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Symbolism: The Cross
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darkfarie
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04:13:50 Aug 14 2006
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There is a topic that has been bothering me for a couple of weeks and I would'nt mind gaining others insights. It is on the symbol of the cross. Being a cristian I know it holds religious beliefs and symbolism first and for most with the world population.

I also know it holds with a belief that it wards off vampires (because it is holy)

Also It is the symbol for the red cross. (maybe there is a connection between blood and jesus?) I dont know.

Another is the Iron Cross.

So my question is:

What are other beliefs and symbols held of the cross? Dose it hold any other speacial meaning to which I am not clear?
What exactly dose it mean to you? Oh and background information would be so helpful!




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Darkfury
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04:22:52 Aug 14 2006
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The Cross is not originally a christian or Catholic symbol. It is hol however the Christians and Catholics weren't the first to use it I forget who started it first but I will find out for you.



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firewolf
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04:30:52 Aug 14 2006
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I beleve the cross was a pagan symbole



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sacredDefiance
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04:33:39 Aug 14 2006
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I believe the cross was first used by Celts.....not positive though



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Darkfury
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04:34:44 Aug 14 2006
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yes it was a pagan symbole when it started out. But you know the christians and catholics can't come up with anything all their own they have to shun down another religon then incorperate that religions beliefs into their own. Just like the Swaztika it was not always Evil Hitler made it Evil the Swaztika was originaly used by the triebal peoples of europe and the americas in the same fashion as the cross it brought saftey and peace of mind to the people. It symbolized peace and protection from harm.



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darkfarie
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04:38:15 Aug 14 2006
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Thank you for the website. I'm sure it will be most helpfull. Oh and thank you darkfury! Pagan huh? I am certainly going to research it further



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Darkfury
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04:42:19 Aug 14 2006
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no problem don't quote me on it but I want to say the Norse pagans began using it first as well with the Swaztika but I am not sure again I will look into it and let you know more it is a very intereasting topic.



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Kglitterous
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04:50:56 Aug 14 2006
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29:1 · The wheel cross, sun cross, Odin's cross or Woden's cross. Nordic Odin and Teutonic Wuotan or Woden was the supreme god of the Nordic religion before Christianity. Odin was the god of art, culture, warfare, and the dead; depicted as an old, one-eyed man with two ravens as his intelligence agents and messengers.
The structure is one of the first non-pictorial graphs to appear when humankind was on the threshold of the Bronze Age. It is common on rock carvings. It appears in ancient Egypt, China, pre-Columbian America, and the Near East. From the facts available it seems as if is associated with the wheel, not so much with its invention as with its revolutionary effect on the existing society. In ancient China this sign was associated with thunder, power, energy, head, and respect.
In ancient Babylon the similar structure symbolized the sun god, Shamash.
When the first ideographic writing systems were developed, was included among the signs. It appears in the earliest systems of writing used by the Egyptians, Hittites, Cretians, Greeks, Etruscans, and Romans.
In ancient Greece signified a sphere or globe. It was also used as a natal chart pattern in ancient astrology. In modern astrology it is the sign for the planet Earth, the astrological element earth, and Fortuna, the Part of Fortune, an important position in the natal chart related to progress and hindrances in the material aspect of an individual's life. (Compare with in Group 39.)
In astronomy it is also used as a symbol for the planet Earth, and is therefore synonymous with .
It is easy to trace a shift in this sign's meaning over time. In earliest times was a symbol for the highest power, the sun, and its counterpart, the king. It represented power and control. This meaning changed so that more and more adopted the meaning of and , i.e. the points of the compass, the earth, and the land.
As has been its custom the Christian Church has included this ancient pagan sign among the crosses of its symbolism. It is known as the gamma cross, the Roman Catholic cross, the consecration cross and the inauguration cross. At the inauguration of a church, the bishop, using blessed water or oil, draws the wheel cross at 12 different places on the church walls. Its use as a halo or gloria, i.e. the spiritual power or energy that holy persons emanate, is associated with its original meaning as a sign of power. During the Middle Ages the alchemists used to signify copper alloys (from the Venus sign, , which also meant copper) and sometimes yleaster or stardust, possibly also meteorite iron.
appears in about 15 modern ideographic systems. In some US meteorological systems it has been used to indicate that visibility is worsened by fog or dust. In some British meteorological systems it can mean a solar halo, i.e. a ring around the sun. In modern ideography is often related to visibility and signalling. Thus on modern German maps it can stand for radar station.
In the US, British, Swedish and French hobo sign systems we find that (as well as and ) means here you will find food, work, and money, or here live generous people.



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Darkfury
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04:54:17 Aug 14 2006
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ah so I was pretty much right when I said Norse wow must have been an old acid flashabck lol



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Kglitterous
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05:05:54 Aug 14 2006
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Theres about 40 different crosses listed on that webpage... All of them have writeups like this.

I love the Hobo Runes



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SageDragon
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05:08:55 Aug 14 2006
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I am going to have to agree with everyone else here, I am a Pagan, and the cross was originally one of out symbols.

~SageDragon



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Kglitterous
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05:26:48 Aug 14 2006
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No offence... but since everything pre-Sabian is pagan... that goes without saying now doesn't it? I mean, I am pretty sure even the first man had some concept of a cross as at least art. Isn't it a silly arguement to say that the pagans did such and such first? This bugs me and I am prolly gonna get flamed for this comment cuz it is not PC (Paganicly Correct)



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SyNtHeTiKxRoMaNcE
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06:04:32 Aug 14 2006
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I really dont know much about the different religions and where their symbols originaly came from, but yes i do believe it came from the Pagans.



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DarkGypsyPirate
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07:27:35 Aug 14 2006
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Here is an interesting web site http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p039.html

It talks about the cross it origins and significance.

What I found interesting coming from a christian background is that there are some some churches that prohibit the use of the cross.


Here is an out line to what it talks about.

Relevant Forms
Non-Christian Crosses
The Greek
The Indians
Bronze Age and Celt
America
China
The Enclosed Sun Cross

The Ankh Cross
The Ankh or Handled Cross
The Ankh in the Mysteries
The Ankh and the Resurrection

The Tau Cross

The Gammate Cross

The Cross in Christianity
Mark of the Cross
The Mystery Systems
The Basic System in the East
Europe
The Asherah
Extended Cross Symbols
The Crucifixion and Symbols

Shamanism and The World Pole
The Adoption of the Tree
Crosses and Trees


 



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SyNtHeTiKxRoMaNcE
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07:29:39 Aug 14 2006
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Wow, thankyou for the site I found it ery interesting. Really, some christain churches prohibit crosseS?



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dmoreton
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08:03:38 Aug 14 2006
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symbols such as the cross are also used in occult rituals.



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Darkfury
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20:36:31 Aug 14 2006
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Yes it is true the cross has been used in the occult it still is even today usually an inverted cross.



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BelovedDarkness
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21:36:21 Aug 14 2006
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My opinion is not going to be well liked, but Im gonna share it anyway.
I personally believe that the cross is the ugliest thing symbol I have ever seen. Not because of its form, but because its the worlds most toughted MURDER WEAPON! Christians say they wear it to remind them of Jesus and God and that there always there for them.
Well, I believe that when friends and family die they are there for you when you need them, just the way Christians believe that God and Jesus are there for them. Two months ago I had a friend get get shot in the head with a 9mm pistol. So should I go out and get gold 9mm pendant and put that on a chain around my neck to remind me about my friend. No, I dont think so, I think Ill just keep the letters he wrote me and the things he gave me to remember him. And for perscibers to the cross, my opinion is, if you need to remember God, read the writings you believe he gave you like letters my friend gave me.
As a vampire, Im surly not scared of a symbol of faith. However, I am disgusted by the sight of it due to my own personal morals.



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darkfarie
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21:47:34 Aug 14 2006
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Thank you for your opinion! I am sorry for your loss and offer my regrets. I am glad you have memories and letters to remember them by. You know I agree with your opinion on the symbolism. To tell you the truth I had never thought of it that way before. I guess I was blinded by all the stupid things attached to it. Thank you for giving me a whole diffrent view on the cross. I value it greatly



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fyrestrike
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21:56:23 Aug 14 2006
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I hate to sound like an ass about this... But christianity has stolen alot of symbols and holidays for that fact... The cross was originally a pagen symbol in reference to the four corners of the earth, NORTH SOUTH EAST AND WEST



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Vashti
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22:02:45 Aug 14 2006
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In order to dispel some of the ignorance that has been touted as truth here, I'm going to point out that the cross is a symbol that belongs to no one. It's just two lines that overlap eachother. Pretty common. It is neither pagan nor christian any more than the X or a circle. These shapes cannot be copyrighted, they are universal. For Christians, the symbol represents the ultimate sacrifice of Christ to save their souls. The reason that the Red Cross uses that symbol is that it was originally a Christian organisation. At the time all charitable organisations were Christian-based because it was the dominant religion in the West. And please, if you don't know anything about a religion, I ask that you not state as truth your own speculation. I do not enjoy having my personal beliefs bashed anymore than anyone else does. Either do some research first or keep it to yourself.



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vmprsamurai
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22:28:30 Aug 14 2006
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I had been thinking of the cross' symbolism a while back in relation to vampires.
I concluded that because vampirism is not limited to any one culture or religion, the cross would have absolutely no effect upon the vampire.
If you can prove my thesis wrong, please send me a message.



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FangedAngel
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23:05:23 Aug 14 2006
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Retribution is the main symbolics of the cross used in Christian beliefs,as it is also a symbol of believing,The Cross symbolizes the retribution of sin by human-god Jesus himself and the promise for eternal life for those who believe in him.In ancient Egypt,a cross called Ankh,was a symbol of eternal life



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paramour
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01:16:29 Aug 15 2006
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...i know it was a common symbol among the native americans to symbolize the four corners.

...about Christians "ripping" off the cross as a symbol: umm...i think it started with the ROMANS when they nailed one particular man to one. the rest is history.

...just like vampire lore and faerie lore and others, every culture has them. i think it is a symbol as old as man. cave men i am sure drew them, as it is a simple design that can mean many things. so, if you are to attribute it to something, i think MANKIND came up with it in a myriad of forms.



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satanicvampyre
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05:58:15 Aug 15 2006
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the cross was adapted by christians because the crusifix is what jesus, the jew, dies on. as was other symbols adapted by others for their own use.



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Demeter
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02:11:20 Aug 16 2006
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Im sorry this isnt much to do with the crosses but the swasicker is a form of the symbol orginal used for chi by the chinese...and not one often used hense not normally reckonised...hilter turn the symbol through 90 degree's. When he did this he destroyed many peoples faith



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darkfarie
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03:21:19 Aug 16 2006
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I agree with the theory that vampires are not afected by the cross. It is a silly myth made up by people to try to protect themselves from the fear of them. Fear of the unknown.

Also I had no Idea about the swastika. I have learned quite a lot through this post!
I guess diffrent symbols mean diffrent things to evreybody no matter what their religion and beliefs.

The symbol of the cross gives some hope while it disgusts others. For some it brings the hope of salvation and to many it means nothing! Interesting. It just goes to show how we are all diffrent and unique. :)



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Kglitterous
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05:03:38 Aug 16 2006
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The germans did not alter the swastika. That is, sort of, a myth. Left handed and right handed swastikas have always existed and are found all over the World. The germans used both left and right handed swastikas. The Nazi's (aryans) used the swastika as proof that humanity started in europe, and that it spread from there to the rest of the world. Suposedly. Can anyone prove me wrong?



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AkashasSpawn
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08:46:46 Aug 16 2006
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For me the cross or any other symbols used by other religions is just simply an elment that adds to the psychodrama of rituals or ceremonies etc. Humans can concentrate more of their energies if they have a solid materialistic thing to concentrate on or think of, but other than that I don't think much more of symbols be it a cross or anything else.



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FelixFelix
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21:24:52 Aug 16 2006
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While the cross isn't 'owned' by any one group, it has been adopted by one of the largest religious denominations as it's defacto symbol. This means that while christians can't copyright the cross or limit it's usage, it is unlikely that 90% of the world population would see a simple cross and not interpret it as a christian symbol.

The fact that the red cross had to alter it's symbol when working in territories where christianity is less popular (the red crecent and more recently the red square) is one example of the cross being given religious connotations when the user isn't necessarily religious in action.

The swastika is another great example of how something with one origin can be adopted and hopeless lost forever to it's new meaning. Even though the Swastika has benevolent beginnings, it's use by the Nazis means that it will forever be associated with them and would be a poor choice for someone to use today if they wanted to portray those earlier ideas to a stranger.

So while the cross has it's origins in time forgotten and was used in the earliest of civilizations, it has come to be synonymous with christianity and until they adopt a new symbol and forsake the old one, or until such time as chrisitanity no longer holds sway as one of the worlds major religions, it will continue to be a symbol of that.



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vmprsamurai
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21:37:25 Aug 16 2006
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(Sorry this has nothing to do with the Cross)
The swastika has been around for thousands of years, and many religions have used it under slightly different names. Asatruar used it, as well as the Indians [no, not Native Amercans]....



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FelixFelix
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22:06:12 Aug 16 2006
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vmprsamurai - That is in fact my point exactly. The swastika is far older than the Nazi movement but that doesn't change the fact that if you go walking around with a swastika tattooed on your forehead, you'll have a tough time convincing anyone that it's actually a Sanskrit svastika ("su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix) or any other ancient meaning (Chinese "wan", English "fylfot", German "Hakenkreuz" or Greek "tetraskelion" or "gammadion"). No people are going to think your a Nazi and that will be that for most.

It is possible for something to be so tainted by one historical use that it's origins can be either forgotten or ignored and that it's meaning will change until some greater use, some truly historical use comes along and replaces it again. This is the case with the swastika and this is the case with the christian cross. While it's history can be maintained and the knowledge of it's past recorded, the basic meaning of it on the average person will remain based on it's most widely used or most historically significant usage.



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genuineblood
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the cross is a symbol that is used in many cultures all over the time.. some were listed some not..

the celtic cross is the first cross used in europe...
the babylonian and assyrian cross have been mentioned to
then the greek and roman cross
then the budist cross which was adopted later by the nazis
the roman cross was adopted by the christians.. neither the jews nor the muslims use a cross though.

i wonder if there was a cross symbol in the southern american countries



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FelixFelix
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There are crosses throughout the buildings and temples in the ancient Americas.

The Incan Cross is called the chakana and is still popular on jewelry and pottery:

Though it might be more familiar like this:


The Mayan Cross is used on carvings depicting the World Tree (most notably in Palenque):


The Aztecs used both the Solar Cross (cross in a circle) and the regular cross and even depicted Quetzalcoatl crucified on a sideways cross (something of an "x):


Native American Indians used everything from the cross to the solar cross to the swastika:



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dariann69
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07:06:43 Aug 17 2006
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The only true symbol the cross hold is the individuals representation of it. Many occult folowers and other forms of religions and what not use it for there own purposes. I strogly believe that it is all in how you decide it shall be used and to what meaning it can give to you



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nightvixen
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10:05:10 Aug 17 2006
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it can be what ever it wants to be, somepeople might think it means peace while for others it means love. and some even turn it upside down so....



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Deaus
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13:14:08 Aug 17 2006
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Wasn't the cross there symbolising christianity because jesus died on one?



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FelixFelix
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18:42:43 Aug 17 2006
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The cross symbolizing the crucifiction of Jesus takes some creative license since the historical belief of the crucifiction apparently didn't involve a 'cross' so much as a "T" shape and that there were crucifiction beliefs and crosses in the early religions that christianity was trying to absorb.



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BroomhildaVonHex
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01:53:32 Aug 18 2006
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what i know is that the cross is a very ancient symbol that has been adopted by a lot of different cultures and religions. The latin cross and the celtic one are barely different, the 2nd one shows a circle around . The 4 arms of the cross represented the 4 elements and the 4 parties (Samhain nov 1, Imbolc feb 1, Beltane may 1 and Lugfhnasadh august 1); the circle, present in the celtic cross represent the energy. For some other it's the Life tree, or the bridge between the human and the divine world, or the link between time and space... that's almost everything i know.... for sure cross wasn't invented by christians, but like the most in that religion it's an ancient symbol they made part of their culture and used it with different meaning.



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karnstein
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02:06:54 Aug 18 2006
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The cross symbol is even pre-keltic, and symbolises the four directions, and so was probably originally tied to movement and migration - possibly free will.

I've always thought it ironic that christians wear a cross - one of the oldest Pagan symbols, whereas Pagans tend to favour a pentacle, which was rarely used by Pagans in ancient times, being more of a Judaic symbol. Christ never used the cross - the symbol he chose was a stylised fish which represented a variation of the Greek letter Alpha.

Can a shape have power in itself, or does the power lay in the belief that people hold in it?



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MizTheAngryDrunkenDwarf
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09:29:16 Aug 18 2006
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In a vision to the Roman Emperor Constantine saw the symbol of the cross (Not quite the modern cross, the symbol was the Chi-Rho, the same symbol that Bill Gates would use for his operating system Windows XP.) with the words "In this sign you will conquer." It is a symbol of conquest. Constantine used it as a symbol to conquer his enemies. Christians would use it later as symbol to show Jesus has conquered death to bring us all eternal life. The power of the cross is unsurpassed, the shape has power in and of itself.



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vmprsamurai
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FelixFelix - Here's some more info: the ancient norse used the swastika under the name of "Mundilfari," to symbolize 'Raw and uncontrolled power, immoderate force, creative but violent, and a God aspect.' The actual symbol, however, was rotated 45 degrees and could be backwards.



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BlkHrtFlame
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17:26:41 Aug 18 2006
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The cross will mean something different to each person. I am Wiccan, and I have a different view on it. Each person is right in what they say because a symbol is open to interpretation.



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Strigocia
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17:34:21 Aug 18 2006
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THE CROSS, if this is what is in question, was never a symobol, at first. It was a torture device--a handy way for Romans to bind people up. The horizontal beam for their arms and the vertical beam for their body. It was only made a symbol when two, now prominant men, where cruxified on it--one upside down and one right side up.


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FelixFelix
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21:32:57 Aug 18 2006
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Strigocia - While I understand your conviction, if you read the above thread, you'll see that the cross WAS in fact a symbol for a very long time before the Romans and before the christian crucifiction. In fact, I believe we've covered almost every continent and it's pre-christian use of the cross...

no wait...Australia - Since the time of the "Dreaming" aboriginal sand pictures have used symbols including the cross which symbolized the 4 elements and man (the center)



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Quessar
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21:37:24 Aug 18 2006
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Everyone has thier own ideas about the cross but i like it simpley as a cross ......



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Strigocia
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22:21:50 Aug 18 2006
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When I said "the cross," and made it bold, I was just speaking of the Christian symbol.

You also have to remember that just about every civilization in antiquity, save the Sumerians to an extent, are the product of assimulation with the civilization before them. Rome invaded the celts, without a doubt cruxifying a few of them... this could be why that symbol is there. (Remember I said "could") Also, Rome is soon assimulated to christianity, swifty spreading this religion, perhaps another force to have that symbol there. (Remeber I said "perhaps") Sorry, I have to remind people some times, because I do often speak in opinions and possibilities.



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FelixFelix
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23:12:56 Aug 18 2006
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Then I misunderstood. I believe that while the crucifiction may have affected other cultures use of the cross, some cultures have always seen it as a symbol of 4 in balance (like the elements or the directions). It's form is so basic that it was likely one of the first true symbols in use.



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Strigocia
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00:13:36 Aug 19 2006
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Oh yes, it surely has ties in pagan cultures. Marking areas of a religious value, pathing a way to God/Goddess of focus, et cetera--these could all be meanings behind it.



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maltese2
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14:49:29 Aug 19 2006
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Ok i know alittle about this. The Iron cross originally started as a pagan symbol of balance. Then it was adopted by the Knights Templar as a sign of brotherhood and its name converted to the maltese cross. From there it became Hitlers Iron Cross which was actually a military decoration and is also used by our own military. Now it is a commercial symbol primary used with motorcycles and tattoo artists.



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Quessar
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15:03:30 Aug 19 2006
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Never really got my point over everyone religous or not has used a cross just about anyway could it be that they just like it also but have attached differant meaning's



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Quessar
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20:40:48 Aug 19 2006
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Of all the religions and faith how about we all put in the earliest known date that a cross has been used ........

Maybe we could track from where it first was used .. Just a thought



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BonesJack
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00:17:56 Aug 20 2006
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ill admit that i dont have much knowledge of the original meaning of the cross or many symbols used in modern religions. i do know that many of them do come from peagan backgrounds (dating farther back than religion itself as original lettering for communication between the neanderthals when they began writing). i do however know that each and every cross does hold its own meaning and purpose. take for instance the crusiform (the cross of all equal sides utilized in the moder world by the red cross and also anciently by the knights templar) it represents equality (as much as ican remember from when learned about it originaly). also take as an example all the different varriations of the celtic crosses, many of them hold no religious annotations what so ever, they are merelly simbols of love, or masculinity, or feminism or what ever else.



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Kglitterous
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03:53:44 Aug 20 2006
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The cross with arms of equal length was common in the neolithic age. The so called Ice Man, a man who died on the top of an Alp pass at 3000 meters about 3200 B.C., had this sign tattooed on one of his legs.



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Jackel
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04:05:19 Aug 20 2006
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the only reason the cross has any thing to do with beliefs is becouse the romans was used on jesus to crusifie him, to put more belief onto him.



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DeathKnightShimitar
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09:58:27 Aug 20 2006
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The cross was used by the Romans to crucify many people before Christ, Satanist use it as a mockery,sailers use it as a good luck charm,the celts used it to warn off the evil spirits...as far as i know the cross itself as symbolism was first used in early navel merchant ships....north-south-east-west.



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darkvampiricangel569
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03:34:57 Aug 25 2006
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i beleive the cross has power. others belive that it only has power if you belive that it has power.



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RabidLama
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04:36:56 Aug 25 2006
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No offence to anyone else, but I find it kinda funny that no one seems to pay attention to Kglitterous' posts since most of them say all the information thats being repeated. Just my .2



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vampiricdeath
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06:36:24 Aug 25 2006
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ok i thought that a cross was a cross but then i bought the one i wear around my neck and never have taken it off i have had a quite a few people tell me that it is a vampiric cross



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CosmicCreepers
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12:54:34 Aug 25 2006
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The cross in the catholic church has obvious meanings (as many of you have stated). I was told that an empty cross necklace symbolises the resurection, while one with Jesus nailed to it is a reminder of Jesus' suffering.

Egyption ankhs - a cross with a closed loop top - symbolise everlasting life.

In addition to what has been said already, the equal armed cross is also the 16th ogham stave, Ailm symbolising clarity and cretion and the "cosmic axis symbol" in its active form.



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BloodJewel
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13:07:03 Aug 25 2006
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Moust storiatour believe that Jesus was not crucified in a cross but yes a stake.



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idbeholda
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13:16:50 Aug 25 2006
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One should not need symbols to strike down an agressor. A simple thought will do.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by STABB666 on Aug 25 2006  •

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