The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

The VR manual clearly states that only an individual who has earned the rank of Sire may Start a Coven. But do you think that this precludes one who is not of the rank of Sire from "taking over" an account of a Sire and assuming the position of CM? Or, do you think that this would violate the "spirit" of the manual, in that the one who assumes the account of a Sire HAS NOT earned the rank? Please feel free to voice your opinions.

A matter of ethics perhaps. in such a case the intent would be a significant factor. If the recipient of the account has another account that they leveled up, then I would reason that their is sufficient prerequisite to do so.

A person just coming to the rave, or returning after ditching with a lower ranked profile.. I would see them as attempting to muscle
protocol, I would suspect them to practice shady, unethically as a coven master as well.

If the intent is to keep fellow members together, and the founder is versed in the site protocol then , it will show in the covens behavior, and PR.

Covens are popping out of the wood work.

It is frustrating when someone acquires a high ranking account, and they maybe have only been here a few months. If you want to become an acolyte then you have to take a test, perhaps Cancer should start a screening /testing of any member who would like to open a coven. This way it will show if they have been here some time or just a few months, it will show if they know TOS and VR manual. Now here is a good question, since so many here have more than one account, can they or should they be allowed to open a coven if they already have a coven.

Frankly I think the ability to create a coven should go to the creative and not bassed on time/money spent. IMHO

Those who require a sire's account and don't have a account of their own, just joined and isn't in a coven yet I believe that they should have to wait a period of time which is up to the CMs of the coven or house they are in and alliiance associated with it to decide if they are ready and able to start one of their own
We don't know if the said person was already a sire or close to being a sire before they left VR and either deleted their account or passed it on
Who are we to say they must be here for a specific time or to write a test I have been with VR since March and with my coven since the beginning of April and have earned in this very short time all positions except ACM in my opinion if you have a account you have created and worked on and is given a Sire's account you have only one option keep both if you can financially afford the memberships if not turn it down or gift to someone else if you plan on deleting your account now have a Sire's account or giving it away then Cancer should not allow them create a coven till they have reached a certain level as they did nothing to achieve that level
hopefully makes sense

The quality of such a coven will show after a few months. sadly other covens could suffer from an "overly ambitious' CM, The mentality of.. "what until they see how I CM" comes into play, and overt, or unintentional slights begin, because as mentioned the member bypassed the previous steps.. to often people granted status, or means to status, abuse that station. They also eventually face the consequences. Though their are exceptions to this.

Bottom line is, there's nothing that states that it's against the rules for someone to give his or her account to another member regardless of level.

An age old matter with "Money People", did the person earn their fortune, or did they inherit the fortune, and how is the Heir excepted among the Earners, and visa-versa.

It comes to the case by case factor.

Just a throw out thought.
I would wonder what their level was before they were given the account.

In the "spirit" of things, I don't think someone who takes over or buys a Sire level account should be able to.

I honestly don't think accounts should be for sale or transferable, but I can see how there really isn't a way to prevent it, especially if the account is premium.

However I also think that most covens are pointless and meaningless - just rehashed little popularity clubs with limited participation. Too many coven masters make it to Sire and still don't know enough about VR to lead anyone. But then again, I have the same opinion of mentorships.

That being said, my official opinion on the topic is, whatever. Covens will always come and go, regardless of how the "Sire" obtained that status.

Honestly, I fail to see how it matters. Person leaves VR, they give their account away. What difference should it truly make if the account was Sire or not? If the person didn't want their coven run by someone else, wouldn't you think they would simply DISBAND it?

People cheat to get ahead on this site all the time. Someone acquiring a sire account out of the blue and running a coven is going to happen. It's not like it's unheard of, obviously. But it can't be stopped either. So why even bring it up?

Personally, i wouldn't trade my time here, and the things i learned during leveling up on this site and make it as a coven master. It is great for the one who gains from a sire level account, but on the same coin who isn't as aware of all the little lovelys vr has that being here so long brings. I love the littlest things of vr. Like working my butt off to reach siredom....3 times. And the honor that alone brings. Something many of us do understand, hard for me to believe that someone that was 'given' such account would see or feel persay.

I'm with wolfwhisperer on this one. I don't care what anyone else does here unless what they do is interesting. If they can be creative and keep it fun and intriguing, more power to them.

I'm with xRobin3X, I haven't been here long, but over the last 2 months, I have been working my ass off just to get to level 47... It has not been easy, and it kind of upsets me to see someone being handed a sired account... I find it to be bs...

Personally I don't give a damn either way.....the new leveling system sucks......you have to bust your ass just to make it one level higher...hmm, maybe I can bribe someone who has 3 profiles with a sires rank on all them, buy them a new premium membership, then have them pass one of them sire profiles on to me, that's an Idea.

Even if it isn't against the rules to give someone an account then obviosuly one can take over over a Sire's account and run a Coven. However, that begs the question because in my humble opinion a person who takes over a Sire's account, if not aother Sire, is indeed not a Sire at all.

Really people, is this what's being cried about now?

I have given away 2 sire accounts and 2 covens along with those accounts. Both of which, are still open and active.

Premium member or not, you do not own or operate this site. This is Cancer's site, period. You think he doesn't know what goes on here? You think he doesn't know that a whelp can obtain a sire account and a coven?

I know this thread is about The Dark Network and all but, it's such a foolish question. Everybody who knows this site, knows this goes on. Why whine about it?

We whine, therefore we are.

If leveling were easy, everyone would be sire. If it came that easy, there would be very little appreciation for it.

The status system exists as it does for several reasons - if you fail to see any of them, you're doing it wrong.

I see it as a case by case matter. A traditional member will note the profiles contribution to the site. I am certain a percentage of those who short cut via inheriting an account have spite as a factor in their agenda.

Such a person is exposed by their actions.. or lack of action.

If we look at the previous original profile of a "fast tracked" person, and it is lacking in merit, then we can predict the coven will be shallow, and superficial.

What of people who have time restrictions, I can see how such a transaction would benefit anyone associated with that person..

A chance to "escape" a deteriorating coven.

its just like anything in real life...i may have a business i no longer want to run, and give it away to a friend...regaurdless of if they know how to run it or not...my other friends may not agree or be mad at me but it was my choice to give the opportunity away....

the main issue should be that they are assuming to be someone else if they dont change the name on the profile...kinda like identity theft in a way if all members are not aware of the change.

I think is a member does buy an account or acquires one in what ever way then said member should wait 28 levels before being able to create a coven, thus going back to the old 28 level, this giving them time to read up one how VR works. As all of us on here had to earn Sire level to submit a coven. I dont think it fair for someone to be given a coven. Without knowing the ropes.

No, it's not fair. But that's life, isn't it?

The only way you know if someone has purchased/recieved a sire account is by they stating the fact or changing the profile picture, ja? So, how can we do this 28 lvl probationary period if we have to wait for the person/s to fess up?

Dabbler, I think you made some sort of comment to what I said. The point I was getting at was that a good leader isn't always the person that is on the most friends list, has the highest level, or the most "protected by" images. I am in no way saying this because of some self longing to be a CM. I have just been on this site, on and off, for the past 10 years and I know that is how things work here. That is the reason why they made different "Sire" lvl's and made those lvl's harder to get? So people can say, "Well I have been here and logged on for 10 years straight, so I am ready for a coven." (gigglesnort, just a bit of silliness in that comment)

Here's my opinion.

Should someone who knows NOTHING about how to work the Society system have a coven? No. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Look around! People are starting covens every day, if it's liked or not it happens. Some of the masters rely on their ACM staff because they have less knowledge and experience though it's arguable they shouldn't have the coven OR the account they're on. A sire account should never be sold, and it cheapens the experience for the one who gains it if given- but it happens anyway. I have 4 accounts, 2 were created by me. One will be Sire as I push but the point remains- it happens all the time. Don't like it? No one is forcing you to log in all the time, are they?

WolfWhisperer, i think everything is documented, sires who have Covens, need cancers permission to transfer that to another member. Therefore being able to impose some sanction, However i have been away for a bit, and this being able to buy Sire status that ive heard in this thread is new to me? Unless ive misunderstood 'buying Sire'?

To clarify, the conversation with transferring a coven was by means of giving away the sire account. Friends of mine have done so, but to those who were either Sires already or have experience with the system. I'm ok with that at least.

i think that to become Sire, one should earn the right by raising levels through hard work. however, i have no problem either with someone who takes over a high level profile if its within the TOS, but i do wonder if that person would make a good sire because surely experience is better for Masters, and ultimately their coven members?

What harm is done?

Perhaps to some an affront to their personal sensibilities.

What is the offense? Violation of 'the spirit of the site" .

Perhaps some feel that such issues depreciate the site.

Is it a matter of site Integrity? Case by case the acquired profile/member stands on its/their own merit. Is it abusive?

In a way I suspect that some are worried about the Coven rating curve, and position. more covens to detract from their current member numbers. Then there is the extra snatchers of available accounts for inductions..

Trep, If I wanted my boyfriend to log into my profile right now, I would just have to give him my password. He can then log into it, unbeknownst to the other members, forever...if he wishes. Now, if he doesn't change the picture, or state that he is not me, how does Cancer know. That was my point. I am sure there are a few sire accounts here that just been "traded" with Cancer none the wiser.

ummm... i think 'integrity' may be the key word here :)

And the speed of leveling is horrendous now. I am already on more friends lists (have more "friends") than I ever did 9 years ago, but my leveling is going at a snails pace. I never did like to post on the Sandbox threads. I visit about as many profiles as my brain can stand, when I do get away from my real life to log in. Is there a special "Cancer" button I have to press, or kiss.

Seriously, Cancer, you need pressing? *giggle*

Well I was given a sire acct but it was already well after a year or so of already had reached sire on this acct. As far as covens, I would agree with what has already been stated about having to take a test.

Well i'm just gonna put my two cents here on this subject. I'm a High Sire and I have my own De'Morte I got my coven the old fashion way I worked for it I've been here 3 years I joined april 07 and I got my coven in Dec. 07 with hard work because back then you had to do alot more than just have time spent and pages viewd it was alot harder. So yea when I see a new member get a sire's account from someone and they go and open a coven it kind of pissed me off but then I stop and think about it. I dont have that kind of personal dis-honor because i worked for mine like alot of others did. So I can step back take a look of what I built and be proud of it because I put in the work to get where I'm at. In closing if anyone who got a sire's account and has a coven because of if you had any self respect for your self and your members you'd close shop get rid of that free sire account you got and work for your right to be called a Sire and a Coven Master

To all those sires out there who got their sire status and coven master position by having it handed to you, I say:


CONGRATULATIONS! The system that has been established here, is a good one and you have used that system to your advantage.


In real life, people get walked on, stepped over and cheated all the time. Why should VR be any different?

All of you here complaining about this should be ashamed of yourselves. I see this as the same as whining about forced induction. And although forced induction is law on this site, I see this issue (discussed in this thread) as unwritten law. Cancer and the administration of VR know it happens and maybe it is allowed because in society, people are often times given higher positions when they don't deserve it and haven't earned it.

Well I think, that if they get a sire account and can handle that level and a coven without completely dishonoring themselves and their coven far be it from me to tell them no!

I have been here 4 years and I'm taking my sweet time to level lots of you have been here less time and are higher, I am not whining so you shouldn't either!

May I also point out that when the status system changed, some people's status went down, while other's went up in status.

Why did some people's status go up? Because, they got the bonuses. And what is a bonus? To me, it is something given, over and above what is earned. Like a Christmas bonus given at work.

Your "real" status is your base score (time spent and pages viewed).

Everyone has levels of status that are just bonuses, given by Cancer when he updated the status system.

I find it funny that no one is complaining about that here.

I have a problem with people who take things like this so seriously. It is a game and a social network. I think it should be up to the individual who owns the profile to dispose of it as they see fit. I don't know what anyone means by knowing all this stuff. Yes it helps if you know your way around coding and such things but beyond that, what's there to know except rules? That can be done in a very short time by just sitting down and reading them. There is no point in my opinion in getting upset about it unless one is jealous. I don't see why it is being discussed at all, personally. Who cares. It sounds a lot like my nine year old grandson who incessantly says that's not fair.

Well, jealous is what i am not. Rules can always be read and learned. Yes. But where i am coming from is, i feel there would be more respect to a person who earned the sirehood the hard way then to some one who was 'Given' an account at siredom.

Blood tastes sweeter after a challenging hunt.

Everyone here has made interesting and very valid points. If you made Sire on your own and started your own coven I say congratulations. You pushed your way up the system and made it to the top so to speak. Depending on what role you played in your past affiliations you either learned a great deal or you didn't. Being an ACM in multiple covens has taught me a great deal, all of which I used in the creation and maintenance of my coven, Shadowed Angels. Some see it as dishonor to take over a Sire account and coven with it, but I only partially agree with that. After all, if a coven was only designed to be run by it's originating Sire would there not be the option to TRANSFER a coven from one sire to another? I think not actually.

Now if I personally was given a Sire account with a coven attached, I would trade out all members and favors then disband. Why? I did not create it.

I personally worked for my sire and coven the hard way. And I do tend to agree that by passing the initiation so to speak is unethical in my books.

However it belongs to me and I do with it what I wish. If I should happen to leave I would give my profile and coven to someone who has sire already.

I do understand that some of you like to "earn" your status (as do I). But, there are those (on occasion) who get offered a chance to skip levels and become sires themselves and possibly coven masters. To me, they deserve just as much respect as any other sire and coven master. Why? Because, at the end of the day, they ARE sires, their profiles say so. Whining and crying about it here isn't going to change that fact.

To disband a coven that was given to you is stupid. Why not take that coven and develop it into something of your own creation? Also, maybe the members of that coven are happy there and don't want it disbanded.

Let's not also forget the fact that, you are a pretend sire, of a pretend coven, in the VR world of make believe and haven't really "earned" anything.

pretend sire, of a pretend coven?????

ok, It is a online group....it is the internet.... yes

But for some of us believe in taking our lives and sharing it, online. We don't take it so light heartedly.

And care in what we have done.... online.

No one is saying that the information shared on profiles is pretend but, this is all fantasy. You aren't really a sire of anything.

I mean really, when you apply for a job, do you include on a resume that you are a sire and master of a coven on VR?

You are a member of a real social networking site that much is fact. But, you have no real power. The power you do have is limited in every way by the creator of the site.

And just to add, I do take this seriously. I just don't take it as seriously as others.

I would have to agree with your previous long post xRobin3x.

My main point here is that people get stepped over all the time, it happens. Am I saying it's right or that's the way it should be, no. But, it happens.

Yes, virtual on the computer. Fantasy in the mind.

In perspective it is fair to assess the matter case by case.

I don't see this as a prolific issue on the site.

I have seen people (on a poetry site) create multiple accounts so they could rate their atrocious poems into the spotlight.

Intent needs to be considered, anyone with foul intent stands to be exposed, and made a social Peoria.

What if a profile with an Advocate Badge was offered to another member (who had no real exposure to the site)? I could see the cons of that.

I can see the potential situations that could arise from a "fast track profile'.

I see how some harbor personal distaste as well, as I mentioned covens are grudging over matters as it is. Someone feeling cheated out of something they feel entitled to (inductions, coven status). One more 'ill gotten' profile starting a coven does not steal the whole show. As far as those who are of dubious intent, they dwell in houses made of cards, they will grow bored, and those they appeal to will become subject to their impulsive behavior.

i do agree that sire should be earned and covens should be earned as well

By some members doing the "Sale", that take the fun away of being a CM. One, because the person did not work hard to get to the level of sire and two, because in immoral just to think that a person, who is a sire, can do such of "Sale".

I feel that newbies and those belong level 25 should not be granted a sire membership unless they have a second profile higher that they have levelled themselves as i believe they do not have enough experience with coven life and should not be able to create a coven unless they can prove that they do

If a member sales a profile, the level should start from the begining and if they are a CM of a coven or house, the title should be stripped away.

Doru you said what I was thinking... Then again you always know what to say...

Ok. So name names who is a pretend Sire in one of these Covens?

Again I ask what is the damage?

What does a fast track member detract from the site?

I agree with that question Dab.

What harm has it caused? And, if you're not a member of that coven, tell me how that affects you? Or, why is it even any of your business?

Cancer set up VR in a way that it is possible to occur. Apparently he doesn't have that much of a problem with it.

Time spent and effort put forth are very different things. There are several factors that make up a Good CM (and I'm sure to drop a few for clarity and concision), active knowledge of the site, a distinct purpose/direction for their coven, decent managerial skills (including the ability to delegate effectively), creativity and access (be it their own knowledge or a collection of others') to applicable content. Gathering these qualities does not take the length of time need to gain the rank of sire and some people are just better for the job then those presented with the opportunity. The biggest issue is understanding the ins and outs of the site, including the TOS but also the past and current politics of the site. Once this is achieved I have absolutely no problem with a person taking the reins of a society. I applaud one who has the courage and foresight to acknowledge that they are not particularly suited to the task they've been bestowed. I always prefer quality of purpose and product over quantity of friends snatched and time spent, and I very much do think that that is exactly in the spirit of VampireRave.

LadyPatricia said: that a good hunt enhances taste....

i couldnt agree more.


so, how does that fast track thing work anyway?
~W~

The member that gifts the profile is being demonized in the process.

They worked hard to level up the profile, and when they are no longer able to maintain their profile they opt to gift it.

I reason that they are selective in their gifting as well.


I am remember when a prize for a contest was a Sire Leveled profile.

I agree Dab. I gave away two sire profiles and two covens with them. One went to a person who was already a sire and had a coven on another profile. The other went to a dear friend, who was level 92 and had been on the site from almost the beginning of the creation of the site.

In the 1951 movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still," Klaatu is the humanoid alien that lands in Washington with the robot Gort. He tells the humans that they must stop their warlike ways, or Gort will be forced to destroy the planet. His people don't want a dangerous race to mature and infect the galaxy with our craziness.

Klaatu is befriended by an Earthwoman, Helen Benson. When the trouble starts (humans start acting like they might think they can take him and Gort on), he tells Helen what to do if Klaatu is hurt or killed. If that happens, Gort will blow up the Earth, unless he is commanded not to. Helen must say, "Gort, Klaatu barada nikto," to the robot.

Klaatu is of course shot, and she says the words to Gort. Gort grabs the body, reanimates Klaatu, and they leave, saying they'll give us a few years to get our act together. Otherwise, they'll be back to take us out.

So, the answer to the OP is that it means, in some alien tongue, "Klaatu doesn't want the planet atomized, and he'd like you to bring him back to life, if you'd be so kind."

Naming people who got an account from a Sire who didn't earn it? I hope you're seriously asking for that in a main forum. If they want to reveal themselves, they will it's not the place of others to 'out' them.

Just the thread alone is 'sweating" them.

Portraying them as a villain. I am sure that if the person was scandalous that the dirt would be dished..

Dabbler, I believe you might be right in the sweating department.

So do you think it would be ethical to auction off a Sire's account. And by auction I am talking something of value, such as money.

I guess I'm just failing to see how someone obtaining an account regardless of level affects anyone else.

If someone obtains an account that is already Sire regardless if it's a Coven Master or just a regular sire.... as long as there are no malicious intents involved, there is nothing wrong with gifting an account like that.

I agree that it's best to obtain Sire status on your own because it's rewarding to some people. Someone gave me a lifetime membership account that was already Sired........ and I wasn't going to say no.

I think it's a matter of perspective and opinion here. And it's not against any rules.

The only way it would affect someone else is, if that profile is a Coven Master profile. Then, it could have affects on the members of that coven. But, other than that, there is really no way it would affect someone else.

Also say, the rating ability of that profile is higher because it is a sire account. But, that doesn't even really matter. Unless you're worried about a sire coming along and rating you low.

Coven is as coven does. I think that fact that some are calling out said giftees means that they can't tell if certain covens are the property of someone that wasn't their original creator. This also means that the coven is being ran no different than it was before. So, what's the problem? It isn't like this gifted coven/sires are running rampant and overtaking VR as the new owners. They aren't causing any new harm.

Exactly. This isn't some huge epidemic going on here. VR may have one or two coven masters that weren't the original master of said coven. So, what's the issue?

Personally, I believe it to be jealousy. (that's just my opinion) Do I believe that everyone here complaining about this is jealous? No but, I do believe that some are.

Jealous of what? That someone got something and didn't have to work near as hard to get it.

I say, so what. It happens every day and just about everywhere. Stop being so concerned with what everyone else has and how they got it. Be happy with what you have and what you have done.

When all is said and done it's all about being able to stand back and be proud of what you've done on VR by all the hard work and time and creativty. Because thats what it's all about. Cancer made it so we had to be a Sire before we could have a coven for a reason. I'm sure when he had the idea to have covens he ment for the lvl to be high so members could work for it . And he made it the way he did so it wouldn't be to easy to obtain that lvl of sire. But no matter how you got your coven or sire account it's all about your own personal self pride.

Even if this is just a site you still show what kind of person you are.

I can agree with parts of that.

But still, I'm not going to base my thoughts of a person's character on how they got to sire on this site. That's far too shallow.

If people fret over their covens standings, then why not blame a 'rogue CM'. Scapegoating.

LMAO Dab!!!

I really can't believe that anyone on this site is that concerned with their coven's standing. I'm sorry but, if their life is that uneventful, that's really sad.

i feel sorry for the coven members that are losing what they earned and gained through hard work while the coven is going to hell because you have people in a coven with no clue on how to run one

Then as i stated earlier it will wilt on its own vine. The fruit of a Tree grown for the wrong reasons.

I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong please, that this ties in with a previous thread of alleged abuse of induction, and trades.

I think you're on to something there Dab. For a time there (and it may still be going on) it seemed that certain CMs were asking a rediculous price for inactive to moderately active members.

Although, I know of some CMs who earned their way from whelp to sire and also ask crazy amounts of favor for this type of member.

if was in any way against the vr manual, faq, tos or even the spirit of them, then Cancer would not have not encourage and supported and advertise auctions for Sire's account.

He did, so, he knows and stand by his rules.

The rules are clear.

Sire=coven option.

No Sire= no coven options.

Simple as that.

Truthfully I have had 10 or more accounts here in 10 years- some are still active with new users. That's part of what makes the name change option so useful. Sire or not, it's not against the rules to give an account away so long as the new user is a PM on another or doesn't have an account. The point remains that if the rules were being broken with this don't you think Cancer would have suspended Sire accounts for it? THAT is my point.

Coorection... not 10 years but 2. Typo....

That's just it LordZacharias, it is now being viewed by some members as a lack of character in the person recieving the high level account.

I am quite sure that you don't question the moral character of those people to whom you have bestowed profiles on.

I, being one of those people.

Good point. Usually when I dropped the ones I gave away it was because I had no time to focus on them. Some were self-referred while some weren't. I know of a few who want a Sire account for their own reasons but that's not important. Now, in terms of judging a person's character for taking an account- what's the point? They're taking over someone's existing account, not stealing it. Like it says in the signup text for VR- you're getting something for free.

Exactly. They are being given a gift. Whether it is high status or low makes no difference.

And I'm glad you brought up that it's not like it's a stolen profile (which is a totally seperate matter).

I think the person who got this sire account is lucky... I'd take it if someone gave it to me.... so I can't be upset... and hey... if they do a good job running the coven, then what's the issue.... this is the internet... not real life... we have to remember that... Even if it were real life... people get randomly promoted all the time to often times amazing positions... but if they do a good job leading the people under them.... how can you say they are NOT a Sire?.... it's just a position...

VR isn't a religion... it's a website....

Level means nothing, it happens all the time. So what if the person gave an account away with a coven open? They were simply going to stop logging in which would have seen it disbanded by default. They decided to give it away, the new user didn't just STEAL the account. Now as for the character of the person who takes it.... no point in even trashing them. Judge not lest thee be judged yourself. In getting pissy about the fact that a Sire gave up his/her account you're acting like a spoiled child.

I think it doesn't violate the spirit if the original CM voluntarily gives up the position to another.

WolfWhisperer~~~~you couldn't possibly of been a member here 10 years nor 9 as you mentioned. This site hasn't been here that long.

*********************************

I have given away 2 Sire profiles, to members that have been on the site for longer than I have been, they earned them in their own ways and I would never give an account to someone I didn't feel deserved it.

But when it comes to newer members getting a gift Sire account and opening a Coven etc....I will admittedly say that I have less respect for them. I feel it needs to be earned in SOME way.

In the long run I really don't care too much as it really doesn't affect me or the way I do things. The proof is in the pudding you know. They will either prosper or fail.

My 2 cents , simply I was here before and deleted my old account I was at a level 80 or so .. someone asked for my account but I didnt feel I should give someone something I worked hard on and they only need to put alil work into it to become sire .
I have learned alot by leveling up and spending as much time as I have on VR . I dont think if I came in as a Newbie and was given a Siren account I would know what to do with it .. I know I wouldnt deserve the respect .. because it was handed to me ... I think when we work hard for something it becomes a part of us and we value it so much more .
I am close to Sire now but I know I still have alot to learn ... I will continue to learn and grow for as long as I am on Vr ..
Now if someone wants to give me a million dollars I'll gladly take it off your hands *LOL*

Ok I am gonna put in my opinion as well. I agree that hard work and time is very good for anyone to become a Sire and Master of any House or Coven. YET, many fail to see that just because it was gifted does not mean that said person who recieved it is not and cannot become a great Coven master, I for one feel I am a good Cm and I was gifted my Coven and sireship. I took it hell yes Itook it and I ahve been here for almost 6years myself originally been in Houses and Covens help build them and add to them etc. So I cannot say it is wrong to gift one to a peson, because each one is different. If Cancer did not want to change the Cm over and allow them to run the coven or house then well I do believe he would of put a stop to the whole gifting thing a longggg time ago.

What was said for building character, and respect. I agree, yet who are you or anyone to say if that person has not already earned the level of sire without actually leveling up 1 acct. to a Sire. I do know many on here as I do will create and make profiles, thn make them premium and pass them to people all the time, is that saying we are bad members for gifting a Sireship to another for any reason?

I just feel that unless you really know the person why would you judge them, there has been many Cm's on here that have been here for a very long time and their Covens still folded, time and work for them still did not make them a good CM.
Plus with out our members in our Covens and House we are nothing. So I feel that the members of the Houses and Covens are who make them succeed, not just a sire who is a Master.

just my feelings.

Well said, Ronnie.

My view of becoming a CM as a newbie is that the CM WILL have his/her faults. As a friend of mine said earlier to me in a private conversation: ACM teaches you a great deal about the system- the rest you'll have learn as a Coven/House Master. I have been an ACM in a few different places and I still am on different accounts- being one from my view in a sense teaches you the 'politics' of the system, if you will- that is something that a new face on VR may not even know to deal with.

i see your points but what about taking a coven and destorying it for god only knows why and on top of it using another sire to do so

The implication that a person has infringed on something leaves me to continue to ask, What is infringed upon?

I suspect there is an underlying issue here.

Some here feel personally wronged.

Yet as a Vampire site, someone practices Vampirism (in a technical manner) and people become unglued.)

I have read journals, and even Kismet of a member mocking others that were miffed at them gaining a Sire account.

How likely would it be for those same people to be miffed an acquaintance benefiting from an account.

I can see how a person gaining an admin profile would be an issue, but the idea that the "spirit" of the VR rules is being violated.. just hints to me that something more personal is going on.

Which indicates that the individual in possession of the 'offending' account is scoring points, and accomplishing alleged agenda.

So again I ask, is one more coven really that much of an infringement on another coven? I am sure their are 'legit' CMs, that operate in a gray area, yet in this case their is a route issue available to reproach the alleged violator.

The CM has all power in the coven. If that CM chooses to destroy said coven, that is their business. I'm not saying it's fair but, that's the nature of the site.

It's really no different than forced induction. You have no choice if you're not a sire.

Dab,

I don't know if this hits the "heart" of what you're getting at but...

In my opinion, all sires and CMs are legit (as long as they're within the rules of VR).

If one feels cheated because of an action, which did not concern them in the first place, too bad.

This is like a bad political debate. All sides slinging "mud" and it is truly sad.

well a coven master has earned the right to have the coven. not the acm of that coven that has no clue on how to run one. that they bring in a some other person to ruin it and the true coven master is getting phone calls about helping them because they wish to leave before the coven is destoryed by people who shouldnt have it.

That doesn't matter. If a sire/CM chooses to give his/her profile to an ACM, that ACM becomes sire/CM.

And whatever that sire/CM chooses to do with said coven is their business.

Am I saying it's fair? No but, that's the way it is.

Here's a question that might fit in here...

Since so many people here are so concerned about "earning" sireship. How do you feel about so many members of VR asking for help getting to sire? (i.e. Help me get to sire, please add me and my journal)

Is that not a form of "cheating" by the standard set in this thread?

FYI: I'm not against this although, I don't do it myself. Just making a point.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.