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Three people died in a crowded sweat box. It is being investigated as a homicide. They paid 3000 for the retreat, is this a questionable operation? Why? Are the operators concerned with these peoples enlightenment, or the bottom line? What would you say to a friend, or family member that plans to enroll in this type of retreat?


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In Sadonna, Arizona a popular self help guru holds retreats. A sweat box is an attempt at a sweat lodge ( a native practice) this was a much larger one built with no regard to tradition, 18 people got sick, and three died. Tribes are speaking out against the way this operation was run ( and rightfully so, i personally feel.) sorry I cannot link from Ipod.

To charge sooo much for "enlightment"..it makes me question their motives.

The humans race tend to "look" for different avenue into a spiritual source. These people pay with their life, to satisfy their believe in a "what if". Cases like this one, happen all over the world, but only come into the news, when someone die.

Yes, James Arthur Ray ran the retreat. He was one of those featured in The Secret. He himself has put out several books the most recent being Harmonic Wealth. Claims to have traveled the world in search of........

My problem with the Law of Attraction guys is that all of them are selling something. Yeah, buying a book for $25.00 isn't to risky BUT shelling out thousands of dollars on one of these retreats is something else. Of course, it is their money and they can spend it anyway they like. I just wonder how many max out a credit card to do it.

Another point about these LOA guys is that they all promote one another's books, courses, etc. One could go broke purchasing all of the crappola.

What happened in the sweat lodge appears unintentional. Not to mention waivers were signed I'm sure. The only way charges could probably be brought is if the ceremony went beyond what the particiapants had in mind or if the participants tried to exit and were stopped THEN someone will have a big problem.

One last point, I actually believe there is something to law of attraction. Focus, Intensity, unwaivering belief and action can get one results.

When the price was announced of how many thousands of dollars per person, if I am not mistaken it was nine-
thousand.
I agree to put a price on any type of Spirituality is greed

I guess he atrracted the money to him....and now he has attracted negative karma to himself..

Its very dangerous if spirituality takes commercialization coz it does not remain spiritual any more then and

the peepal goes against nature and science, they surely to harm themselves, coz they are not supernatural. only supernatural can srvive against nature and its science.

there would be less "saying" and more smacking them upside their head until they come to their senses

Mr rays operation has the scent of a cult. He takes advantage of the desire people have to socialize with people of like idealism. At its core nothing is wrong with such a desire. I have attended retreats through churches. Alternatives are available though, group rates are presented by lodges, and per member utility cost are arranged, along with a fee that may pay modest expenses for a booked speaker. Such retreats create social opportunity to bond with those affiliated through organizations. The line is crossed when aggressive tact is employed, or grandiose implications are made to potential consumers. The play on the expectation of people is a heinous practice. Example, the bankrupt estate guy, that got stuck with worthless property. He arranged a time share account, and then baited punters to " witness UFO phenomena" at a "prime location". He eventually was exposed by Art Bell. Confidence artist call the practice flock fleecing. I would tell friends to invest nothing over travel, lodging fees,and a modest guest speaker, entertainer, or host fee. Exercise inquiry. Are all guest paying? Will there be hidden cost? What is included in cost? What is not included. Everyone has gotten the mailer for " a free" enrichment seminar, with small print , lodging extra. A 20 20 investigation found a group just plagiarized " how to win friends and influence people" for a weekend seminar. They pitched a 20 page "Network. Source" book for $75 that they promised would boost ones financial affairs. The info was available to the public. To hustle people through their expectation of easy money is one thing. To pervert that hustle with spiritual implications is heinously corrupt.

Three people died in a crowded sweat box. (This is a non-traditional "sweat lodge") It is being investigated as a homicide. (GOOD!) They paid $3000 for the retreat, is this a questionable operation? Why? (Yes, the charge is way too high. You could get the same results at a sauna for far less cost.)
Are the operators concerned with these peoples' enlightenment, or the bottom line? (Obviously, the bottom line.) What would you say to a friend, or family member that plans to enroll in this type of retreat ? (Go to the sauna at a gym, instead.)

leoderloewe

And here we have an update today. Perhaps Ray pushed people to far

AP Newsbreak: 1st sweat lodge survivor speaks out
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Delicious Digg Facebook Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Twitter Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – This Sept. 2007 picture picture provided by Rev. Meredith Ann Murray shows her with James Arthur Ray …
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Play Video Video:Third person dies in sweat lodge case AP .
By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 33 mins ago
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – A woman who took part in an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony tells The Associated Press that the spiritual guru who led the event pushed participants too far in what was supposed to be a life-expanding experience that culminated with people vomiting and passing out on the floor.

Texas resident Beverley Bunn is the first participant in the tragic incident to speak out publicly about the events that led up to the deaths. The 43-year-old tells the AP that by the time the sweat lodge ceremony began, the participants had undergone days of physically and mentally strenuous events that included fasting. In one game, guru James Arthur Ray even played God.

Within an hour of entering the sweat lodge, people began vomiting, gasping for air and collapsing. Yet Bunn says Ray continually urged everyone to stay inside. The ceremony was broken up into 15-minute "rounds," with the entrance flap to the lodge opened briefly and more heated rocks brought inside between sessions.

"I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up," Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: "Leave her alone, she'll be dealt with in the next round."

By that time, Bunn had already crawled to a spot near the opening of the sweat lodge, praying for the door to stay open as long as possible between rounds so that she could breathe in fresh air.

At one point, someone lifted up the back of the tent, shining light in the otherwise pitch-black enclosure. Ray demanded to know who was letting the light in and was committing a "sacrilegious act," Bunn said.

Investigators are considering bringing charges in a case that has cast a harsh spotlight on Ray, a millionaire self-help guru who led dozens of people into the sweat lodge during a five-day retreat that cost more than $9,000. He has hired his own investigative team to try to determine what went wrong.

Ray led the group in chants and prayers during the ceremony, Bunn said. People were not physically forced to stay inside but chided by Ray if they wanted to leave as he told them they were stronger than their bodies and weakness could be overcome.

Bunn lasted the entire two hours, but nearly two dozen others suffered serious injuries that sent them to the hospital.

Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, died upon arrival at a hospital. Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake, Minn., lingered in a coma for more than a week before dying.

Sheriff's investigators in Arizona's Yavapai County are treating the deaths as homicides but have yet to determine the cause.

Investigators are looking into the construction of the sweat lodge, the fact that people had fallen ill at previous sweat ceremonies led by Ray and questionable medical care on site as they try to determine whether criminal negligence contributed to the deaths and illnesses.

Authorities have said a nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived. Ray is the primary focus of the probe but others also are being investigated, Sheriff Steve Waugh has said.

"I too want to know what happened that caused this horrible tragedy," Ray wrote on his Web site Tuesday.

He vowed to continue with his work.

"I have taken heat for that decision, but if I choose to lock myself in my home, I am sure I would be criticized for hiding and not practicing what I preach," he wrote.

Commercial and Spirituality...

I didn't know those words would go in the same sentence without PTL in there somewhere.

Sedona draws all kinds of people but from what the article said, she had known this man for many years and had worked to help him for quite sometime. It seems that this could have been avoided but it wasn't necessarily Ray from what is inferred but people working for him that set it all up. It sounds like he is just the front man. He is out to make money or he wouldn't be charging these high prices.

Spiritualists and others frown on this and consider it an abuse of power and very wrong. They don't think it is bad to make money but not outrageous amounts like this. The article from the link said:

participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend.

This is how Reiki was initially. The first level was pretty low and then the next two were like $10,000 to be taught and it went up from there and it was considered a secret knowledge. It is for this very reason I avoided it and still do even though most don't charge this since the 80s. There are all sorts of people in Sedona and it is just a spiritual place so no one who hosts things is investigated. Seems he deals with large numbers of people. With those odds something is bound to happen. I think they should leave Native American traditions to the Native Americans or at least have them co-sponsor them if they are willing so they are done safely and sanely.

This isn't representative of the spiritual community as a group. This is representative of what appears to be one man's greed. I yet have read his side of the story, but it doesn't sound like they were too careful. I would think with this type of activity I would suggest that each attendee supply a health certification that they were able to withstand this sort of activity physically. He took a big chance and it backfired and from what I read it wasn't the first time.

There is nothing wrong with paying a fee to someone for knowledge about their views of spirituality but some common sense has to be shown. This Ray has assistants (those bringing in the hot rocks and the one's keeping the door closed) they are all culpable in the deaths of these 3 people, especially after they lost consciousness and others called for help and it was promised but not given.

It's a crime pure and simple and faith or spirituality cannot excuse it.

The people in charge of the resort are guilty of negligent homicide in my opinion. When spending extended time in a sweat box certain things must done. Among them continued hydration, consumption of salt and potassium tablets and every participant should have a full physical by a licensed doctor before even attempting such a feat. It is exhausting and depletes the body's resources.
Other high priced religions practice a similar ritual to cleanse and purify the body as do some much less expensive tribal organizations.
As to the commercialization of religion? Name one that isn't. Name a religion that isn't publicized and capitalized on. This includes the requirements of certain ritual items and/or educational religious texts.

negligent homicide= manslaughter

Any guru or spiritual leader laying a claim to a one-time/ once-for-all lifetime changing event is probably in it for the money. I wouldn't pay for that. Then again I'm not spiritually desperate either.

Lots of people are desperate and lots of people get taken advantage of monetarily. Then you have high profile cases where someone loses their life in the process. Disgusting all around if you ask me.

Very well stated moonkissed but I have to agree with Nightgame as well. People have to be responsible for themselves. Having faith is one thing, being to lazy to think for yourself is another.

As well, tolerating a persons belief, is one thing, when their practices deviate into harmful or exploitive the "boom needs to be lowered" example France just got the CoS (church of Scientoligy) in a Fraud rackett. They are scream religious Persacution.. ?!? Slowly the hands off, and kid glove approach to confronting those who promote themselves as " Religion" or Spirituality and exploit, or harm others is reversing. When those with moderate faith step up and police their fundamentalist, and extremist.. I am encouraged. The Idea that some of these operations "bucket", or "package deal" so many various beliefs, and practices ( the popular ones) is telling. They are competing in an ever growing market. I have always found that those with a community (however small) to be less drawn to those who abuse adherents, and seekers.

Fundamentally any religion is a capitalist racket. Designed to reign in followers, sell books and paraphernalia and not above extortion(tithes). They all promote the same sort of bigotry and violence in the name of the deity of choice. All religions had to be invented in order to be followed. CoS gets picked on a lot because of the radical views of the Org and the high cost attached to the practice. They were used as an example which is why I mention them.
(Hi dabbler)
I personally stay away from all religions and follow common sense instead.

Thx Moon Kiss, People are afraid to be critical of the actions , and practices of their faith, especially when they have invested to an extensive degree. The main motive for cons using religious, metaphysics as a marketing hitch is the tax free loophole they can attempt to acheve.) as well as the lax consumer protection, sadly people exploited have limited recourse against those who operate under pretense of said.

This is true but I think there is more.
People will pay unheard of amounts of money in order to be "saved". I was unaware that the Kingdom of Heaven charged rent, LOL. Who knew?
Fear is religions biggest marketing tool, they say it is hope but it is fear. For 10% of your income you too can be saved. Not all religious accessories cost money, some of them come with communion or baptism but to have the really cool stuff it will cost you.
I find it funny that the Christians read a book which states it's followers should worship no images or idols nor create them, yet they must have images of of the crucifix, the praying hands, statues of the mother. Why do they ignore the passages? Market value.
Wicca, it's a natural religion whose followers spend thousands and thousands of dollars a year on herbs, crystals, sticks(wands ok), ritual clothing, candles...the list goes on. Why do they need props or herbs other than those in their cupboards? Money.
Every religion has something.

i think greed clouded his judgment

i have a very gifted friend who does tarot reading at a shop around here, she only accepts donations for her knowledge

Faith cost nothing.. persay.. false affirmations can be bought, one only need lack in faith, faith being belief without
evidence. The competetive nature in some is driven by one- up- manship. Their are many faiths, and philosophies, some will discuss those with others, others want to appear to be more rational then the next.. so to say.. or imply that "your belief is more "supported" then that of another.. becomes a convoluted Pious Performance. Some wear their beliefs on their sleeve, they draw "fire", others are content without gimmicks, and seminars, or retreats. Yet the factions among them are consistently touting sensational testimony. I have seen the practice that Spiritualist use to book retreats, 75% of those at some of those retreats pay the flat rate for lodging, and dining. the 25% pay much more. A portion of the 75
% is made up of "Preferenced guest" or family of publisist, or shills. Very cult like.