Survival of the fittest. Its a great idea to some and others cringe at the thought. Personally, i think its a practice that should be observed and enforced. discuss
When boiled down to its least common denominator where Humans are concerned, Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" simply equates to the inherently self-destructive and historically proven false political philosophy of: "Might makes Right."
Hitler, Pol-Pot, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, and countless others through history have likewise used this same truly evil philosophy to not only justify but glorify every imaginable atrocity known to Humankind.
And this is what you are claiming ought to be "enforced" upon all of us? So also thought those same despots and mass murderers; you're in good company. ;)
While such a system appears to work in the animal kingdom, yet for Humankind... such a philosophy of selfishness ultimately and inexorably results in our own self-destruction, both individually and collectively.
But... you are correct in stating that this is exactly how Darwinism claims things actually are in all of Nature and the Universe, ... which, given how inherently destructive such a philosophy has always been where Humankind is concerned, is one of the myriad key evidences for its being patently false.
- Upir'
But if there is always someone stronger than the highest power then everything would always be rebuilt as is human nature. We as humans tend to come together and do more when faced with adversity and wouldnt the enforcement be benevolent to the future of the human race by allowing only the strongest to survive? Spartans had a good concept, make them work for the right to live at a young age...
If only the strong survive than the human race will be beaten by the animal kingdom.Humans have become lazy,self absorbed techno wienies.Who would rather play games and talk to other humans through texting and use tech to live their lives and do all the work.Americans are the in 1st place when it comes to relying on others to do the work and sit back and live off the spoils of it.
Man can no longer work long hard hours in the fields and use the muscles they have to do such work.
Anyhow that is my take on the term "survival of the fittest."
I agree to an extent on Upir take on this, it is a primitive way to suspend on given that it was exclusively intended to explain the natural mechanism on lower conscient beings which works on a designed chain, we on the other way have reasoning to find ways to tame that primitive side we all have, I guess most people just don't acknowledge it. Then again is not about who is the fittest in modern time, more like who is the one with better toys.
And to expand other subjects within this thread, technology is what can really mature that primitive side that still lingers in humanity, as new revelations and scientific breakthroughs keep emerging & unfolding the real world out there people will start deviating from those ignorant things that tends to divide us, that in essence are simply idiotic the reasoning behind it. I guess there is no better way to prove it than with the scientific boom and the way we have being fighting socially those racist or sexist issues that have being an old plague to our race in the past centuries.
What is "fit"? I'm 6'1" and 117lbs, I have a physical disability and probably couldn't life 40lbs if my life depended on it. Should I be left to die? I'm not physically fit at all.
On the other hand, I'm pretty damn smart and not in the "I watch PBS" smart either...although I do :P
People are not bound to the rules of evolution as most other species are. We have the power to change it, go around it, speed it up, slow it down, and so on. Because of that we have to look at how we deal with each other in a less black and white way and more of a "what can you do, what's your potential" view. Not based on physical measures but on the whole of each individual.
Very well said Xzavier.
What really does it come to?
"Survival of the fittest."
Body?
Mind?
Spirit?
I have always thought that the role of "chance" plays a vital part in survival. Whether it be of a species, a family or an individual. If an asteriod had not hit the earth 65 million years ago, the dinosaurs would have survived to evolve and adapt to all that has happened since. If a RPG round had hit 30 feet ahead of where it actually landed, I would not have survivied Vietnam.
However, our weasal like, rat sized, pea brained genetic ancestors made it through one of the most hostile climates ever to befall this planet and those large, fairly intelligent monsters did not.
And here we are today. Many of us humans have "survived" to become unfit, obese, selfish predators that capture our prey at the grocery store check out line rather than hunt or gather our food. We should all pray that the majority of scientists are wrong and that global warming will not be the catostorphe for the human race that they now predict it will be.
For if they are correct in their concern, long after I am gone, our grandchildren and great grandchildren will find out how fit they have to be if they are the ones that, by chance, do survive into the next century.
food4thought
Between the dominance of "might makes right" and the selective process that is "survival of the fittest", there is but one flaw... When a global event occurs such as an earthquake, typhoon, hurricane or other natural disaster strikes, all of society quites looking out for the "group" and tends to stick with or to themselves and their immediate family for survival.
In the end, monies are not that important when the "Mad Max Road Warrior" syndrome kicks in. Pure instinct could dictate that to survive, one must rely on themselves, their natural instincts and their immediate most trusted family and or friends for help in that harsh environment.
On another note, due to the "might makes right" scenerio, this seems to happen in all communities and not just within governmental bodies. We see certain societies demonstrating this idealism to its fullest where the "mightiest" or most intelligent individuals, most knowledgeable on any certain subject that pertains to its society or community, creating its heirarchy out of that intelligence quota, thus delivering that "might makes right" scenerio work. It seems to happen all the time. I would base this on a note of psychology for the purpose of pure manipulation of the "fear" factor.
I disagree with you on that idea,partly.
Haiti was hit with an earthquake and the entire or most of the world jumped in to help.Now of course after about a month,the world will go back to fighting of frivolous crap.So in certain times in the world everyone tries to act like one planet of humans helping others instead of many different countries trying to be dominate.
The Haiti scenerio was entirely political, it was basically Katrina all over again. The government did not want to look like the bad guy a second time around, so they told the world that they were going to become completely involved with it.
But, case in point with the Katrina comment, even after a week, things were still not getting done even though camera crews like CNN were on location, the government said they could not get in. Which brings my case in point, that the government will say anything to look good but rarely if ever come out with monies to help in the venture.
Some, when the survival instincts try to kick in, are left with little to nothing and the instincts tell them to panic when the scenerio becomes too dire for even them to counter it with compassion. Mob mentality takes over, this is where riots and looting would come to play their part.
All in all, I think it would be called a "caveman" mentality or sydrome if anything.
There is a fine line between the proletariat and the bourgeois and an even finer line between the bourgeois and the financially elite to be sure, but if it comes down to brawn vs brains in humankind, I believe brawn will prevail-simply because the poor are used to struggle and can adapt to impoverished conditions quicker than a silverspoon. In the humankind vs animalkind, however, brains will always prevail over brawn (or instinct), I believe; although a tiger wouldn't have much trouble besting me in a hand to paw confrontation, if it came to stategy, of course the smarter (even a desperate idiot is smarter than a sabre toothed mountain chicken any day) would prevail. Its not so difficult to outsmart a bear if you overcome your fears and use your head (though I don't suppose that would do much good if you stumbled into a mama bears path on the way to Oz). But you get the point; mankind will always out survive every other living thing, right up to the moment we blow ourselves into oblivion with some super "weapon" or another...
The term itself "survival of the fittest" was actually coined by Herbert Spencer, in response to Charles Darwin's "On the Origin of Species", in which it is said, he drew many parrallels between their mentalities...
Before this phrase, Darwin was referring to it as "natural selection" and upon further delving it can be noted that it was not included until the 5th edition.
In my humble opinion:
Isolating but one of the aspects of Darwin's theory largely takes it out of context, "survival of the fittest" is of a larger theory of evolution, which is as much about adaptability, and "mutation" of species, and brute physical survival.
"better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common inference of "in the best physical shape"
"Natural selection" is far more pertinent to Charles Darwins actual mentality concerning evolution, and survival of species, and is a far more complex and intricate matter.
That is MY take anyway.
I agree Alexandra. Basically, survival of the fittest had to do with who would get to mate and propagate the species. With humans, Everyone gets to do that, even when they shouldn't.
Applied to genetics, it's especially interesting since new research is showing that human chromosomal modifications in response to environmental and/or emotional conditions can have immediate effect, and be passed on to successive generations.
i think that there are alot of strong people and that they don't use there strength and it is those people that i really look up to because i am one of those small people
"And 'Cavemen' are no longer the dominant culture on this planet (though we do still have them and they seem to be doing fine). It's amazing to me how people still think that man can rise up against Mother Nature and raise a fist."
Helloo, it was an analogy for the way the humans seem to act when in survival mode...
But, how do we know that it is mother nature and not the government controlling the weather, ever thought of that? Hmmm, can an organization with enough money and experimenting control global environment changes and if so, then why harm one of the poorest nations on the planet, ie Haiti? I would answer this one with an NWO quote from a stone plaque that reads... "5,000,000 population to be expected in the future" or something along those lines, the man wishes to kill off as much of society as possible for a "utopia" to be created. Over population in their eyes needs to end.
Actually their desire is to limit the population to 500,000,000 not 5 million. Not that important but I just thought I'd say :P
Thanks for the correction ~X~, I knew it had to be a bit higher...
Soulshroude~ you tend to guide all topics to an end world scenarios and Government conspiracies; give them a break hehe, even though Hugo Chavez: the Venezuelan political "leader" was talking about this, He didn't said they control the environment as other entities of advanced civilization working for them could, but Hurricane Katrina wasn't made by anyone to destroy New Orleans, weather they didn't help to the cause and not took engineering precautions prior to an event that was acknowledge in regards of damages is another thing.
As for Haiti, Hugo makes huge accusation of US submarine activity on the faults that could trigger earthquakes, I don't know the veracity of that; but wouldn't be surprise knowing the capabilities and technology in present times. They are keeping the cover over what is happening with the sun's surface and repercussions to earth very well and when it hits everyone will just be surprised of how well can our "survival for the fittest" kicks in when we don't have electricity to run the world as we do, where all our trust in sources like food, water, defense and communication concerns are dependent of that; as well as all the modern utensils and system that works with it that makes our oh so modern lives so difficult to grasp without. So lets see how it all turns; if we have grown mature or remain savages throughout all this trajectory of history.
I would advice you to get a horse.
A video of Hugo's Claims:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9QtZkT8OBQ
"And those dastardly International Bankers in cahoots with Rosicrucians, some Masonic Orders, and the dreaded Illuminati"
*Chuckles* Some Masonic orders? You mean theres more then one?
Being a Mason and being a government official are two differant entities altogether. Most government officials could be masonic, but have no ties at all to the NWO crap. It is the individual, not the order that is involved with those types of agendas.
As far as me going to ride a horse, I only offer suggestive speculation, food for thought since my thinking process seem to be far differant than most on this site, so excuse the hell out of me.
I meant the horse as for everyone to have, in a humorous manner; given that we are going to go in a tough transition that can only be subject of loss like you mentioned in regards of the amount of people they wish/expect to have in the new phase they are planing and that has to happen, the economic crisis is no longer reversible, and they need to establish all this science in the closet that are just getting old by the years, they cannot just one day tell you well we have all this so lets shut off our economic based society cause it will just be hell on earth. So the subtraction of humans is only indication of the new administration reserved for those in power with new toys. I just get pissed because we pay for this fuckers to expand all they want and explore everywhere and they just build their ambitions with our sweats and we get more problems for it collectively, where is the 3 trillions missing? and nobody cares to counter this with the leaders.
Interesting concepts and theorys here.
So if survival of the fitest applies to both man and beast then who inherits the Earth if the Meek are marked to inherit it?
To me it means man shall destory man and animals in all will survive and once again Inherit this earth.
So are WE really the Fitest? Or the Animals?
I am trying very hard to remain a decent human being, and not jump all over your post RomaMarieNightwing.
I mean no personal disrespect, but....REALLY???
There is absolutely nothing I can see, other than a misguided idealism suggesting that the meek shall inherit the earth, and other than biblical references, I can find nothing...(other sources?)
Man IS beast. IMO our mental attributes ARE a physical manifestation of adaption. Whether we will destroy ourselves is another matter.
I think it is a fallacy to place ourselves outside the animal "kingdom." Last time I checked, I was "flesh and blood."
And have many characteristics of an animal.
Regarding the term "the fittest" specifically, for each of us this will conjure varying definitions. I will reiterate that it is in regards to the most efficient adaptation for the current environment.
This is not some MR Universe beefcake competition.
AA -
There is nothing wrong with making the distinction between Humankind and animals; there are enormous differences between the two despite the DNA similarities we share. Thus, while technically we are part of the animal kingdom... yet we are also very very different from all other forms of life in our ability to create and to destroy.
And, given those enormous differences in how we manipulate our environment (for better or worse) and create and destroy on a planetary scale, she makes an extremely valid point that if we keep fighting amongst ourselves in this Darwinian "might-makes-right" pissing contest, then indeed we may end up... extinct. Then, as she accurately stated, only those lower lifeforms that might survive will be all that is left of life on this planet.
That was her point... and I believe it to be a very valid and poignant one.
- Upir'
What, no New Yorkers here? People help each other in disasters only for political reasons? No helping out for the sake of helping? lol. The true natural of people will surface and it ain't animal- ism.
I have heard of the great loss of the world population about ten years ago. It was to be from the third and forth world countries. I didn't believe it could happen, the number was too large and the areas too wide apart. I wasn't told how. I'm not going to explain why. Although it doesn't have anything to do with conspiracy theories.
Whenever I hear the name Darwin I always think about the flat-billed platypus. He didn't do too good on explaining that one to his friends!
Darwin's claim is to the fact that of survival. There is always something out there that will attack and eat the week. It is the food chain.
Look at mankind, even with all our tech and weaponary animals can still attack and kill man, are we the top of the food chain...dont think so. Only thing we are on top of is egos.
I agree to some extent Alexandra Ashes, but really... mankind believes they are indestructable at all ends.
We are rather to smart for our own good.
As UpirLikhyj carefully explains it, we will most likely cause our own extinction out of our own arrogance, and life somehow someway will prevail but we will most likely not be in the picture any longer.
There for when I quoted the phrase from the bible, I simply was stating even thus in our own arrogance as humans we believe it replies to meek humans.
I believe it applies to animals that we have also dominated over and controled, used, devoured, destroyed, etc, etc.
They will once again Inherit the earth from us and prevail.
UpirLikhyj makes extremely valid points and wise points regarding Darwin's Theory.
I value his comments highly.
To say we think we're indestructible on all ends is rather absurd. Most people and governments understand the dangers, it's rogue elements and people who only care about themselves that ignore the reality of our frailty and push on with war etc.
And frankly to think that our demise is a done deal is defeatist in nature and shows a real lack of faith.
Just because things are bad now doesn't mean they'll always be and just because we're having problems doesn't mean we haven't come a long way from where we were in the past.
"Darwin's claim is to the fact that of survival."
Darwins's claims are fact of "EVOLUTION", not survival. He dictated about species evolutionary roles from monkey to homo-erectus.
The "natural selection" fact is what links the "circle of life" effect, but not what his idea was about. Evolution takes place, not out of natural selection because food is the source of all, and in fact we as homo-erectus do feed off of the balance of all the others, but this does NOT put us at the top of the food chain.
Since the balance is the "circle of life", all creatures big and small are the top of the food chain, hence the CIRCLE of life itself. Nothing is at the top since it is an always revolving path.
Survival has little to do with it, if evolution calls for something else to change, then others surrounding it will adapt or die, thus the cycle of evolution and NOT survival is associated.
In a way it is enforced, just differntly than in cave dwelling times and than in the animal kingdom.
Nowadays, survival of the fittest means, go to school, do well, and get into a good college/trade school where you'll continue to work well in order to buy all the necessary things to survive, and attain the proper image for yourself...Ensuring social survival and a nice life.
And if you do well enough, your kids will hopefully follow in your footsteps, only stepping it up a notch.
This is both practiced and enforced. But sometimes one just needs a hand up. If survival of the fittest was all that crossed our minds when we saw a hungry child, we'd be no better than a souless brute. People these days can't be as ruthless as they once were. That kind of mentality isn't taught and instilled any more... Letting the homeless waste away on the roadside just isn't as acceptable as a similar situation would have been at one point in time.
Those are all the thoughts I can articulate and organize coherently at the moment. :)
I am of the opinion, that these differences you speak of between human-kind and animals , ARE direct physical manifestations of adaptation in *human-kind.*
Our mental and cognitive development has allowed us to survive in a world where physically speaking, we may not be at the top of the food chain at all.
Because our particular path and development varies from other animals, only shows that it is specific to us. The development of our species. Other animals have their developmental niches so to speak.
I am an animal, with developed mental capacity, which allows me to be aware, reflect and perceive many things, including the manipulation of my environment.
If there are "pissing" contests going on, I would leave Darwin out of it, where is the correlation? (and interestingly enough resembles the territorial marking habits of other animals.)
You appear very hung up on "might-makes-right", which I am only guessing you are referring to social Darwinism? (which on a side note actually predates Darwin, despite bearing his name.)
"we may end up...extinct."
Any species faces this possiblity, in changing conditions. Though I would say Human-kind thus far has shown capabilities of adaptation.
And depending on the time frame involved, it is a very distinct possibility. I am not quite sure how that is relevant though.
"Letting the homeless waste away on the roadside just isn't as acceptable"
I beg to differ. if they choose to become homeless out of laziness, or being unjustly convicted of being unworthy of housing by the government... Either way, to let them waste away by the road. This is not our problem, but theirs to get off their lazy arses and do something for themselves that may help in their aid.
This is not any quality of Darwin, it is called survival and if those instincts do not kick in, then I say screw those homeless that choose to remain as such.
'Look at mankind, even with all our tech and weaponary animals can still attack and kill man, are we the top of the food chain...dont think so. Only thing we are on top of is egos.'
Umm yes we are the top of the food chain. We kill more animals than animals kill humans each year. And i watched 2 dogs kill a bear, does that make dogs higher on the food chain?
"I beg to differ. if they choose to become homeless out of laziness, or being unjustly convicted of being unworthy of housing by the government... Either way, to let them waste away by the road. This is not our problem, but theirs to get off their lazy arses and do something for themselves that may help in their aid."
Very narrow post; If I can recall the land you have your feet on is not property of any being by natural cause, humans chose to segregate them and authorize over it, you are born into a planet not property of anyone or anything, they as well as anyone who wishes to live in whatever condition have the natural rights to do so, to even say that they are lazy and unadherant to a system is indication of undesired concensus behavior is abnormally flawed and it is something completely bounded by society structure. Have you asked every singular one of the homeless individuals their main reason to choose that to even remount such absolute accusations? I beleive not; I am
sure large of the percent of homeless individuals have reasons beyond laziness or psychological profiles- in a society as currupted as this I'm amazed we don't have civil wars yet. Ignorant reasoning as this is what is keeping this world behind. Maybe if society were to bring a healthy system you wouldn't have a single homeless individual instead of those millions by those boundaries humans set to implement political and religious standards on natural grounds all sides cornered by economic interest something probably flawed for quite some decades now. I guess this can reflect that prime example of what things make us primitive and blinded from healthy reasoning of a proactive situation for the humankind.
Darwin was out to prove that we evolved from animals and that from the start animals have evolved into different directions. This was going against everything that was taught in religon. His ideas where cut to ribbons. But his ideas where sound and justified.
Even today ppl are still fighting against his ideas.
survival of the fittest is a stupid concept. We have gone away from that way of life for a reason. Everybody can put something forward to make life a pleasant and exciting thing.
Everybody was put here for a reason. We have no need to even consider this. If a problem arose when we had to make this sort of decission then possibly. But remember that the fittest may not be the brightest and there will always be someone or something to bring them down.
I actually think that todays problem in living in communities is the fear itself for survival, the dependancy on others to carry the job right in order for the system to work properly, if you are bad at what you are then you have the fear of losing what makes you part of the community and what you can get from it; and if you lose that then you have to take upon other tasks that is not interest for you. The economy based system was efficient in the beginnings because it was the rational movement of the time to create a token that could balance the goods that are exchangeable in order to create a structure of order in the community, before you had the concept of exchanging perhaps "3 apples and 5 breads" for a simple: "shoe repair or a mirror" but when the privatization of interest came in design the tender overcame the exchanging interaction in the past- making it seam as pirate or black-marketing, this happened as well in the lands of the new worlds where plantation use to exchange artifacts for food as well with the indigenous in the colonization of the virgin islands & other parts; where they exchange vast amount of gold for BS like button or mirror or anything new to the natives.
Now this concept of resource based economy is outstanding because of the features of modern technology, you no longer need to breed cows or chicken you can make it possible in a lab, you don't need sun or perfect conditions you can create room conditions for harvesting goods, you don't need energy from natural resources there are marvelous sciences to do so since the 40's-50's (Tesla's approach); and you don't need to sacrifice conformity because you can innovate as you wish when you wish, because is a system of flow and not of interest; the idea that you have to wake up everyday in a fast frequency of life to have that in your head that you need to do something to carry a family forward and the whole survival fear is unnecessary, the focus could be pointed on other things out there to do.
This and as for Darwin's theory, it only served good on a time period, to explain things on natural observation and critical thinking. As diseases were link to vampirism, as in past centuries people thought the Earth was plane, others thought that earth was the center of the universe, as people saw the devil, and as many scientist have been proven wrong by later discoveries and sciences uncovering new tracks.
"Darwin was out to prove that we evolved from animals and that from the start animals have evolved into different directions. This was going against everything that was taught in religon. His ideas where cut to ribbons. But his ideas where sound and justified.
Even today ppl are still fighting against his ideas."
This post shows extreme ignorance and subjective opinion.
Darwin studied and put forth his theory, from a vast amount of study and observation, which was not to "prove that we evolved from animals" but to postulate the evolution of humankind's species of animal.
We ARE an animal. Specifically a mammal.
I would like to know, when his ideas were "cut to ribbons" and by whom they were cut?
(sources please)
People are very much fighting his ideas. And a good majority of these people are ignorant, even to the specifics of their own beliefs.
THANK YOU ALEXANDRA.
nice to see an educated point of view. i just wanted to add that (answering some posts from way back) humans are part of kingdom animalia (thats animals for the less edumacated folks). several philosophers have postulated that not only might the strongest survive, but that only the strongest SHOULD survive.
i actually see the logic to that (but it doesnt explain why i do so much volunteer work for the less fortunate, or why i spent some time as a firefighter/emt).
that said, eliminating 90% of the human population might be a good idea...
just as long as its not me...my family...my friends...people from my community...
ok...ill actually fight to save pretty much anyone.
sad case i am eh? lol
~W~
The way i see it, why help people that dont try to help themselves? Okay helping a kid is one thing but a 35 year old male with no hindrances thats to lazy to work, why bother?
I totally believe in evolution. In this day and age I don't believe that survival of the fittest would even come into play. I don't think someones physical health means more than who they are as a person. We are all supposed to be equal if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe supposed to be equal but we arent. no 2 people are equal.
in a fight to the death, one man wins the other loses. clearly not equal. unless theres a tie lol
Only some people say we're "supposed" to be equal. No person is equal to another in any way other than the value of life and soul. We are all different, I am better than you at many things and you may be better than me at many other things. The same can be said for sexes and races. It's not a wrong or bad thing...it's reality and the sooner society understands this the sooner we can stop freaking out about stupid things like labels and other PC crap.
Some Humans and factions use Military Might to kill and dominate.
It is too bad we are so good at multiplying.
well I agree with Xzavier, we are only equal in the fact we have heart and soul, otherwise we are all our own individual self, execpt for the idiots who follow suit as if they had no brian. sorry not to be insulting or anything just stating an opinion.
Survival of the fittest, well I was taught that is all in how and what you may call teh fittest. I mean some ore more physically fit, others mentally fit and so on..
It is only a good thing for when we need to survive as in being at war, protecting the family or a POW, etc. than is my opinion, that statement does not apply and the ones who uses it to get ahead by stepping and killing the weaker of them for no reason other than to be a Leader or some power hungary person.
Is as also was said selfish, arrognt and just someone I would like to get rid of LOl
Life seeks its way own
Cyanobacteria was living on earth for 2 billion years.
The Earth was on the verge of becoming Ice Globe
then the volcanos opened its warm carbon in the layer of ice and it broke the ice of no oxygen in atmosphere there was no oxygen. that time cyanobacteria was living and discharged oxygen from HCL and many other forms of liquids and gases and led oxygen ran into atmosphere.
This photosynthesis created the platform for living beaing. and the shifting of tectonic plates and flow of water and liquids accidently left the living being from water to land or mud and out of them many survived and many died.
even cyano bacteria which was the origin of living being disappeared from the earth.

see the panoramic view of water containing cyanobacteria

If Upir is correct, then everyone who isn't rich, or not pretty, should give up now.
Man is just an animal, nothing special.
Some are crappy, some good.
But, we have free-will. That is what sets us apart from animal-kind. We can choose to be good.
Funny though. It does make you wonder then why man is dragging this planet into hell in a handbasket!?!
Again, Darwin's theory is not about survival or whether one is rich, pretty or what ever. It is about when ones DNA begins to take a turn toward evolution on the physio level and is ready for the next stage of advancement.
Nuff said...
Notions of being "rich" or "pretty" can be considered perceptional values, and come under the category of "social darwinism", which as I have already stated, in concept actually predate Darwin's own theories, and this is where there is some confusion.
At the time, race was considered a factor, but unlike the term we use now, it was equally a valid statement about "class", social standing than necessarily "ethnicity."
As society has evolved, ethnicity and class have been observed in correlating stereotypes which have gelled the concepts for modern usage.
Concerning "natural selection" one key word:
Adaptation.
As per your post, I percieve "social darwinism" to be "segregation" in a nutshell. Tempered by racism to boot. I see no stimulation for the sake of evolution whether it be social or physical regarding the area your post resonates from.
It was explaining where I perceive the conceptual misunderstanding originated, which your post addressed.
My thoughts on evolution and natural selection do not contest your own.
Cheers.
I did not gather that they did...
I am simply pointing out that Darwin was relating a physical evolution and not one of natural selection. Those creatures of evolution are bound for natural selection since they are part of the "circle of life". But, evolution takes its course whether or not they are part of any type of food chain. Adaptation is only a conduit for physical evolution. The body changes in order to adapt to its environment, ie sprouting wings to fly if the body found it nessessary to do such in order to adapt.
but we adapt our environment to suit ourselves, thereby making ouselves into little gods.
we ruin and destroy, as we adapt.
reverse Darwinism, perchance?
Could be, but I like to view it as the way of the human locust. Not that humans are deified, this would give them way to much credit. Money corrupts, humans destroy in order to build, but this has nothing to do with darwin's theory or a reversal thereof.
Darwin's theory relates to the Gene pool and its adaptation to the environment, reverse that and you have something that can neither adapt, nor overcome. humans are completely capable of overcoming anything within their paths. So your suggested thought is bit moot.
I guess the problems in humans is merely an issue of Sociological-epistemological paradigms failure; we feed the brain to much unnecessary crap since day one on this place to even remount on "social darwinism vs survival of the fittest" discussion, nothing to do with evolution. We have our animal side like many have addressed here in regards of biological standards; and then: we have the motor capability to control it and understand it with reasoning and its methodologies, so parting from that- we are the very contradiction of Darwin's posture if you contrast the argument in both directions: animalistic posture or human as a different classification by cognitive capabilities in the classification of species (It has others variable which deviates from the subject to discuss here), but all in all its about psychologic gestalt, how everyone sees this whole Darwin issue, to credit or discredit his "laws/theories".
To summarize it more, The human is predictable because the social programming have set parameters of how life works. One you set limits on a cognitive entity, then there is no survival of the fittest, the retained knowledge all the sudden becomes the strongest and fittest, and the limited becomes the weak and directed. All in all is called controlled, and could be made from human to human so is not naturally account as "NATURE" playing role of "how many Africans die tonight for not having a better system that provide resources, than the amount of Americans die for having a better constructed system"- all in all it is not natural geographical positions that make this happen; but that of intelligent design/mastery again by sociological-epistemological paradigm and how the cognitive consensus work; just as _Angelus said: that we are treating ourselves as deities so to speak and being bad at it, unless you believe on other super/supra natural beings and dimensions to even remount of higher scale of nomenclature of how/what natural occurrences is/works, in regards of playing a role in nature which is why the debate with fundamentalist vs Darwinism have being around for quit some time now.
'someone' missed the point, WE have altered the gene pool with our intervention and continued adaption: that is contrary to Dawin's work.
Angelus -
"If Upir is correct, then everyone who isn't rich, or not pretty, should give up now.
Man is just an animal, nothing special."
No... you have yet again misunderstood my clearly written words.
You are not disagreeing with me; intsead, you are disagreeing with Darwin, which is exactly what I was doing also.
My point was that If Darwin were correct, "...then everyone who isn't rich or pretty should just give up."
It was Darwin, not me, who argued for "natural selection" and for... in effect (regardless who first coined this Darwinian concept thusly) "Survival of the Fittest."
Darwinism, in Humankind, would argue in favor of Hitler's Eugenics programs and his extermination of anyone deemed ... genetically inferior. Hitler was following Darwin. Didn't you know that? Hitler was only putting into practice the "Survival of the Fittest" so as to ... in his view ... purify the gene pool and create a better and more evolved Human species. This is what Darwin theorized Nature did naturally over far longer periods of time. Hitler was simply trying to speed up the process of Natural Selection so that we all would reap the benefits that more quickly.
After all, as Darwin and Hitler also reasoned... we're all "just animals, nothing special"... right, Angelus? So why not exterminate the mentally and physically inferior than have them procreate and thus perpetuate such "sub-standard" genes?
You still want to keep arguing this side of the discussion?
Darwinism is ... in a nutshell... the Law of Ultimate Selfishness. After all, we are taught, as Darwin as well as evolutionary biologists have extrapolated from his theories, that all of Nature (thus, ourselves included) are foundationally and genetically motivated by the need to prolong our own lives and to propogate our genes. Thus... whatever benefits us matters most.
Again... selfishness... pure and simple.
If stealing benefits us, then Darwinism makes such right. If murdering someone so as to attain benefit materially or financially or in any other way... then such is likewise justified. If raping women so as to perpetuate our genes... then, yet again, all such is fully justified and, in fact, mandated by Darwinism.
Thus... by such illogic every crime imaginable is fully justified if it helps to benefit the criminal, improve his life and/or help him propogate and prolong his own genes.
Thus... if we follow Darwinism to its ultimate and unavoidable conclusion... we are all genetically destined to become... sociopaths.
And were we all to adopt such an inherently self-destructive worldview, Humankind would soon drive itself to extinction... the very opposite of what Darwinism claims to be Nature's true purpose.
Why is this? Simple...
Darwinism doesn't work... for Humankind. And that is because, Angelus, ... we are NOT "just animals, nothing special."
And that... was my point.
- Upir'
And if you notice, in the animal kingdom, we have made it, "survival of the cutest".
Cuteness is in the eye of the beholder, as is the decision of who should survive. This doesn't negate the basic premise that Darwin put forth, which is visible in the plant and animal realm. Evolution and the survival of what works for a species is observable.
Humans are social animals capable of altering our environment in a huge way by choice. Some flowers will disguise themselves, perhaps as a bee, in order to attract a male bee for pollenation. They did this on their own, but if they can do that, why not get some human to do the pollenation for them.
Perhaps those bug-eyed and shivering chihuahuas have worked with us to develop their appeal (yuck!). Evolution finds a way even though it at times can appear as if we devolving.
genetics seems to have disproved darwins theory.fossil records dont show his graduall changes.species turn up run for a while and then suddenly vanish and are replaced by something new and very different.
The fossil record is most confusing for anti-Darwinists... true. And yet, it is just as equally puzzling for Darwinists.
I recently watched a PBS special (What Darwin Never Knew) that was very pro-evolution. While almost all of it involved simplistic observations for which any of a number of possible explanations could have equally explained the observed phenomena, yet I found it pointedly amusing when they called attention to what they called the vestiges in modern skeletons of prior evolutionary processes. In particular, they focused at length on bones in the skeletons of whales that resembled undeveloped hip bones. This, they said, evidenced the degree to which evolutionary changes had occurred in the whale and other fish species in the far-flung past.
Of course, the glaring oversight was simply this:
As they pointedly never attempted to explain... how is it that whales somehow de-"evolved" frrom four-legged or two-legged creatures requiring such hips... into sea mammals with fish-like bodies? After all, wouldn't this be taking evolution in the exact opposite direction they were claiming it had gone?
I also found it rather ridiculous how they attempted to explain what might have prompted "Nature" to have fish "evolve" into land animals with limbs instead of fins and lungs instead of gills. Their explanation: predators forced the change (?!). If this were so, and as predators are found throughout the proverbial "food chain" both in the sea and on land, both then and now, this provides no answer whatsoever.
As usual, evolutionists have a tough time coming up with the actual motivations of Nature that supposedly spark evolutionary changes. After all, it is a biological fact that the simpler the organism, the generally better suited it is to survive and propogate itself... which is supposedly the foundation of Evolutionary Theory, itself. Yet Evolution, itself, supposedly and continually manifests itself by having life forever "evolving" into ever more complex higher forms. Isn't this contrary and, in fact, counter-productive to its own founding principles?
Small wonder that, even today and contrary to the definition of all legitimate sciences, we still have no foundational and observable or otherwise testable scientific Laws for "Evolution." We have discovered, observed, and predicted the established Laws of Gravitation, Laws of Thermodynamics, Laws of Motion, Laws of the operations of gases, liquids, etc., and even Laws that desribe and predict even the highly theoretical areas of physics and Quantum realm. Yet still... after more than a hundred years... not a single Law that defines, describes or predicts the operations of "Evolution."
According to the dictionary, this lack of such laws does not describe a science... but instead, a pseudo-science.
So long as you are careful not to look past its highly simplistic explanations, Evolution makes sense. Same also with Religion, too, btw. ;)
- Upir'
I am compelled to revisit a topic that was barely brushed upon at the beginning of this thread. What does survival of the fittest mean? The question itself illicit all sort of eugenic ideas, and as a person who has hand me down defects such as asthma, a short fuse and a short stature... am I on the chopping block?
Hitler had a vision of a perfect race free of defects, and surely we cannot agree with his methods.
Science has increased birthrate numbers for everyone. One of the birth control movement’s greatest critiques is that it was started by people who believed certain kinds of individuals should not be allowed to procreate.
How far down the draconian rabbit hole are we going to go?
don't you realize that what Hitler had started, modern scientists have turned into a rat race of genetic manipulated for the operation "clone wars"? I thought this was blatantly obvious. Therefore, this civilization is still living in WWII but in a newer version of it. One that is shadowed to where the population does not realize what kind of monsters we actually have in office at this time that condone genetic research in the magnitude that Hitler had in the past.
yeah I am not too sureIam all to happy with genetically enginering research andalso accomplishments, soem of it just seems as if they / we are playing God or creator, like in the tv show Caprica (sp) just seem wrong yet, may ok it is a very gray and disillusional to me as for the human race in general and I can actually say Hitler was a Genius to the point of Insanity yet, are not all leaders of war at some point or another
It's interesting to note that those who support the "Survival of the Fittest" proposition fail to realize that in the grand scheme of world power agenda they would invariably be among the first to go. Isn't it ironic?
Last I heard Denver airport would be turned into the NWO headquarters gas chambers and all for the undeserving. Naturally, it is all hogwash, but a good read nonetheless.
I question the definition of "fittest" in context to the requirements of survival.
I think it is a lot more complex than brute strength, and I would include *mental development* among human adaptation and method of survival. (Able to overcome the myriad of other physical "shortcomings" our species may encounter.) Why should we assume that we will not continue to adapt in increasing adversity?
It can be said of *sociobiology* the assumption that scientific discovery shall be judged on its possible political consequences rather than whether is is true or false. This is the mode of reasoning which brings us to the "pseudo-genetics" of Eugnics in Nazi Germany.
Darwin was right, survival of the fittest and all that ... I would rather be a Komodo dragon than a tortoise.
eugenics was practiced in the u.s as early as the 19 teens under the wilson administration. at the time it was part of the progressive agenda. it was a very mainstream idea in that time and during the 20s and 30s...it only stopped due to the actions of the national socialists in germany.
things that make you go hmmmmmmmm
~W~
While I do not exactly like the concept of being killed off just because I'm not the strongest, some people are letting their human egos get the best of them. Some are assuming that we, in fact, are not animals, and therefore above the chain of evolution that binds this entire planet. Yet, if you look scientifically at history itself, you will see that humans have, in fact, evolved into what we are now. And we are still evolving, even as we sit here and babble about how far above the animal kingdom we are.
If something larger and stronger than us evolved on this planet, we can try are damndest to kill it off, but if it was meant for us to be killed off, then so be it. I do not, however, think Genocide is the answer to creating the strongest. History has proven that it does not work. There will always be a genetic defect of some sort, or some "dormant gene" in the bloodline that will create a stronger party. Are you then insinuating that it would be right to kill that person off?
The whole point of Darwin's, "Survival of the Fittest," was not for people to go around committing genocide just to find and/or keep the strongest of each culture, no, the concept was designed as a simple way in which the world works. The strong survive, and the weak do not. That is, the stronger species, the ones that have proven that they can adapt, are the ones that have survived, while the ones that could not adapt to the changes happening on this planet are now extinct. That's all it is.
What I meant about the dormant gene was that it would offset the stronger party, not create it. Silly me and my typos.
AngelasAshes, has already clarified that Darwin never said " Survival of the fittest".
Sadly the common denominator in irrational generalized ideals is a misinterpretations of such material.
I suggest Richard Dawkin as a source.
I am curious as to what underlying topic exist here.
Those with mystic biases are want to undermine science discovery, often employing such general statements to " beat the fear drum."
As demonstrated here, any attempt to present correct information is ignored, and the intent to radicalize presses on.
What is your fear, and how have you adopted the " Survival of the fittest" to " rationalize" said fear?
problem with "survival of the fittest"is there is always someone out there better then you. Besides what happens when the last person is standing what then. The human race dies out.
Men shouldnt die because of their physical prowess but if they contibute to the greater good. i believe nothing is wrongif it helps someone out so even if society thinks you are wrong if you contribute to anyones life then you deserve your life... people who dont try to help anyone shouldnt be treated like the rest of us. Everyone looks down upon martyrs when what we need are more martyrs maybe not a religious crusade or anything but people who will stand out to make a point even in adversity
O yea please inact it in law...
We might dominate Warren Buffet, Al Greenspan, Mark Mobius, Tony, Gordon Brown, Leon Brittan, Roman Abramovich, Prince Al-Weed Bin talal and all the other rich but weak wankers, sorry I meant Bankers.
Roars...then...
*Grinz*
Matter over mind, mind over matter, perhaps both?
Man is born feral and has to be taught what society accepts as proper behavior. I think many as a group want to believe they would be involved with other's plights around the world but when all is said and done preservation of the personal family unit will come first and if push comes to shove, self preservation. I don't know if that is actually survival of the fittest or rather survival out of fear of the ending of life. The stronger usually do win a fight but on occasion cunning comes into play so one never knows if it is survival of the fittest or survival of the smartest.
Darwin only presented a theory. He was surprised it was accepted so easily. There are anamolies within the Theory of Evolution so I take it all with a grain of salt. Please don't ask me to site them because I am not interested in this anymore and I have a book somewhere that goes into many of them and read it a long time ago. I could probably look it up but the point here is, science is not that exact (IMHO). It changes over the years. Look at what people believed about things 500 years ago.
"Matter over mind, mind over matter, perhaps both?"
tsk tsk
Cartesian Dualism...Eeeeeeewwwww!!!! Get it off me!!!! Get it off me!!!! (or out of as the case may be.)
XP
there are still debates over specific parts of darwin's theory, but still the basics of evolution have been proven definitively by way of biochemistry.
some might believe in intelligent design of the universe and such (and i have to say im in that camp), but the evolutionary process is a done deal.
~W~