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ThegodLestat
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22:05:53 Apr 21 2008
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legends tell us many things but i want to know what you guys think. who really was the first vampire? whas it caine?lillithe? or are there ones lost in history that you may know




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meeper
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22:12:58 Apr 21 2008
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Might I be so bold as to claim that I was the first vampire?


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Sinora
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22:14:57 Apr 21 2008
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If you want actual facts about vampires, read UpirLikhyj journal......you may learn something of interest.



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ChemicalxReaction
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22:18:48 Apr 21 2008
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Lol, Meeper. Some people would probably believe you too, that's what is sad.



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UpirLikhyj
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22:21:13 Apr 21 2008
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While many claim as vampires such ancient deities as Lilith and Kali, and additionally see "vampires" is just about any mythological creature who rises from the dead and/or has fangs and/or drinks blood... the fact remains that the Slavic Vampire (Upir' / Vampir'), from whence the actual vampire myths originate, is the only TRUE Vampire of history.

And of all Slavic Vampires, the first of all these is indisputably the account of "Upir' Likhyj" (yes... my namesake) from 1047 CE, several centuries before the first vampire legends of Eastern Europe began to be told.


Upir’ Likhyj - The First Vampire in Recorded History

If truth is to be separated from fiction and folklore re: who and what the Slavic "Vampir" truly might have been, would it not serve well to first research the original Slavic accounts thereof? If this is done, it will soon be discovered that the first specific usage of the term "Upir'" (Vampir) in written form occurred in 1047 CE (800 years before Stoker!) and had nothing whatsoever to do with any blood-drinking, fang-wielding, crucifix-fearing, "undead" servant of Satan. Quite the opposite, in fact.

No... the first-ever "vampire" speciifcally mentioned in recorded history was -- as he so declared himself to be -- a bonafide Russian Orthodox CHRISTIAN Priest personally working for Vladimir II of Russia in translating religious texts from Cyrillic into Old Church Slavonic.

In 1047 CE, after transcribing this book of scripture for Vladimir II, this Novgorodian priest wrote in his own hand as follows:

"Glory unto Thee Lord, Heavenly Tsar, that you enabled me to write this book from the Cyrillic for Prince Vladimir, of the Novgorod principality, son of Yaroslav the Great. I began to write in the year 6555 (i.e., 1047 CE), on the 14th of May, and finished the same year, November 19th, I, Father Upir' Likhyj. With this I pray that all will read this prophecy. For great are the marvels written down for us by the prophets in these books. Be healthy, o prince, live forever, but of the one writing this do not forget."


That's right... Father Upir' Likhyj. In other words: Father Vampire... the first actual so-named "vampire," ever... was a mortal, Christian priest !!!




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Sinora
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22:22:09 Apr 21 2008
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I told you so *winks*



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UpirLikhyj
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22:24:59 Apr 21 2008
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Sorry meeper... 'twasn't you. ;)



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TheRat
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22:30:03 Apr 21 2008
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Dang it Meeper, were you Nosferatu's other half?!?



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UpirLikhyj
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22:34:11 Apr 21 2008
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Awww... just realized all that you said, Sinora. Thank you for your kind words and for recommending my journal. :)

There is a lot more info there re: the true first "Vampire" as well as a fairly in-depth discussion as to the etymological origins of both words: Upir' and Likhyj.

Hope some of my research proves helpful!



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meeper
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22:37:46 Apr 21 2008
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You blew my cover!

Oh well at least it isn't a back and forth exchange between me and someone else who claims to be the first. I was battle ready with "no I am" and "because I said so" logic to further my claim.



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Sinora
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22:39:29 Apr 21 2008
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It almost worked Meeper....it did for my Mum anyway lol



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meeper
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22:45:46 Apr 21 2008
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I'll have to practice harder for my next coup or miseducation attempt. The lovely thing about this Internet doohickey is that I could claim to have documents predating the Slavic vampires. Of course I'd never actually show the documents because they’re privileged and not in English anyhow lol



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SeleneTremere
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22:46:23 Apr 21 2008
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Meeper, you could go for 2nd vampire.

I'll temporarily tie UpirLikhyj's hands up so he can't foil your attempts :P



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UpirLikhyj
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22:50:36 Apr 21 2008
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lol... you're alright, meeper, no matter what my Dad says (he's the original "Father Vampire" ya know... hehehe).

Seriously though... what this historical discovery truly reveals is that, as my profile goes into at some length, those we call "vampires" today bore little if any resemblance at all to the true "vampires" as they actually were then and still are today. And the only chance we have of coming as close as possible to understanding who they actually were/are is to investigate the term itself prior to the lies and slanders and vilifications that followed centuries later.



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meeper
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22:58:55 Apr 21 2008
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Upir you have always had some of the most articulated well thought out answers when it comes to historical vampires. It would be remiss of anyone to take my claim instead of your fathers :)



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TLDG
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23:06:16 Apr 21 2008
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Well in hollywood Lestat or what was her name the queen of vampires in that movie was the first lol



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STABB666
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00:16:22 Apr 22 2008
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It is highly unlikely that any real documented 'proofs' can be obtained which are more than a few hundred years old, leaving room only for fiction, supposition, legends, as you say, and a host of theories based on the logical deductions, varied interpretations, or downright misrepresentation of the oldest writings and depictions, such as the Judaic Tanakh and the Christian bible.



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GordSicle
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03:16:21 Apr 22 2008
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caine



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MistressGraveRobber
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05:30:26 Apr 22 2008
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I think meeper was the first vampire. -nod- She seems be the vampy type. =P

But seriously, I think that it was just some rogue with no name.



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Whispersinthewind
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07:08:41 Apr 22 2008
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I do not think it matters anymore about who the first vampire was, or documentation to prove the point. Since anything with or without historical value has been, still is, and will continue to be misconstrude due to literature, movies, media as well as that of which society chooses to teach.

So many histories have been lost, formulated to entertain children, either to scare them at a campfire, or to lull them to sleep.

I stand by Upir's principles regarding his Journal, as it is a very informative read. Such information is usually not at the ready by many through society.

I would not take such knowledge for granted. Gaining knowledge about anything is much better then not knowing what the bloody hell you are talking about throughout a conversation.



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LivNdedGirl
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07:19:47 Apr 22 2008
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i heard the story that when kane slew able ... god cursed kane and that was the birth of the first vampire



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PandorasBx
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07:23:06 Apr 22 2008
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Upir, that was a good read and very interesting. However, a legend is a legend is a .....



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lostallhopetolive
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09:35:45 Apr 22 2008
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Unfortunately the problem is nobody not even the oldest of us can remember the truth of where Vampires truly showed up first was it Kane or Lillith or maybe another we will never truly know but I like to think that the first real vampire’s true origins are a bit of both the Kane and Lillith legend for you know what they say there is no legend that did not start with a little truth



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Pantervamp
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10:45:35 Apr 22 2008
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i thought it was dracula that gived the word vampire.



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NightmareofSin
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13:51:49 Apr 22 2008
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Livingdeadgirl are you talking about Akasha or Pandora?



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Daeva
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14:27:06 Apr 22 2008
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Heh, you must have read Terry Bane's book and I don't agree with it, lol. Meeper you are elected first vampire...I haven't figured out how Lilith bacame known as a vampre really...she comes out of Midrash but was from folklore much older than that and a lot of myths grew up around that. Stoker has nothing to do with real vampires or folklore. Everyone thinks he got all he wrote from Transylvanian lore but it just isn't so. I have an article coming out about all of that. No one knows in all actuality but all the evidence would show it is just hype that people believe and havent really researched the guy but there were vampire stories long before he wrote his and Romania didn't even exist until the late 1800s and Translyvania was not part of it until the 20th Century...there are a lot of anomolies but I don't believe in the one view of things at all because they are looking for a word that is similar to vampire or vampir. This is my opinion and I continue to do my own research. Not that this story is not true but it is so long ago and most things were passed down orally so who knows.



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UpirLikhyj
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14:48:27 Apr 22 2008
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Pantervamp's comment is one of the most common misconceptions re: the origin of the vampire as being "Dracula."

In actuality, the historical Dracula (Vlad Tepes) had absolutely nothing to do with the vampire legend. He was not a vampire any more than was Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun, Adolf Hitler, or any other bloodthirsty ruler.

Like so much about the vampire legend, the current popular image, made famous primarily by Bram Stoker who chose the name "Dracula" only as the very last minute 'cuz he liked the way it sounded, the popular image of the vampire has very little to do with the original accounts from several centuries ago when vampires were depicted not as the fanged bloodsucking "undead," but as supernatural young men possessing an "insatiable" "sexuality" who lured their female "victims" into days and night of sexual feasting resulting in their victims becoming "exhausted and emaciated" from such ... communion.



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SireZombie
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15:00:38 Apr 22 2008
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well some feel it was Vladimir *dracula* was the first I recommend reading the book VAMPIRES by: David J. Skal
published by : Blackdog and Leaventhal

a very very interesting book and reading :)



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MasterEmmanuelo
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16:17:59 Apr 22 2008
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Behind every legend there is always a speck of truth, the more widely spread the legend the more likely it is to be truth.
Legend does sometimes become history, Troy for instance, untill the walls of the city were actually found. The Collective Unconscious holds many things, vampires, for one, the first vampire, who can be certain, Lilith is the most likely candidate



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cadrewolf
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16:48:34 Apr 22 2008
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as Stated above, alot of speculation of who the first is for modern day writing was lost the times before or was passed word to mouth, alot of interesting reading out their to make your own judgement call, whether it was lilith, Caine or vlad, you must make your own analigy.



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LizSara
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17:27:42 Apr 22 2008
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Well i've seen Meeper's privileged documents in another language and she's definitely right



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LadyxOphelia
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02:03:05 Apr 23 2008
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Wow that is great information UpirLikhyj
how did you come by your information?



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MistressGraveRobber
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02:08:16 Apr 23 2008
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Upir -

Although he could be considered more 'vampire' like than the others.



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10241024
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02:20:25 Apr 23 2008
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Their are some ancient writings of vampire like creatures from China, kiang shi and India, Rakshasas that are claimed to be 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Anyone know how these relate to the vampire stories of eastern Europe.



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SITH27
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03:28:24 Apr 23 2008
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legends are of all around,especialy on the vampiric front.....i mean dracula is a legend



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UpirLikhyj
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01:17:41 Apr 24 2008
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In appreciation to all who have inquired as re: the source of my information, I shall be as direct as I can be at this time.

The information found at my profile and in my journal is but a few tip-of-the-iceberg facts discovered at very great personal trial and expense following now more than two decades of deep investigation into both sides and the participants therein of the most ancient war still being fought on this planet.

On the one hand, it involves the long and troubled history of those demonized anciently as the "Fallen Angels," to which bloodline all males belong who naturally possess this singular MRP-free orgasmic capacity that makes all such the true emotional and sensual equals of females. And to which bloodline I, as "the only documented naturally multiorgasmic man" (Playboy Online, 8/98), also belong.

And on the other hand, it has been the result of the careful peeling back, layer by onion-skin layer, the true face of Evil that has forever hunted down and destroyed all males possessing this unlimited sexual... and therefore also emotional... capacity, which they alone are capable of sharing with females and together with them merging wholly with them... becoming One: the ultimate Unity of Love and Fulfillment possible in mortality.

This male capacity equaling finally that of the female, is the true "Dark Gift" for which all those historically vilified and as "fallen angels," as "vampires" and/or as "witches," were demonized, persecuted, tortured, and slaughtered.

As stated so insidiously in the "Witches Hammer" (Malleus Maleficarum - 1484 CE), the manual used by the male clerical sadists in identifying, imprisoning, torturing, and slaughtering primarily females:

"All witchcraft comes from carnal lust, which is in women insatiable."

Here all pretense is dropped and the truth is revealed: it is not for actual "witchcraft" or other claimed supernatural causes that women were so ruthlessly slaughtered by the tens and perhaps even hundreds of thousands... nor is it for being "demonic"... but instead for simply possessing a female's natural multiorgasmic capacity, her natural "insatiable" "carnal lust." The males anciently demonized as the "fallen angels" and more recently as "vampires" were likewise slaughtered for possessing, as recorded in the original Slavic accounts, this exact same "insatiable sexuality."

There is indeed an ancient war out there from the Dawn of Human History. No, it's not between "vampires" and "werewolves" or between supernatural powers seen and unseen... but instead between those who are attempting to right an ancient wrong, a foundationally flawed emotional and sexual rift between Male and Female that has forever kept the two from ever truly joining as One... and those who throughout history have demonized, tortured, and massacred any and all... to prevent it.

As only can one possessing this "Dark Gift," I recognize those on the other side. I have seen the Enemy for what and who they truly are, and unfortunately, being who they are... they have also seen me. More troubling still, as far as I know I'm the only one on the front lines fighting against them and for that Ultimate Equality for all Humankind.

And that... in typical "tip-of-the-iceberg" fashion.. explains a bit further how I know what I know.



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queenofdarkness73
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01:50:15 Apr 24 2008
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I wonder though if there could at one point have been someone else before people actually started to keep track.



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05:05:32 Apr 24 2008
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I thought that dracula was the first vampire then again we will never know the answer to the question



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Lagniappe
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13:04:07 Apr 24 2008
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I don't believe there was a 'first vampire' at all. It surely wasn't Cain, he was just the first murderer.



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Sulky0Uya
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15:29:55 Apr 24 2008
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noferatu was the first vampire



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UpirLikhyj
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17:07:24 Apr 24 2008
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"Nosferatu" was most certainly the first vampire film.

The term itself was recorded for the first time in 1888 by Emily Gerard in her publication "The Land Beyond the Forest" and was simply another name for "vampire" in the localized dialect of a particular area of Transylvania. Vampires were known by a number of names throughout Eastern Europe, including such equally strange-sounding names as Upir', Vapir', Strigoi, Vudkolak and Mullo, to name only a few.



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artemka
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17:55:54 Apr 24 2008
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If you define a vampire as something that chooses to feed on human blood, but not mosquitoes or leeches, my money would be on the Brahmaparusha of Northern India - shown in wall paintings with their head encircled with intestines and drinking from a skull filled with blood - the wall paintings are dated back to around 3,000BC

If you prefer fanged, undead cemetary dwellers, we have the Rakshasas (also of India). They were first described in the indian holy writings the 'Atharva Veda' around 1,500BC

If you narrow your search to the simple word 'vampire' that is now used in english-speaking countries to describe the supernatural creature then you are basically stuck with the Upir which came into use as a vampire before 1262.

After 1262 you have well-documented mentions of blood sucking supernatural creatures called the Vukodlak [vlokodlaci, vorkolak, vârcolac, vrykolaka, vurkolak, vârcolaci and svârcolaci] recorded in a document called a Nomokanon in 1262.

Before the word Upir was used to describe the vampire creature, it was a common peasant's name (around 1495) and before that, it may have been used as a one-off first name by a Russian Orthodox Priest around 1047.

Before that the word Upir was the original name for the tributary of the River Tyne in 43AD.

The 1047 document cannot be seen anywhere, only a typewritten equivalent in modern russian is available - the original document would almost certainly have been written in Old Church Slavonic. We can only guess what the typist was trying to represent when (s)he used the grammatically incorrect ы after x to create the word Лихый which is now even more corrupted by translating it into an english keyboard as Likhyj.

Our noteworthy UpirLikhyj has spent a considerable time researching the various theories and has come down hard on the Russian Orthodox Priest explanation.

There are other explanations by noteworthy academics. The Swedish Slavicist, Anders Sjöberg, states that a priest Öpir Ofeigr would have accompanied Prince Iaroslav’s Swedish Queen with their son, Vladimir (as Prince of Novgorod) when they held court in Novgorod in 1046/7.

It could simply be the guy's name with no connection to supernatural vampires at all - until the original script can be found, anyone's theory is as good as anyone else's.

Following a name backwards and making a connection is never wise. If that logic is followed 'spam' eMail was originally a pork product !!

My own personal theory is that the guy's first name was Upir, and the Лихый [Likhjj] is most likely to be a typo translation for the russian word Лихoй meaning 'swift' which makes more sense in a paragraph to a Prince boasting how quickly he has translated a bible - rather than calling himself 'vampire, evil, wicked' and then carrying on with his nice note.

The question is wide open - it depends on your personal definition of the word vampire and how much physical evidence you need to see.



Sources:

John Sykes, Paper - Historical register of remarkable events, which have occurred in Northumberland
http://www.secretsbg.com/magic/magic.php?num=n6

Franklin 2002, p. 95.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi
=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=botany+upir&spell=1
http://www.textology.ru/drevnost/srp2.shtml
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/paranormal/vampyres/vampire-faq/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic

Collins russian-english dictionary

Anders Sjöberg: Paper Pop Upir' Lichoj and the Swedish Rune-carver Ofeigr Upir 109

John H Lind - VARANGIANS IN EUROPE'S EASTERN AND NORTHERN PERIPHERY The Christianization of North- and Eastern Europe c. 950-1050

http://www.answers.com/topic/ostromir

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11101654

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/paranormal/vampyres
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=upir
+peasants+name&btnG=Search&meta=



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UpirLikhyj
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19:09:51 Apr 24 2008
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Artemka's scholarship on this subject is at least as "noteworthy" as my own and I am most appreciative both for his entry as well as his kind words.

While the name "Upir'" was indeed fairly common by the late 15th Century, it was not so 500 years prior to that when used in this first-ever recorded instance. And as Slavic researchers have fairly unanimously concluded, the term "Upir'," is indeed the word from which our modern term "vampire" is directly derived. Thus, when our eponymously named "Father Upir' Likhyj" appeared on the stage of recorded history, his was the first appearance of this term in history.

As for Artemka's statement that the original 1047 CE document containing this quote is lost to history, this is sadly true as far as we know. This particular statement by the priest was found transcribed by hand, not typed, into the 1499 Gennadiev Bible as a marginalia by an unknown person (click HERE for the specifics regarding this) .

And yes, there is a theory that is supported in certain circles that the Swedish priest mentioned by Artemka might have been the same author of the 1047 CE document. However the evidences are coincidental at best. Whether this priest actually accompanied Yaroslav or not, which is not known, does not forward any evidence that he transcribed the book in question. Additionally, the Orthodox priest Upir' did not transcribe the Bible, but only text of the 12 "minor prophets." His statement that he had finished the book contains nothing that he had considered the transation as having been completed in any unusually "swift" fashion (see my journal entry on "Upir' Likhyj: the First Vampire" for the actual English translation of this 1047 CE statement). Additionally, many scribes worked all over Eastern Europe transcribing and translating scriptures and other noteworthy works during these times (see the movie "The Name of the Rose" for a cinematic interpretation of such times) and thus the specific book translated by Father Upir' could have been done in locations distant from Prince Yaroslav. Thus, there is nothing in the text itself that would indicate that this particular priest was in the present company of the Great Prince Yaroslav, such as is argued was the Swedish priest. What is evident by Father Upir's manner of addressing the Prince is that he was not some lowly monk scribe, but was a man of considerable influence and esteem.

And finally as regards the adjective Лихый, a word that has not existed in the Russian language for hundreds of years and whose meaning is still hotly debated, there are to my knowledge at least two other instances in recorded history and contemporary with the 1047 CE period where this exact same adjective and spelling of same appears. Thus in viewing the context of this word in both of those other instances, we can indeed at least narrow down considerably what the term might have meant in 1047 CE.

In the Prince Yaroslav's "Church Regulations, the term is used in a church regulation that prohibits a married couple from divorce in case of illness unless the illness is "Лихый" such as, specifically "blindness or long illness." This regulation was intended to discourage those who would seek divorce for minor infirmities or illnesses.

As can be clearly seen here, the term "Лихый" could not possibly mean "swift" as neither blindness nor long illness is somehow inherently "swift" nor would such "swift"-ness provide a reason for divorce. What it most likely does mean here is something akin to permanent, intractable, or never-ending. This far better defines an inherent condition of blindness and also of long illness as well as gives more understandable cause for divorce.

HERE is a fair English translation of that webpage.

The other instance were this same adjective appears is not available online that I could find, but refers to an enemy warlord who possessed... if I'm remembering correctly... a "Лихый" determination in combat. Again, the same general meaning applies: never-ending.

It is for this reason that, in the context of Upir' as having originally meant "(sexual) feaster", the adjective thereafter makes perfect sense given also the later depictions of the original vampires of history as being "insatiable (never-ending) sexual feasters"... which is exactly as the original vampire accounts depict them, as possessing an "insatiable sexual appetite."


Understandably, this topic is an absolutely fascinating one and just as controversial, and will be one hotly debated and studied for many many years to come. Hopefully the scholarship of those here for whom this topic has resulted in such in-depth study and investigation will help serve well all others who are likewise so intrigued.



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artemka
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20:01:10 Apr 24 2008
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It is, I agree, a brilliant topic to debate.

I can see the term Лихый as 'swift' applying in the divorce regulations (another typed interpretation of an ancient document): surely they are saying that the illness should be of sudden onset - if you slowly go blind over a period of time, you can't get your divorce - but if you go blind suddenly, you can get your divorce - the same can apply for what turns out to be a long term illness.

I always like to turn my debates to its simplest.

You have a humble priest translating something for a Prince in a very superstitious and brutal age:

Would he really write to a prince saying:

Glory unto you Heavenly Lord, Tsar, that you enabled me to write this book from the Cyrillic for Prince Vladimir, of the Novgorod principality, son of the Great Yaroslav. I began to write in the year 6555, on the 14th of May, and finished the same year, November 19th, I, Priest the evil sexual feaster. With this I pray that all will read this prophecy. For great are the marvels written down by the prophets for us in these books. Be healthy, o prince, live forever, but do not forget the one who writes this.

Wouldn't that have gotten him impaled or something ?

Surely as he is just bragging that he has finished his work in the same year, he would write something like ...

Glory unto you Heavenly Lord, Tsar, that you enabled me to write this book from the Cyrillic for Prince Vladimir, of the Novgorod principality, son of the Great Yaroslav. I began to write in the year 6555, on the 14th of May, and finished the same year, November 19th, I, Priest Upir the swift. With this I pray that all will read this prophecy. For great are the marvels written down by the prophets for us in these books. Be healthy, o prince, live forever, but do not forget the one who writes this.



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artemka
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20:05:50 Apr 24 2008
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Oh and I still go for either the Rakshasas or meeper being the first vampire :D



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UpirLikhyj
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Artemka -

Obviously he would not call himself "Priest evil sexual feaster"... and he did not.

First of all, the word "evil" never appears. And secondly, the term "Upir'" means literally "one who feasts", derived from the root verb, pir': "to feast."

And again, "likhyj" could not have meant "swift" or "dashing" given that this word does not work when applied to the two other 11th and 12th Century recorded instances where this adjective appears. The only synonym that works is something akin to "never-ending."

The exact translation of "Pop Upir' Likhyj" is... literally... "Father feaster never-ending"... which would translate better into our Modern English as "Father insatiable feaster."

In other words... to the uninitiated, this would seem to mean that he was accusing himself of nothing more "evil" than... gluttony. (Lest it be forgotten, according to the New Testament Jesus, himself, was supposedly called a "glutton" as well by his enemies). However, to those who understood the euphemism in Gnostic and even Pagan terms, the "feasting" being spoken of here could just as easily refer to the sexual "orgiastic" feasts common in that day.



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UpirLikhyj
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As an addendum to my earlier post:

For a much stronger connection between the term "feasting" and sex as relates specifically to this discussion, read the Book of Jude in the New Testament.

The entire Book of Jude is a warning against those who had even at that early date entered in and "blemished" the Christian "Agape" (love feasts) with orgiastic sexual activities. In this book, those who had so entered in and turned these "Love Feasts" into sexual orgies were equated with the .... Fallen Angels and their descendants.

Additionally, many Roman historians likewise recorded that the early Christians had made it a practice of meeting for the purpose of sexual feasting together.

Simply search the term "Agape" online and you will find numerous articles and references to the deeply sexual nature of these Christian "Love Feasts."

Thus... again... the term "Upir'", meaning "he who feasts", and from whence was directly derived the modern term "vampire", is first recorded by a Christian priest and which later came to mean "Vampire," which originally were described throughout Eastern Europe as "handsome young men" who possess a super-humanly "insatiable sexual appetite."

And how does one satisfy an "insatiable...appetite" if not through ... never-ending feasting?

;)



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MistressGraveRobber
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03:16:16 Apr 25 2008
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Sulky -

But isn't Nosferatu based on like, on the 18th century?



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artemka
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15:37:25 Apr 25 2008
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UpirLikhyj -

I see where you're coming from, Sir, but as you know from our much enjoyed public and private debates - I am still far from convinced (as always)

I must have misread your post where you said "It is for this reason that, in the context of Upir' as having originally meant "(sexual) feaster"" if he was the first one to use it and that was its original meaning, surely that is exactly what he was saying to the prince .... so, surely, my point stands

Why, if that word is Upir, would it have to be some descriptive term, as opposed to just his name - as it later became a common first name - and then, hundreds of years later, it became used for the supernatural being.

I can't see why a Russian Orthodox priest speaking Old Church Slavonic would start using Greek (I think its greek?) to start to describe his excesses ?

Would you argue that the first Spam eMail was a pork product, or linked to a pork product, simply because the thing happens to have the same name.

The debate rumbles on ...

I must say that, while we cannot agree on many points, it is refreshing to be able to debate on this forum with someone who researches facts, listens, posts supporting material and makes logical points in a clear and informative way



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Neinmortlan
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15:57:53 Apr 25 2008
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If this priest was translating Cyrilic into old church Slavonic, maybe he was educated in Latin as opposed to Greek?



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artemka
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16:06:12 Apr 25 2008
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Neinmortlan that was my point exactly, I am pretty sure that pir is Greek for feasting and, at that time, hadn't been mashed into lots of different words and languages

There are a bunch of other theories right along those lines, that don't hold much water - but, to be fair should also be mentioned in the great Upir debate. Here are a few ...

Franz Miklosich, a late 19th century linguist, suggested that "upir" is derived from "uber", a Turkish word for "witch". Remembering he is considering the use of the word as a description for the supernatural creature

Andre Vaillant suggested just the opposite -- that the Northern Turkish word "uber" is derived from the Slavic "upir".

More recently, Jan Perkowski, who has done a great deal of research on the vampires of the Slavs, also favours a Slavic origin to the word.

None of these people mention where the word Upir came from, apart from the theories offered by Kazimierz Moszynski suggests that "u-pir" is from a Serbo-Croatian word "pirati" (to blow). Aleksandr Afanas'ev points to the Slavic "pij" (to drink), which may have entered the Slavic language from the Greek, via Old Church Slavonic but around the 13th century.

A. Bruckner proposes Russian "netopyr" (bat) as the pyr part of Upir

..... and so on





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Neinmortlan
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17:33:15 Apr 25 2008
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Right? I mean if there's a vampire who predates written history... we'd have little knowledge of 'im



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LadyPatricia
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18:03:25 Apr 25 2008
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I believe that whoever the first vampire may have existed before written language. If that is the case, there is very little chance of us ever knowing who it was.

However, if you go by the first vampire to be recorded, many could argue Lilitu, or Caine, or even Akasha [for all of the followers of Anne Rice's novels].
The truth remains that not everything that is written holds true. And not all truths have been written.

So can we ever truly know who the first vampire was?



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UpirLikhyj
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Great points all... and to answer such requires a far more in-depth discussion into matters both historic, for that area, and linguistic.

First off, any Christian priest involved in transcription and... more to the point... translation would have to have had an extensive knowledge of Greek given that the Christian New Testament was almost exclusively written first (as far as we have been able to discover) in Greek. Thus to translate any of them into other languages, or by extension, from those languages into yet other languages, would have made it very important that the original Greek texts be available and very clearly understood so as to help ensure textual as well as contextual accuracy.

However, as relates to the Greek "pij" and Slavic "pir" verbs, whose meanings are quite different though related, this topic has already been investigated at length by other far more educated persons than those herein opining. In particular, a Ph.D in the field of Slavic languages and as relates directly to the issue of the etymological origins of our modern term "vampire", recently published by far the best treatise on this topic.

In his wonderful book "Slayers and their Vampires," Dr. Bruce McClelland provides a wonderful and in-depth treatise of the origins of our word "vampire" drawing not only from his expertise but also that of other more pre-emminent vampirologists including, perhaps most notably, Dr. Jan Perkowski (author of "Vampires of the Slavs" and "The Darkling).

However before I venture into this, it is first critical that we first dispel a misconception raised regarding name origins that has particular importance to the issue at hand. As we are about to see, while centuries later the word "Upir'" may have become a common name, yet initially it was not a name at all, but instead a term that identified what its appellant did. While on the face of it this might seem strange, yet this is common worldwide.

In English, for example, names like "Taylor," "Smith," "Shoemaker," "Farmer," "Mason," etc., were not originally actual names at all... but instead helped to more correctly identify the possessors thereof in accordance with their trades. Only later did these become common names, as well. So also, the history of other names can be found that identified those ascribed with such names as members not of a particular occupation, but as part of a particular group, be it religious, fraternal, or otherwise.

This is how many names came into being: first, as a moniker to identify a person with his trade, or a group to which he belonged; then later, usually much later, developing into common names.

Okay, with that said, let's read a portion of Dr. McClelland's doctoral thesis, also largely reproduced in an appendix of his recent book "Slayers and their Vampires", as can be found online HERE (for purposes of both brevity and conciseness, I am providing hereafter only certain key excerpts therefrom as relates to this discussion):

"The earliest written reference to the term vampir is also Old Russian, appearing in the margin of a (partially?) Glagolitic text dated to 1047, a reproduction of which was made in 1499. The actual form of the inscription is popú upirü liõy, upir' being the East Slavic variant of South Slavic vampir..."

"...Upirü, then, in all likelihood must have designated a category of human, a member of a group whose attributes we are about to examine. Perkowski is of the opinion that the word vampir consists of two Slavic roots, or at least two morphemes. Furthermore, it is likely that the second term, pir, is the same word that we have encountered elsewhere in our discussion, pertaining to 'feasting' or 'libation.' The Old Slavonic meaning is particularly associated with wedding feasts... "

(NOTE: the Slavic "wedding feasts" of the day contained a strong and Pagan sexually orgiastic element... and additionally, to a Christian of those early times, the term "feast" possessed a far more resonating origin: that of the "Agape" (love feasts) whose very sexual nature was attested to by both Roman historians as well as found strongly alluded to in the Book of Jude as well as in II Peter, Chapter 2, in the New Testament.)

"... The second possibility, vú pirú, is a prepositional phrase, and requires the assumption of some sort of epenthetic nasal [m] between the back reduced vowel [â] [76] and the initial [p] in Bulgarian: vâ pir > vâm pir [77] This compound would mean, presumably 'in (or: into) the feast', vú being a preposition that may be glossed as 'in, into; among'. In this case, a 'vâ-pir', designating a member of a group, might refer to someone who participated in feasting (It is harder to justify the notion that pirú was ever some sort of nomen agentis, such that vâ pir would mean 'he who drinks in', an etymology proposed by Rudnyækyj.)..."

Additionally, and to be fair here, McClelland also here provides his view as to the meaning of the adjective "likhyj", as well. His view, as found in this same thesis, is that this term was a self-denegrating one meaning, essentially, "evil." Though he also admits that we do not know the actual meaning given that the word itself has not been used in several centuries and, like the word "vampire" itself, must have originated meaning something very different from what we might imagine today.

However, as Artemka argued correctly earlier, and as I also pointed out to Dr. McClelland, no Christian priest no matter how humble or self-denegrating in character would ever call himself... "evil." To do so would be to jeopardize not only his position and his priesthood by so demonizing himself, but might in fact subject him to excommunication and perhaps even death as a heretic for so confessing himself to be.

The fact is that just as Dr. McClelland's opinioin that the word "likhyj" meant "evil" is just as much a guess as is Artemka's view that it means "swift." Both translations are based upon the best-guess estimates using words in modern Russian that are the most homophonic with "likhyj." Again... I go back to my original argument that the only way we can arrive at any probable definition is to see how this particular adjective was used contemporary with its 1047 CE usage. And as I have stated, the only synonym that works perfectly and in context is a word synonymous with: intractable, never-ending, permanent, long-lasting, unstoppable, and/or incurable, even.

*Whew!* Aren't ya all glad that's done?!

;)



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UpirLikhyj
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20:31:33 Apr 25 2008
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Anyway... to summarize the above:

According to both McClleland and, by extension, Perkowski, the first usage of the word from whence our modern word "vampire" directly derives is the 1047 CE usage of the term: "Upir'"

Moreover, as McClelland explains, the verb "pir" is derived from the Slavic (not Greek) verb for "to feast" and the term itself, "Upir'" most likely meant someone who participated in feasting.

Now... is this the ONLY possibility? No. McClelland gives two other possibilities for what "Upir'" most likely meant, the third of which he feels is more applicable and in accordance with his own theory of the vampire as an "outsider" and a participator in in pagan sacrifice rituals. However, this conclusion... as he and I have argued about extensively... makes little sense when compared with the original Slavic accounts of vampirism in which the only two common elements are both "insatiable sexuality" and the scapegoat element of vampires as spreaders of disease (Nosferatu=plague carrier).

As I have argued extensively here, as well, no connection to blood drinking or even blood in general was made with the "vampire" until centuries later when it became popular to dig up corpses and what they supposed was fresh blood was found around the mouths and inside the body cavities of the cadaver therein interred.

Thus... the blood connection was a far later one and resulted only from medical ignorance and had absolutely nothing to do with "vampires" as they then were experienced and had absolutely nothing at all do to with sacrificing either by libation or actual blood sacrifice to pagan gods, as McClelland contends.

And finally, McClelland could not respond nor rebut in any way my continual argument that if his theory were the correct one.... why was it that the strongest component of the original Slavic vampire, the most identifying characteristic he possessed (namely, his "insatiable sexuality" that had him "victimizing" women through "nonstop sexual activity" until they became "exhausted and emaciated"), why was this key trait above all others completely absent and left both ignored and unexplained in his (McClelland's) theory of the vampire as a pagan sacrificer?

To this he had and still has provided... no reply.





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artemka
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21:03:54 Apr 25 2008
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or it could still be just the guy's name ....

:D



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MistressGraveRobber
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22:11:23 Apr 25 2008
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Nein, if there were a vampire that pre-dated written history I don't think anything would be known of them.



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artemka
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22:48:40 Apr 25 2008
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Singularity,

I think Neinmortlan mentioned written history.

I have mentioned a blood drinking supernatural being (the Brahmaparusha) shown in wall paintings from around 3000BC which some might consider a vampire race. I believe that this might pre-date writing.

It is a fascinating subject which can be as narrow or as broad as you like, the only thing I would recommend is researching it in books not the internet

The internet does tend to simply copy a single reference, so you think you have a hundred references on a subject when , in fact, you have a hundred copies of one reference which might have been wrong in the first place

With internet references, you also have to be wary of hoaxes. A while back a short-lived member here submitted a database entry for the 'prolander script' said to quote the word "vampir" on paper fragments dated 944 AD before the 1047 Upir script, it seemed too good to be true - it was there on wikipedia and spreading through the internet as 'fact' - it also predated paper and was nothing more than a hoax, exposed by vampirerave. It is still doing the rounds on the internet though ... never, ever rely on the internet without checking its sources



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MistressGraveRobber
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22:50:37 Apr 25 2008
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I guess I must have missed at. But I was just refering to his last post.

Sorry bou' that.



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artemka
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22:52:53 Apr 25 2008
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Singularity no problem at all,

it is nice to find anyone that is taking the trouble to actually read the content of members contributions

:)



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10241024
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17:54:10 Apr 26 2008
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I have to congratulate both UpirLikhyj and artemka on their well researched comments.



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blackreaper
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22:19:02 Apr 26 2008
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i believe it's not truly known yet who the first was. there is a cave drawing they have not yet found that will reveal the true first. that' just my thought.



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GordSicle
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22:38:53 Apr 26 2008
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but where did the very first vampire even come from? what caused this person to become a vampire?



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juanaldamuy
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If you didn't catch the answer to the question then back up to UpirLikhyj's first response and continue to read his additional comments. I am impressed



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jahlovleyone
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23:44:35 Apr 26 2008
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I am not a historian. I only know of Vlad the impaler. Was considered by some to have been a vampire. I do believe this information given by Likhyj. " That's right... Father Upir' Likhyj. In other words: Father Vampire... the first actual so-named "vampire," ever... was a mortal, Christian priest !!!" Great point!



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