I finished reading a book about Macabru, a troubadour living around 1130-49 and his quest for the "perfect poem" as well as insight into "fin amors".
I was very intrigued by "fin amors" or the idea of an idealized love that was also called "courtly love". The effect was basically that a man would love a woman with no physical contact. This love could be from a great distance and seemed to burn so deeply that a man would go to any lengths to please his object of "fin amors", even dying.
What I wondered as I read this book was how the love a person sometimes feels for a vampiric figure might fit into this idea of "fin amors". Or maybe vice-versa. It is my perception that on both sides, there is often written about this "love" that is seemingly unfounded and not acted upon as in a regular type of romance.
But this love usually ends up with the person being bitten by the vampire in sometimes a passionate scence. So what I see if a "death" of sorts coming out of a "fin amors".
The person dies for this love, that is not a love as between two married persons. It is an ideal, something lofty and almost worshipped. Only death seems to make the end ok.
And from the vampire's point of view, he desires the "fin amors", but in the end cannot uphold this "perfect love" and must make a bond of blood instead.
I do not feign myself a scholar, but this is just something that seemingly is connected. I have read a lot of what others out there post, and know that maybe someone else can find a better way to express that connection or to discount my idea entirely.
I humbly throw my opinion to the wind and hope that wisdom shall return to me....
the book sounds interesting but the vampyric aspect aside, that kind of life is quite common nowadays. how many people fall in love with each other without touching one another? catchword online romances?
that is a great insight! one which i have been caught in myself a time or two;)
Great thread... I had discussed this very topic with a friend of mine regarding modern relationships.
I think this is full of ideas that many desire, but are afraid to "hold out" for in our current lifestyle of bigger, faster, funnier (theatre ref for those who don't know).
The ideals of courtship, and fin amours are actually what I prefer. Now I don't mean NEVER for the physical- I'm not dead- but to allow a relationship to grow, and from there to be more than just the lust and gratification (although there are times...).
The one relationship that really changed me, and my perceptions was one of fin amours. I am so very thankful for it as it made me aware of bad situations before they consumed me. While it was very painful to be close intimate friends with an individual that I could not be with, as our lives were going in different directions, wrong timing, age, etc, the respect and love shared between us is something I still hold dear. And this has also made it difficult for me, as I will not settle for less than what we shared. I deserve the attention, respect, love and friendship in my life partner.
As to the relationship of this to vampires, I think that is the beauty of this kind of relationship- the tension. Where it takes you, how it changes you. Feeling that you are inside out… and not caring. Many of the vampire books I have read have given this aspect of desire to vampire lore, which can in someway be a link of our embracing our darker side. There is so much more, and I look forward to reading others thoughts….
lol it just was the first thing that popped into my mind lol
I think you are spot on with that lordvampirio! LOL
Although I find the internet romance doesn't quite get there (this is my personal experience) as usually the guys meet me and are like, " you're a little intense" LOL... OH well... I'll just wait for my next fin amour to find me
;-)
sahahria, i think you really hit a strong point when you said your fin amors relationship was "painful" when you were so close but there was still a barrier
i agree with you that fin amors is a really great way to start a relationship...i think that so much is overcome when not giving into the physical gratification at the very beginning
in looking at my many failed relationships, i know that i succumb to the physical very quickly, much in part to a poor self-concept...these loves never last and i am again alone and searching
my fin amors was with a swedish man over icq, phone calls, and snail mail about 7 years ago...it ended without us ever even meeting, but to this day we have contact and can pick up the "feelings" after all this time
i'm glad the thread is producing such good thoughts!
I personally think it's the dream that motivates us to move to fast. While at the moment it's a wonderful feeling- later it just does not satisfy.
I actually am relating this more to every part of my life- I don't train a month for a race I wish to win~ why do I think that a life partner will occur in less time? It's the pain of training, learning more about yourself that I really think allows us to get closer to others... and often it involves LOTS of pain...
Hell, maybe I'm just a sadist ;-)
NIcely written Ileyn, it will be good to see the replies on this one :) Maybe some of the Vampire Masters or Elders here may have some input or ideas on this..
The book is: James Cowan: A Troubadour's Testament
although I know there is much more out there specifically about fin amors
indeed the're are, but i don't know how to type they're titles.
I should go to the local library and search for them, we have a wonderful library where i am, filled with many rare and interesting books.
*sigh*
funny...it reminds me of people who have fallen in love by letter, by phone, and certainly by the net who think and feel and believe it to be the greatest love affair of their lives, yet never meet...
Actaully RedQueen, I worked in summer camp for 3months with mine-everyday I saw him from 7am-to 11pm lights out... Weekends we'd go camping. Long distance would have been far kinder in my view.
This IS a good topic for a thread. I understand what you are saying. I have a fin amor of my own. I may not have the pleasure of a committed relationship, right now, but my life is complete knowing that there is someone in the world I can share a beautiful love with. Can an ideal love really exist out in the "real world" or does the real world exist in our hearts?
Being vampyre, I have met her in dreams and visions. Simultaneously, we have been together in open fields, on boats in the open sea, in darkened gardens, in worlds where the sun is blotted out.......fantasies???? Perhaps, but the love between us is real and isn't that what really matters?
Some people fall in love with an idea of what they want in a person,not always with the actual person.I know afew people that feel in love with someone online,then met them in persoan and hated each other.Love is a strong word and emotion,to say I love you is easy,but not always from the heart.
I've experienced this my whole life. It is the bitter sweet taste, that keeps us coming back for more. It is almost a masochistic tendency. It's wonderful and painful, and don't think for one minute, impossible.
Ok, again I have to say.. no more non-responsive posts please. If you havent read it, then you don't have to make that submission in public. Add to a thread please in discussing the book, rather than posting just for the sake of posting!
this was a great post...i never thought of it like that..and also for whoever compared it to online romances, that is so true...well written...
Vampirio has a point, as we all distance ourselves for one another, love can often become more distanced also.
I don't know if they idea of a vampire preying would really be this "fin amors" or whether it would be a state of self dillusion. It's quite har to differenciate between the two, especially when over a period of time.
fin amours or as you say courtly love did not exist as such before the Christain Crusades. Thus the idea is rather new as distance can be breached with a stroke of a pen and an over night delivery or the touch of a keyboar and a send command.
I do not see it as having much if any relation to vampirism myself. More of those lovers that need the distance to fuel the illusions of his or her other out there. Reality of being with another person day in and day out is quite difficult even with a soul mate. But, for those seperated by distance only the best may be shown to another. The heart ache and worry of survival itself can be cloaked in the finery of a chosen word.
the Sidhe
I think searching for a perfect poem is ridiculous. Is it some sort of unattainable (therefore meaningless) Platonian form?
I've always though courtly love was sexist. I don't quite understand the analogy you're attempting to draw to vampirism, but I can see similarity in the figure of a vampire who abstains from killing or feeding out of love for humanity.
it does sound like it could be a little vampiric but with the internet these days and poeple marrying people they have never even seen there is no telling
Im seeing also a line fitting with 'love' that seems to occur between two persons upon sight of each other - not the love at first sight thing.. but a certain bonding that may occur.. as though one may read and feel what the other is feeling - but the physical bonding doesnt occur as both are leading lives of their own.. What do you think?
I like this thread.
I am going through this "fin amors" as we speak, I love this person yet he does not love me. As for the Vampire connection, i believe that is why we are so attracted to the vampire, cause we know we can't have it, like any other mythological creature.
interesting... might have to pick up that book once i finish the two i'm working on now.
that sounds really cool i think i might make yet another trip to the bookstore
I have experienced fin amor myself...
It was the most beautiful, emotional thing I've ever been through.
I still feel a strong bond and love to this someone... And I am sorry to have lost it.
We shared something extremely deep, the loss of that has left an emptiness inside me... And the thought of that it might never get stimulated again really hurts me.
I want that kind of deep relationship, love, respect...
The most beautiful thing about it was that we could feel our love so strongly even from a distance, and we were satisfied with what we had... a physical relationship wasn't necessary.
Although I have moved on I still miss it... and I wish that I could have it again, to have it last forever.
*sigh*
I'm with Bloodrose on this one. I've had that feeling as well.
I still think of the person often, but in my case, that person is no longer in flesh.
my two cents (and only on part of it):
love is painfull, true love even more so.
but this isn't only with love. everything in life must be balanced. for us to experience true pleasure, it must be combined with true pain.
what was the name of this book? it sounds very much like the kind of love mentioned between vampires and humans in many novels, movies, etc..and I do agree with you that getting bitten would result in a "death" of the other to be with his or her love. I would love to read the book your speak of!
Courtly love is not truly equated with unrequited love.
The "courtly love" relationship is modelled on the feudal relationship between a knight and his lord, and is therefore a structured system of admiration and affection. The knight, owing all to his lord, was expected to also admire and "love" his lord's lady. The lady possessed all authority and control in the "courlty love" relationship, and this love was supposed to inspire the knight to great deeds.
This type of love was idealized in Troubadour poetry, which was brought to the English courts by Eleanor of Aquitaine. The poems that were written for or dedicated to her placed an emphasis on the love a knight would have for his Queen.
Siobhan,
Thank you for your informative post. It is correct. Perhaps I shall expand upon it, although I am certain the Masters and Elders are far more qualified.
The notion of courtly love really has no modern counterpart. Additionally, it was rooted in an attempt to challenge contemporary Christian ideals of the time.
To wit:
Chivalric or Courtly Love (known in medieval France as "fine love" or fin amour) originated with the so-called troubadours of the late eleventh century. Promoting a suave new form of paganism which they called Gai Saber (literally, "the happy wisdom" or "gay science"), these colorful figures from the Provence region of southern France effectively challenged and sought to redefine traditional Christian ideals of love, marriage, manhood, virtue, and femininity. Under the sponsorship of powerful nobles like Eleanor of Aquitaine and Marie de Champagne, their influence gradually spread throughout France and eventually into England and Germany. By the middle of the 13th century, the troubadour philosophy had become practically institutionalized throughout the courts of Europe, and "fine love" had become the basis for a glamorous and exciting new style of life.
What is Courtly Love?
Properly applied, the phrase l'amour courtois identified an extravagantly artificial and stylized relationship--a forbidden affair that was characterized by five main attributes. In essence, the relationship was
Aristocratic. As its name implies, courtly love was practiced by noble lords and ladies; its proper milieu was the royal palace or court.
Ritualistic. Couples engaged in a courtly relationship conventionally exchanged gifts and tokens of their affair. The lady was wooed according to elaborate conventions of etiquette (cf. "courtship" and "courtesy") and was the constant recipient of songs, poems, bouquets, sweet favors, and ceremonial gestures. For all these gentle and painstaking attentions on the part of her lover, she need only return a short hint of approval, a mere shadow of affection. After all, she was the exalted domina--the commanding "mistress" of the affair; he was but her servus--a lowly but faithful servant.
Secret. Courtly lovers were pledged to strict secrecy. The foundation for their affair--indeed the source of its special aura and electricity--was that the rest of the world (except for a few confidantes or go-betweens) was excluded. In effect, the lovers composed a universe unto themselves--a special world with its own places (e.g., the secret rendezvous), rules, codes, and commandments.
Adulterous. "Fine love"--almost by definition--was extramarital. Indeed one of its principle attractions was that it offered an escape from the dull routines and boring confinements of noble marriage (which was typically little more than a political or economic alliance for the purpose of producing royal offspring). The troubadours themselves scoffed at marriage, regarding it as a glorified religious swindle. In its place they exalted their own ideal of a disciplined and decorous carnal relationship whose ultimate objective was not crude physical satisfaction, but a sublime and sensual intimacy.
Literary. Before it established itself as a popular real-life activity, courtly love first gained attention as a subject and theme in imaginative literature. Ardent knights, that is to say, and their passionately adored ladies were already popular figures in song and fable before they began spawning a host of real-life imitators in the palace halls and boudoirs of medieval Europe. (Note: Even the word "romance"--from Old French romanz--began life as the name for a narrative poem about chivalric heroes. Only later was the term applied to the distinctive love relationship commonly featured in such poems.)
(From a DePaul University study that all may consult)
Note especially that the term romance ORIGINALLY applied to tales of the great deeds of heroes and only LATER to so called romantic love. Prime examples are The Song of Roland and the Arthurian legend as told by Chretien de Troyes who introduced "fin amour" into the Arthurian saga.
So, what WAS the relationship? We find it dates back to Ovid and was based upon the notion that love was a from a sickness that was treated by a rigidly proscribed proceedure.
So:
The "courtly love" relationship typically was not between husband and wife, not because the poets and the audience were inherently immoral, but because it was an idealized sort of relationship that could not exist within the context of "real life" medieval marriages. In the middle ages, marriages amongst the nobility were typically based on practical and dynastic concerns rather than on love. The idea that a marriage could be based on love (as in the "Franklin's Tale") was a radical notion. But the audience for romance was perfectly aware that these romances were fictions, not models for actual behavior. The adulterous aspect that bothers many 20th-century readers was somewhat beside the point, which was to explore the potential influence of love on human behavior.
Social historians such as Eric Köhler and Georges Duby have hypothesized that "courtly love" may have served a useful social purpose: providing a model of behavior for a class of unmarried young men that might otherwise have threatened social stability. Knights were typically younger brothers without land of their own (hence unable to support a wife) who became members of the household of the feudal lords whom they served. One reason why the lady in the courtly love relationship is typically older, married and of higher social status than the knight may be because she was modelled on the wife of the feudal lord, who might naturally become the focus of the young, unmarried knights' desire. Köhler and Duby posit that the literary model of the courtly love relationship may have been invented in part to provide these young men with a model for appropriate behavior, teaching them to sublimate their desires and to channel their energy into socially useful behavior (love service rather than wandering around the countryside, stealing or raping women like the knight in the "Wife of Bath's" tale).
The behavior of the knight and lady in love was drawn partly from troubadour poetry and partly from a set of literary conventions derived from the Latin poet Ovid, who described the "symptoms" of love as if it were a sickness. The "lovesick" knight became a conventional figure in medieval romance. Typical symptoms: sighing, turning pale, turning red, fever, inability to sleep, eat or drink. Romances often contained long interior monologues in which the lovers describe their feelings.
Biblio. from Here
I hope my meagre post has helped to a greater understanding and it is my wish that our Masters and Elders will approve.
Remember, as the Wife of Bath's broach said: "Amor omnia vincit"
how nice to think of courtship being spoken of again...and I agree there is no modern counterpart...
In my experience I had one of the best relationships with a man I never had physical contact with. It could notoccur because I was working with him as a healer. When he was very sick and so in the process of him getting better....so many things occured, but my professional level and the circumstances besides that were not favorable. However I learned so much about relationships. There was courtship, flirtation in great ways, humanity, tenderness, honesty, baring of the soul and simple acceptance of life and time and our very own unique seperate paths. There was Much respect a high High level of respect for the other's path and the other's existance. It was something that changed me and blessed me for life. There was no power struggle because we saw there was no need for one...it was just very nice to surrender to it...and smile...In healing by the way, he did get better but finally not because of me...because of his own very powerful inner strength...I however walkedaway and found it too difficult to continue with his process. So perhaps I got more out of the relationship as a healer than I anticipated.
well i have been in a relationship where i fell in love with someone whom i could only talk to and if i ever did see him it was only years at a time (he was a marine) and i had knew him before but had only had feelings for him when he went away... well mayb i wasnt in love with him but i had really strong feelings for this person... anyways it didnt really work out in the end, he came home for a while and turned out to be a completely different person... well.. in person... It was kind of hard for me to understand the huge contrast in him, he had seemed so wonderful and genuine and lovely but when it came down to living up to his word and really showing his "true" feelings, he fell short, and my theory is that it is actually very simple to fall in love with an idea of something or someone, but in reality it is just an idea... In my opinion, you can be in love with a person without physical contact, but i believe true love cannot be defined without being around the person if only for a little while, even if no physical contact is involved. I actually think that no physical contact is better because then you can be sure that the love is not based off of affection but it is a true love of the person themselves...
I've had a relationship with a couple of people over the Internet. Some we ended up meeting... others we didn't for one reason or another. I wouldn't take any of it back simply because through the pain and struggle, I learned a lot about myself. Things that I'm sure I'll take with me until I'm gone.
At a certain point, a person's got to jump off the cliff, even if it means smashing into the rocks beneath. It's painful but neccessary for personal growth.
i dont believe it has to apply to just vampyres but those who are not. true love doesnt have to involve being physical with someone yet i do believe that you have to be in contatc with someone in a physical form, to see how they interact, how they are in situations before you can truly be in love
That sounds very interesting. LOL...Now I need to go pick up a copy. Thanks for the info. :)
I am also with Bloodrose on this one....
and I would enjoy reading this book..
Its true, you can fall in love with a person without touching, so deeply in love that you are willing to die for that person and even die if you lose the one you love, it happen to me so I know what I'M talking about
i think i need to read the book in order to understand completely what you are talking about