the elders saved me from bumping my head many times, but let me bump it where I needed to,lol.
So, yes, you need elders and guidance. Society is falling apart with a me, me, me syndrome. So much they have forgotten in selfish superficial endeavors of materialism. Oh, and trying to understand their spirit with their mind. That will throw you on a serious curve.

I think that we're the fallen angels, if thats what we choose, we're God, we are Satan. If anything comes after life, it's probably because of what we believed and wanted while we were here.

Realthing, thanks for the reply.

The honor and pleasure were all mine.
For if I can be a humble messenger and a medicine to others,
[ no matter the realm ], then my bliss is elevated beyond ordinary kind.
It gives me unmeasurable fulfillment to bring joy and light to my brothers and sisters.
=)
Thank you for putting a smile on my face.
HUGS YA

"sigh" as what I think, Lucifer is not who he is anymore. As the bible states he was bound to stay on earth, either on earth its self or under it. No one knows exactly where. Although as I have learned he has taken a human form and has started on what everyone calls the end of the world. When he is awakened, truly awakened then he will take on his normal form, the form of a fallen angel. The times have come and it begins.

No one can cut from pain and sadly emotions and no one can cut from the materialistic pleasures in the living life. even though only high class yogis which cut from human colonies and passes the time in aloneness in meditation did gain this state of cut from heaven and hell and i think this nature carries after the death too in the form of active conscious in the line of meditation. this is the key importance of meditations of finding supreme self.

These peepal includes Jesus and Buddha