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ok I have wondered and i know many have as well

when a coven is started, and i do not mean on vr or online fun web sights. but when ia coven is started how did it start

so here are the questions

1. if you have founded a coven how did you go about doing it?

2. how have you made it work?

3. how did you get the word out about it?

4. how did you find out about a coven?

5. what are the warning signs to look for before you join a coven or take some in?

you mean covens in real life?

I belong in a real life coven.
They pick you, you do not pick them.
For over 2 years I was friends with people I knew were Wiccans, but never knew of their coven.
We do not put word out about the coven.

Well here is my two cents.

I have belonged in covens and co-started ( for lack of a better word) a covens as well, we were two like minded solo practicing people, and I was in a coven at the time. So we started a coven at first there were only to of us and we did sabbat and esbats and then we watched others that were looking for covens and those that had a true interest with inducted, we did not widely advertise. If i may inquire why do you ask?

Yes, as Mysticwinds stated, the coven choses you. I was a solitary practioner for many years, and after attending several Open rituals I was asked to join my coven.

Since moving down to TN I have feel back into being solitary again and I do miss belonging to a family. I just have not seen or heard of any opens down here.

Coven
Origin:
1500–10 for sense “assembly”; 1655–65 for current sense; var. of obs. covent assembly, religious group, convent or "a gathering of witches," 1662, earlier (c.1500) a variant of covent, cuvent early forms of convent (q.v.). Association with witches arose in Scotland, but not popularized until Sir Walter Scott used it in this sense in "Letters on Demonology and Witchcraft" (1830). (Dictionary excerpt)


Not just Wiccans have Covens. Nowadays the Modern Vampire culture has them too but they aren't historically something that existed before more modern times. There are exceptions but because of religious folks, if you look in dictionaries and what not they will say a group of 13 witches. It is based solely on superstition. I wrote an article about this and did the research.

Each coven will vary as to how they handle things. Most Traditional witches don't usually have them, but since this is more modern times there are a lot of influences so one never knows. It really depends on the person who organized the group and also what belief it is connected to as well. Sometimes you can merely apply and in other cases you have to be invited in by someone recommending you and you may have an interview and voting or private voting when the suggestion is made. It really depends on what kind of a Coven as I mentioned previously.

see now I never think of real life vampires actually having covens, this only goes to show how much I still have to learn.


why is it 13 witches?

My coven does not have 13 witches only 5 at the time.
Many have worked hard to get their degrees in Wicca and have became High Priest or Prestess.
They go on to begin their own.
So they become Sister covens on Sabbaths and Esbats
we all become one to celebrate.

I had been a solitary for years.
If tho I was a Solitary...when I was asked to joined my coven.
I still had to do my year and a day.
This shows the coven just how dedicated you are to the path.

A lot that has been stated above is true, but verbiage is changing because of all the RPGers ... They are calling covens simply gatherings now... but many times a gathering is crated when a member of another or larger gathering separates and starts one of their own... I have no idea how the very first gathering began, but it was hundreds of years ago. Often times members of a gathering share similar beliefs and religions, because many of the rituals and practices are based on these religions. Members are often VERY secretive about their gathering and what goes on in them... for obvious reasons. Some gatherings have bad reputations from rumors and such. People in a gathering act more like a family than on VR. They are usually smaller than 15 members and the creator of that gathering will assume the role as the mother/ father and the rest are the children. The parent teaches everything and the siblings learn from each other. Its important that the parent is very experienced or often times they lose the trust of their children. Thats how many gatherings vanish.

To be accepted many times a member would find you and invite you to a gathering. after a few days with you around they will make you undergo a period called "proven" where they will assess if you are lying or even one of them. if not. you will be dismissed. Different gatherings have different things you must prove. Sang gatherings obviously have ones involving blood and if your body can use it effectively.

Gatherings are often casual and in people's homes so they are VERY difficult to find.

Like someone already said, the Coven will pick you. All the Coven that I do know, are keep secret, because, believe it or not, the misconception about Wicca and witchcraft still alive. Many practitioner prefer to keep everything pertaining to religion away from work and also some "pesky" family members. If you got the basic about the craft, nothing can stop you from forming your own coven.

does anybody know of any packs or covens in Pennsylvania?

I have a real world coven and when starting up or adding a chapter anywhere the first and single most important thing is to ensure that your community will allow you to build a society there. Seeking out other Elders and members within that location, understanding the territory you live in is very - very important.
Many kin are not just role players and truly want to belong to something that they believe in and live by. Moving in and and setting up shop without this kind of fore thought and research could easily cause others to met your ideologies and purpose with resistance.

how do i find if there are covens or even pcks in this area?

@God of Chaos: when you say gatherings, it sounds like highlander.

Just ask at any book store related to the craft.

If you are really interested in finding people who practice in covens, begin with registered groups. Start by joining Witchvox.com and find out who is in your area.

A lot of the really good ones will be listed there, and usually have a contact person you can email. Understand that this person will keep their coven and meeting times private until they check you out.

By the same token you should take a dim view of people who are overly eager to introduce you to their circle. Some things have a way of smelling wrong quickly.

Ask a lot of questions and be wary. Educate yourself to the danger signs of people you DON'T want to be around. Refer to good information like the Advanced Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Frame. (No..I'm not related)

It's been around for years and gives you a good idea of what to avoid. Your informed questions will help you decide to stay or run. The higher they score..the less information you should give them about you and the further away you should stay.

Here is the link.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

Yes witchvox is a great place to locate people that are in your area, and they will generally have list of events in your area if you do a search by area.

That is always the first place I recommend people to start their search at.

Excellent posting Sire obonewits.
I agree covens and the kin who operate them are often difficult to discover and even harder to contact by choice. So one should always be armed with question during there search.
If I may say so Vampire Rave is an excellent way to meet people and find information. Post in the forums for local meet ups as well. Networking is often the only way to find what will suit you best... But there are some web based directories if you want to take a more direct approach.

This is one such site, it may help to get your feet wet and locate some folks that can give you insight and contacts in your area.

http://www.sanguinarius.org/links/Regional_Groups/

i think it can be hard for the beginner to find real covens and packs with all the role play that goes on these days

iv'e always thought that http://vcmb.org is a good place for anyone looking to learn about authentic vampirism.

Mistress Vampire: The saying, "You don't find the coven, they find you.", may be true for some, but for the most part you DO find a coven. Covens may be secret in nature, but they are easy to find if you are into the alternative community to begin with. When I was living in Fresno, California, the Pagan community was very large. I joined the meetup.com website and searched for a pagan meetup. Sure I had been practicing solitary for 10 years already, but I wanted to start interacting with other pagans as well. I didn't care if they were solitary or worked with a coven. So I joined the pagan meetup out of Fresno and started going to the meetups. I had already known quite a few of the people that attended (because alot of people in the area were open about their beliefs), but there were a few new faces I met and really liked. I remember meeting an Alexandrian, Gardnerian, BTW and Georgian there. As I got to talking to all of them, I became friends with them. Was invited to stand circle with the Alexandrian/Gardnerian during a public ritual. Nice, but not for me. I had really liked the Georgians. I confronted them, and started studying with them. I had my dedication and 1* and 2* initiations in the Georgian trad coven, CoL (Children of Luna) out of Fresno, California and then I moved out of state. I have not been given permission to start a Georgian coven here until I reach 3*. So I started an eclectic coven. How I started this was simple. There are few people I know in this state that are as open as I am that have the same belief. I brought the idea up to them and they were interested. There are laws and bylaws to a trad coven as well as an eclectic one. There are lessons given, oathbound material, initiations performed, etc. Public kowledge is found everywhere, but what is in a coven, stays in a coven.
Some signs I would not want a student or teacher?
Drug addict/drunk, liar, asking for money, criminal, not serious about learning (like never showing up or taking the time to communicate with anyone), dishonest about what they know, outing all of us.

Mysticwinds: While the year and a day thing is a good traditional practice, it doesn't apply to everyone. Some take longer and others a little less. I prefer those that take longer because as you states it shows the coven how dedicated they are on their path. And once a person reaches 3* in a trad coven, they can hive off and start their own coven of that trad.

FateUnseen: A coven is 3 more . When a coven gets too big it branches off and forms another coven. The number 13 is nothing more than one of Margaret Murray's poor theories.

Markus666: I agree here somewhat. Covens are kept from work and family. But the individual person themself may not. I do not keep my beliefs hidden from those at work, but I do for some family members. And it is especially bad now that I am no longer living in California. I live in the south now and things are a bit more, "Baptist", and "Pentecostal".

GodofChaos: The Gatherings you speak of remind me of the, "Socials" we had in California. Once a month we held socials where we would invite everyone. People brought a dish of food and we made drinks and mingled. It gave everyone (coven members especially) a feel for new people that were there for the first time.

Shadowflame: Are you looking for a witch or vampire coven? Witchvox has listings in all states for covens in local areas. Mind you, if you find one that is of interest to you, they sometimes do not answer everyone. Alongside the name of the coven of group, you will find their specific path.

Severus: Unless you are constructing a Masonic Lodge, Order of the Eastern Star temple, or a Universal Life Church, a witch or vampire coven does not need local community permission or to even be told. A coven is not a church, therefore it does not need any type of community service. Covens hold their meetings and rituals in private, out of the community's eye. A coven is a secret group of people gathering to perform rituals that the rest of society deem as an unfit or unproper belief. Not even a GD Lodge has to go through this. But this could be just my upbringing and where I am from. I have not lived all over, so things could be different elsewhere.

Obonewits: Great answer!

TheRoman: I do agree 100%. Too much roleplay is hard for someone to find a legitimate group, and a complete turn off as well.

it sounds pretty similar...
yeah... it's nothing more than
people coming together to get to know you
before anything serious is discussed

@ FateUnseen.... what is Highlander?

highlander is a movie. You know, "There can be only 1"

whatever lol

NamaahFelenora:
I am not sure if you realize it but the answer you give to Obonewits and TheRoman is in contradiction to the answer you give me.

In fact it is the exact reason individuals looking to start a coven or looking to join one should take the effort to network permission within that community from established legitimate Elders. Having a standard of legitimacy is the only way for any community (regardless of location) to avoid the role players and to avoid those that do live within that life style who's only goal is to prey on the uneducated.

NamaahFelenora
You are so right.
The 2nd degree I am still working on and
most likely will continue for a few more years.
The 3rd degree and that is it.
I much rather stay second degree there is much to do
on the second degree, more then the 1st degree.
In which the 1st dgree is not easily done either.
It takes much dedication of yourself.

Severus:

No contradiciton. From my experience of being in a traditional coven, there isn't and has never been a need to get permission from the community. Covens are not like churches in the sense that everyone knows about them. If you were constructing a Masonic lodge or something to that effect then yes, you might need to get a building permit, etc.

I was agreeing with Obonewits in reference to browsing through witchvox for covens in loca areas.

The Roman I agreed with in reference to there being too many roleplayers out there that could be discouraging to people wanting to find legitimate covens.

But in my experience, I have never came across a roleplaying witch coven. Now, vampire covens I have heard of there being rpger's. I do not know if it is because of the actual RPG game dealing with vampires or what, but when it comes to a witchcraft coven, the traditional covens (Gardnerian, Georgian, Dianic, Alexandrian, British Traditional Wicca, etc.) do not roleplay. I don't even think the ecelctic covens roleplay. There are fluffys and wannabes that have watched the movie, "The Craft", one too many times, so I guess you could call them roleplayers, but as far as witchcraft covens and rpger's, you don't find it. It is not the coven (traditionally speaking) that will roleplay, but the specific individual. And if someone showed interest in a coven and they brought that individual in only to see that they were a roleplayer, well they would surely be kicked out rather quickly.

OK then I guess I'm missing something... Could you please define legitimate for me.

Quote:
"The Roman I agreed with in reference to there being too many roleplayers out there that could be discouraging to people wanting to find legitimate covens."

By your own admission anyone can open a coven with no permission needed by an outside force... so then how do you gain the status of legitimacy??

I don't know where you got the idea that opening a coven was some how like opening a masonic lodge or other small business where by permit and licenses would be required, but that's not how we do things.
It's called an underground for a reason, because it is sub culture and thus a self regulating society where you don't get permits you get permission.

I have no idea how it works in Wicca and Pagan circles but the vampire community world wide is massive. Areas like New York, London, and Toronto are locations that most people are aware of because of there influences on the culture it's self. But believe me small cities have a unseen structure as well. It is that structure that provides stability and ethics... We have our own laws and own code of conduct which can differ from location to location. I can't believe I even have to debate this on VR... I mean this isn't something that is new or hidden, look at the Codex as just one of a thousand examples.

Ok I am a blunt person. I will say this as plainly as I can.

First of all I am not a vampire, nor do I play any roleplaying games.

A person can agree with several people that are all thinking completely different things. That doesn't make anything contradictory, it is just common sense. Billy says trees are green. I agree. Bob says trees may be green but there is purple sap bleeding from the trunk. I don't agree. Byron says yes he agrees with Billy as well but sap is clear. I agree with that too. It doesn't make my view about the tree being green any less relevant and it doesn't mean I am debating something with Bob because I didn't agree or hold a difference of opinion with him.

I believe there are so many roleplayers out there within the vampire/lifestylers community because of games like Vampire the Masquerade.
In Fresno, there were numerous people that would always go play that game and they would dress up in vampire attire, and they would play it so much that they would start dressing like that on a regular basis and calling themselves vampires. An actual real vampire coven would laugh at these people.

No one has to prove anything to me at all, but it will take more than, "I'm a vampire and I was born in 1748 and I drink blood" to make me even think they are legit.

Now, you want to talk covens? Okay I can do that.

A legitimate coven is one that has hived off from another and so forth. A legitimate coven is one that can be traced back to the original coven or founder. As long as the lineage can be proven of the coven and founder of the tradition itself, then it is a legitimate coven and there is no need to get permission from every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the community.

I was initiated into the Georgian Tradition of the craft. I am a 2* working towards my 3*. I was trained in the Children of Luna coven based in Fresno, California. My High Priest/Teacher is Lord DesertFox. His HP/Teacher was Lord Bacchus. And his HP/teacher was the founder of the Georgian tradition Pat Patterson himself. Our lineage is recorded and can be traced. If you feel the need to question my legitimacy, please feel free to contact any one of my elders on the contact page at www.georgianwicca.com The name is LeAnn Jones (Modesty)

"By your own admission anyone can open a coven with no permission needed by an outside force... so then how do you gain the status of legitimacy??"
You had originally wrote this: "I have a real world coven and when starting up or adding a chapter anywhere the first and single most important thing is to ensure that your community will allow you to build a society there."

If you are speaking of the community in general I would say no. It is none of their business. If you are speaking of the vampire community or the witch community then I would say to an extent. For instance, right now I cannot hive off and start a Georgian coven here in Arkansas until I reach 3*. As a 2* I can initiate up to that degree but I cannot teach Georgian lessons as they are oathbound. I can start an eclectic coven and teach the basics of the craft to those that are interested, but it has no lineage back to the Georgians. It would be just eclectic. While it would be a legitimate Eclectic coven because of my age and previous training, it would not be legit to the Georgians. Nor to the Gardnerians. Nor to the Faery trad, etc. Only I would be legit and could have my lineage traced back. When I reach 3* I need the permission of my elders to start a Georgian coven.

You did not make it clear of what community you were speaking of.

"I don't know where you got the idea that opening a coven was some how like opening a masonic lodge or other small business where by permit and licenses would be required, but that's not how we do things."

Like I said above you mentioned community and you failed to explicate further the intentions of your words. A Masonic Lodge requires land to build on, whereas that requires a building permit, etc. "But that's not how we do things." "We", is all of us in general if you want to get technical. And since you did not specify, I treated it as how it was worded.

Yes it is called an underground for a reason. And if you would have read my original words to you, "Unless you are constructing a Masonic Lodge, Order of the Eastern Star temple, or a Universal Life Church, a witch or vampire coven does not need local community permission or to even be told. A coven is not a church, therefore it does not need any type of community service. Covens hold their meetings and rituals in private, out of the community's eye. A coven is a secret group of people gathering to perform rituals that the rest of society deem as an unfit or unproper belief." you would have plainly saw that I said, "Local Community permission..."

The Pagan community is alot bigger than the vampire community. And I am not knocking the vampire culture at all, but it is a fact. Paganism in general is world wide just as the vampire community and yes covens exist in even the smallest towns that aren't on maps, and then there are solitarys and fam trads that keep to themselves. It is everywhere. Each tradition has laws and bylaws and even eclectics have certain laws they go by.

My dear friend Severus, there is nothing to debate. Obviously I do not know what you know about vampire covens, and you stated you do not know how things are done in witch covens. I am sure we can help each other out. I find what you have written very informative and I only hope I have been or can be helpful and informative to you in the future.

Quote:
" For instance, right now I cannot hive off and start a Georgian coven here in Arkansas until I reach 3*....

.... "When I reach 3* I need the permission of my elders to start a Georgian coven."

So your basically going to get the permission of your Elders to start a coven within a community for which they may have no claim to.
What of the Elders that are already within this community.... what of their laws and traditions??
None of that matters I guess... because you don't need there permission to move in and set yourself up.

Look never mind, may statements stand for themselves, and were intended to give an answer to the original query of this thread, so follow this advice or don't.

Your advice to some may be followed. But in a witch coven, you get permission from the elders of that tradition. The local community (a community is the entire town or district including all churches, schools, etc.) doesn't need to know about it. Unless you are a non-profit organization or setting up some sort of shop to sell something your community does not need to know about it.
You are making it seem like I have to go down to the courthouse to let them know I am a member of a Georgian coven and that I need their permission to be a member and go about my coven related business.

You say you have a real world coven, so tell us about that then. How did you go about it? Did you go to the local community meeting and let the good townsfolk know you were starting a vmpire coven?

There is alot of learning that needs to be done here. Take that advice or leave it.

do you mean a witch coven or vamp? not all covens (or witches) are wiccan.
this may already have been handled but if it was i missed it.

each coven has different traditions and rules.

as for 13...it comes from christian tradition. christ had himself and 12 followers. as he was the good, then the bad (and any non christian MUST be bad, right?) also emulate him.

as for vamps use of the word coven...
i dont really give a rats tailend about what roleplayers and such use as their terms. i think they sometimes say the word "the" but that doesnt mean im dropping it from my vocabulary. i still spell spell vampire without a y, i know of several vampire covens in the houston area, and i am head of a house as well.
and for us, its by invite only.
~W~

im kinda confused dam me bing a blond


so if i go and want to start a coven , do i need to ask for primission even if i do not belong to any socitys

which i mean a vampire coven

if you mean in the real world, then i suggest you just do it. things will tend to fall into place
~W~

Severus didn't make himself clear with the whole witch or vampire thing.

And yes I know the difference all too well between a witch and wiccan.

I was speaking from my experience in a craft coven, which I stated in one of my posts. Maybe no one cares to read entire posts on here.

Oh well. That's enough drama for the day.

when there are alot of posts, and one only has a short time to be online, one cant always read back over all the previous posts.
sorry about that.
~W~

There was a time where I was a Druid, and created my own Grove. It's still around, but I am no longer affiliated, as I have left Ireland.





1. if you have founded a coven how did you go about doing it?

It actually started with a few friends, like-minded individuals who had an interest in Bardic music. We'd sit around, having fun playing the Pipes and writing some Bardic music together. Then more and more people wanted to be a part of it. So we said 'sure, the more the merrier'. The others knew of my interest in the Druid Deities, and wanted to know more about them, so I started teaching the others about the Dagda, Danu, Domnu, the Children of Danu, the Children of Domnu, etc. And pretty soon, we started researching the Druid religion. I was a practitioner, but at that time, I was not practicing with anyone. That changed after that little Grove was created.




2. how have you made it work?

It worked because it was self-governed. All of us were close friends. It was not a 'closed' Grove. But not a lot knew about it, so we didn't get many outsiders. There was no 'Leader of the Rituals', no High Priest or Priestess, each of us would take turns running a set ritual, and etc. One week one girl would be the Maiden. Another week, another girl would be the Maiden, and so on and so on.


3. how did you get the word out about it?

I've already answered this partially. But more in depth: We didn't really discuss it with others. Just friends. And friends of friends who wanted to be part of 'something different' that didn't resemble the Catholic or Catharic Faith.



4. how did you find out about a coven?

I didn't. I created my Grove with various friends.


5. what are the warning signs to look for before you join a coven or take some in?


These didn't really apply to me, and I've never really be in any other.

1. if you have founded a coven how did you go about doing it?

2. how have you made it work?

3. how did you get the word out about it?

4. how did you find out about a coven?

5. what are the warning signs to look for before you join a coven or take some in?


a1-being a founder of a coven or any group based on tradition and practice is not a easy or simple thing,it takes alot of time and effort in getting it off the ground

a2-usually making one work is done through it's members by word of mouth and by having successful weekly/monthly meetings

a3-word out,that is easy most people these days can do this by having open meetings with meetups,the hard thing is making sure you find the right members that you are looking for

a4-i have found out about covens and other groups in many ways,some where based on internet sites which had a listing of "authentic" groups such as fellowship of isis among other sites,also through just meeting and talking with people you find out.

the problem is finding people to join if you start your own little, group,coven,organization, etc.

its hard to find people that would be appropriate, let alone that live near you

oh I totally agree with that. I am here in Arkansas of all places and it's very hard to find people of like mind around here.

thats why you have to have a great deal of patience and just put yourself out their in networking your organization in the real world.attend seminars,meetings et etc and get the word out if you want the group to grow.

@NamaahFelenora yes but I am a city with 617,334 people in it.

I SHOULD be able to find someone.

1. if you have founded a coven how did you go about doing it?

I founded a coven along with two of my friends, we are all eclectic in nature and it is a magick based coven and our members are all "vampires". To go about it you need to have firm grip on the theological basis your going to base it on or else your just a group of mates who get together a few times a month.

2. how have you made it work?

By putting in hours and hours of hard work, study, patience and determination. It took 5 years to become established in occult circles and we are still esoteric in nature.

3. how did you get the word out about it?

We didn't. If you have a will to do something like this the right type of people seem to come along at the right time and just fall into place.

4. how did you find out about a coven?

We didn't we founded it! but i hear about other covens through pagan meetings and gatherings

5. what are the warning signs to look for before you join a coven or take some in

Before joining you need to make sure that you get to know the members well. Avoid online covens as these can be founded by anyone with a cut and paste tool. Also if your new coven works ritual make sure you are comfortable with there style because some like to work skyclad (naked) and some even involve ritual sex(yes it does go on). If your joining a new coven who suggest that you should have sex to become initiated or for any other reason run like merry hell!

yes, I agree with what to look for in the coven.

The lack of substantive information in this thread shows how few people that are here on VR real are. Pitty, I had hoped for more than witches brew on a vampire website.