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Mikey
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02:04:35 Apr 23 2010
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We all know that in the right amount and in the right circumstances, drugs can disorient a person to such an extent that he/she cannot tell "real" reality from the reality produced by the drug.

Can and are any of the paranormal, occult, or even scifi things we know today be a product of someone on drugs? Can this be studied? Could vampires have possibly been just imaginary friends of some stoner?

Discuss




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coolleyhou
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02:44:51 Apr 23 2010
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I have just two words; Kilgore Trout.



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BeautifulEnlightenment
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03:13:59 Apr 23 2010
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Not sure, but I saw the word drugs and I just had to post. However, I doubt it was the hallucination of a stoner, as pot doesn't make you hallucinate. And I do NOT want to hear from a bunch of ppl who NEVER even smoked it that "pot's a hallucinogen!!" Duh!! That doesn't mean it makes you trip. Take it from someone who smoked it for years.



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Mikey
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03:16:57 Apr 23 2010
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Sorry, I've never done drugs so I don't know what drug does what exactly.



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coolleyhou
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03:26:20 Apr 23 2010
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For some reason I can't explain, I have never smoked pot or done drugs; I think I was too terrified of the effects, being borderline hyprochondriac, and serious sufferer of various phobias, I could never tolerate the thought of being out of control of my faculties. At any rate, there are too many books written by confirmed drug users to enumerate here-notably Kurt Vonnegut who said in a magazine interveiw that he often "lit up" while writing to enhance ideas. I've heard somewhere that even Mark Twain liked a little herb every now and again, but its probably just B.S. Lots of sci-fi writers use(d), by their own admission. But I don't think a person has to be stoned to be creative. Who knows where the idea of vampires or werewolves originated. Probably began as campfire stories and picked up flesh through the centuries. If I'm not mistaken, the legend of the vampire began with Vlad the Impaler. Then of course you must consider that not everyone who's claimed to see a ghost or a U.F.O. or an alien has been stoned, although I imagine that would quite amplify the ordeal, yes?



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Mikey
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03:37:07 Apr 23 2010
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Nothing in the world is "everything" and 100%... yet. But I think it's enough for a few hundred hippies to make their illusions into everyone's reality if they talk about it everyday for a few years.



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dabbler
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04:14:49 Apr 23 2010
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Preexisting conditions can be egxasterbated by using drugs.

A person with a weak grasp on reality, or a delusional person will likely experience increased delusions, and weaken their already limited grasp on reality.





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Mikey
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04:24:11 Apr 23 2010
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Don't mistake illusion for delusion.



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dabbler
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04:25:38 Apr 23 2010
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I will add that if a persons presents a claim of an extrodinary experience of a paranormal, or supernatural kind, and it is determined that they were under the influence of drugs, there is a reasonable case against their credibility.

A cult leader who declared himself Mystic Master had many followers describing intense altered states meditating in his presence..
starting as simply feeling flushed, and graduating to intense physical energy, that came in sudden burst.

It was discovered that B-12, and later amphetamines were employed in tea.



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Mikey
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04:27:57 Apr 23 2010
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I disagree. Drugs open you up to the world. Just because they make you different and help you see different things, doesn't make them wrong, bad, or not credible. Just makes them different.

Each man's reality is as real as the next man's.



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dabbler
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04:30:23 Apr 23 2010
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Exactly what are you dsagreeing to mikey?



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Mikey
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04:32:06 Apr 23 2010
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"I will add that if a persons presents a claim of an extrodinary experience of a paranormal, or supernatural kind, and it is determined that they were under the influence of drugs, there is a reasonable case against their credibility."

That ^

Just because their reality is different, doesn't make it wrong.


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dabbler
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04:32:59 Apr 23 2010
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regarding your correction, I stated it in the proper context. Illusion is not relavent to my post.



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Mikey
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04:35:37 Apr 23 2010
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This thread is about people who do drugs. They get illusions, not delusions. To say their reality is wrong or not credible is an incredibly smug and backwards statement.



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dabbler
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04:39:38 Apr 23 2010
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In your post you say, ' a thousand hippies take their illusion, and make it reality' that is an example of mixing up illusion, and delussion.


Indeed, using drugs alters a persons perception, and their ability to reason cognativly, that is sufficent to suspect their credibilty.

You state you never used drugs.

So you have no personal foundation for your assertions.

Is it your intent to say that a person under the influence of drugs is more attuned to reality?



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dabbler
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04:44:54 Apr 23 2010
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I said, people with preexisting conditions such as delusions eggsaterbate those conditions while on drugs, the delusional person will intensify their delusions.

An illusion is a product of chicanery, it is not associated with the mind.

You made a mistake, get over it.

People on drugs are altered mentally, and their perception is compromised.

How may I ask does that not subtract from their credibility?



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dabbler
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04:47:22 Apr 23 2010
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in your thread post you say, ' the reality produced by drugs' that makes no sense.



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dabbler
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04:50:30 Apr 23 2010
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Perhaps you could word your post a bit better. There may be potential in this topic.



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danzig1330
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06:05:32 Apr 23 2010
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I have to agree with Dabbler. If someone was to tell me of an supernatural expirence they had while under the influence of drugs, I couldn't take them seriously. When a person is under the influence of certain drugs the so called reality they expirence isn't real. The delusion or the paranoria may feel real but it isn't the same feeling they would have if it wasn't for the effects of the drugs.
Now to the other side of the question, I doubt that most supernatural happenings occurred because someone was under the influence of mind altering drugs.



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FadedMemory1024
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06:28:42 Apr 23 2010
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Well, drugs can definitely cause someone to be disoriented. It depends on what type of drug they would use to cause someone to become dettached from reality or to see/hear strange things.

In my opinion, Marijuana is not a drug and it doesn't make you hallucinate. Although, the effects of weed on someones system varies from person to person. I consider amphetamines and methamphetamine to be drugs. While on those drugs you tend to see shadow people, things in the corner of your eyes, you hear sounds, and even mistake someones words for other words resulting in paranoia and confusion... There are many other effects. Years of heavy drug use can cause those symptoms because it damages the brain.

I do -not- use heavy drugs and I never want to but I've seen what it can do to someones psyche and their ability to tell what is real and what is fake. Drugs definitely can make someone believe they've seen something paranormal or something out of the ordinary. They can also exaggerate anything they've seen/experienced. I agree that their credibility has gone down if on drugs, you just can't trust their judgement completely because they aren't sober. Drugs are bad mkay



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FallenStar
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07:15:20 Apr 23 2010
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Drugs lead to an altered state of conciousness and also affect diet....we have all seen the withered stoners.

I do not discount either...in the thread what do Vampires Contribute I have theorised on their "Reason to be".And how we know Genetics are altered by feeding.

As for entering other realms and becoming a vessel for other entities...yes, this argument also has its merits.

It remains a fact human neurones are the most complex matter yet discovered and thus what better medium to use cross over.

In short take drugs at your own risk, you may wake up with a "friend".



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MindxBender
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08:24:55 Apr 23 2010
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I think that anytime a person is on drugs and has a paranormal experience ect. then it is questionalble if the incident really took place or not. That's why i feel that anyone doing psychic exercises or practiceing anything should not be on drugs while doing so! ( My opinion)



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RomaMarieNightwing
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16:07:17 Apr 23 2010
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I have to agree with sire dabbler and Sire RainWitch, it would lead to a false experience brought on by the distortion of the altered state of the mind while under the influence and in fact discreditable in the realm of scienticfic exploration and potential evidence.

And with no disrespect, if one has to utilize such ( drugs) to have an expereince, then they are not fully exherting themselves to their full potential capablities.
You would be in retrospect shorting yourself of the realism and idealistic possibilities.



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dabbler
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16:38:41 Apr 23 2010
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The dissassociating factor of hallucinagens is utilized in some ritual compacity to suppress the ego. This is done under strictly guided conditions, with many rites preceeding the session.

Recreational drug use, under pretense of ritual should always be suspect.

If someone says suggest that they use drugs as sacrament be suspicious.















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Zazz
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17:04:28 Apr 23 2010
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well of course some drugs will make one hallucinate and such but by definition a drug is something that makes the body do something it wasnt already doing or doing correctly and also on creative people Mr. Jimi Hendricks admitted his best writing was done when he was Lit up because otherwise he wasnt inspired or had no words and I do think this thread has a valid point for discussion because really who can say that some of this wasnt inspired by the stoners of the past lol like they were going to tell ya they were lol and open drug use was common back in the day and accepted as an everyday occurence but anywho thats just my two cents



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dabbler
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17:19:46 Apr 23 2010
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Zazz

An example of application for inspiration, Mr Jimmy Likely already had the
ability present, the use of drugs was a vehicle.

A fine line between recreational, and " other" use.


Eventually his use consumed him, he crossed the line.

Kurt Cobain, same scenerio.



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Daeva
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19:30:40 Apr 23 2010
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I am not really a drug user and even though I was a teen in the 60s, never met any true hippies. It was more than just sitting around all day smoking pot. Many mind altering experiments were done in the sixties by Timothy Leary with LSD.

Here is a little about altered states using various drugs.

"Throughout the tenure of the human species on Earth, certain mushrooms, extracts from cacti, various roots and herbs, and other unlikely substances have been chewed and ingested, not for the purpose of sustaining life, but for the physiological and psychological effects that they have on the body and the brain. Cults of mystical expression have grown up around the use of these mind-altering substances, for many shamans and priests believed that they could open portals to higher planes of consciousness and even to other worlds by ingesting certain plants. The ancient Greeks held the mushroom sacred, and some contemporary researchers have postulated that the famed Oracle at Delphi may have ingested some form of psychedelic drug, along with the fumes the entranced woman inhaled. Other cultures have also held the mushroom or the cactus sacred. The Mayan Indians of Central America erected stone monuments to the mushroom earlier than 1000 B.C.E. These monuments have been found in the tombs of the wealthier citizens of the Mayan culture, and for many years were thought to be fertility symbols.

Such drugs as mescaline from the peyote cactus, ibogaine from the root of a rain forest shrub, and the so-called "magic mushrooms" came to be known as psychedelic, because they cause people to hallucinate, to see and hear things that are not really there. Dr. Humphrey Osmond (1917– ) began studying hallucinogens at a hospital in Saskatchewan in 1952 when he was examining the similarities between mescaline and the adrenaline molecule. It was Osmond who coined the word "psychedelic" to describe the effects of the mind-altering drugs, and it was also he who supervised the author Aldous Huxley (1894–1963) in the well-known series of experiments with mescaline that Huxley recorded in his book The Doors of Perception (1953).

While modern research techniques focus on psychedelics for purposes of learning more about the human brain, relieving pain, finding antidotes to drug overdoses, and other medical applications, the ingestion of such drugs in the past was most often done to achieve transcendence or to accentuate mystical experiences.

Dr. Sidney Cohen, a Los Angeles psychiatrist-pharmacologist, author of The Beyond Within: The LSD Story (1972), commented, "It is hardly necessary to invoke supernatural explanations for the mind's more exceptional activities.…Intuition, creativity, telepathic experiences, prophecy—all can be understood as superior activities of brain-mind function.…The experience called hallucinogenic will play a role in leading us into the future. It points out the existence of unique mental states that must be studied and understood.

LSD was found to create such primary effects as the following:

a feeling of being one with the universe;
recognition of two identities;
a change in the usual concept of self;
new perceptions of space and time;
heightened sensory perceptions;
a feeling that one has been touched by a profound understanding of religion or philosophy;
a gamut of rapidly changing emotions;
increased sensitivity for the feelings of others;
such psychotic changes as illusions, hallucinations, paranoid delusions, severe anxiety."

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Mysteries-of-the-Mind/Altered-States-of-Consciousness-Psychedelics-the-mind-expanding-drugs.html


Therefore, I guess it would depend on what was used as to whether it would "exacerbate" the condition. My gut feeling though is that the idea of vampires didn't come from altered states. Many of the ideas came from the Roma and out of India. It is a thought provoking idea though and I guess very possible from what they are saying about mind altering drugs. I cannot guess from the use of more modern drugs or when you go farther back into antiquity.



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Thinker
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19:57:20 Apr 23 2010
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I do not think that drugs play apart in the paranormal, occult or scifi things that we know today.

Many hallucinations cause us to see things but the chances of paranormal, occult and scifi things are very slim. It is more likely that a lamp may look weird than normal than something paranormal. Many have claimed to have hauntings and have been completely sober.

Vampires are not imaginary friends of some stoner. Vampire/Vampirisim is a lifestyle by many on VR.


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Oceanne
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20:57:43 Apr 23 2010
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Carlos Casteneda is the first name that comes to mind.
Do you remember a book call "The teachings of Don Juan"? Let me just say this...The dude be trippin!...and thats what his whole thing was about.An alternate reality through Peyote.
He talks quite extensively about not knowing which reality was real.And think about it...Shamen and those who use druga to enhance their meditations often experience altered states and realities.



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Oceanne
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21:06:19 Apr 23 2010
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He told of experiencing some pretty 'paranormal" stuff.Seeing as aura eggs,seeing the ancestors,ALL kinds of stuff.
So yes Mikey people have accounted for experiencing paranormal things during a trip or getting really "down" on Chiva(Heroin)
and Opium.
There are a ton accounts of double or mass hallucination when peeps take (shrooms)Psilocybin.As a matter of fact,there was,at one point a debate I heard about that suggested that Psilocybin was that Manna that kept the people alive in the desert for 40 years!
It was also suggested that shrooms where behind some of the experiences of those who saw God way back when.



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Oceanne
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21:30:24 Apr 23 2010
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I have a thread going about the Manna machine and it was researching the nature of that machine, I came upon the Mushroom/Moses reff.So,according to that theory,If manna is the psilocybin mushroom, then it would mean that the Koran, Bible, and Torah were all inspired by psychedelically induced visions.



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Behomoth
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23:02:36 Apr 23 2010
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It makes a lot of sense. I think it would be sort of ironic if the idea of vampires...well the revenant types, came out of some hallucinogenic trip. Although, I believe a lot of it was superstition because they weren't knowledgeable about how the body decays after death. Who knows, but it truly is an interesting topic. Maybe some of us can do some research on this further to see if there is any mention of such a thing anywhere. Maybe Upir knows since he did such an extensive amount of research. I know many tribal groups had a variety of rituals.



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Oceanne
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02:12:52 Apr 24 2010
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Hay,remember the Ergot contamination of cereal grains in Europe back in the middle ages? ? An outbreak of ergot poisoning occurred in France sometime in early 1950s. It all stemmed from the fungus infecting Rye bread.The victims were said to have had horrible visions of being attacked by tigers and snakes,humanoid like monsters and even of turning into beasts. .
Whos to say they werent hallucinating about vampires?and we know it happened not only in France,but some other countries as well.Romania and Bulgaria being two countries where Vampire myth flourishes.I mean,we hear of the "blood being on fire" when one is supposedly attacked by a vampire and all that.There was a thing called St.Anthony's fire too,which was associated with Ergot poisoning,and it caused a terrible burning in extremities and scalp etc..





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dabbler
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04:13:35 Apr 24 2010
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Menthan gas was attributed to numerous claims of a "ghost wizard" in the Midwest, circa 1940s people would enter the area, and menthan ( produced by landfill under developed tenements) would deplete oxygen, and cause mild hallincinations, it was said that the "Wizards Ghost" was defending his
lair.



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UpirLikhyj
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04:56:55 Apr 24 2010
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Mikey - "This thread is about people who do drugs. They get illusions, not delusions. To say their reality is wrong or not credible is an incredibly smug and backwards statement."


So... those persons who have, while under the influence of hallucinogens, perceived a "reality" in which, for example, they thought they could fly and then proceeded to live in that reality by leaping off skyscrapers to their deaths.... these were perceiving a reality just as valid as any other? Such persons were not being delusional? I would enjoy having you explain this view.

Could you further explain how those seeing their bodies slam bloodily to the pavement and then bounce wetly thereafter ... are not justified in rightly concluding that these foolish people's "reality" was just as valid as their own? Could you explain how their deaths were not caused by a delusion but, instead, is all some sort of relativistic illusion?

Better still, perhaps you can explain how I or anyone else is being "incredibly smug and backwards" for finding such a narcotic-induced view of reality to be not only "wrong and not credible" but, in fact, quite foolish and ludicrous.

I look forward to the ... clarification.


- Upir'



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sheepsheadwanderer
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07:07:53 Apr 24 2010
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This thread is now closed. If any of you want to make a new one of this nature, please wait the appropriate amount of time to do so.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by LadyKrystalynDarkstar on Apr 24 2010  •

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