The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

Cancer, ElderDaniel, and I have been having discussions in the thread titled This Site. Since the discussions we are having has nothing to do with site development, and more to do with sparking the brain I have decided to move the conversation here.

Everyone is welcome to throw his or her two cents in. I love diversity and learning other’s thoughts on subjects. I personally am extremely thick skinned and headed. Nobody’s post will offend me even though you may find me playing devil’s advocate just to keep a thread alive.

I do run out of questions from time to time and would love to have others throw theirs in.

Do to the subject of vampires, zombies, and demons I am fully aware religious discussions will occur. Please do not take offense, flame, or get on a soapbox for more than a couple of posts. My intention is to hear opinions but not offend Cancer’s guests. Don’t make him send us both to final death.

With that said, on with the festivities.

Nephilim

The bible speaks of hybrid race of men and angels/demon called the Nephilim (Gen 6.4). The Holy Quran speaks of Djiin. Could these be one and the same?

For arguments sake lets define good as Nephilim and evil as Djiin.

If you keep the notion that the union of an angel and human can create a Nephilim, you come up with the following. Einstein, Mozart, Edison, Michelangelo, Galileo. In contrast, the union of a demon and human can create Djiin. Hitler, Kahn, Bin Laden, Vlad Tepest.

If you read articles on the biblical Nephilim they speak of giants and powerful men. It took the great flood to destroy all of them, but the text leaves an opening for their return. Some argue that Goliath (story of David the giant slayer) was a Nephilim along with his people. Some say that today’s alien abduction claims are actually Demons attempting to procreate.

My take is vampires are actually the soul of a Nephilim attempting to survive by spreading itself through as many people as possible and feeding from the souls of others through the blood.

No I don’t honestly believe the above, I just like the explanation (wink, wink). I wish I were a novelist because I have some great story synopsis.

What’s your explanation?

Note to ElderDanial: Don’t forget my royalties.

Um.. yeah Cancer.. i was gonan say all of that..you just beat me to it...and if anyone believes that... i have a bridge to sell you

Cancer has put forth an absolutely compelling argument for giants. I cannot refute anything he has to say. He did an excellent job of explaining their presence after the floods so I won't touch that. Here all this time I thought Goliath was a Canaanite and they were why Moses and the gang dodged around in the desert for 38 of 40 years. Learn something new every day. Thanks Cancer.

My only problem with the argument is its pride. The prideful establishment threw Galileo in prison for thinking outside the box. The concept of both vampire and Nephilim is outside the box, but we all know we are among them, even though we may not know where our original sire came from.

The text says the son's of God (angel/demon) hooked up with the daughter's of man (Seth’s girls and decadence). Wouldn't you expect the Nephilim to get free will to choose between good and evil from their mothers? If not meet my son. Demons and angel’s are powerful followers; humanity with free will is a weaker race with infinite possibilities because we refuse to follow the rules. Remember the apple?

How many breeds of dog are there? Cat? Bird? Fish? Human? Snake? Tree? Spider? Stars? Planets? I think you get my point. There is one undeniable truth in the universe. God loves diversity. Why not different breeds of the Nephilim?

Natural selection (or their fathers) has taken out the giants, easy mark for David and the gang. Maybe the demonic fathers have taken the place of natural selection and actively snuff life with a miscarriage or other malevolent act when they know they are obviously going to be exposed. Natural selection drives all species to survival (except the panda bear, damn that bamboo addiction)

To quote a great man Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden) “Take not thy thunder from us, take away our pride”. I find it prideful to believe a race with the power of their fathers and the will of their mother would disappear quietly into the night before their human cousins.

PS Cancer’s argument is why I love this site, intelligent debate and research material that doesn’t degrade into childish snipping.

Also the flood did not wipe out the son's of god or the daughters of man. Knock the boots and your back where you started. Even if the flood took the first generation out.

Ok so far you have only strengthened my theory of Nephilim. Read what you’ve written again and you’ll see my views parallel yours. You’re just more eloquent on your delivery.

I have no historical reason to believe Nephilim and Djinn are related by anything but by my vivid imagination. Blurring the lines of mythos isn’t anything new but you tend to step on toes. Marvel comics put Hercules and Thor in the same group “The Avengers”. Zeus the thunder god probably would have a problem with the whelp Thor claiming the fame, but it’s entertaining.

Do you have any research for the class on Djinn? I would love to hear the voice of someone stuck neither in religion nor evolution. We are so few in number.

Well, I wasn't really arguing any of your points Wraith, except one. In your second post in this thread you said:

For arguments sake lets define good as Nephilim and evil as Djiin.

That was the only statement I really had issue with. With the exception of the legend I cited earlier (about a benevolent Nephilim leading an extermination war against other Nephilim), I have found no evidence of any "good" Nephilim to have ever existed.

It's also hard to consider possible Nephilim such as Robert Wadlow as "good" Nephilim. If he was Nephilim, his blood line was so diluted that he was far more human than Nephilim.

The Nephilim were evil, cannibalistic, 6 fingered and toed creatures with double rows of teeth. They felt they were far superior to the human race and should be worshipped. Thankfully their original number was few. It seemed they preferred to mate with humans versus each other so over time their blood line was diminished.

The spirits of the original Nephilim remain. They are in a lower earthly plane and if given the opportunity to return, they will.

As for the Djinn, I know little other than they too are purported to be extremely evil. Their legend seems to be limited to the middle east. I do not know of any Djinn legends outside of that region.

I'm starting to feel a little short at my 6'2" (189 cm) status! And here I was complaing there were not enough tall men in the world!... I'm with Scar... you all beat us to it! *cough cough*

well, I'll point out Djinn are a race of Genie, as are the Efreet, more akin to elementals then demons or humans.. though one is invaribly nasty to extremeities, the other is more akin to leprichans when it comes to temperment

elves (elder spirits) were said to be taller then humans at an average hight of 6'3 when they were given a physical form in order to servive and effect change in the world and that's going back about 5-6 thousand years in norse mythology.. where also the frost giants reigned whom were deemed able to contend with the gods and in many cases more powerful.. fire giants that ruled over the fire forges of hel were deemed even larger then their bretheren

oh, for those who are unaware, it is 'hel' not 'hell' (and I've noted the spelling in many of the books and articals I've studied)..

however it is everything hell in xian and cathlic religions portrayed.. which I suspect they took this place from the norse mythologies to provied that follow what we teach 'or else' ordeal

hel is situated within a massive mountian peak of ice inescapable (perhaps again another instance of the above as lucifer is said to be suck on a great mountain of ice beating his wings causeing everything to freeze further)

the fireforges are where the giants took all their captives from their raids upon the other realms to suffer an eturnity in the forges creating weapons for them to further their war with the gods (and ultimately everyone else)

I by no means was under the impression that either creature had ever been depicted as anything but evil.

I am a strong believer in the human will. I try not to put any human in one blind category and was extending this philosophy to our cousins. My assumption is that if they are part human, they have the ability to choose.

If one was able to reduce himself and walk among us we see they have the ability to change their appearance. If one helps battle other giants we see they have the ability to choose.

The quote from my first post was just trying to give a shortcut so I didn’t have to write out “good Nephilim or Djinn” or “evil Nephilim or Djinn.”

Don’t forget that the son’s of god are both angel and demon; he created both before the rebellion. If angels and demons are breeding today, the Nephilim have the ability to be strong in the blood. If they were a descendent of an older bloodline they would be week in the blood.

The parent “may” be able to contribute to its ethics, but in the end free will rules. Good Nephilim “may” be children of angels and instinctively stay under the radar, only coming up when they feel they are needed/wanted. Evil Nephilim “may” be the children of demons and not give a hoot and claim to be superior and princes of the universe, that’s why they are the ones you hear from mostly.

Next subject?

Come on Cancer, you tipped your hand. You’re a smart cookie give us another nibble. What ya got on Lillith? Got any scientific data to back up the myths?

There's a little more here. First to what Crazywolf said...

As I understand it, Hel is the name of the Norse goddess Hel, the goddess that rules the Norse underworld. The two are probably interchangeable (Hel as a goddess and hel as a place). Hel was the daughter of Loki and the giant Angurboda, and the sister of Fenrir and Jormungand.

To the subject of demons...

There is a lot of confusion as to what demons are. Most people lump any mischievous spirit into the category of demon. Strictly speaking, Demons are dis-incarnated spirits stuck in the lower spirit planes. Lucifer is not a demon. Lucifer's servants are not demons. They are fallen angels and it is an important distinction.

Demons were never human. Evil human spirits in the lower planes are called unclean spirits. The original Greek biblical texts contain numerous passages about unclean spirits.

So what are demons? Demons are the spirits of the Nephilim. They exist and they are close to the earth plane. They cannot ascend. Their power in their current dis-incaranted state is minimal. They greatly want to return to this earth plane. They can posses a human body, but it should be noted that most possessions are from unclean spirits.

Demons are easily communicated with via Ouija boards, pendulums, automatic writing, and seances. However communication with these creatures should be discouraged as they have no insight and no power to affect change. They will almost always lie.

I've gotten off the subject of the vampire. I will leave you with this:

His young ones suck up blood; and where the slain are, there is he.

Job 39:30

Been reading the Quran for the story of Djiin. Djiin are a third race of creation. Angel, Djiin, and human were created, the Djiin were intended to serve mankind. As man was created from mud and clay, Djiin were created from smokeless fire and are an elementaling.

Djiin were also given the gift of free will just like humans. Satan was the first Djiin to go against god's wishes and was told he's going to get his. Satan doesn't plan on going down alone and tries to take humanity with him. Story sound firmiliar?

Efreet are the worst kind of Djiin powerful and evil. They have given up on any chance of redemption and will take out anyone that gets in their way.

Though Djiin are elementalings they can take physical form but mostly whisper in the wind trying to get people to do their will. Mediums are said to get their information from the Djiin. Though there are good as well as evil Djiin, a mystic never knows who's giving them information.

This blows my theory of relationship out of the water.

I'm feeling lazy today, so I'm going to link this text from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon which does a great job of grouping all the common beliefs. You'll find here references to Nephilim, Djinn, and Lilith, among others. Damn, I love Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia!

Just for the record, this does contain stuff that I personally disagree with, but it is part of the standard folklore. One of the cool things about Wikipedia, is a) it is unbiased, so it usually portrays all sides and beliefs equally, and b) is mutable. The second is both a blessing and curse, but it is well-monitored to keep outrageously incorrect stuff out.

The Elder Lurker Daniel

It's difficult to totally agree with everything at Wikipedia, but it is a good resource.

Islam is probably the one religion I know the least about. The more I learn about it the less I like it. There is such a thing as elemental magic. However I think the Muslims are way off base.

OMG! This string lives.... like a good vamp.. can't keep them down for long!

Of course it lives, knowledge never dies easy.

No but it can be lost... or burned.

I think the greatest tragedy ever in the history of information was when the Library of Alexandria was burned.

It often troubles me to imagine what knowledge was truly lost that day.

Makes good fodder for stories, though. *evil grin

D

very excellent information and reading in this thread... the true power of knowledge lies within information :P

well, I'd posted again awhile ago, at least I thought I did but it didn't turn up and I wasn't in the mood to repeat myself anytime soon

it just consisted of nameing the 3 places within the world of the dead includeing the fire giant Surts domain, as well as hels and a bit of info about each and so forth..

anyways I suspect hel has turned up in other religions (perhaps I came accross one of these in my studies which must have been developeing to be so close to the origonal) spawned by the origonal, as an example of similarity the Norns and the Fates as I recall being absolutely identical (in all but name) yet from 2 completely differnt cultures/mythologies..

also been considering the role of the titans, they were giants among giants able to take on the gods, origonal rulers of the universe, but back then the known universe would only extend as far as a bird can fly

considering that they must consist of the largest on that chart.. then who would be these gods that could not just defy them, but unseat them as masters of the known universe

ok..sunday school version
Giants are the products of Fallen Angels and Women...
Is it true?
Cool!

Yes. Strictly speaking, the Nephilim are the offspring of fallen angels and earth women. Their first appearance in the bible is Genesis 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

I would just like to say that this is all fascinating. Im learning more here about the bible than I ever did in Sunday school.

Outstanding minds are afoot on this site...

~K~

yes there knowledge is vast... and alot is to be learned.... fret not what you do not know for the unknown will become known when the light fades away and shadows lurk among us... :P

or somebody finally remembers to change the lightbulb

Crazywolf-

You sexy thing you... that was funny. You make me giggle.

--------------'-----'---{@
Khayman

Hi I'm back. Changed jobs blah blah blah no time for surfing blah blah blah yada yada

Dante wrote of the six houndred and some...Cancer fill in the blank..layers of the abyss. The lowest levels are reserved for the realy nasty guys.

During the time he wrote the book he made sure the Catholic higher ups were down low.

Rules for this question: Hitler and Bin Laden are not answers they are a given, don't waste your time most people agree already.

Who in your opinion is at the lowest levels?

I agree with Khay on this : Knowledge I never knew... I kno I didn't pay any sort of attention in Sunday school >;) I was too busy thinkin'.....somethin'......

the person/people who released HIV into the population

People that like to carry around that big golden spoon and constantly stir up shit

Ah, but I AM the shitmeister..

Nay, kind sir, I must say nay. I was married to the shitmeister, and there is NO ONE that could attain THAT level of, let's say, deceitfullness, without true concentration and skill. Everyone has to be good at something, and he is tops in his chosen field...just ask his parole officer!

In all honesty, I don't think anyone of the earth plane would occupy the lowest levels. Even Hitler.

The lowest, most restrained levels of Hell are in my opinion, the holding areas of the super entities that once ruled the realms prior to the rule of Elohim. The Greeks touched on this a little (The Olympians imprisoning the Titans) and there is also the Judeo/Christian Tartarus (Where Satan (not Lucifer, they are different entities) is).

thems some tall persons

Oh fine Moreish make me feel friken short as hell I'M ONLY 5ft3!lol but these people are tall goodness,i think i'd have a serious Napoleon complex around them.

awww honey, i'd share it if I could!

*pouts*No i don't wanna be tall

hitler was apparently a devout cathlic/christian.. and nothing breeds hate like fanatics (of ANY religion), to his beliefs he's up on cloud 9 right now, to everyone else today he's consigned to the daily acceptance of a pineapple (for those who haven't watched little nicky, you wont know what I'm on about)

the thing is, his kind have always been around, the difference is it'd become slowly unacceptable over the ages and then suddenly we're confronted with the now unfamilar sights and shame of the past after gaining a sence of higher enlightenment.. what was speical this time is he had a kind of power over people
they didn't even have to listen to him in a sence a euphoria ensued

in a twisted sence of irony he has taught us what humans will strive to in which to enforce their views upon each other

it's a shame humans never seem to learn from past mistakes untill they themselves make them, and this seems ever more evident when it is an entire country

So much to read-- it's all fantastic.
No worries Pandora, I'm 5'4''. You can borrow my shoes. :)

I have so enjoyed reading this thread... the information here is abounding... (welcome switch of late, i might say).

On a side note:
I'm 5'9 barefoot. Pushin 6' with most any pair of shoes I own on. which are few and far between as they are pushin 12's.

I wanna be short...and petit... Im tired of bein tall.

=(

I'll certainly switch with you for a bit-- at least steal a few inches so we're even. ;)

I'd love to be taller and a bit thinner. I suppose once I get into the swing of my exercise routines again I'll be good to go on the latter of it.

Thank you all, I am now searching through 1,000s of pages trying to find out as much as I can from the above topics. I am so inspired.

So is the area outside the gates of hell equal in some degree to purgatory?

I'm starting a new thread called Satan vs. Lucifer... I'm not closing this one, but I want to keep that topic separate.

groovey. id like to read that one...

my thoughts are pope innocent 3RD(hope thats the right one....there are so many) can join the ranks beside hitler,as the guy who wrote the papal bull on witch burnings...bin laden isn't worth such high notation....without prior cia backing and training...he would be nothing more than a rich kid with a chip on his shoulder...
and I fully expect a blast for that one....ta

I just dig this thread.

I figured it would give the kiddies something nifty to read....

it was a good read to thankyou kayman for bringing it to my attn

ooh wow, Wraiths thread.. thanks Khayman - super stuff, I adore reading his threads and especially when ElderDan, Cancer and him all debate. One can almost feel them reaching for their research books!

I agree... it tickles me how much the fellas will dig up when a topic strikes them.

I always enjoy reading when the three of them get into it.
I think this is one of the few threads I've seen where logical, thoughtfull, intelligent conversation takes place.
LOL

Yea..I think in the early days at VR, a lot of thought and research was put into most of the of threads. I am not saying that all of them lack quality now... but maybe it was just because Vampire Rave was new back in June/July/August. I certaintly enjoy "hoking" the old threads :)

I feel I am in the company of greatness, most compelling, unique, interesting and educational thread I have read here to date. I did not concieve , imagined or real of learning so much and enjoying it all, thank you.

Im not gonna change the subject or speculate on their existance but i felt the need to point this out and just wanted to know if you guys considered the math style used in the first 5 books of the Bible such as a cubit (16 inches) in your thoughts and computations. Any thoughts on that ?

very intresting reading here.. it took me over 40 mins to read in which I had to relog in to post.. lol

awesome information! you guys know your stuff. i saw all this at the history channel and you guys have described it and even given more information about the subjects....thank you, i now know more than i used to.

i have been enlightened!
LOL ^_^


Ps: and morey darling...i have a cousin and she's 6'8...i think she beat your height by just a tad bit lol ;)

I would also like to contribute this to your discussion in order to point out a few thoughts in regards to perception and the mind set and reasoning to the time. This may appear to be unrelated but it is relative to emphasize my added point on Biblical interpretation.
In the book of Revelations (apocalypse) when they are speaking of being shown the future. (I don’t have a Bible near so I can’t give the exact quote and passage) The writer is being shown a vision and it speaks of things such as horseless chariots with a scorpions tail. Now with that in mind, tell me what that is you think they are describing?
Give up? It is a tank; Now in Biblical times they had no word for tank in any language because they didn’t exist. The people had to improvise words to describe the things that they have seen. This kind of goes along with the Math and measuring factor I threw at you in my previous post, and yes, I do realize that the first five books were written in Hebrew from right to left and the New testament written in Greek even though they spoke, most of them Aramaic.
The point, is that you cant take to heart exact descriptions that the Bible gives without putting your mind into the mindset and the understanding that was available to the period, doing otherwise can only produce in accurate results. The Bible is a historic compilation of smaller history books as well as a spiritual guide, but a lot of what it says has to do with perception.

I just have to say thankyou for this wonderful topic. It was so intreguing and extremely thought out. I have learned a lot in the past hour reading all of this and not to say i know it all but i was aware of a few happenings. Thank you so much on lighting it up and with so much passion. I do agree with a few things said and would love to go into it but find myself at a loss for words at the moment.

by the way i am only 4'9-3/4" if i could borrow some from somebody i'd greatly appreciate it!

thanks again for gettin my noodle thinking!

Been a while since I've been around, life has been sucking.

I was reared up Baptist(christian) and studied the Tora and Kuran while in the middle east. I've recently reread the Kuran to freshen my memory on Saten and the Efreets. The more I learn of the three major religions, the more I agree and disagree with them all. Sounds strange until you study them all.

Elder, in Pontius Pilates defence he had two jobs. 1 collect taxes 2 keep uprises to a minimum. You can tell he saw no reason to exicute the man but had to keep his job in mind. If he didn't he would have an uprising AND get no taxes. Ceaser didn't give unemployment to goveners. In the end the rebel was just a man who, though innocent wasn't going to get Pontius exicuted.

Cancer, get me a spell checker!!!

IMHO God(the devine, universe, whatever) is a creater who uses science to make his rules. Creation and evolution can exist in the same universe. Your thoughts?

Welcome back wraith, your conversation has been sorely missed

*kiss*

Ok, this is a little bit off what has been the majority of the conversation on this thread, and was said quite some time back. But it's one of those things that irks me, so I'm going to toss in my bit.

I think it was Crazywolf that made one or two comments where he made a distinction between christian religions and catholicism. Why is it people do this so frequently? Catholicism is Greek for universal. It is christianity as a whole. However, generally it is used to mean the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, and less frequently, the Old Catholic Church. Either religion fall under the catagory of christianity. Christianity is the belief in Christ as the Son of God. This most definatley encompases the Roman Catholic Church, the Old Catholic, or Anglican, Church, as well as the other religions labeled under christianity.

Welcome back, oh fountain of knowledge Wraith (even if you don't get your spellchecker) heh, good to have you here!

Creation and evolution theories are both correct. Again the Biblical account was for the benefit of Jewish perception, it was written the way it was so the people of the time could comprehend. I believe there was a man named Adam and he was the first Jew or the father of that race if you will. There was also evolution as science has proven, but imagine telling the people of the time with limited understanding of themselves and the earth in that region excluding Egypt and a few other races left over from the first civilization (ancient pagans) that they evolved from apes. They would not be able to grasp that understanding, remember the mindset of the time was limited to their capacity to comprehend info, in other words they were very wishy washy and easily manipulated.
Most of there history came from stories and word of mouth and here in lies the problem.

God gave man free will through design in our evolution. Prior to the Jews Liberation and captivity in Egypt, they did not know of God on a massive unified scale meaning yes they new of him through stories, but God never made his presence known to a unified collective mass of people before Moses. So how do you get a civilization to really see you as the supreme deity without force and/or compromising free will? Well you give them books and commandments and that is what he did. You write the books so the people could not draw conclusions other than the fact that you are God.

Now back to the first civilization, I believe this was a race of people who God had aloud the understanding of science and evolution similar to what we do now, and like now the people started to doubt God because of there knowledge and abilities. This upset God and he aloud the civilization to be destroyed. That civilization existed around Sept 21st 10500 B.C. During the age in the great year (platonic year) called Leo. The people that survived evolved into the Mayans, Egyptians, Native Americans, and ancient forms of Celtic, Picts, and Scot’s and a few other races. Some with some of the understanding they had before. (Kind of like story telling to 100 people tell the story to one person and pass it down by the time it gets to the hundredth person its no longer the same.)

The point. God started over in the Taurean age through the age of Aries the ram (the Jewish age) but left clues behind so that one day when we are ready to understand we can learn through the past and not make the mistakes again one can only speculate. The clues have been laid out and as we unravel them to create the picture that was intended; our outlook and level of comprehension grows. We are now in the age Pisces (the Christian age), which ends approximately 2012 the same as the Mayan calendar long count. See another clue. I suggest this sight for more info on it. http://www.grahamhancock.com/

ToiletDuc,

No argument from me, the Catholic church is peppered with embracing the universal pegan religions to wipe them out. Just about every holiday recognized comes from a "universal" religion. But today in 2005 they are all but out of the picture being absorbed and morphed into todays christian cathlics and protestants.

Can anyone tell me a religious holiday that isn't originaly pegan? There's probably one. I'm sure Cancer would love to give a history lesson in response.

This is exactly what this thread is all about.

Apperition,

I'm with you on your whole piece and I'm open to the elder race of man (Rush fan).

Where do you get your info on the first race, and please do not lay your whole thought process at the foot of a pyramid. It's a stable shape like the wheel, where given time it will be the first building after a mud mound.

Teach me some more evidence and back it up.

wraith your gonna make me whip out a book by the time im done ill respond tonight when i have more time

This thread just keeps getting more and more interesting. Im so glad I bumped it a bit=)

I'm fairly certain Easter, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and Palm Sunday are 100% Christian ;)

Additional holidays of note: St. Valentine's Day and St. Patrick's Day.

When you say Christian you are encompasing Catholic, Baptist, ect...
Yes?

Christians would be those who preach Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

Well Wraith you asked for it lol
Here lies evidence on the great civilization or (the first one). Ill be brief so I m not gonna go into complete detail but to give you an idea on how I come up with my info and yes a lot of it is theory but the biggest problem I have with proving my theories is that there are usually two sides with preselected theories of there own and they wont get together to as the right question or try to see if both theories fit—Like I stated in my creation vs. evolution post.

Let me begin with this there are twelve ages that circulate in a platonic year. They are Virgo (12,000 to 10,000 b.c) Leo (10,000 to 8,000 b.c) Cancer (8,000 to 6,000 B.C)
Gemini (6,000 to 4,000 B.C) Taurus (4,000 to 2,000 B.C) Aries (Jewish age) (2000 to 0 bc) Pisces (0 to 2012 A.D) (Christian current age) Aquarius (the new age atonement) (2012 to 4000) and so on. The dates might be off do to calendar flaws and lost days because of lunar calendar as opposed to a solar Except for the age end date of Pisces, which is exactly correct. A platonic year is between 25,000 and 30,000 years. The rotation of these ages has to do with the precession of the equinoxes and is based on the fact that the earth rotates on a wobble, causing the North Star to change 5 times during this 30,000-year period.

When that happens the earths crust shifts changing the climate in different parts of the world. Atlantis is now on our south pole covered in snow then frozen to ice. That is the fate of the first civilization.

I have gotten much of my research from Graham Hancock Robert Buval and the study of they Mayans and Egyptians, I have done Biblical research and translated Prophecy so that we can comprehend it and I’m Writing a book on all this stuff to pose a correct theory that lets all make sense.

Now here is one for you based on biblical prophecey (For the sake of this argument keeping in mind that they are to occure within the next 20 years) Whom do believe is the anti christ or will become so which world leader? any takers?

Don't look at the surface of the holiday. Yes easter is officially the day Christ rose fromt the dead. But what pegan holiday of firtility brings you the bunnie rabbit with eggs?

Christmas is the birth of Christ but it was the Ule celebration that was a drunken orgy for the Norse when the locked themselves in huts for three months burning the biggest tree the could find to survive. America ignored the pegan holiday until the mide 1800 when "A Christmas Carol" re-defined the meaning of Christmas.

Come on Cancer your better at the details than I am. I'm talking about the holiday behind today's christian holiday. The holiday that was taken away so the christians could say "oh yeah, we do that to. Come join us...or die"

Me

OK "A" I'll give you the dates. The disection of time. My god-sire says he can live with that. Now where is the proof of the ancient one's?

Note: I have yet to disagree with you.

Well, you're right about Christmas, which is why I didn't mention it. The winter solstice is surprisingly close to the marked celebration of Jesus's birth.

The catholic church has a history of amalgamating pagan celebrations, as you've already said. But as to Easter, I had forgotten about the bunny.

Holidays come from stories and without a doubt, the biblical stories are just about all borrowed. Of the old testament scripture this is especially true. Personally I feel there is more truth to the new testament and less plagiarism.

*bump*

i love to elarn, especially from intellectual discussions such as this one...so im not letting it die so easily...


come on people...open your minds and post ;)

Free your mind..... :)

Wraith what type of proof do you seek regarding the ancient ones--Evidence of there exhistance----mathmatics----Im lost

I can't remember the source on this because it was a televison program I watched a while back, and if any of you find you not what I am talking about please give your thoughts/what the source is/etc...

There apparently was a study done by some Rabbis or something and computer scientistes using word matrices of certain segments of the Bible. I can't remember all of them but they contained profoundly accurate proficy(can't spell damn). It mentioned the year of the invention of the airplane along with the term wright brothers, i think it mentioned Hitlers's death and even some of when Bush was going for presidency (pretty sure it was for the 1st term but don't take up on it 100%).

*these where all in matrices of i think 50 characters or so

Anyway, in one section it mentioned the armageddon (anti-christ blah blah blah) and the year that has been thrown around so much 2012. in addtion to this year being mentioned as the end of an age, and in this form which i believe to be a fantastic source, I my self was having visions of the future (or at least metaphors of the future take your pick if you like) BEFORE I saw this special. These visions were of armeggedon and based upon a few things I saw, and some of the words that I got with it, it would fall right around this year 2012.

More disturbing to this cause one of these visions involved the death of man by the flame of a dragon. With in the past few months I learned from my mother that in revalations it speaks of the end of the world or something coming by burning the people not going to heaven. (*Check this source if you will and please confirm or deny this, i can't bear being wrong).

So I am woundering;

Do any of you believe that the year 2012 will be the year of armeggdon, as well?

i would like to make a correction

I CAN bear to be wrong

sorry i sometimes hit keys and not realize that i hit them untill later

End of the world in the Bible is a mistranslation of the Greek for end of the age --Paticularly in this case end of the age of grace(christian era)

2012 the beginning of biblical tribulation the seven year period in which the Anti-christ controls the governments. for half that time he honors the covenant then he breaks it and causesr the Great tribulation

Oh i guess i should mention on a personal note IM not a bible beater or any type of preacher --I just happend to study it looking for scientific proof in it. (just a hobby)

That stuff you refered to about hidden messages is called bible code research (its not accurate in every case)

Oh and in relation to this check out that thread i did On veri chip its related.

A man calls the police and reports his wife beat him the night before.

The police show up and the man doesn't have any marks on him and nothing is broke. The man insists the women almost beat him to death.

During questioning the woman denies everything.

Should an arrest be made? Why should the police believe the man if there is no evidence? If there was a scratch or broken glass, maybe the investigation would go further.

I tell you there is an elder race of man. No carbin dated ruins to show other than huge basic buildings where the only question is "How were they built?". No lost advanced science other than greek fire.

I'm asking for any evidence other than "because I say so."

I love fiction, but I don't look at anything as fact without proof. I am open to world altering events and proof, I believe there is more than we see and know. Just give me some "proof/evidence"

SPELL CHECKER!!!

apparitionknight,

I believe you're talking about the Bible Code. There have been numerous books and programs produced about it.

As to 2012, this is a recurring date/time. It pops up a lot in different areas. Personally, I think its just the end of a cycle, not the end of all.

As to Armageddon (as described in the Bible), I think it has already happened. It ended in 1945.

My birth mom (I have 2 moms I claim) swears we have lost 3 years when we switched over from B.C. to A.D. I have tried and tried to get her to show me proof, but to no avail. Has anyone ever heard of this, or is she just crazy from barely living thru my teenage years. Sorry for getting off subject, but it seems the most prolific thinkers are on this post.

Oh they are in this post, mamma.
Thats why I took the liberty of bumping it.

It provokes thought of a mature mind.

I like to read it.
I find it enlightening.
Im not a very well read person... nor do thoughts of this nature contained within this post cross my mind often at all....

Hence my bumping it.... there's too many people like me on this site=)

bevVa,

I hear/read stuff like this all the time. But it's irrelevant... Let me explain.

First off, no days have ever been lost. We're talking about days being excluded from a calendar system. If we're talking about true lost days/months/years, that is beyond the scope of this thread.

The are numerous calendar systems. There is not one that is perfect. There are some that are more perfect than others.

What makes a calendar system imperfect is gravity. The earth does not move in a precise orbit around the sun. The sun does not move in a perfect orbit around the Milky Way. All universal matter is in motion.

All this motion (gravity) causes variations in earth's orbit, which causes variations in earth's actual revolution around the sun. As the difference between earth's actual orbit and projected orbit (calendar system) increase, there becomes larger and larger inaccuracy between earth's projected and real tropical year.

Before you know it it's snowing in June. Here's an example of a more modern-day discrepancy:

The Roman era began with the foundation of Rome in 753 b.c. By 46 b.c., various imperfections in the Roman calendar had caused it to fall into confusion and Julius Caesar then reformed it.

The year 46 b.c. was made to consist of 445 days, and is called "The Year of Confusion". Thereafter, each year consisted of 365 days except that every fourth year was a leap year. This Julian, or Old Style calendar remained in general use in Europe until 1582.

By 1582, there was a difference of ten days between the Julian calendar and the tropical year. In that year, Pope Gregory XIII ordered that October 5th should be called October 15th, and that during end of the century (00) years, only the fourth should be a leap year. This Gregorian or New Style calendar is still in use today.

It was adopted by Britian (including North America and the colonies) in 1752 (September 3rd being called September 14th) and the beginning of the official year altered from March 25th (date of the Vernal Equinox when Julian introduced his calendar) to January 1st.

So, back to my original statement about irrelevance. Looking at my above example (for North America), did the dates 9/3/1752 - 9/13/1752 not happen? Of course they happened. They are just not recorded in the Gregorian Calendar system.

Cancer I dont believe that 2012 is the end of it all. I believe that it is the end of an age. Do to dating problems and calendar differences throughout history, are dating system was messed up and corrected. So now we have missing years and dates of predicted events are off. For example 2012 should have been more like 2000 but do to all the calendar corrections over time this is what we end up with.
As far as 1945, being when Biblical prophecy its impossible> THe jews did not have a nation until 1948 and they did not possess Jerusalam until 1967 and in The bible it states that they have to be in control of the city.Mathew 24 vs 32-35

Wraith the best proof I can give you about an older civilization is the Sphinx. It is my opinion based on information and research done on the object that it is older than any structure on this earth, not the head but the body of it. It has weathering patterns on it that would suggest that it once sat in a tropical environment

Good goddesses in gravy! I have I got a lot of catching up to do. I want to address all of these points, but will start slow. So bear with me, here we go.

I am going to address the points about 2012 and the Bible Code by quoting from an article I wrote, Predictions and Prophecies for the March 2004 issue of Acrimony. Almost a year later, it would seem that it bears repeating. Ahh, I love irony.

Early man learned how to observe other cycles in order to pinpoint reoccurrences of special events. The most common method was to observe the stars. Astronomy led naturally to using astrology to predict or give advice on the future, or determine the nature of things.

Ancient calendars were associated with the progression of the heavenly bodies. Even before the development of the simplest of telescopes, constellations and planetary orbits were known and tracked with amazing precision.

One of the most sophisticated calendrical systems was devised by the Mayan civilization of South America. The Maya lived in the areas around Southern Mexico as early as the third century A.D., but apparently disappeared around the 12th century. The Mayan language was still spoken by their descendants when the Spanish Conquistador's found them, but they did not know much about their ancestors' legacy.

It wasn't until the 18th century that the temples, pyramids, and stelae monuments were discovered, covered in Mayan hieroglyphs. These hieroglyphs were eventually decoded which helped explain the system of three separate calendars that the Maya used.

The most complex of these was also one of the most accurate ever devised in calculating a solar year. It is known as the Long Count, which is a measurement of time that includes five different numbers. (Compare this to our system of yyyy/mm/dd, which is only three numbers.) These five cycles measured the days up to the largest cycle, which is a span of time of 1,872,000 days, or roughly 5125 years. The current cycle began on 13.0.0.0.0, which correlates to Aug. 13, 3114 B.C. of our calendar.

This cycle will return to the same position on December 21, 2012. This date has now become one of the most specific, ominous dates of prophecy. The fact that it lands on a winter solstice is a matter of debate, that being of course if it was an intentional ending date or not.

What is claimed about this last day of the "Grand Cycle" is that it is the last date on the Mayan Calendar. Portending this to be a predicted Final Day of the Earth; the idea being the Mayans did not foresee the need to calculate beyond this date. This is only true if you do not understand that as a cycle it will continue from the beginning to count off another Grand Cycle on Dec. 22, 2012, which will usher in another 5125 years.

Other would be prophets are scrambling to search their sources for anything that matches this date. For example, astronomically speaking, the earth's procession through the galaxy will reach a unique point, aligning it with the center of the galaxy.

Again, such an amazing coincidence begs the question, could the Mayans have known this, calculating their Grand Cycle to end on his date, bringing us to the endpoint of our cycle around the galaxy? This we may never know. Based on evidence uncovered about the astronomical data they did calculate, regarding eclipses, comets, etc., it seems possible. Does it really mean anything, though? Is the Age of Man going to come to an end, or will a New Age dawn that day?

Of course many others are finding this sign to be quite potent and are interpreting old predictions to meet this date, including finding ways of stretching Revelations 11's visions of Armageddon to 2012. Those same prophecies would suggest the antichrist would come to power in 2004... an election year, by an amazing coincidence. Or is it?

Another feature of humanity's fascination with repetition is that when we find repetition out of context, where we normally wouldn't expect it, we believe this must imply some meaning. Whenever statistics would tell us that that something should not happen, or where chaos is the ruling factor, to find a pattern often deems study as a divine message.

Probably the most fascinating example of this is the phenomenon that is known as the Bible Code, or the Torah Code. This is a wonderful application of new technology against an old source to find new meanings. Thanks to the power of mathematical probability, we can find a phrase describing modern events in a document that we know is quite old. The document that was used first was the Hebrew Torah, also known as the first five books of the Old Testament.

The technique is known as Equidistant Letter Skipping, or ELS, which allows us to search for words or phrases very much like a word search puzzle from a newspaper. But instead of looking for the word to be spelled out exactly, a method of skipping the same number of letters is used to find the words we want. This implies perhaps that these phrases are encoded in the Torah. This encoding technique is known as "steganography", which is the hiding of a message within an otherwise normal picture or document.

The most famous case of a Bible Code perhaps is the one that predicted that Princess Diana would die in a car accident in France in 1997 (Jewish year 5757).

Keywords that were found in the now famous matrix are Lady, Diana, Spencer, Princess, Wales, chauffer, photographer, tunnel, Paris, France, etc. It is quite remarkable and would seem statistically impossible for all of these terms to be randomly scattered so closely together, in a 3000 year old Hebrew text. Holy cryptography, Batman!

One of the wonderful flexibilities, and therefore faults, of the Bible Code is the fact that Hebrew spelling is very flexible because of the inconsistent uses of vowels. A great website which illustrates this is: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/abulafia.html. The website discusses an example of one of the modern rabbis whose names was found in a Bible Code, Rabbi Haim Abulafia (1660-1744 A.D.).

There is a photograph of a synagogue of Rabbi Abulafia in Tiberias, which is in Palestine. On different signs on the building dedicated to him, his name is spelled four completely different ways in Hebrew. Amazingly, the version of his name that was found in the Torah as a Bible Code was a fifth unique version, and yet is still just as legal as the others. Simply put, you try to find the one that fits into your search, and keep hacking away until you find a match.

One of the proponents of the Bible Code, author Michael Drosnin, believes that he found not only a great mystery, but perhaps even a "signature" of God by finding these secret codes. He challenged his detractors in a 1997 Newsweek article to find the predictions of the assassination of a prime minister in "Moby Dick". Well, the challenge was taken up and quite a few "predictions" were found.

First and foremost was the assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, which if nothing else satisfied the challenge. But other predictions were found, including Martin Luther King, Jr., and John F. Kennedy (including the phrase "shot in the head" by a "concealed assassin"). The moral of this story is, either the word of God is in every printed book... or, you can find a pattern in any finite random collection.

So what does all of this mean? Can the future be predicted? Well, yes but specific requests will be met with specific answers. Statistically, anything is possible if you know the odds. Statistics can be used to Prove any truth. With examples provided by history, we can find anything we want. Hindsight is 20/20.

I think this is right, I think people can have a glimpses of the future or they think they and try to do as they see.

Thanks, Cancer. Much appreciative. Now I can give her the printed off posts that pertain, and maybe she'll be quiet about it for all of 5 minutes! Bev

Wow, a lot of information... I would put more cents in but honestly, I don't know enough on the matter or 100% understand it.... all I know is I'm 5'1" and I'm fine with it... I can't image being 8 feet or 36 feet!

There are only seven empires that directly affect the Jews and the ottoman is not one of them. Those empires are as follows:

1. Egyptian (time of Exodus)
2. Assyrian
3. Babylonian (Nebuchadnezzer)
4. Medo-Perrsian
5. Greek (Alexander the Great and his 4 generals)
6. Roman
7. Revived Roman empire


The book of Daniel explains this: It starts with Babylon because that is where they were at the time. Egypt and Assyrian already passed at this point.

The first beast a lion with eagle’s wings the wings were plucked and it rose up and was given a human heart. Interpretation- the lion is Babylon; the wings represent two kings that followed Beleshazzar, as kings of Babylon. When the beast rose up on two legs it represents the kings realization that he is not God as he thought. The heart was for the compassion he had for the Jews. Dan 7,vs 4

The second was a bear raised on one side with three ribs in its teeth and it was told to devour many nations. Interpretation, the Medes and the Persians was the bear it was raised higher on one side because of the strength of the Persian military. The ribs represent the conquered nations Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon. Dan 7, vs. 5

The third animal was a leopard with 4 wings and dominion over all was given
Interpretation—this was Greece under Alexander the 4 wings were his four generals

The fourth beast was described as having two large tusks and ten horns on its head
This is Rome.

Another version of this in Dan 2 vs. 31 to 49 describes a statue.
Starts out with
1. Babylon as the head of gold
2. Medo-perrsia chest and arms of silver
3. Greece as the belly and thighs
4. Rome with legs of Iron
5. And then an empire mixed with iron and clay as the feet with ten toes (revived roman empire or the European union)

The iron and clay mixed shows evidence of Rome in the seventh empire. The 10 toes represent 10 nations that recreate Rome started in 1948 and rose to ten by 1981
These combined with revelations first 4 seals prove the prophecies have not happened yet.

I never said anything about an Ottoman-Israel Apocalypse connection. I only gave the time period when Hebrews began re-immigrating into the Palestinian region. This has been a point of contention for Palestinians - that Hebrews illegally immigrated into their region for 60-70 years.

Personally I find no truth in the argument, as it was a region, not a state.

There are a multitude of Apocalypse forecasts. It's really difficult to back any of them wholeheartedly. Edgar Cayce spoke of additional signs (California breaking off and sinking into the Pacific, and Atlantis rising up from the ocean), but he also said it was possible to prevent these occurrences if we altered our ways.

Why are we talking about the Hebrews?

Cancer I understand that and I did not mean to imply that you did. I simply felt the need to point that out do to the many arguments I have had with people in refference to the ottoman empire and the Jews.

Yrael ---In this thread many things are discused and the Hebrews happend to be where some of the info lead.

As the original post says. Many things will be discussed.

None should be with malice. The hope is Cancer will delete any post that is specificly intended to cause undue hardship to an ethnic/religious group.

All things are tied together, the more you understand, the more you grow.

*big-hipped bump*

This thread is too meaty to let it falter.

wraith first and formost thanks for oppening this thread it really educates as for the whole level of hell thing from what i was told by a precher once those that know of jesus and that refused to be saved or what not will have it harsher possibly lower levels then those of like a third world country or so is that so

::: bump bump bump::: I love this thread! I dont want to see it get far away!

This is truely great minds at work

sits quietly waiting to debate any takers?

I'm still waiting for evidence of the ancient ones. :)

i cant show you people all i can give you is the sphinx

I know this thread has become popular, but it has also become excessively long and it needs to be closed.